It’s nice to see everyone off garganacl suspect train. Yay!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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we have bigger fish to fry tbh, Garganacl is extremely irrelevant atm
Alolatales, Veil, to me it doesnt matter, I personally think Baxcalibur is broken or suspect test worthy if Veil or Tales is here or not, so I think that shoukd be voted on or acted on regardless of the Fox discussion. As for Manaphy, I think its incredibly amped by Veil, so a look at Veil, Lihht Clay or ATales imo would be more prudent one might feel. But the thing is, outside of Bax who we know is broken regardless of Veil, and Manaphy who we believe is broken because of Veil (other factors contribute heavily ofc but Veil is the nail in the coffin imo), nothing immediately jumps out as clearly broken yet, so would it make more sense to ax those two, see how the tier evolves then take a step back and see if ATales or Light Clay needs addressing. Ofc this probably shouldnt happen til around day 5 or so, I think at lesst 5 days ought to pass before anything needs addressing (we are on Day 3 iirc).
gliscor is still ou-worthy. even without roost, it's healing 1/4 every 2 turns, which is nothing to sneeze at, and it gets both forms of spikes now. i still believe that we can get lando-t down to uu this gen if we really try
Gliscor
"We thought Landorus was dropping to UU lmao."
I say this with sincerity, I have never seen such a fall from grace. Not only did they nerf recovery moves, they removed Roost from Gliscor and attempted to substitute it with the empty promise of coverage. Nothing disappoints me more than a longstanding OU staple being disgraced by a receding movepool; it's effectively a worse Ting-Lu.
Tbh, surrounding the conversation of banning Aurora Veil or Light Clay. Isn't the whole big thing with banning moves/items that they have to prove to be broken on multiple users? I fail to see how either of these are broken on their own without Ninetales-A, it definitely just seems like it's ease of setting them as well as it's speed and utility covering as an insane setter.
I'm interested in seeing why we'd ban anything other than Ninetales-A (if we do look into veil in some way), other options just seem to me like an attempt to complex ban Ninetales because they like using it.
I'm interested in seeing why we'd ban anything other than Ninetales-A (if we do look into veil in some way), other options just seem to me like an attempt to complex ban Ninetales because they like using it.
this is partially my thought on it too, but i can see light clay going because screens in general have been the driving force behind some really heinous shit this gen
Respectfully, I dont know how you can argue Gliscor fell from grace and then say Rilla is back. Grassy Glide is severely nerfed and it isn't unnoticeable. It really shows and often forces it to tera to make up the difference. Still faces the same issues as last gen with hazards only much worse and it ooses badly to all manner of poison and flyer. Rilla is usable, but it's overall majorly underwhelming.
Rillaboom and Tornadus
"Aaannnddd we're back."
With the reintroduction of Knock Off and Grassy Glide, Rillaboom and Tornadus are back in OU. While they received some significant nerfs (Grassy Glide nerf and Defog loss), neither have been disqualified from OU and will continue to do well. I'm personally very excited to see both return to OU after being briefly dispatched to UU, and will be anticipating a lot of creative shenanigans thanks to Tera.
And I really don't agree with Gliscor. Yeah no roost sucks, but protect is more than serviceable as a form of sustain when you're healing off of toxic heal. It's not worse Lu especially when it has a ground immunity, status immunity and access to taint and toxic. And knock off.
I hate to be on the side of partiality but I agree with this. Ninetales-Alola is supporting a heinous playstyle right now and it's really annoying. However, it's obvious we need to remove the broken abusers before we touch Nintales-Alola. Stuff like Baxcalibur, Hearthflame, and Manaphy need to go before we can think about putting dampers one screens because these three are the majority of the reason we're having this issue to begin with. I think it would be very foolish to put the cart before horse here.
^This. A9T has done this in other versions with underwhelmingly mons. Deal with the other stuff and then visit light clay if need be.
I think Atales should be looked at for a ban/suspect test over veil, we've seen Abomasnow and it wasn't even ever good, just a niche option. Veil is only broken on ninetales specifically because it has high speed and snow warning.
Same with Light Clay. Abomasnow, Dragapult, Grimmsnarl ect. were never broken besides when pokemon broken on their own without screens abused them like Flutter Mane and Chien Pao.
Same with Light Clay. Abomasnow, Dragapult, Grimmsnarl ect. were never broken besides when pokemon broken on their own without screens abused them like Flutter Mane and Chien Pao.
I must admit to being baffled at this seemingly universal agreement that Manaphy is busted. How have the surroundings changed so much from gen 7 that it's now busted? It's a stall and balance breaker that struggles against offence and oh would you look at that, offence is king this generation. It's incredible on webs (everyone runs boots) and loves z-moves (lol).
Is it tera? Ah yes, finally it can tera out of its famously awful defensive typing: Pure water.
It's very good on screens. Every setup sweeper is good on screens. It's not like it hasn't existed alongside Alolatails before. If something has changed, it's not Manaphy, it's Alolatails. Snow boosting its defence, the complete lack of defog due to Gholdengo, hail not chipping your own team. If there's a problem, it's with Alolatails
Is it tera? Ah yes, finally it can tera out of its famously awful defensive typing: Pure water.
It's very good on screens. Every setup sweeper is good on screens. It's not like it hasn't existed alongside Alolatails before. If something has changed, it's not Manaphy, it's Alolatails. Snow boosting its defence, the complete lack of defog due to Gholdengo, hail not chipping your own team. If there's a problem, it's with Alolatails
Haven't play too many games but so far I really haven't found manaphy to be too OP, at least not yet. Tail glow isn't fast enough imo and easily revenge killed. Getting the free turn to setup is not the easiest from what ive seen from my opponents. Have not faced Take Heart but I think that one could be OP with Acid Armor to jack up stored power and Take Heart to get rid of status. Likely needs some time before a conclusion can be reached imo.
I think that vanilla Ogerpon is very potentially underrated as long as you’re willing to commit to a team that can usually afford to Tera it. A passive +1 speed every time it comes in is SUPER strong and is really the selling point of base Ogerpon, not its free item slot. I think that you’d probably get the most use out of Choice Band on it since with Tera it gains nuclear strength and insane speed with no need for setup.
So basically Gen 8 Rillaboom on crack?
oh gee, i wonder how the changes since gen 7 have benefited manaphy. could it be the extra boost that tera water grants it, especially under rain? or possibly the distinct lack of ferrothorn, one of its most splashable checks in the past? maybe because chansey and blissey are way harder to justify slotting onto a team? the existence of heavy-duty boots, which allow pelipper to come in much more easily to set up rain? the decreased viability of toxapex making it easier to swap out psychic for something like energy ball or rest? the nonexistence of mantine? the dexiting of some of its best revenge killers, such as tapu koko and kartana? oh, what could have possibly changed to push manaphy over the edge?
You know this does not happen
What the actual fuck is this sentence.
No, seriously, what the hell. This is basically stating that skill should not be a factor in our voting process while attempting to enforce an arbitrary standard that is not quantifiable. Reconsider your wordsmithing for the love of god.
you know what else doesn't happen? manaphy not getting banned. half its switch-ins are gone and the other half aren't really switch-ins. whenever the meta produces something to handle it, it'll just start running a new set with a tera type that lets it beat that too
You know half of these are nonsense. Heavy duty boots Pelipper is a lol. Sun and snow are far better and more prevelant now than gen 7, interfering with rain. "It can tera into its own type" applies to literally every offensive mon. Mantine was a highly niche pick for defensive teams.
The argument that all the best checks got dexited is interesting though. A rare case of a mon thriving due to certain meta nerfs rather than the usual case of mons struggling due to power creep
sure it is
yeah, and manaphy is still broken. hell, half the reason it's broken is because of how much more prevalent snow is; it can set up multiple times behind veil so easily that sets on veiltales teams can afford to run the wacky new take heart move over tail glow
and it didn't apply in gen 7. you asked what changed since gen 7 to break manaphy, tera's one of those things
which doesn't change the fact that it was undeniably one of manaphy's best answers. not as splashable as ferrothorn or mega latias, but there was virtually nothing manaphy could do against a well-played mantine
All of this is reminding me that we're getting another 27 TMs in DLC2 alongside a bunch of new and returning lines, meaning that that we only have two-three months to sort all this chaos out before it all goes to hell again.
Yea, it's weird that this format already has a bit of a lame duck feel and it's only a couple days old. On that note, I am curious what the shortest between major additions to a format is. If memory serves Bank and Home went live a few months after Gens 6 and 8 so those are also probably short lived.
Here's my thoughts on the DLC as a whole rn:
I started playing yesterday because I was busy with Teraless OU and NPA 1v1 tours when it actually dropped but here's everything I think about the DLC so far.
In terms of games played, I made an account last night and did a lot of teambuilding and testing (thanks Vkhss Mario34), so far I am 35-1 with a GXE on my alt zamazwag and I'll keep laddering until I hit a new peak ig, theres a few teams I have used and I will share them all at the end of this post
(update: its now 39-1)
I have noticed a lot of discussion both in the OU room and on forum discussions regarding Alolan Ninetales and Aurora Veil, and their impact on the metagame. Personally I see this being a very similar situation to screens at the beginning of Pokemon Home; with the influx of new Pokemon unleashed into the OU metagame, it is only natural to see people combining broken setup sweepers and putting them under screens, making mons such as Baxcalibur (which gets a 1.5x defence boost in hail) almost unkillable. In my opinion, I believe Ninetales and Light Clay in general should be closely monitored, as being able to set up both reflect and light screen in one turn is insanely oppressive, and when combined with Ninetales' extraordinary 348 speed and access to great utility moves such as Encore and Hypnosis, as well as a great move pool in Freeze-Dry, Blizzard and Moonblast, it truly becomes a force to be reckoned with. Honestly I do think this whole issue lies heavily on Baxcalibur, which I will go over shortly, but for now I think it should be monitored and there shouldn't be any actions against it for now as people adapt and the metagame evolves.
With the addition of Scale Shot to Baxcalibur's movepool, I believe this pseudo-legendary is in the best spot it has ever been throughout gen 9. With the support of Aurora Veil and Ninetales' hail, many teams have been abusing Baxcalibur's amazing bulk coupled with its sweeping potential. Before the DLC, Baxcalibur suffered from 4 move syndrome; if it was to run its more powerful SD set, it would be stuck on 300 speed and was either forced to run Ice Shard and neglect the stronger Icicle Crash or Spear, or drop Glaive Rush or Earthquake entirely and run double ice coverage. Alternatively, Baxcalibur would run a Dragon Dance set, which was much weaker and often outsped by Booster Energy mons, such as Iron Valiant or Iron Moth. Baxcalibur only being able to get a +1 meant it was unable to OHKO Kingambit unless it tera grounded, which was a massive investment and a detrimental common interaction between the two mons. Fast forward to DLC, and now Baxcalibur has the ability to run its SD set for instant and brutal power, however with the addition of Scale Shot, it no longer had to worry about its speed, since it pretty much had both a Dragon Dance and SD built into its moveset. Not only that, the item Loaded Dice would make Baxcalibur's Scale Shots and Icicle Spears hit 4 or 5 times, a much greater DPS than previously. Under hail and veil, this mon's sweeping power would become almost unstoppable, and this alone made teambuilding very difficult as many teams now had to adapt to this inherently broken Hail + Screens Baxcalibur; don't even get me started when Baxcalibur turns into a different type. Personally, I have not had much issue with Baxcalibur during my climb thanks to the use of Balloon Gholdengo and Water Kingambit, which were both solid counters to the majority of Baxcalibur tera types and sets. However, this does not change the fact that the mon is way too oppressive for the metagame right now and often requires the opponent to expend Tera or sacrifice many mons just to kill it. I strongly believe Baxcalibur deserves a suspect (NOT A QUICKBAN PLEASE) as it is very hard to accomodate for the Ninetales- Baxcalibur core when teambuilding.
Look I'm going to be honest I really think this mon is underwhelming right now. The amount of Ogerpons there are right now (which all outspeed Manaphy) make playing Manaphy almost impossible since you have to tera to rid yourself of your grass weakness to avoid getting revenged. Sure tail glow is a very good move since you get a +3 instantly however to do that and not be forced to switch out because you are threatened by a Kingambit sucker or an Ogerpon Power Whip or idk literally ANYTHING that is faster than manaphy - I think this mon is very niche despite all the "Manaphy is OP" talk I have seen recently. Under screens however, this mon is very good and its lacklustre speed is compensated by the bulk it gets from the screens, but it any Ogerpon (which I think has like 80% usage rn) can do 70% it even under screens which leaves it to get revenge killed by anyone the next turn anyways lmao.
Clefable is a very interesting one. I believe the best Clefable set right now is probably Magic Guard with Rocks Wish and Moonblast. The biggest issue with Clefable is the fact that it lost Soft-boiled, which is a massive nerf since in weather such as Rain and Hail (very prominent rn), it is only able to heal 25% which is very bad. As a result of this, Clefable is now forced to run Wish Protect, which heavily limits its movepool. I have experimented with Trick Sticky Barb Clefable which could be good on balance teams, however I think Clefable as a whole is pretty mid rn. It has very good utility such as T-wave, Wish, Knock and rocks, which makes it a great pick on balance and fatter teams, however it is very slow and its pure fairy typing is just Kingambit food. The Ogerpons also heavily threaten Clefable as they are able to SD and kill the Clef if it is magic guard, or use Clefable to gain tempo and momentum if it is unaware. Clefable being Unaware right now is very bad since it is prone to the now widespread knock off, consequently making it take hazards every time it comes on, which hurts its longevity badly.
I was initially very excited upon hearing the news that Rillaboom was able to regain Grassy Glide, however after it was shown that Grassy Glide had been nerfed to a measly 55 BP, it was nothing more than a disappointment. Rillaboom has a very awkward max speed of 295, which makes it slower than most offensive threats but fast enough to kill mons like Gholdengo. Unfortunately due to the Glide nerfs I don't think that Rillaboom will have the necessary power to utilise an offensive SD or Band set with the heavily decreased power unless it tera grasses, however there are a lot of Baxcaliburs and Fire Ogrepons around as well as Kingambits so I think Rillaboom will go back to being a niche terrain setter.
Ogrepon forms: Oh boy this mon is a meta changer for sure. I personally really love playing all the forms, and I think they are all in a great state right now maybe with the exception of Fire but I will talk more about that later.
The thing will all Ogrepon forms are that they have insanely good move pools. The coverage is crazy - there is Play rough for dragons, knock for ghost types, Superpower, tantrum for heatran and other fires for Fire-pon etc. All forms have crazy good speed tiers, with 350 being very solid for an offensive mon and enough to outspeed the majority of offensive threats bar booster energy abusers and new gen starters. However the real deal starts when they terastallize.
Personally I believe that all Ogrepon forms are balanced right now, including fire. After the discovery of the 1.2x bonuses on those mons, everyone was freaking out and saying how op these masked creatures were going to be. This is why I think they are fine FOR NOW
1. All Ogrepon forms are surprisingly squishy. This makes them all relatively easy to revenge kill with priority, such as Ice Shard, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch etc. Just for reference, a Kingambit is able to do over 50% just after 1 fainted. That shows how squishy the mon is (252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
2. Despite its good speed stat of 350, the amount of Booster Energy Pokemon, as well as scarfers and some starters (meow, gren) makes this mon easy to revenge kill as well through speed.
3. To unleash its real potential, Ogrepon is forced to tera. Considering how valuable tera is in each game as it can quite literally flip the outcome of a match, you have to tera just to gain the 1.2x boosts to every move and the extra stats, such as Attack and SpDef from Fire and Water Ogerons respectively.
4. Ogrepon is item locked. You could argue that this is a good thing, as Ogrepon is immune to knock off and trick, however I believe in the case of Ogrepon this is actually very detrimental, as you are unable to run a Choice Band or boosting item. As a result of this, Ogrepon will also take heavy hazard damage that cannot be prevented by boots, which is especially bad on Ogrepon-Fire, since it takes 25% every time it comes in. Despite the intrepid sword boost it gets from teraing, the pressure of being forced to manage hazards as well as being unable to run any potentially better items on the mons makes this balanced.
5. Ogrepon is tera locked. Pretty self explanatory, there is no such thing as surprise Teras on this mon lmao, when you tera you become a mono rock/fire/water typing, which are all pretty shit imo. Its the 1.2x move boosts as well as stat boosts which makes this possibly worthwhile.
Alternatively, you could use the pure grass Ogrepon form, but I believe that form is completely trash since grass on its own is a terrible typing defensively and offensively, and you don't get the 1.2x boost on your other moves since you are lacking a mask, only a measly 1.5x speed boost.
Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Munkidori, Sinistcha - I will have to experiment more on these mons but from facing off against them I think they are pretty mid with the exception of maybe Okidogi. Fezandipiti has bad stat distributions and its typing and moves make it really underwhelming, the only interesting use of the mon ive seen so far is a SpDef tank with beat up toxic chain, but I just don't see this mon being good. Munkidori on the other hand looks really nice however its forced to tera out of its abysmal defensive and offensive typing or else it just gets revenged by Gambit or literally any ground type. Sinistcha is just terrible, the fact it didn't get Shell Smash is really unfortunate imo.
I versed one guy and he hit me with 7 flinches in a row with scarf jirachi, I just had to put this here 
Teams I have been using to great success:
https://pokepast.es/9096dba41f30fd2e
I am still laddering and I wont stop until I am rank 1 most likely, however this team has been working wonders in OU room tournaments and higher ladder. Tornadus having access to knock and a more accurate hurricane is amazing, and its been doing great removing the boots and items of everybody thanks to its great speed. Chilling Water Clefable with wish pass is just good in general, helping the rest of the team stay alive whilst being a good tank against the Ogrepon forms. The rest of the team are pretty self explanatory, with boots Zama being a great attacker in general with amazing coverage moves, as well as Dondozo to help with the Kingambit and Baxcalibur matchups.
https://pokepast.es/594b2efd5faff415 Rain team, worked well for low ladder
https://pokepast.es/693f8f1febd180ed
Ogrepon-Wellspring
This is my main team for laddering and I have almost never lost with this team since I started playing. Personally I believe glimmora HO is infinitely more consistent and better for climbing than screens cheese, the synergy in this team is very great and it has answers to practically anything.
For people asking why I am hypnosis Iron-Valiant, I have been absolutely loving this set recently and I think it is worth a try. The inspiration originally came from prep vs Akalli in my teraless OU semifinals game, since Iron Valiant is walled by stuff like Amoonguss, Zapdos and Toxapex, it is very difficult to break. However if I am able to put those threats to sleep I am able to get another Calm Mind which completely turns the tide of things, since a mon that I am unable to break 100% of the time has suddenly become a possibility to break 60% of the time, sometimes resulting in a sweep. This also works well against Kingambits if I tera electric, they always click sucker and I can put them to sleep for free, resulting in funny rage quits like this one.
Ogrepon-Wellspring is my personal favourite out of the forms, sure Fire gets a free intrepid sword but I believe having to take 25% every time you come in on offensive teams is bad, and having a Water-Grass-Fairy coverage is crazy good and more consistent than Fire-Grass and Fighting/Fairy/Ground.
Lmk your thoughts on this DLC, this is definitely one of my fav meta games of Gen 9 so far. I will most likely RMT the team in the near future
I started playing yesterday because I was busy with Teraless OU and NPA 1v1 tours when it actually dropped but here's everything I think about the DLC so far.
In terms of games played, I made an account last night and did a lot of teambuilding and testing (thanks Vkhss Mario34), so far I am 35-1 with a GXE on my alt zamazwag and I'll keep laddering until I hit a new peak ig, theres a few teams I have used and I will share them all at the end of this post
I have noticed a lot of discussion both in the OU room and on forum discussions regarding Alolan Ninetales and Aurora Veil, and their impact on the metagame. Personally I see this being a very similar situation to screens at the beginning of Pokemon Home; with the influx of new Pokemon unleashed into the OU metagame, it is only natural to see people combining broken setup sweepers and putting them under screens, making mons such as Baxcalibur (which gets a 1.5x defence boost in hail) almost unkillable. In my opinion, I believe Ninetales and Light Clay in general should be closely monitored, as being able to set up both reflect and light screen in one turn is insanely oppressive, and when combined with Ninetales' extraordinary 348 speed and access to great utility moves such as Encore and Hypnosis, as well as a great move pool in Freeze-Dry, Blizzard and Moonblast, it truly becomes a force to be reckoned with. Honestly I do think this whole issue lies heavily on Baxcalibur, which I will go over shortly, but for now I think it should be monitored and there shouldn't be any actions against it for now as people adapt and the metagame evolves. With the addition of Scale Shot to Baxcalibur's movepool, I believe this pseudo-legendary is in the best spot it has ever been throughout gen 9. With the support of Aurora Veil and Ninetales' hail, many teams have been abusing Baxcalibur's amazing bulk coupled with its sweeping potential. Before the DLC, Baxcalibur suffered from 4 move syndrome; if it was to run its more powerful SD set, it would be stuck on 300 speed and was either forced to run Ice Shard and neglect the stronger Icicle Crash or Spear, or drop Glaive Rush or Earthquake entirely and run double ice coverage. Alternatively, Baxcalibur would run a Dragon Dance set, which was much weaker and often outsped by Booster Energy mons, such as Iron Valiant or Iron Moth. Baxcalibur only being able to get a +1 meant it was unable to OHKO Kingambit unless it tera grounded, which was a massive investment and a detrimental common interaction between the two mons. Fast forward to DLC, and now Baxcalibur has the ability to run its SD set for instant and brutal power, however with the addition of Scale Shot, it no longer had to worry about its speed, since it pretty much had both a Dragon Dance and SD built into its moveset. Not only that, the item Loaded Dice would make Baxcalibur's Scale Shots and Icicle Spears hit 4 or 5 times, a much greater DPS than previously. Under hail and veil, this mon's sweeping power would become almost unstoppable, and this alone made teambuilding very difficult as many teams now had to adapt to this inherently broken Hail + Screens Baxcalibur; don't even get me started when Baxcalibur turns into a different type. Personally, I have not had much issue with Baxcalibur during my climb thanks to the use of Balloon Gholdengo and Water Kingambit, which were both solid counters to the majority of Baxcalibur tera types and sets. However, this does not change the fact that the mon is way too oppressive for the metagame right now and often requires the opponent to expend Tera or sacrifice many mons just to kill it. I strongly believe Baxcalibur deserves a suspect (NOT A QUICKBAN PLEASE) as it is very hard to accomodate for the Ninetales- Baxcalibur core when teambuilding. Look I'm going to be honest I really think this mon is underwhelming right now. The amount of Ogerpons there are right now (which all outspeed Manaphy) make playing Manaphy almost impossible since you have to tera to rid yourself of your grass weakness to avoid getting revenged. Sure tail glow is a very good move since you get a +3 instantly however to do that and not be forced to switch out because you are threatened by a Kingambit sucker or an Ogerpon Power Whip or idk literally ANYTHING that is faster than manaphy - I think this mon is very niche despite all the "Manaphy is OP" talk I have seen recently. Under screens however, this mon is very good and its lacklustre speed is compensated by the bulk it gets from the screens, but it any Ogerpon (which I think has like 80% usage rn) can do 70% it even under screens which leaves it to get revenge killed by anyone the next turn anyways lmao. Clefable is a very interesting one. I believe the best Clefable set right now is probably Magic Guard with Rocks Wish and Moonblast. The biggest issue with Clefable is the fact that it lost Soft-boiled, which is a massive nerf since in weather such as Rain and Hail (very prominent rn), it is only able to heal 25% which is very bad. As a result of this, Clefable is now forced to run Wish Protect, which heavily limits its movepool. I have experimented with Trick Sticky Barb Clefable which could be good on balance teams, however I think Clefable as a whole is pretty mid rn. It has very good utility such as T-wave, Wish, Knock and rocks, which makes it a great pick on balance and fatter teams, however it is very slow and its pure fairy typing is just Kingambit food. The Ogerpons also heavily threaten Clefable as they are able to SD and kill the Clef if it is magic guard, or use Clefable to gain tempo and momentum if it is unaware. Clefable being Unaware right now is very bad since it is prone to the now widespread knock off, consequently making it take hazards every time it comes on, which hurts its longevity badly. I was initially very excited upon hearing the news that Rillaboom was able to regain Grassy Glide, however after it was shown that Grassy Glide had been nerfed to a measly 55 BP, it was nothing more than a disappointment. Rillaboom has a very awkward max speed of 295, which makes it slower than most offensive threats but fast enough to kill mons like Gholdengo. Unfortunately due to the Glide nerfs I don't think that Rillaboom will have the necessary power to utilise an offensive SD or Band set with the heavily decreased power unless it tera grasses, however there are a lot of Baxcaliburs and Fire Ogrepons around as well as Kingambits so I think Rillaboom will go back to being a niche terrain setter.Ogrepon forms: Oh boy this mon is a meta changer for sure. I personally really love playing all the forms, and I think they are all in a great state right now maybe with the exception of Fire but I will talk more about that later.
The thing will all Ogrepon forms are that they have insanely good move pools. The coverage is crazy - there is Play rough for dragons, knock for ghost types, Superpower, tantrum for heatran and other fires for Fire-pon etc. All forms have crazy good speed tiers, with 350 being very solid for an offensive mon and enough to outspeed the majority of offensive threats bar booster energy abusers and new gen starters. However the real deal starts when they terastallize.
Personally I believe that all Ogrepon forms are balanced right now, including fire. After the discovery of the 1.2x bonuses on those mons, everyone was freaking out and saying how op these masked creatures were going to be. This is why I think they are fine FOR NOW
1. All Ogrepon forms are surprisingly squishy. This makes them all relatively easy to revenge kill with priority, such as Ice Shard, Extreme Speed, Sucker Punch etc. Just for reference, a Kingambit is able to do over 50% just after 1 fainted. That shows how squishy the mon is (252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 165-195 (54.8 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO)
2. Despite its good speed stat of 350, the amount of Booster Energy Pokemon, as well as scarfers and some starters (meow, gren) makes this mon easy to revenge kill as well through speed.
3. To unleash its real potential, Ogrepon is forced to tera. Considering how valuable tera is in each game as it can quite literally flip the outcome of a match, you have to tera just to gain the 1.2x boosts to every move and the extra stats, such as Attack and SpDef from Fire and Water Ogerons respectively.
4. Ogrepon is item locked. You could argue that this is a good thing, as Ogrepon is immune to knock off and trick, however I believe in the case of Ogrepon this is actually very detrimental, as you are unable to run a Choice Band or boosting item. As a result of this, Ogrepon will also take heavy hazard damage that cannot be prevented by boots, which is especially bad on Ogrepon-Fire, since it takes 25% every time it comes in. Despite the intrepid sword boost it gets from teraing, the pressure of being forced to manage hazards as well as being unable to run any potentially better items on the mons makes this balanced.
5. Ogrepon is tera locked. Pretty self explanatory, there is no such thing as surprise Teras on this mon lmao, when you tera you become a mono rock/fire/water typing, which are all pretty shit imo. Its the 1.2x move boosts as well as stat boosts which makes this possibly worthwhile.
Alternatively, you could use the pure grass Ogrepon form, but I believe that form is completely trash since grass on its own is a terrible typing defensively and offensively, and you don't get the 1.2x boost on your other moves since you are lacking a mask, only a measly 1.5x speed boost.
Okidogi, Fezandipiti, Munkidori, Sinistcha - I will have to experiment more on these mons but from facing off against them I think they are pretty mid with the exception of maybe Okidogi. Fezandipiti has bad stat distributions and its typing and moves make it really underwhelming, the only interesting use of the mon ive seen so far is a SpDef tank with beat up toxic chain, but I just don't see this mon being good. Munkidori on the other hand looks really nice however its forced to tera out of its abysmal defensive and offensive typing or else it just gets revenged by Gambit or literally any ground type. Sinistcha is just terrible, the fact it didn't get Shell Smash is really unfortunate imo.
I versed one guy and he hit me with 7 flinches in a row with scarf jirachi, I just had to put this here Teams I have been using to great success:
https://pokepast.es/9096dba41f30fd2e
I am still laddering and I wont stop until I am rank 1 most likely, however this team has been working wonders in OU room tournaments and higher ladder. Tornadus having access to knock and a more accurate hurricane is amazing, and its been doing great removing the boots and items of everybody thanks to its great speed. Chilling Water Clefable with wish pass is just good in general, helping the rest of the team stay alive whilst being a good tank against the Ogrepon forms. The rest of the team are pretty self explanatory, with boots Zama being a great attacker in general with amazing coverage moves, as well as Dondozo to help with the Kingambit and Baxcalibur matchups.
https://pokepast.es/594b2efd5faff415 Rain team, worked well for low ladder
https://pokepast.es/693f8f1febd180ed
Ogrepon-WellspringThis is my main team for laddering and I have almost never lost with this team since I started playing. Personally I believe glimmora HO is infinitely more consistent and better for climbing than screens cheese, the synergy in this team is very great and it has answers to practically anything.
For people asking why I am hypnosis Iron-Valiant, I have been absolutely loving this set recently and I think it is worth a try. The inspiration originally came from prep vs Akalli in my teraless OU semifinals game, since Iron Valiant is walled by stuff like Amoonguss, Zapdos and Toxapex, it is very difficult to break. However if I am able to put those threats to sleep I am able to get another Calm Mind which completely turns the tide of things, since a mon that I am unable to break 100% of the time has suddenly become a possibility to break 60% of the time, sometimes resulting in a sweep. This also works well against Kingambits if I tera electric, they always click sucker and I can put them to sleep for free, resulting in funny rage quits like this one.
Ogrepon-Wellspring is my personal favourite out of the forms, sure Fire gets a free intrepid sword but I believe having to take 25% every time you come in on offensive teams is bad, and having a Water-Grass-Fairy coverage is crazy good and more consistent than Fire-Grass and Fighting/Fairy/Ground.
Lmk your thoughts on this DLC, this is definitely one of my fav meta games of Gen 9 so far. I will most likely RMT the team in the near future
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Funny that people want Alolan ninetales gone when it wasn’t a problem last generation lol
This isn't the argument you think it is. Last generation, Snow didn't exist; Hail did, and Hail offered zero defensive benefits for some solid abusers.
If Alolan Ninetales got Snow instead of Hail last gen, people would've clamored for a Kyurem ban VERY quickly, SD Weavile would've been quite problematic on Veil squads, and Arctozolt would've started picking up steam a lot sooner than it did and stayed incredibly strong for longer.
Saying Alolan Ninetales wasn't broken last gen or in Gen 7 is correct, yes, but it effectively set a completely different weather that functioned completely differently.
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