Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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By some miracle, I'm still around. I guess admins decided to not nuke me, or have other things on their hands.

Decided to poke my head in here while theorycrafting fun teams and grinding the Blissey raids. I want to talk about something we all love to deal with; Four Move Slot Syndrome (4MSS). One thing that I'm noticing here is that A LOT of Pokemon in this game, not even just in OU, are suffering from 4MSS. Especially popular Pokemon.

Dragonite? DD, Roost, ESpeed, EQ, Fire Punch, Hurricane, Outrage...
Iron Valiant? CC, Moonblast, Tbolt, Shadow Ball, Calm Mind, Knock Off...
Tusk and Treads? CC/Body Press, Headlong/EQ, Iron Head, Rocks, Spin, Knock Off, Volt Switch, Ice Spinner...

Even down in places like RU with Gardevoir! 4MSS seems to be quite abundant this generation. While having such expanded move pools is nice and all... Sometimes it feels a bit overwhelming to run into it so often.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
It became so widespread that is no longer a problem because it's on everybody, Moon, Glimmora, Corviknight, Gholdengo, Toxapex, Garganacl, clodsire, everybody sometimes wishes to have something more, at this point we all just praying that it doesn't have that move that is gonna fuck you

Unless you talk about Kingambit
SD + THE ONE PIECE = THE ONE PIECE IS REAL
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER? (SO HIGH)
OH OOOOOOOOOOOOH OH
OH OOOOOOOOOOOOH OH
OH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
 
Iron Valiant? CC, Moonblast, Tbolt, Shadow Ball, Calm Mind, Knock Off...
Valiant feels like less of a 4mss problem and more of a "I'm going to choose what beats me" problem. Different sets have different counters and as long as you have Moonblast/Spirit Break/Swords Dance you'll put in work. (and yes, I do mean you can run SD and 3 non-Fairy moves. It'll work, probably.)
Unless you talk about Kingambit
SD + THE ONE PIECE = THE ONE PIECE IS REAL
CAN WE GET MUCH HIGHER? (SO HIGH)
OH OOOOOOOOOOOOH OH
OH OOOOOOOOOOOOH OH
OH OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
One thing I love about Kingambit is how well it synergizes with Meowscarada.
Legault (Meowscarada) (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 160 HP / 96 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Leaf Storm
- Knock Off
+
Lloyd (Kingambit) (M) @ Black Glasses
Ability: Supreme Overlord
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Iron Head
- Kowtow Cleave
- Sucker Punch
(bonus points if you get the reference)
Meowscarada sets up Spikes, can sometimes even knock out Great Tusk (the only thing keeping Kingambit in check...) and then dies for that sweet supreme overlord boost. It's the same with every suicide lead, but I like Meowscarada for this role because hehe catboy + it's the fastest of them.
 
My esteemed brother in Christ Almighty, please avoid Reddit-tier "hateboner".
This is a meta discussion thread young King.
I come here periodically to express the aforementioned topic.

Please focus on the actual points I made- it was made simple for players to respond- I even numbered them for you.

Do you think Shed Tail is competitive?
How do you feel about Illusion?

Very, very simple stuff here.

When Tera is banned we can look back on these posts w fond memories and laugh at how people actually wanted this in the meta.

In the meantime, my brother in Christ who died for the world's sins, stick to the points made and address them correctly.
Do better. I'll show you how.

"decisions made by it's playerbase in a suspect test"
New toy syndrome and lack of foresight of average players. March 2023 if you think Tera is balanced and comp l2p, idk how else to put it.

"playing last gen OU or a different meta is better for you"
Why would I abandon a current meta that could be fixed by simply having another Tera suspect and a QB on Shed Tail?
Shed tail? NAH
Illusion. In lower tiers, yeah. In this power level of a tier, nope.

Also consider that tera is more balanced in lower tiers and banning tera up here would mean that lower tiers lose something balanced, hence why more people vote no-ban.
 
Valiant feels like less of a 4mss problem and more of a "I'm going to choose what beats me" problem. Different sets have different counters and as long as you have Moonblast/Spirit Break/Swords Dance you'll put in work. (and yes, I do mean you can run SD and 3 non-Fairy moves. It'll work, probably.)
To be fair, that still counts as 4MSS. You have so much you WANT to run, either for STAB or to beat what beats you, but can't fit it all on at once.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Walking Wake and Torkoal come out as gay, all other Pokemon are accepting but Garganacl is very homophobic.

How will this affect the OU metagame?
The OU council has to take a decision, on one hand having this on the tier would be an insult to LGBT people, and people start boycotting the site, on the other hand Garganacl helps stall and partners well with Toxapex, so they have to decide on what to do

On other sort of topics, I have been experimenting with Hatterene spreads

Hatterene @ Eject Button
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 88 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nuzzle
- Healing Wish
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam

The smogon set recommends 130, but I cannot see what is the worst of that, so I have been going with this, 56 Spe is in case there are 4 speed investment base 106 mons (trapping pex and garga) and the rest is SpD for more fatness on the Hatterene, what do you think
 
The OU council has to take a decision, on one hand having this on the tier would be an insult to LGBT people, and people start boycotting the site, on the other hand Garganacl helps stall and partners well with Toxapex, so they have to decide on what to do

On other sort of topics, I have been experimenting with Hatterene spreads

Hatterene @ Eject Button
Ability: Magic Bounce
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 248 HP / 116 Def / 88 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
- Nuzzle
- Healing Wish
- Psychic
- Dazzling Gleam

The smogon set recommends 130, but I cannot see what is the worst of that, so I have been going with this, 56 Spe is in case there are 4 speed investment base 106 mons (trapping pex and garga) and the rest is SpD for more fatness on the Hatterene, what do you think
Yeah, I think you're gonna need way more than 56 speed evs lol. The standard might be 36 speed evs on Garg / Pex, though I could be wrong.
 

1LDK

It's never going to get better
is a Top Team Rater
Yeah, I think you're gonna need way more than 56 speed evs lol. The standard might be 36 speed evs on Garg / Pex, though I could be wrong.
52 Spe out speeds base 106, since I have no idea what the standard 130 Spe is for, I went with 56, should have write it better
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
Yeah, I think you're gonna need way more than 56 speed evs lol. The standard might be 36 speed evs on Garg / Pex, though I could be wrong.
The thing with Speed EVs on defensive, slow mons is that they are a huge guessing game during teambuilding, since you don't really know how much your opponent will invest into them to outspeed their checks. You basically end up having a set "that outspeeds your set which outspeeds my set that outspeeds your set".
My preferred Hat set has been 200 HP / 252+ Def / 56 Spe (I run CM 3 attacks), and 80% of the times it does end up outspeeding mons like Pex, Clod, Garg and Dondozo. The only real problem is Amoongus, which often times has enough EVs to outspeed Pex and Hatterene and can threaten them with Spore and Sludge Bomb, respectively. So 1LDK my suggestion is to consider which set you wanna run and which teammates you wanna partner Hat with; for instance, if you have a Gholdengo then Amoongus won't really be a problem regardless, and therefore you can afford to be slower than it. Judging by the set you posted, with Healing Wish and Nuzzle, you probably do wanna outspeed those mons though, so it would be better to do as Magcargo said and put some more Speed EVs into it.
 
Dondozo gets Murdered by Grass Knot users, Specially if they have STAB.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 758-894 (150.3 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 506-596 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Iron Valiant Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 524-618 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mold Breaker can be used to get past Unaware

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Hawlucha Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Grass Dondozo: 600-708 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Dondozo gets Murdered by Grass Knot users, Specially if they have STAB.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 758-894 (150.3 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 506-596 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Iron Valiant Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 524-618 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mold Breaker can be used to get past Unaware

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Hawlucha Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Grass Dondozo: 600-708 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Yes, the physical wall weak to grass will be OHKO'd by a 120bp special grass move. The wall that relies on unaware to defeat setup users can also struggle against an already set up mold breaker pokemon that uses a 120bp move that's super effective against it, especially when it's not invested in defense.

Unfortunately, I am not quite sure what your point is here, as these are not situations where Dondozo is expected to function well. Nobody has ever argued that it'd be good against choice specs Decidueye or a set up mold breaker Hawlucha when it's tera grass.
 
Yes, the physical wall weak to grass will be OHKO'd by a 120bp special grass move. The wall that relies on unaware to defeat setup users can also struggle against an already set up mold breaker pokemon that uses a 120bp move that's super effective against it, especially when it's not invested in defense.

Unfortunately, I am not quite sure what your point is here, as these are not situations where Dondozo is expected to function well. Nobody has ever argued that it'd be good against choice specs Decidueye or a set up mold breaker Hawlucha when it's tera grass.
He has a habit of posting irrelevant or nonsense comments like this whenever in this thread. One you can find is Competitive Choice Specs Kilowattrel vs Annihilape.

I don't want to ascribe trolling but the main factor is almost nothing I have seen from this account in this thread has forwarded discussion meaningfully
 
Dondozo gets Murdered by Grass Knot users, Specially if they have STAB.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 758-894 (150.3 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 506-596 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Iron Valiant Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 524-618 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mold Breaker can be used to get past Unaware

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Hawlucha Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Grass Dondozo: 600-708 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
In other news, the sky is blue, except when it's cloudy.
 

awyp

'Alexa play Ladyfingers by Herb Alpert'
is a Top Tutoris a Top Team Rateris a Community Leaderis a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
RMT Leader
I've been running Mimikyu and been having some success with it, it doesn't hit like a brick but when it comes to taking any hit with Disguise and just responding with a LO Play Rough unboosted to something like Roaring Moon or Walking Wake it does a decent chunk. Jolly is to outspeed Great Tusk / Baxi. Will be testing out more and come back with a final report but so far so good.

:Mimikyu:
(Mimikyu) @ Life Orb
Ability: Disguise
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Shadow Sneak
 

YNM

formerly yNot Mence
is a Tiering Contributor
When will they release Chesnaught? If they focus on Starters bring the actually good and defensive one :puff:
Oh boy 1LDK will bust one out after this comment

Anyways, imo Decidueye is also another pretty cheesy pick in OU and I've yet to face a decent set on the ladder. I'm a bit more interested in the Hisuian version, but I doubt it'll stay revelant for long as well.
 
Dondozo gets Murdered by Grass Knot users, Specially if they have STAB.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 758-894 (150.3 - 177.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Decidueye Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 506-596 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Grass Iron Valiant Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 524-618 (103.9 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Mold Breaker can be used to get past Unaware

+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Hawlucha Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tera Grass Dondozo: 600-708 (119 - 140.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Why is Dondozo Terastalizing into Grass if the opposing team has Hawlucha? And who is running SD Adamant Hawlucha in the first place?
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
To avoid this being a one-liner: I don't really think regular Samurott has anything going for it in OU. Wake me up when H-Samurott drops, because that's a mon actually worth discussing once it drops.
I dunno, H-Sam seems pretty mediocre. Once you get past free Spikes from Ceaseless Edge, you're looking at a Pokémon with meh stats that's a bit too comparable to Gallade. Sure, H-Sam has a better typing and access to two STAB priority moves, but it's rocking the same role as "Sharpness coverage abuser" that's more of a cool thing in concept than execution.
 
I dunno, H-Sam seems pretty mediocre. Once you get past free Spikes from Ceaseless Edge, you're looking at a Pokémon with meh stats that's a bit too comparable to Gallade. Sure, H-Sam has a better typing and access to two STAB priority moves, but it's rocking the same role as "Sharpness coverage abuser" that's more of a cool thing in concept than execution.
Well, other Hazard setters when they see a Hatterene have to think whether to attack or set the Hazard. Hisuian Samurott doesn't have this problem and can do both. In fact, it could even run some bulky spread or even use Restalk in order to last longer and ensure all 3 Spikes layers are set while doing some chip damage.
Hazards are broken, so something that guarantees setting them is and will always be viable, unless some other Mon better than Hisuian Samurott is released with the same move.
This also applies to Kleavor and Stone Axe and to some extent to Glimmora and Toxic Debris (though Toxic Spikes are less reliable than Rocks and Spikes due to Grounded Poisons being a thing).
 
echoing what eeveeto said I could see av sets being a thing to handle dhengo, and the other ghosts. It’s got knock off which we’ve seen goes a long way this gen and stab sucker punch ain’t too bad either coming off 108 base attack, it will definitely find a niche when it gets dropped
 
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