Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Because I wanted to try and branch out a bit from my usual core of Corvi/Gastro/Dirge, I'm trying a new team.

I present to you... Loses to Volcarona in the Team Builder!

:slowking: :amoonguss: :garganacl: :iron-treads: :iron-valiant: :hydreigon:

This team loses to Volc so damn hard it isn't even funny. I mean, MAYBE Garg can mess with it... But everything else dies to it.

Discussion Points:

I'd like to propose a series of questions to anyone who would like to answer any or all of them:

What's your favorite Volcarona set right now? Bulky, 3-Attacks Offensive, Sub+Giga Drain, etc.

What Tera type do you prefer on your Volcarona sets?

What Tera type Volc could or does utilize well do you think is being underrated right now?

What teammates do you like running with your Volc currently?

If you build teams that Volc doesn't fit on, what are you running to keep its many sets in check?
Not related to my post buuuuut...

1. Personally, I'm partial toward Bulky QD 3 Attacks. I like going fast and hitting hard, and this is one of the more threatening sets out there.

2. If I played Volc, Water. Most would go Grass for the STAB on Giga Drain, or Ground for... Some reason, but I'd go Water, like I do with my Frosmoth.

3. Once again, Water. Water is just good on most things.

4. Orthworm. >u> Shed Tail breaks Volc and Frosmoth. Otherwise, I just try to patch up Volc's main weaknesses, hazards and Rock moves. Tusk is a very good mon for this, or even Treads.
 
1. Bulky with two moves and Will-o-Wisp, with just enough Speed to go before Jolly Great Tusk, because fuck 'em.

2. I used to rock Grass a lot, but now I like... uh, Rock. Rock Tera Blast does a lot more for me than Giga Drain. My Sub Dirge with Tera Flying stops any Garg set cold, and Great Tusk is neutral to Fire anyway, so I don't worry about STAB being resisted.

3: Rock, as you outlined and I use myself, is pretty damn cool. Steel is also a fun way to give yourself a free turn against Clodsire. Psychic too, for similar Clod-destroying reasons, albeit Psychic is better for an offensive bent.

4: Sub Dirge like I said, to take out Garg since my Volc really would rather not. H-Zoroark is also great for mindgames, since in the back of their heads the opponent has to go "Alright shit is he gonna Quiver Dance or am I gonna get hit with a Specs Hyper Voice".

5: There isn't really a set Tera Fairy Clodsire can't stuff eventually, which is a Tera type that's suddenly become much more common with the advent of Walking Wake. Tera Steel with Tera Blast could potentially, but that's not the matchup Volc wants to try and flip usually.
 

awyp

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Straying away from the theorymon a bit, I'd like to discuss one of the tier's most divisive top-tier offensive threats and one of the most nuanced Tera users right now: Volcarona. I just finished working on my Offensive Volc analysis (many thanks to the C&C team for their guidance, by the way) and I think there's honestly a lot more to discuss than what a simple analysis can do justice.


The Mon Itself

For well over a decade (feel old yet?), Volcarona's been doing several variations of the same thing: it presses Quiver Dance and then it sweeps if it doesn't bump into a bad matchup. Dubbed the "Matchup Moth" due to its ability to either win a game outright or find itself accomplishing little to nothing, Volcarona has always had its place in OU from its debut in Black and White because it combines the amazing Quiver Dance with its amazing stats, unique typing, strong STABs, good coverage, and excellent utility movepool including reliable recovery to pick and choose its checks and counters. Volcarona's only real selling point is its access to Quiver Dance, sure, but it's so good at utilizing this move that it could thrive even in the metagames that predated Heavy-Duty Boots, in spite of its crippling 4x Rock weakness.

Volcarona has been a hot topic in OU for pretty much all of its existence because of that "Matchup Moth" title: it has counterplay and it physically cannot circumvent all of said counterplay with a single set (it would most certainly get banned if it could), but it has the means of circumventing individual mons among said counterplay with some tweaks to its moveset and stat investment and if it has the right set for the right occasion it can and most certainly will sweep a team outright. It's challenging to build a team that handles all Volcarona sets, but it's challenging to build a team around Volcarona in the first place due to the amount of support it requires... well, the latter was much more true prior to the introduction of Heavy-Duty Boots, but Volcarona still needs its teammates to cover the matchups it can't cover.

Volcarona's typing is a mixed bag: it has some shortcomings in that it's weak to Stealth Rock and Rock-type attacks in general as well as Water and Flying, but it's also a Bug-type with a 4x resistance to Grass, a neutrality to Fire, Ice and Fairy resistances, and a resistance to Bug moves including U-Turn while also being a Fire-type that isn't weak to Ground and that resists Fighting. Bug/Fire really isn't bad. In fact, it's quite a strong defensive typing outside of that brutal Rock weakness. That plus Quiver Dance's SpDef boost plus Volcarona's native Flame Body to punish contact moves collectively make it a mon with quite a lot of good defensive utility despite being a mon with a major defensive shortcoming that it has to run an item to work around.

How Terastallization Changed Volcarona

Volcarona has always been limited by its coverage and its typing's weaknesses. It has to run Quiver Dance and a Fire STAB is necessary to deal with most Steel-types reliably, but Volcarona had to make a tough choice between Giga Drain, Psychic, and (while the move still existed) a couple of Hidden Power variants. HP Ground dealt with Heatran and some opposing Fire-types, but Psychic dealt with Toxapex and Fighting-types while Giga Drain dealt with bulky Waters. And no matter what set it ran, Volcarona had to feat Rock moves, Water moves, and (to some degree) extremely powerful physical attacks. But Terastallization fundamentally changes Volcarona in every way, offensively and defensively. This gen, Volcarona is debatably better than ever; that's no mean feat when it's so strong in BW OU, has Z-Moves at its disposal in SM OU, and has experienced a massive resurgence in viability in ORAS OU despite finishing that gen as a UUBL mon.

Volcarona doesn't have to play at an inherent disadvantage now that Tera is a part of the equation: offensive sets can expand their coverage with access to newfound STABs in Tera Blast, can buff their existing STABs even further, and can do all this while dramatically changing the defensive profile that Volcarona lives and dies by. And it can do this while still maintaining its niche as a strong Quiver Dance sweeper with a great Speed tier, respectable bulk, and good STABs.

Terastallization is also a countermeasure against Volcarona, though. Most notably, we've been seeing Kingambit and Volcarona playing a sort of cat-and-mouse game of Tera types to try to force an advantage against one-another in SPL. Tera Fire has quickly become one of Kingambit's best options, eclipsing Tera Flying, since it resists Volcarona's STABs and becomes immune to Burns from defensive sets' Will-o-Wisp and all sets' Flame Body. This adaptation to more conventional Tera-Grass Volcarona led to Volcarona adopting new Tera types specifically to beat Tera Fire Kingambit. The big one, of course, is Tera Ground alongside Tera Blast. Everyone expected this to be amazing in a meta with Heatran, but we aren't there yet; but Tera Ground Tera Blast still maintains a strong hit against Clodsire, Toxapex, and most opposing Fire-types. Tera Flying Kingambit can handle Tera Ground Tera Blast, sure, but it has to play a dangerous game of risking a Burn against other Volcarona sets.

Breaking Down the Tera Type Index:

Volcarona is not one-dimensional in its abuse of Terastallization, as the official Tera Type index reflects. To briefly go over what each of Volc's many, many, many Tera types do:

The Common Tera Types:
  • Grass, ft. Giga Drain: Grants Volcarona a crucial Ground resistance and gives it STAB Giga Drain. When run alongside Substitute and Giga Drain, Volcarona can PP Stall Clodsire's Recovers and outheal Substitute's damage thanks to that Earthquake resistance.
  • Ground, ft. Tera Blast: Turns Volcarona's major Rock weakness into a resistance, gives Volcarona an Electric immunity, and grants Volcarona a powerful STAB that handles Iron Moth, Clodsire, Toxapex, and most Fire-types including the aforementioned Tera Fire Kingambit designed to handle most Volcarona variants.
  • Fairy, with and without Tera Blast: It's a generally great defensive typing, especially on defensive sets with Wisp, but I actually think that Tera Fairy+Tera Blast on offensive sets deserves special mention as an underrated tech. I brought this up in my Analysis as a means of handling Dragon-types like Baxcalibur, Dragapult, Dragonite, and Garchomp, and I think this is very unexplored at the moment despite having a very real niche of taking out some of Volcarona's scarier offensive checks. Dragapult and Dragonite are very relevant targets, after all. Give this one a try!
The Situational (But Still Good) Tera Types:
  • Bug/Fire: Lumping these in together. Volcarona already has some pretty formidable STABs, so buffing them even further is always an option. Volcarona's typing as a whole is quite synergistic defensively, but getting rid of some of the dual typing's shortcomings can be useful. Removing its Water weakness with Tera Bug or its Flying weakness with Tera Fire has some situational defensive merit.
  • Psychic, ft. the move Psychic: Clodsire is much more threatened by Tera Psychic+Psychic, as it's a solid 2HKO. Volcarona can use this to muscle past many Skeledirge variants, and it maintains super effective hits against Fighting-types like Quaquaval and Iron Hands while still hitting Pex and Clodsire. There's a use case for Life Orb on this, and it might even be usable on Indeedee Psychic Terrain teams? It's still a good option in general.
  • Steel: Turning your mon into Registeel is kinda neat. A Poison immunity and Steel's amazing defensive profile can give Volcarona a lot more opportunities to set up a Quiver Dance or two.
  • Water: Turning your mon into Suicune iskinda neat. Newfound Water and Fire resistances and a generally-good defensive profile help Volcarona set up more easily. Maybe Tera Blast is worth considering to hit Fire-types (including opposing Volcarona) and Clodsire?
  • Rock, ft. Tera Blast: "I used the Volcarona to destroy the Volcarona." Hits Fire-types, Dragonite, and Baxcalibur very hard so it's more than just an anti-Volc tech, but if there's one thing Volcarona appreciates it's the opposing Volcarona being removed after the two engage in a Quiver Dance war that would typically depend on one of them critting the other.
In Short:

Volcarona is extremely polarizing right now, and for good reason. This is the first time in a very long time that the esteemed Matchup Moth can win pretty much all its bad matchups, albeit not with a single set, and the sheer unpredictability of Terastallization as a whole is put on full display with Volcarona specifically since it has a bare minimum of nine viable Tera types. Hell, I even think there's room for stuff like Tera Flying+Hurricane or Tera Electric should the metagame shift in that direction. But I can't help but feel as though it warrants more discussion than just "is it problematic?" since Volcarona, for how polarizing it is, has a lot of room for nuance and expression right now. I was very surprised to find that Tera Fairy+Tera Blast wasn't talked about a lot, but I opted to include it as a viable option on an offensive set because of how much potential merit it has offensively for how good it is defensively, and I quite like its role in this tier despite it being something to keep an eye on.

Discussion Points:

I'd like to propose a series of questions to anyone who would like to answer any or all of them:

What's your favorite Volcarona set right now? Bulky, 3-Attacks Offensive, Sub+Giga Drain, etc.

What Tera type do you prefer on your Volcarona sets?

What Tera type Volc could or does utilize well do you think is being underrated right now?

What teammates do you like running with your Volc currently?

If you build teams that Volc doesn't fit on, what are you running to keep its many sets in check?
Great write up, I appreciate the time you took to write this friend.


ansrs to ur qstions

What's your favorite Volcarona set right now? Bulky, 3-Attacks Offensive, Sub+Giga Drain, etc.

Fav set honestly is bulky Fiery Dance, Giga Drain, Morning Sun, Quiver Dance (Tera Grass), you just need to clear out opposing Kingambit if it's Tera Fire / Ceruledge (Flash Fire)

What Tera type do you prefer on your Volcarona sets?

Grass / Fairy / Ground

What Tera type Volc could or does utilize well do you think is being underrated right now?

Ground

What teammates do you like running with your Volc currently?

Ideally a strong Physical attacker like Roaring Moon and a Bulky Water (Pex / King)

If you build teams that Volc doesn't fit on, what are you running to keep its many sets in check?

Flying / Fire Tera Kingambit + Toxapex with Haze
 
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OU fine minus Garg (and the memes it requires to keep its pool of options in check) and the dancing around Tera of the top let’s say, top 5 to 10 mons, which is a tera issue mostly. Power creep going to keep going up it’s not realistic to ban every offensive mon. OU is normally going to centralize around few key threats at any given moment. This tier in its current state is much more enjoyable than past ones, balance heavy tiers are boring af anyways.
balance best (and coolest) teamstyle sorry dont @
 

pulsar512b

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at first I read this as "Quag" and I was baffled someone mentioned Quagsire as a sweeper for a solid 30 seconds
it does have curse so..... (don't run this ok if you want this sort of bulky sweeping threat there's so many other options that are simply better)

volcarona has really not changed in all it's gens its just got new silly tools this gen that only increase how much of a 'well i win this if volc doesnt have x, but i lose if volc has x' it is
 

Finchinator

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Today the SV OU tiering council will be conducting a multi-step vote on Walking Wake.

The internal vote includes two prompts:
  • Do you want to quickban Walking Wake: yes or no
  • If “no”, do you want to suspect Walking Wake: yes or no
If the first question goes above our supermajority+ threshold (meaning at least 7/9 support, which is >2/3), then it will be quickbanned. If it does not, the second question will need a simple majority to trigger a prompt suspect of Walking Wake in SV OU. If neither threshold is hit, no action will occur.
 

Finchinator

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I personally will be voting to ban Walking Wake. However, I do want to add that I intend to vote to unban it upon the release of Pokemon Home.

I believe Walking Wake creates an unhealthy metagame dynamic, warping the spectrum of Sun match-ups all while having a very limited pool of counterplay. This makes the metagame unbearably limited and repetitive (far moreso than before). Teambuilding is dictated by a slew of arguably troublesome factors as is, but Walking Wake takes the cake as arguably the most restrictive presence there is upon its addition to the tier.

I am excited to see how the vote will go and I think Walking Wake may be more manageable with a larger dex of Pokemon in the future personally.
 
Today the SV OU tiering council will be conducting a multi-step vote on Walking Wake.

The internal vote includes two prompts:
  • Do you want to quickban Walking Wake: yes or no
  • If “no”, do you want to suspect Walking Wake: yes or no
If the first question goes above our supermajority+ threshold (meaning at least 7/9 support, which is >2/3), then it will be quickbanned. If it does not, the second question will need a simple majority to trigger a prompt suspect of Walking Wake in SV OU. If neither threshold is hit, no action will occur.
preemptive drinking game take a shot every time someone says Garganacl should've been suspected/QBed first
 
I personally will be voting to ban Walking Wake. However, I do want to add that I intend to vote to unban it upon the release of Pokemon Home.

I believe Walking Wake creates an unhealthy metagame dynamic, warping the spectrum of Sun match-ups all while having a very limited pool of counterplay. This makes the metagame unbearably limited and repetitive (far moreso than before). Teambuilding is dictated by a slew of arguably troublesome factors as is, but Walking Wake takes the cake as arguably the most restrictive presence there is upon its addition to the tier.

I am excited to see how the vote will go and I think Walking Wake may be more manageable with a larger dex of Pokemon in the future personally.
Curious to see the rest of the council's opinion on Wake. I've posted my thoughts on Wake before and initially I didn't view it as a big issue, though that opinion has changed now that I have a bunch more games played.

So far I still think it's manageable on it's own - at least defensively- but after having played more games since my last posts about Wake, it has been very constricting. I feel forced to run either Clodsire, Pex or Slowking on every balance team and while they're not neccesarily bad mons, it feels very limiting in the builder. They're also pretty passive so a good opponent can capitalize on these switch-ins. I personally don't really mind this because I play Balance or BO the majority of the time but it is definitely a problem.

Offensively, now that people seem to be using +Spe Proto with Specs, I find it pretty hard to answer Wake. your options are... +1 Roaring Moon or +1 Iron Valiant (Both either scarf or booster energy). ESpeed DNite can also deal with it somewhat. Wake is pretty bulky for an offensive mon, 99/91/83 defenses are respectable, so it can live a hit or 2 from priority users like Kingambit or Breloom.

Also completely agree with the meta being extremely repetitive. Wake has boosted sun's viability by a crazy amount so now almost all teams I face are Sun Offense teams, and although my teams are built fairly well to handle this, it's getting pretty stale.

Wake does feel more like a Suspect and less like a QB to me personally as I have seen a lot of split opinions on it and I'm on the fence rn
 
Thank you for the detailed description of Walking Wake. Based on the information provided, it seems that Walking Wake could be a very powerful and versatile Pokémon in the competitive scene, especially when used in conjunction with the Intense Sunlight weather effect or the Booster Energy item. Its ability to boost its highest stat by 30% under the sun, along with its access to powerful special moves and coverage, makes it a significant threat to many common Pokémon in the metagame. Furthermore, its impressive speed stat and access to the agility move could make it difficult to revenge kill or outspeed, especially when combined with a choice scarf or choice specs. Considering its abilities and stats, it's possible that Walking Wake could be banworthy in the competitive scene of the Pokémon Scarlet and Violet Overused tier. However, it ultimately depends on how it performs in the metagame, how easily it can be countered, and how much it affects the overall balance of the tier.
 
I think the fact that I've seen people running scarf pult and Meow shows how busted it is in the sun, but outside of the sun it's a bit lacking and Torkoal isn't good and good play can pick it off early in the game severely limiting what WW can do in a game. I think there's a good chance if we gave it another week the sun will start setting (so to speak) and the meta will feel less repetitive.

Personally what I think the Meta needs is Excadrill back so we can have some gen 5 craziness again :woop:
 
Thank you for the detailed description of Walking Wake. Based on the information provided, it seems that Walking Wake could be a very powerful and versatile Pokémon in the competitive scene, especially when used in conjunction with the Intense Sunlight weather effect or the Booster Energy item. Its ability to boost its highest stat by 30% under the sun, along with its access to powerful special moves and coverage, makes it a significant threat to many common Pokémon in the metagame. Furthermore, its impressive speed stat and access to the agility move could make it difficult to revenge kill or outspeed, especially when combined with a choice scarf or choice specs. Considering its abilities and stats, it's possible that Walking Wake could be banworthy in the competitive scene of the Pokémon Scarlet and Violet Overused tier. However, it ultimately depends on how it performs in the metagame, how easily it can be countered, and how much it affects the overall balance of the tier.
did you rip this from chatgpt
 
Today the SV OU tiering council will be conducting a multi-step vote on Walking Wake.

The internal vote includes two prompts:
  • Do you want to quickban Walking Wake: yes or no
  • If “no”, do you want to suspect Walking Wake: yes or no
If the first question goes above our supermajority+ threshold (meaning at least 7/9 support, which is >2/3), then it will be quickbanned. If it does not, the second question will need a simple majority to trigger a prompt suspect of Walking Wake in SV OU. If neither threshold is hit, no action will occur.
I'm suffering from new toy syndrome. Seeing Wake getting banned will make me sad, but I whole-heartedly understand the decision. It's an absolute MONSTER of a Pokemon (and means I'll have to quit more games in-game lmao.) I'll have to wait and see what the results are.
 
Today the SV OU tiering council will be conducting a multi-step vote on Walking Wake.

The internal vote includes two prompts:
  • Do you want to quickban Walking Wake: yes or no
  • If “no”, do you want to suspect Walking Wake: yes or no
If the first question goes above our supermajority+ threshold (meaning at least 7/9 support, which is >2/3), then it will be quickbanned. If it does not, the second question will need a simple majority to trigger a prompt suspect of Walking Wake in SV OU. If neither threshold is hit, no action will occur.
I said this on twitter already, but I still am not sure if I agree with this decision just yet, I personally feel it's kind of manageable defensively.

I do, however, agree that I've been seeing every single Sun team in existence since Wake came out and while I don't think Wake itself is massively overcentralising, I'm already tired of seeing Sun teams.
 

awyp

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If you’ve played a large sample of games this week and think Garg is the most pressing topic in the metagame, then I think you may be playing a vastly different metagame from the one I am playing.
as the spokesman of Garganacl Action Council, I can say that Garganacl is a no problem mon as long as Walking Wake is in the meta.
 
Can you expand on this with some examples (specifically non-passive ones)?
NON-PASSIVE, no not really - only more defensive ones like discussed previously here, Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clod, Toxapex, Slowking. The only offensive ones are what Turtleye_ mentioned in +1 Moon and Valiant.

EDIT: I do want to clarify however, I do think Wake is REALLY good - I'm just unsure on whether it needs to be actioned yet.
 

Finchinator

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NON-PASSIVE, no not really - only more defensive ones like discussed previously here, Tera Fairy Water Absorb Clod, Toxapex, Slowking. The only offensive ones are what Turtleye_ mentioned in +1 Moon and Valiant.
So you have to either use a passive Pokemon, which forces a defensive and reactionary build to be reliable against it? That is the epitome of being problematic.

If it was less fast or incredibly fragile, maybe this would be more manageable. But it’s not.
 
So you have to either use a passive Pokemon, which forces a defensive and reactionary build to be reliable against it? That is the epitome of being problematic.
To be fair, I feel like this is also a testament to Clod being flexible in its usage as a defensive mon, although I do see your point here as well.
 
Can you expand on this with some examples (specifically non-passive ones)?
I mean, it's one of those weird threat mons where there ARE some checks to it, it doesn't really excuse its rudeness in power. All calcs are assuming outside of sun/Proto: Speed.

Tera Water/Fairy Water Absorb Clodsire is a good check to Specs. You can tank one Draco before kind of needing to Recover up (pre-Tera, if you go Fairy, otherwise always.) Hydro Steam is blanked and Flamethrower isn't too much of a threat minus 10% burn. But if it is the Expert Belt set, then you might have a harder time (depending upon if they don't use Water Tera and/or Tera Blast).
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 222-262 (48 - 56.7%) -- 38.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery (My own Clod set.)
244 SpA Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire: 148-175 (32 - 37.8%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Storm Drain Gastrodon is also a decent check to Specs Wake. Similar job to Clod, where you blank Hydro Steam, but also naturally blank Flamethrower (and burn if you're like me and run Cloak). Draco still chunks you, though.
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 252-297 (59.4 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Obviously, Gastro is best to come in on Specs Hydro/Flamethrower, but if it is the Expert Belt set, then Wake is still an annoyance.
244 SpA Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 244 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-199 (39.8 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Walking Wake is a check to itself (as unhealthy as that is) if they don't Draco Meteor you. Expert Belt set, however, beats itself.
Specs:
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Walking Wake: 54-64 (15.9 - 18.8%) -- possible 6HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Walking Wake: 708-834 (208.8 - 246%) -- guaranteed OHKO

EBelt:
244 SpA Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Walking Wake: 36-43 (10.6 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO
244 SpA Expert Belt Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Walking Wake: 569-670 (167.8 - 197.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Assault Vest Azumarill can check both variants pretty well, depending upon Tera, and threaten an OHKO right back. If the Wake is Tera Grass/Electric, then Azu is scared out and you're kind of in trouble.
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 132 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 65-77 (19 - 22.5%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 390-458 (115 - 135.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Defensively, that's about all I can really think of to check Walking Wake. Offensively, it is outran and made sad by Valiant, Moon, and Dragapult.

Also as I've stated before, I don't think it's fair to dump on ""passive"" mons. Just because they aren't powerhouses that fuel HO/BO, doesn't mean they're bad. A good portion of the time, they're the glue to a team.
 

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Also as I've stated before, I don't think it's fair to dump on ""passive"" mons. Just because they aren't powerhouses that fuel HO/BO, doesn't mean they're bad. A good portion of the time, they're the glue to a team.
That’s not the point. Clodsire, for example, is a very practical option on some teams and nobody dismisses that.

The point is that if only passive Pokemon can check or counter something, then certain types of teams are invalidated. Passive Pokemon like Gastrodon and Clodsire do not fit on offense, let alone hyper offense.

Revenge killing is a valuable tool, but there has to be more maneuverability if a Pokemon is this fast and accessible.

If a Pokemon limits the amount of viable archetypes and forces you to use one of a very small handful of Pokemon on each team, then it is broken by definition.
 
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