Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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veti

Supreme Overlord
is a Pre-Contributor
Everything I added not on the survey:

:Zapdos: I put static as something for the council to look into as zapdos fishing for static and winning the game off pure rng, especially if it's sub zapdos, is not only uncompetitive but also unfun and uninteresting.

:Slowbro-Galar::Quick Claw: Quick Draw and Quick Claw also have the ability to simply rob games very frequently, there is no easy counterplay on almost any styles to an 130+ base attack wallbreaker with a damage boosting ability suddenly having a 100+ stab base power priority move without drawbacks for no reason. I've lost games to 4+ quick claw procs in a row way too many times for me to ever consider it competitive.

:Ribombee: I find Ribombee more problematic in breaking Gholdengo than Gliscor, and I believe Gholdengo would barely be a problem without the bee.
 
Enjoyment: 6 (5.5)- Very subjective, hard to argue or explain.
Balance: 6- Many things are problematic, but I don't thing any is as blatantly so as the previous ones and all suspects and decisions have served to improve this.


Manaphy: 3
Still don't think this is so problematic. It isn't a threat on turn 1, it doesn't have the "right" coverage to deal damage to many things when having to spend up to 2 slots on just set up moves and it gets outsped by too many things. It's hard to counter if you give it time, but it's relatively easy to make an aggresive switch in and scare it out. The fact that it gets mostly stopped cold by faster Encore users, which are popular nowadays (Ninetails-A, Ogerpon, Iron Valiant) is what really makes me see this less as a threat; I think it's hard to check it "conventionally" due to its ability to raise either of its defenses on turn 1 while snowballing like crazy when trying to play defensively due to stored power. And this is all about the "double dance" set, I don't think the Tail Glow set is worth commenting beyond discussions on not knowing which set you're facing.
It's resilient to "conventional" counterplay, but vulnerable to offensive pressure, Encore and phazing, all things that the meta either has or has been demanding since day 1. I can see it being problematic enough for a suspect, but I don't think it deserves a ban nor is a priority right now.


Roaring Moon: 3 (3.5)
I thought this thing was broken as a sweeper before it went to UUBL, and I don't think much has changed for it other than the reduced usage of things like Corviknight or Dondozo, or the banning of Chien Pao and Baxcalibur as both competitors and potential checks. Access to Knock Off is nice and gives it both versatility and a way to make progress even against his checks, but I don't think he's the problem of the current meta and more of a symptom. Would support a suspect while I'm leaning on no-ban on other circumstances, but I don't think it's the first priority nor the thing we should be looking at right this moment.


Waterpon: 3
I still think she's a great mon on the tier and just one of the best offensive options in an already offensive-oriented meta. Point being, I think she is, again, a symptom more than a problem herself. It's hard to check her while also checking all the other stuff while also being constricted for options in the hazards department. But for herself, I feel she struggles to choose her coverage and is always open to counterplay from faster opponents when it's not the Trailblaze set, and from anything slower that can hit back on Trailblaze sets due to a general lack of bulk and super-effective options.
She is one of the best mons in the tier as it is and probably will rein as a top 3 if not top 1 mon until DLC2 if not suspected, but I'd say she is where I, personally, draw the line between "very good" and "broken and bannable".


Sneasler: 3 (3+, meaning anywhere between 3 and 5 depending on Dire Claw)
My teams are always weak to this thing and it's pretty much the mon I give up to bother considering on team building, so I hate it personally. But I don't think it'd be as broken as the above due to it's middling STAB combination and lack of bulk outside of Grassy Seed... if not for Dire Claw. Thing is, even if you bother to prepare something that can check it or do something to it, it just might not work and get slept. Heck, even just paralyzed or poisoned can be crippling depending on the mon. And that coming from a mon that's almost impossible to revenge kill in a meaninful way due to its speed with Unburden, and even without it.
I still think he's also a symptom, hence the score, but is the worst of them all in what pushes him through the limit. I don't think he's broken without Dire Claw, but he's good enough where a full ban may also be a valid solution and a low cost to never see that move again. Still, not the most urgent priority.


Kingambit: 4
I like this thing because I love Sucker Punch mind games (on either side), and I consider myself to be decent enough at them. Getting a full reverse sweep over it due to a free 1.5x attack boost though, maybe that's kinda crazy. And I think this mon's ability is a similar case to things like Last Respects where there's an active intention from Game Freak to make things that work on 3v3 VGC, but break apart 6v6 singles. Which I don't like at all.
That said, as ubiquitous as this thing can be, it heavily relies on not participating at all in the match to get these reverse sweeps, and they only work when all remaining mobs can't play around Sucker Punch (like, you know, Will-o-Wisp, Encore, Iron Defense...), which are both bigger disadvantages that people give it credit for.
It's not like it's warping the meta around it as much as people claim it is, all the more when it's vulnerable to things that also affect many of the above mons (Encore, physically defensive walls (preferably if they can also set-up, like Corv, Garg, Dozo), burn...). It's silly when it gets off and it's easy for it to do so, but it's also easy with the right tools to stop it and those tools are not niche things that only counter Kingambit, but are just overall good against many things right now.
A suspect is unavoidable at this point and I don't like Supreme Overlord from a balance perspective, but I don't think it's a top priority for the meta today, technicalities aside.


Gholdengo: 5
Gliscor: 4
I said in a previous post that the Hazards discussion may have to wait until after Tera (and therefore DLC2) for being too complex a topic, but less relevant than Tera. And I said that Gliscor would be a good middle-ground to test now in an attempt to attack the problem at hand without delving too deep on it in so little time.
But I also believe that Gholdengo is the greatest cause for this problem, that most of the meta would look much better without it, that many of the most problematic mons around would be less so with the options that Gholdengo single-handedly negates, and I would very much prefer to see a meta without Gholdengo than without Gliscor.
Even more so, this might be an opportunity to get a glimpse of what Gen 9 without Gholdengo looks like. If it solves the problem, or at least it's alleviated greatly, then that's a win! If it doesn't, we'll have that information to tackle this problem in full length after DLC2 drops and Tera is treated again without having to treat the "what if"s that Gholdengo's existence cause.
I think that either of these are the top priority right now, with Gholdengo being my preference and Gliscor only a way to nerf Hazards without treating the core problem.
 
Just answering the survey
Overall enjoyment: 5 (out of 10). It's not the worst I've ever seen, but there are problems that have persisted far too long this generation (more on that at the end!)
Overall competitive and balance: 3 (out of 10). I don't think this is the worst meta I've ever seen. Just clearly flawed and there is one end-all, be-all solution to make it demonstrably better.

The following are scale 1-5 (reminder for those who either haven't taken or looked at the OU Survey yet! Remember that your voice always matters, but also be respectful of everyone else's opinions!)
:Manaphy: (3)- Honestly? I don't like it, but I think we can hold off on the QB and give it a fair suspect once we eliminate the Real Problems. More on that later.

:Roaring Moon: (4) - I kinda hated this thing pre-DLC, and now with Knock off I hate it more. I've always hated the buff to Knock Off, hated its distribution, and hated its limited counterplay once MegaSton(k)s were gone. I feel like without knock, this thing is a 2 or 3.
But with Knock Off, it cripples any defensive switch-in by removing the item, has banded/boostered sun nonsense, AND is just a pain. It's the next :Kingambit:. High Offense Dark Stab that has... what? :Clefable: and :Great Tusk: as reasonable resistant switch-ins? Lose your item, and revolve a few doors, and it's back to sweep again.

:Gliscor: (2) - HIGHLY controversial opinion coming in here, maybe the most contradictory thing I've ever written: I'm actually okay with Gliscor. It's an absolute PAIN to deal with, but... I think it's the only leg stall-type strategies realistically have to stand on. It's bulky, status immune, defensive tera to beat its checks, but i think part of its degeneracy is fixed with adjustments outside of outright banning the little guy. (I say "little" but Gliscor's dex actually say it's 6 feet tall. i think most of that is tail height, but still. Anyways, I digress).
I think after some major issues are resolved, then maybe we see where this fits into the meta, and assess "how" broken it is. It is broken. But maybe not as broken in a meta I'll get to later.

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: - (4) Mega- Simipour without the Mega-Stone. Or maybe Mega Ludicolo. Honestly? I don't pay attention to this pokemon half as much as I should. It's Stab is walled by Grass and Dragons, but of course it gets Knock Off. There might be some weird or niche viable answers that arise when the dust of the survey settles. I don't know if :Chesnaught: is viable, but I think there are things could check it. It depends what the meta looks like after corrective action (broken record, I know). I think both this and Manaphy are too much for Rain, but I'm leaning towards this one being the problem due to dual Stab and Knock Off.

:Sneasler: (2) - Average mon with an uncompetitive literal RNG move. It's like a cheekier tri-attack. Sneasler is less like Sneasel and more like King's Rock Skill(less) Link. The move is the problem, otherwise this lonnnnnng Sneasel would just be decent, maybe even UU by now.
Congrats on :Weavile: getting Knock Off, but this thing not. Otherwise, we'd be having a different conversation and I'd lean more towards the mon being the problem.

:Kingambit: (6) - I voted 5, but I want to make it clear that this "Pokemon" is a problem, and will always be a problem. Why a 6 vote? This thing 6-0s team with hardly any effort. It's ability is miserable to play against, and there are too many places where it just outright wins. Dark Stab is only resisted by Dark, Fairy, and Fighting, and this thing has Iron Head for Fairy types, so really only fighting types can comfortably switch into that normally.
Oh and :Kingambit: resists its own stab. That's great counterplay.
Oh and :Kingambit: has three different speed tier benchmarks. Fun to figure out which set and speed tier it is as it Kowtow Cleaves its way through your team.
I hate this thing, but I've always hated the entire Pawniard line, so it's no surprise I'd celebrate to never see this thing's name again.

:Gholdengo: (10 out of 5): this is the moment I've been building up to. This is about to get long, so
Several months ago, when i was talking about the "Stranglehold of a pokemon with 30+% usage multiple consecutive months", there was an elephant named :Great Tusk: in the room. But I was talking about :Gholdengo:. I was talking about this format-warping, three immunity, Ultimate Spin-blocking, base 133 nearly unresisted Stab abomination that has continued to absolutely and wholly warp this entire generation. I hate hazards. I accept they are fundamental to the metagame, and any action on those would be an admission that they are inherently uncompetitive. This is why. :Gholdengo: removes nearly all counterplay for hazards simply by the threat of switching in. Remove this thing, and maybe we start seeing old defoggers come back to OU. Maybe we start seeing Rapid Spinners. Sure, the distribution is terrible, but those moves DON'T WORK against this.
Let me spell this out: Hazards are up (let's say 2x spikes and Stealth Rock). You send out literally any Defogger in Gen 8, the worst punish is that the opponent might send in a setup sweeper with defiant that forces you out, but at least you got a defog off.
In this gen, they send out :Gholdengo: and now your defog fails, you lose momentum, and whatever you send out has to either have HDB or take hazard chip AND base 133 SpAttk Stab. Yeah, sure that sounds fun. And the hazards stay. Pretty much the entire game is a headache until Gholdengo is gone, and that's doubly true when there is one on each team. Distribution won't fix how :Gholdengo: has completely, inherently shaped and warped the entirity of Gen 9 into hazard stax.
This thing needed to go seven months ago, and the format is still suffering because it exists. Oh? And what resists its Stab? Kingambit. This thing basically says "use :Kingambit: to answer me" and once :Kingambit: is gone, this miserable thing will continue to thrive and dominate by removing counterplay to hazards.
By banning :Gholdengo:, this frees the meta to evolve and diversify answers to hazards, and also not devote slots to answering the :Gholdengo: that is preventing you from removing hazards in the first place. Other spin-blockers may rise, other Competitive/Defiant might show up. Who knows? Beyond that is theroy-monning. My point is that this attrocity has single-handedly been controlling how entire teams are built. If :Gholdengo: weren't around, there would be more punish to three turns of spikes being spun of defogged away. Suddenly, unbreakable wall monsters like :Gliscor: might actually have a punish when a defogger switches into an eq, Defogs the spikes away, and smiles back at the little guy.
All of the other problematic mons in the tier are harder to evaluate because the entire metagame revolves around Hazards and :Gholdengo: blocking hazard removal. Oh and :Gholdengo: also blocks defog from removing screens, so that's another feather in the golden cap.
It probably can fit on every style of play, due to it's good defensive typing, high SpAttk, and reasonable speed tier. It does too much, and the meta needs it gone in order to grow. OU will still have problems, first and foremost OU needs to be rid of :Gholdengo:

As for other actionable topics:
If :Gholdengo: stays, hazards NEED to be discussed.

That's all I've got!
 
So overall, in summary, the metagame is shit right now. This thing is a problem and so is that and oh yea can't forget this thing and "what's that over there? ANOTHER PROBLEM??!"

:gholdengo: Oh look it's Gholdengo the hazard gate
:gliscor: Nice we finally have a good hazard setter and it's broken
:roaring moon: Knock Off o.o
:manaphy: *Flashing* *Lights ights ights ights*
:ogerpon-wellspring: B O N K
:kingambit: Don't mind me totally not a problem

There's more obviously but I think y'all get the point. L
ook say what you will considering I don't play much OU rn, but it doesn't take anyone long to see how much backlash everything gets. Unless everyone is in on trolling me (let's be honest that probably might happen), then this meta is legit dogshit. Do not fret -- for we have 2025 to sort everything out. That's more than enough time to solve everything imo
 
:Manaphy: is a 4 from me.

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 156 Spe OR 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow / Take Heart
- Acid Armor
- Scald / Surf
- Stored Power

This Manaphy has been absolutely demonic recently. TG + 3A is already strong as many of you know and it would be unfair not to mention it, but double dance Tera Poison Manaphy is easily one of the best win conditions in the tier. Counterplay includes faster Encore, Unaware Pokemon with the right tools to dispatch it, and keeping up constant offensive pressure. There are few non-"extreme" measures besides these mentioned above, and that is concerning towards the balance of our metagame I would say. It also works very nicely on Sticky Webs as Booster Energy Pokemon no longer get the jump on it.

I do believe Manaphy is "playable" as it can be beaten, but I would support a suspect at this time. I would not commit to a ban vote yet at all, but Manaphy has continued to get better and is finally abusing Tera and its position in the format in a capacity we initially thought it would.
I have 2 issues with the encore argument, 1 just from what I'm seeing has access to the move and 1 from my experience.

The first issue is that in the tier, there's 7 mons that have access to this move. Clefable, Dragonite, Iron Valiant, Ninetales-Alolan, Ogerpon Rock and Water, and Samurott Hisiu

Let's be honest, you won't see a Dragonite, Ogerpon, or Samurott running this move as there's so much better sets to run on them that running encore just weakens the mon. So you're basically running seeing this ran on Clefable, Iron Valiant, and Alolan Ninetales.

Clefable is actually a good check for this mon, having both access to unaware to negate Manaphy's stat buffs, base 90 SpDef, and access to encore. I'm not going to say this isn't a bad set, it's a good check for Manaphy so let's move to the next two "candidates".

Iron Valiant is a high usage mon in the tier, with it being versatile in its potential sets, being able to run physical or special or even mixed if you've bumped your head one too many times. But I think there's a few ssues with this strategy:

- Iron Valiant's most ran item is Booster Energy, most often being used to boost speed to outrun a lot of mons in the tier even when they have +1 speed. But the issue is when you have this item and you go to switch into Manaphy to encore, you're using up this item that could be used for a better situation/saved for later. You're wasting your key item and potential win condition on dealing with this mon, which I think is super annoying to have happen just so this mon can't set up and completely sweep.

- The special defense is self explanatory. You have a 31% chance to be 2HKO with scald and it's guaranteed with surf. If you're switching into Manaphy and you're hit with one of these moves, boosted or not, you're going to take a ton of damage. This isn't even accounting for its potential chance of being +1 special attack due to take heart or even +2 due to tail glow. If you lose your Iron Valiant and you have no other answer for it, you've lost there's nothing you can do.


Alolan Ninetales is a good counter due to it's 100 special defense and higher speed stat than Manaphy, but it's main purpose in the meta isn't to break Manaphy or do damage, it's to set up Aurora Veil with light clay. I'm a meta full of hazard setters and abusers, ninetales suffers mid-late game due to the abundance of stealth rocks meaning it can't switch in often, so you're either saving your Alolan ninetales for Manaphy and wasting its purpose or sending it out a bunch and killing it.


As mentioned by Finchinator, tera abuse and sticky webs allow it to basically stop its potential threats in the form of speed reductions to mons like Iron Valiant and Ninetales and stopping Clefable whose mosr common move and most often only ran move is moonblast. Hazards are another issue to talk about, but with the common ribombee set, Manaphy's 100 speed becomes a non issue by slowing any mons that could have potentially outsped it and stop it, and while lots of mons can abuse it as well, Manaphy's potential to become an unbreakable wall with defense boosts, access to a +2 move, and access to take heart which removes any status that could stop it like toxic or paralysis, is super annoying and overall unhealthy to deal with as if your team isn't built to deal with this one issue you may not see for a couple matches, you're fighting an uphill battle you can't often win.
 
Survey thoughts:
Enjoyment and balance (2-3 each) too HO 4 me and hazards skew the meta too much

:Manaphy: (3) its annoying but i dont see the take heart set being good in a LOT of games right now since you just don't get the turns to setup in the offense meta we have now. Tail Glow 3 atks is more of a threat imo but its definitely easy to pick off after with some faster strong threat. That being said there are also a few answers far and few between and it also kind of needs that setup turn that can be hard for any manaphy to get. I've seen some utility sets on this which is really funny and kind of appreciated if we were sure the other 2 sets weren't broken. Eventually this will be an issue but not right now there's bigger threats.

:Roaring Moon: (4) This is probably the most threatening sweeper in OU right now and with screens it becomes much scarier. There doesn't really seem to be anything that can eat its hits after +atk booster (broken item/ability btw; wouldnt be surprised if we got rid of every booster mon above base 100 speed eventually). There are plenty of things that can pick this off with priority though, abusing its bad base defense, and it also can struggle to find a time to setup but not quite as much as manaphy does and it's more broken after a boost. This thing can also run such a wide variety of sets it should probably be banned. Only reason i dont say its 5 is it rarely sweeps in my experience.

:Gliscor: (2) Agreed with CheesyBrie I actually don't see how this mon is so much of an issue. It plays a vital role in the horrid state of hazards right now as its a spiker with the most longevity, but that has never been a point of broken-ness before and I don't see how it would be today. As I've said in previous posts on here I really think Gholdengo is the problem. In games I play vs Gliscor where I actually have the ability to remove hazards, it really is a non-threat, so assuming we get to a point in the metagame where we dont have a certain steel-ghost running around, I think this will be fine to deal with. Poison Heal has always been annoying and a little busted but not to a significant enough degree even now. If people have a problem with Gliscor outside of the context of the hazards discussion they are capping to a ridiculous degree. Bros saying a wall is broken?? In gen 9??

:Ogerpon-Wellspring: (3) I have been championing on this board for this thing's removal but honestly the more games I see it in I don't see it as the highest priority. This mon is a mon that feels like it gets kills everytime it comes out (unless your opponent has rillaboom or wants to pop dragonite's multiscale). However, this meta is still so offense focused I have a hard time saying that any mon doesn't auto get KOs when it comes out. With hazards and the tons of booster mons and setup sweepers, most ou games feel like playing a game of sacks with my opponent. Ogerpon is a part of that but not anything broken since its very limited by its required item and very beatable speed stat. However *if* (i hope *when*) we get to a normal metagame where we aren't staring down 45 potential threats in OU, yeah a mon that gets a kill everytime it comes out with 1 or 2 exceptions is broken.

:Sneasler: (1) Idk gliscor and ghold exist right now, even if one or both of them went I'm not sure I'd see this as a big enough issue. Unburden sets are scary as always but pretty balanced. Dire claw and probably poison touch are the reasons its on here but to be honest I just dont see it coming out enough to be able to spam this at the pace everyone is afraid of. Is dire claw a little uncompetitive? Maybe and its not something im totally against looking at in the future. But it really does not feel like something i really even notice or have much trouble playing around. It's probably most impactful in the really close games but right now sneasler without unburden isnt really the greatest mon to be using anyways so youre kinda crippling yourself right there. I think the bigger threat than a mon that poisons or sleeps landot are the ones that are 2hkoing it.

:Kingambit: (4) Lol. Lmao. I think everyone is about done with this guy. Its almost a cheese mon that tricked everyone into thinking its balanced or healthy in the metagame. A lot of times you really need to prep around this guy, having 1 or 2 of your sweepers with a particular attribute that lets it 1v1 5SO Kingambit. Its pretty dumb how many wins this thing is able to pull out of its hat at the end of the game regardless of how the user played in the turns prior. And the fact that it has so much defensive utility as well makes it really hard to justify. Its one of those mons that's almost okay in my eyes unfortunately gamefreak gave it 1 tool that really pushes it from acceptable to just plain stupid. That seems to be the trend for many gen 9 mons.

:Gholdengo: (5) I and many others have talked to death about this thing in this thread. Hell that might be the only reason its truly on the list since many still seem to argue this thing is balanced. Just to reiterate points I previously made, this mon is:
-not broken as an offensive threat but rather warping the game in terms of what it does for hazards and against defensive mons.
-is able to reliably prevent all hazard removal (yes even spin from tusk), something unheard of in any post-defog meta as well as extremely unhealthy when paired with the largest amount of hazard setters we have ever had. Making it perhaps the biggest factor when considering the state of hazards in OU
-a complete wall to most stall mons, playing another part in their universal dropping in usage/viability, which then plays a part in the lack of answers for all the new offensive threats we have
-will most likely wall almost any defensive defogger (traditionally known as the best defoggers) even if we do get a defog tm, making teams solely rely on mons that are running not only defog, but also coverage for gholdengo and perhaps even attack/speed investment just to be able to remove hazards consistently.
-is a factor in the rise of court change somehow being seen as the best way of removing hazards (stall will just ignore and get hazards up on both sides of the field)
-so useful and versatile that it can easily slot one of its many many sets into seemingly any team structure
-not needed in the meta in order for OU to achieve a balanced state
-ruins many other utilty moves limiting creative team building (trick, whirlwind, block, imprison)
Thing is stupid and has a brain dead ability please remove it.

Also I re-stated hazards are perhaps the primary issue that needs to be looked at. Ideally that would be through a Gholdengo ban, but gliscor ban seems to be something others have thrown around though I disagree. Regardless of the avenue it something that very much needs to be looked at (especially by looking at gholdengo)
 
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Everything I added not on the survey:
:Zapdos: I put static as something for the council to look into as zapdos fishing for static and winning the game off pure rng, especially if it's sub zapdos, is not only uncompetitive but also unfun and uninteresting.
No no! Thicc daddy Zapdos is untouchable! Not only is this mon helping to hold this tier together, Static gives some counterplay for mindless U-turn spam. Static has counterplay of its own in non-contact moves (Ivy Cudgel, Stone Edge, Pyro Ball, Icicle Crash, etc) and protective pads/punching gloves.
 
Zapdos is honestly not a problem. If you have trouble beating Zapdos, maybe don't rely so heavily on contact moves. It doesn't make Meowscarada bad either as Meowscarada only needs 8 Special Attack EVs to 2HKO with Power Gem with Expert Belt.
 
Glimmora is probably one of the least problematic setters we have m
Y4out here. no priority, pretty bad bulk, usually runs sr and not spikes bc it tends to be unable to set more than 1 spike layer, toxic spikes only work vs physical attackers and are both a free entry to gliscor and even easier to remove bc of iron moth n sneasler running around, even with mortal spin its a pretty bad spinner. Its not a bad mon, I love running it but to act like its the biggest problem when it doesnt even make use of spikes well compared to every other setter
If we are bitching and moaning about hazards as a whole, I don't see how you can ignore the mon whose sole existence is setting up hazards, and can do so almost as easily as...existing. Part of the issue with hazards is that it forces a response. Forcing your Moth or Sneasler out just to remove the hazard is a form of progress on my side, especially when I don't need to manually set them up (although it could).

I never said it was the biggest problem. I did say that it's more problematic than Hammurot. That was in response to the people complaining about said mon, when it has a 10% chance to fail at its duties to set up a single layer of hazards outright, and can be dealt with, simple as U Turn into Rocky Helm.
 
:gliscor: 3/5 spiker that lives forever, beats tusk and cinderace, forces gliscor vs gliscor action, i can see going into a suspect

:gholdengo: 2/5 only thing being benefited from him going away is corviknight, defog distribution is so bad it doesnt really make that much of a difference

:kingambit: 2/5 or 1/5, if it was pre dlc it would be 4 or 5 but its manageable now

:roaring-moon: ???/5 i havent experienced much of this and the only ones i fought were defeated quickly, no comment on this

:Ogerpon-wellspring: 5/5 has no switch ins except super niche stuff, even things that should check it like meow or amoonguss die to coverage

:Manaphy: 1/5 overrated as hell
I’ll give my takes on these, and a little in moon, used him a lot right at the release of dlc2 and don’t think he’s staying OU for long.
Suspect definitely :gliscor: Gliscor is 100% worthy of suspect, and arguably ban. I have said it before but I am of the firm belief that the spikes set is not peak gliscor, and that people are not using him optimally, and once they do, it will become quite clear that this funny guy is not for OU.

Quickban vote THEN suspect if it doesnt result in a ban :gholdengo: tons of mons are heavily role restricted, stuff like spikes gliscor is proliferated and enabled by ghold, and you just don’t see defog much on mons that could run it just because of the existence of ghold. The amount of mons invalidated by this mf alone is obscene, and honestly the metagame would be way healthier without him. This weirdo smiling string cheese has huge set variety, the best ability EVER, crazy good typing, a multitude of good items, stat wise the special attack is monstrous, the bulk so crazy that defensive sets can wall stab coverage moves specifically for him, and not to mention the moves.

Suspect later :kingambit: rrrr dude needs another suspect in dlc2 but other then that cant say hes broken definitely unfun tho

No suspect, just quickban later when he becomes a major problem :roaring-moon: legit spanish bax, the second they start running tera-blast we are all f-ed.

Suspect worthy :Ogerpon-wellspring: similar to ghold in how the typing+ability heavily restrict teambuilding, not to mention how you take just absurd breaking power, albeit a step down from hearthstone, and give it an incredible defensive typing, this thing commonly runs away with games, luckily most still run power whip and not horn leech/trailblaze as their grass move (trailblaze takes advantage of forced switches to basically invalidate stuff that normally checks/revenges her via speed like valiant or pult)

Suspect worthy, idk bout ban yet. :Manaphy: if waterpon goes, quickban this. The fact that a mon basically with the tools tailored to counter it can still lose against acid armor sets (when it doesn’t have encore although encore is not super common) is insane. Without waterpon manaphy is definitely gonna go out of control. Rillaboom alone can’t hold the entire meta together, and unaware mons lose to the stored power sets, or they get burned and rest stalled.
 
f we are bitching and moaning about hazards as a whole, I don't see how you can ignore the mon whose sole existence is setting up hazards, and can do so almost as easily as...existing. Part of the issue with hazards is that it forces a response. Forcing your Moth or Sneasler out just to remove the hazard is a form of progress on my side, especially when I don't need to manually set them up (although it could).
we can ignore it because its bad at setting the most problematic hazards rn (spikes) instead setting less useful hazards, easily threatened by other setters and defogers/spinners, and has a short hazard shelf life as it cannot come back to set again due to its poor bulk, bad speed tier and own hazard weakness. samurott has really good usage even in midgame with good priority, sharpness boosted spike setting, ting lu is a bulky beast thats a great whirlwind user on top of spikes and sr, and gliscor is bulky, has great recovery, good stalling, knock immunity and will set hazards back up as long as its alive
 
"Bakugames, post: 9823965, member: 494299"]
we can ignore it because its bad at setting the most problematic hazards rn (spikes) instead setting less useful hazards, easily threatened by other setters and defogers/spinners, and has a short hazard shelf life as it cannot come back to set again due to its poor bulk, bad speed tier and own hazard weakness. samurott has really good usage even in midgame with good priority, sharpness boosted spike setting, ting lu is a bulky beast thats a great whirlwind user on top of spikes and sr, and gliscor is bulky, has great recovery, good stalling, knock immunity and will set hazards back up as long as its alive
Other than Gliscor, the other two aren't that more difficult to handle than Glim. Sam can potentially lose before even setting a single layer, and Ting Lu is all sorts of passive.

If we are looking at Spikes, and only Spikes, then sure. But if we want action against hazards as a whole, enough to complain about Ghold so hard, then Glim is damn good at doing its job, causing havoc, then dying, it's role fulfilled.

I should compare it to Dire Claw. Problematic enough to rustle jimmies, not enough to do anything about it. But any convo involving Gholdengoand the chokehold it has should also include Glimmora. It's still damn good at its job, and I'm still seeing them everywhere.
 
If we are looking at Spikes, and only Spikes, then sure. But if we want action against hazards as a whole, enough to complain about Ghold so hard, then Glim is damn good at doing its job, causing havoc, then dying, it's role fulfilled.
is it though? glim is extremely easy to neutralize while only leaving behind two hazards, sometimes even one. leaves things open for screens, setup mons and other hazard setters. rarely ohkos anything and even if it does 2hko its often slower so you used your sash and didnt get a single hazard up. open any opportunity and your hazards are gone forever.

sam can lose, but even its worst case scenarios are just the average glim scenario. ting lu is passive but glim isnt that much better on offensive presence + ruination and whirlwind create a lot more havoc than whatever glim can do.

and the main issue with hazard rn is spikes. rocks and tspikes will always be annoying but spikes are the main issue and are what makes all these 3 mons be extremely annoying in the home and now dlc1 meta
 
My (un)professional opinion? Ghold and Gambit NEED TO FUCKING GO.

:gholdengo:
sweet mary mother of joseph, dear lord in heaven someone cast flame plate Judgment on this thing immediately. I genuinely don't understand people saying "ooooh we just need more viable defoggers!!!!" my brother in christ THE FUCKING STRING CHEESE MAN BLOCKS DEFOG. THE FUNNY FIELD CLEARER DOES NOT WORK WHEN GENERAL PEPPER-JACKASS OF THE BASTARD BRIE-GADE IS ON THE FIELD. Make it Rain is obscenely powerful coming off of its 133 Sp. Atk, not to mention it is a 100% accurate Draco Meteor that only drops Sp. Atk by 1 stage, with the tradeoff of... 10 less BP. If this rat fuck gets a Nasty Plot off it can damn well take out half a team. Not to mention its Steel/Ghost typing blocks both Spins, and makes it immune to poison. Not that it'd matter since Good As Gold blocks TWave, Will-O-Wisp, Toxic, Spore, etc. Literally the only thing that can bypass GaG is Toedscruel Spore, which if you unironically run it expecting it to not get OHKO'd you belong in a mental asylum. Indescribable Rage/5, get this thing the hell out.

:kingambit:
fuck you. 5/5.
 
I made a post about this a few months ago, and it seems that my point still stands. The fundamental flaw with the current metagame is the ratio hazard setters to hazard removers in the tier. In OU, there are 18 pokemon that can set stealth rocks and/or spikes. There are 4 pokemon that can remove them (note that one of these is Torkoal, which is only used on sun teams, and who's optimal set uses heat rock instead of boots). With this in mind, I honestly feel like gholdengo is just a symptom of a larger problem. Great Tusk can force it out with earthquake or knock off, while cinderace can bypass good as gold altogether with court change.

Gholdengo can be annoying by blocking hazard removal, but all it's really doing is exacerbating a problem that won't go away if it's banned. Banning Gholdengo won't change the fact that there's more than FOUR TIMES as many hazard setters as there are removers. I think it may be time to break up with stealth rock.

I am beginning to adopt the somewhat controversial belief that stealth rock is an uncompetitive move. There is basically no downside to clicking it, and once rocks are set, the pressure is put on the opponent to remove them. And in gen 9, removing them is harder than ever because THERE ARE MORE THAN FOUR TIMES AS MANY SETTERS AS THERE ARE REMOVERS. In order to build a viable team, you NEED to include one of these pokemon. That is absurdly restrictive. If you don't want to use tusk, corv or cinderace, then enjoy wearing boots/taking chip every switch. Stealth rocks were fine in previous gens when there were means to remove them. In gen 9, you don't have that luxury.

I'm focusing on stealth rock over spikes because it takes more work and commitment to get up 3 layers of spikes, as well as mons with immunities, but both should be discussed. Toxic spikes are probably fine because they're are other viable ways to remove them. Sticky web can fuck the hell off, but it's distribution is so limited that it's less problematic.
 
Well...yes. You said it earlier. Its still good at what it needs to do, especially on more offensive oriented teams. Gliscor is simply better at what it wants to accomplish, since it can set up with absolute ease and return for more. It's literally the best of all three. Or should I say, it combines all three of their traits up at once.

Spikes is the flavor of the month, sure, I read a few comments about banning that move in particular. But even more on Gholdengo in particular. Hazards are everywhere. We have very few removers.
 
unironically think we should consider just nuking the tier by banning all the broken guys and dropping them one by one. like literally say fuck it and ban enamorus ghold gliscor moth valiant gambit manaphy wellspring rmoon and wake, and see if what remains is a playable tier. i really dont like post-dlc svou and i cant see there being a solution as simple as "just ban gambit and wellspring and the tier will be fine". even a tera ban/restriction would leave the tier in a very powercrept and centralised state. i might go back to ss or adv or draft for a while unless theres significant change in sv.
 
I made a post about this a few months ago, and it seems that my point still stands. The fundamental flaw with the current metagame is the ratio hazard setters to hazard removers in the tier. In OU, there are 18 pokemon that can set stealth rocks and/or spikes. There are 4 pokemon that can remove them (note that one of these is Torkoal, which is only used on sun teams, and who's optimal set uses heat rock instead of boots). With this in mind, I honestly feel like gholdengo is just a symptom of a larger problem. Great Tusk can force it out with earthquake or knock off, while cinderace can bypass good as gold altogether with court change.

Gholdengo can be annoying by blocking hazard removal, but all it's really doing is exacerbating a problem that won't go away if it's banned. Banning Gholdengo won't change the fact that there's more than FOUR TIMES as many hazard setters as there are removers. I think it may be time to break up with stealth rock.

I am beginning to adopt the somewhat controversial belief that stealth rock is an uncompetitive move. There is basically no downside to clicking it, and once rocks are set, the pressure is put on the opponent to remove them. And in gen 9, removing them is harder than ever because THERE ARE MORE THAN FOUR TIMES AS MANY SETTERS AS THERE ARE REMOVERS. In order to build a viable team, you NEED to include one of these pokemon. That is absurdly restrictive. If you don't want to use tusk, corv or cinderace, then enjoy wearing boots/taking chip every switch. Stealth rocks were fine in previous gens when there were means to remove them. In gen 9, you don't have that luxury.

I'm focusing on stealth rock over spikes because it takes more work and commitment to get up 3 layers of spikes, as well as mons with immunities, but both should be discussed. Toxic spikes are probably fine because they're are other viable ways to remove them. Sticky web can fuck the hell off, but it's distribution is so limited that it's less problematic.
One contention I have off the bat here is that Gholdengo is a major reason the viable-remover ratio is terrible in OU, or at least it doesn't help on top of the cuts (Corviknight being the most infamous victim).

Also, Spikes are a major problem BECAUSE they don't take enough work and commitment for 3 layers to balance them out as they did before: Gliscor is putting them up every turn he's not dead, same to Samurott-H and Ting-Lu, and the setters aren't simultaneously passive-and-breakable enough to make those free turns an opportunity cost for them (Gliscor and Ting just refuse to die, while Samurott is basically an offensive breaker/pivot with Flip Turn that sets Spikes while just doing what it already does).
 
Considering Gliscor and Ghold are the two most common mons in the tier, I am not seeing how Dire Claw can be problematic.
Aside from being literally the only 2 Pokemon that can safely switch into Sneasler without pre-emptive Tera, and the fact that you specifically have to not Tera them either, consider that you’re not playing exclusively with Ghold or Glis at all times.
Also consider that Miraidon is checked by Iron Threads, Rillaboom, Ting-Lu, and Clodsire. Despite being checked by all these Pokemon, Miraidon is still unquestionably Ubers material.
 
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