Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Eeveeto said:
^Honestly, I have to agree with the above guy on the meta being degenerate and too offensive. Right now, if there is a Suspect, I would be voting Ban on almost any offensive threat except Shed Tail, regardledd of the perceived brokeness just to make the meta have less threats. For example I don't consider Volcarona broken, yet right now I would still Ban it in order to have it easier preparing for other big threats. Same for other Mons like Baxc or Iron Valiant.

However, the one unhealthy threat I would be banning for its own impact, is Gholdengo. At this point it not only makes Hazard Stacking the dominant strategy but also forces every team to have at least one Mon that should do the following:
-Be faster than Gholdengo.
-Be able to KO it.
-Be able to still KO it if it randomly Teras into the Flying type.
-Be able to live 2 Shadow Balls from Non Specs sets at least.
-Be able to live one non Specs Make It Rain.
So, in practice this means Balance teams are almost dead. Gholdengo forces teams to either be extremely offensive (not only Hazard Stack, different Weathers, Shed Tail or just random combination of set-up sweepers) or use that one Blissey Stall (extremely passive team).
Yes, we have Tusk to spin, or Treads, but both have 1000 other tasks to do apart from predicting Gholdengo. In fact, defensive Tusk for me is terrible due to not always being able to even kill Ghold, while taking a lot from its moves (offensive one is really good though) . Hawlucha can Defog on Gholdengo, but it does 0 to it and allows Ghold to freely come and use Trick/TW/NP/Specs nuke. Talonflame scares it out too, but it's almost unviable outside of Stall teams.
Of course, saving Balance teams is not really an argument to ban something, but I have a feeling Corviknight specifically has to be a good Mon for the Meta to be healthy. There need to be bulky Mons that check Stuff and at the same time are not passive momentum sinkers for the meta to be enjoyable (at least for me, I know other like a lot just clicking the strongest moves and having 20 turns battles).

This is personal opinion that you can agree or not. I will only be answering to replies/quotes if I think some interesting point is provided, cause if I answered to everyone who disagrees with me, I would spend the entire day writing on this thread.
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If you ask me, I think the meta has evolved and learned how to adapt to Gholdy, he's amazing but he has a decent amount of checks in counters (GT, Gambit, Threats, Meows, Gren, Volcarona, Moon, Cinde, Pult, etc). He's meta-defining? For sure because he does what no one else can do but he's not centralizing to the point of saying I need to carry this exact mon to check it because at the end, we always have a ghost, dark, fire or ground type in our team for coverage, not just to take care of it.
 
UnusualBoy said:
If you ask me, I think the meta has evolved and learned how to adapt to Gholdy, he's amazing but he has a decent amount of checks in counters (GT, Gambit, Threats, Meows, Gren, Volcarona, Moon, Cinde, Pult, etc). He's meta-defining? For sure because he does what no one else can do but he's not centralizing to the point of saying I need to carry this exact mon to check it because at the end, we always have a ghost, dark, fire or ground type in our team for coverage, not just to take care of it.
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This, Gholdengo really doesn't change much the hazards control, the only one who truly gets nulify by Gholdengo is just Corvi, even Talonflame who is a deffoger can pressure Gholdengo (I don't get why it isn't used outside stall, it looks solid in this meta IMO).
If anything, I would say that tera ghost helps hazards stack more than Gholdengo, the ability to turn every mon in a spin blocker is great, while helps to check stuff like Dragonite better.
 
I’m seeing a resurgence of “ban Ghold” posts. I have a feeling many of the people here forgot how awful the hazard stacking metas in Gen 4 OU and Gen 5 NU are. I’m gonna be repeating myself alot here

In Gen 4 OU, the only notable spinners were Starmie who hasn’t been seeing that much usage in modern DPP as a spinner, Tentacruel who only fits on fat, Hitmontop who only fits on very specific stall teams, and Forretress who also only fits on specific teams.

Gen 5 NU was even worse. The two best spinners weren’t even that good. Torkoal and fucking Wartortle. Thats it.

Now back to Gen 9. We not only have Boots which y’all mfers complained about killing the hazard metagame last gen, but a spinner in Tusks who is one of if not the best pkmn in the format. Even without Ghold it would still be at that level. I have said this before and I’ll say it again.

It is entirely possible to run a strong team without hazard removal. Several generations have proved that. Anyone remember that Clef/Ferro/Koko/Tini team everyone spammed last gen? Same concept. Superman teams in ADV? Same concept.The concept is strengthened even further with the addition of Boots.

As for Ghold itself, it is checked by Gambit, Iron Moth, Moon, Volc, Clod, Ting-Lu, and Tera Water Dirge. We also can’t forget we’re dealing with a mon with 84 speed. This ain’t no Chien Pao situation where not much can check it nor rkill it. 19 Pokemon in the OU meta outspeed it, some of them being checks to it like Moth.

I already said most of this in earlier posts so you can check out this one for example.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-metagame-discussion.3710915/post-9478697

TL;DR: Ghold is fine, WW and Tera aren’t.
 
658Greninja said:
I’m seeing a resurgence of “ban Ghold” posts. I have a feeling many of the people here forgot how awful the hazard stacking metas in Gen 4 OU and Gen 5 NU are. I’m gonna be repeating myself alot here

In Gen 4 OU, the only notable spinners were Starmie who hasn’t been seeing that much usage in modern DPP as a spinner, Tentacruel who only fits on fat, Hitmontop who only fits on very specific stall teams, and Forretress who also only fits on specific teams.

Gen 5 NU was even worse. The two best spinners weren’t even that good. Torkoal and fucking Wartortle. Thats it.

Now back to Gen 9. We not only have Boots which y’all mfers complained about killing the hazard metagame last gen, but a spinner in Tusks who is one of if not the best pkmn in the format. Even without Ghold it would still be at that level. I have said this before and I’ll say it again.

It is entirely possible to run a strong team without hazard removal. Several generations have proved that. Anyone remember that Clef/Ferro/Koko/Tini team everyone spammed last gen? Same concept. Superman teams in ADV? Same concept.The concept is strengthened even further with the addition of Boots.

As for Ghold itself, it is checked by Gambit, Iron Moth, Moon, Volc, Clod, Ting-Lu, and Tera Water Dirge. We also can’t forget we’re dealing with a mon with 84 speed. This ain’t no Chien Pao situation where not much can check it nor rkill it. 19 Pokemon in the OU meta outspeed it, some of them being checks to it like Moth.

I already said most of this in earlier posts so you can check out this one for example.

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-metagame-discussion.3710915/post-9478697

TL;DR: Ghold is fine, WW and Tera aren’t.
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You'll find no disagreement from me on the bolded. Walking Wake is a stupid mon that forces defensive mons to blow their Tera after a bit of chip without commiting to using Tera itself, which skews risk/reward heavily in favour of the Walking Wake user. I will never agree that it is healthy for the meta in spite of it reducing Garganacl usage.

I really dislike Tera for allowing one to flip counterplay on the fly, which should not happen in a competitive meta. Things such as Chien-Pao, Espathra, and Volcarona would not be broken without Tera.
 
UnusualBoy said:
In favor of banning Misses Wake if that means saving Gren from dropping to UU :psysly:
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Outside sun I can't see a reason why use Wake on your team so I don't see it as Gren's competition. In my opinion the one who is truly hurting Gren's usage is Meow, even if the cat doesn't even run protean that single point of speed what makes it faster than Green truly makes a big difference.
 
UnusualBoy said:
More reasons to hate her! Ban the cat!
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Bro why you wanna ban the hyper sexualized human heteromorfic furry bait cat girl, don't you see that banning it would make the degenerate fanbase go away? (one of the biggest contributors of ratings and merchandise sales btw)

anyways since the main reason to make this post is for the question above (and one-liners are illegal), I'm gonna make some irrelevant filler about the current state of the metagame, don't pay too much attention to this

:Iron Valiant: My lawyer has advised me to not continue with this opinion

:Volcarona: THE CHEESE INCARNATED, it wins games by ONLY the sheer bullshit your mind has to deal with in team preview, with either WoW or random tera blast moment or Giga Drain spam, or just quiver dance spam, its not problematic because in general, the best way to beat it stays the say, strong physical attacks and pray to god to not proc Flame Body, but yeah, cheese as shit

:Baxcalibur: Oh man, this thing, has a 99% chance of dying the turn it gets into the field and another 99% chance on the one DD, but man, if this gets going, it really fucking mops the floor with you, and choice band sets are another healthy amount of fantastic trolling

:Roaring Moon: Not a problem in the slightest, unironically magical wuaifu meow beats it with play rough (use play rough more on your meow sets) and as long as stuff like donzo, corvi or valiant still exist, RM dd set is easy to counter, it is scary tho. As for band or scarf, they are fun, use tera bug, to remember the great memes we have made across the generations, and if you don't, well, idk

:Gholdengo: Centrilizes the game in the hazard game, but they way it does it from the underworld like the fucking movie mafias, its not broken, but it needs to always stay on the radar because this thing alone has changed the meta (corviknight is still ass)

Bonus Ducks

:Garganacl: It's broken, but it checks broken wake, so we need to keep it, both are broken, yet I feel like the only one who thinks both are broken, this makes no one happy and that's okay

:Dragapult: Its not broken, but It's very easy to lose to it, but its more of a "WHY GHOSTS ARE SO BROKEN" reason than Dragapult itself, specs are all around reliable but banded and dragon dance are more of flashy showoff and those can lead to disaster faster

tera: I have grown fond of it, I still think it needs to go when HOME arrives but man, this meta has been so refreshing and unique with all the colorful possibility that makes me appreciate it, I will say that it has given me and taken victories away from me, it's fair enough on where it gives and takes, and in this particular meta, I think its balance, I'm gonna miss it when it gets banned, but that's something I have accepted for the good of the meta
 
pex.JPG

Council finally doing the right thing smh my head....
 
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YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS I CAN FINALLY SPAM TOXAPEX UWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWUWU


anyways, you go ou council ig?
 
oh no not april fools day again

now they're gonna bring out the toxapexes and lechonks... and with the species clause at risk of being lifted nobody wants that.

We must rally against these forces to keep the meta safe from their insanity!
 
Ruft said:
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/np-sv-ou-suspect-process-round-4-99-luftballons.3719008/
How will this shake up the metagame?
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I am grateful the council finally understands how ridiculous this Species clause was. Nothing but an antiquated holdover from official Nintendo metagames, similar to item clause. Just like item clause, Species clause arbitrarily limits creativity in the builder and eliminates many potential strategies and options for the playerbase. I for one will be voting to remove species clause once I get reqs w/ my team of 3 Volcaronas.
 
Okay enough jokes, no more April Fools bullshit.

Volcarona needs to get suspect tested. As it being my favorite Pokémon in the last 4 gens, tera has put it completely over the top. I literally sweep with mono attack on a whole team that resists fire and still sweep, people think that there's only a couple of sets that are out there, but people get curious and just start messing around. I'm not gonna give out the set I've been messing around with but it's completely broken and not fair IMO, as long as you abuse Tera and have Boots you create a legal cheat code IMO on top of sticking with the Fiery Dance 50% Sp.Att increase. There are multiple mons that learn Quiver Dance but none of them are as bulky and built that well to abuse it based on typing. Yes Dragonite walls it pretty well but risking Extreme Speed Flame Body burn is a bit unfair. There's a counter to every set I agree, but the issue is the versatility of the various sets being ran, I've seen a total of 10 sets which is a bit much (and no niche stuff), legitimate sets that can go up on the Smogon Dex.

:sv/volcarona:
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 108 Def / 152 Spe (you can go fatter tbh)
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Fiery Dance
- Morning Sun
- Will-O-Wisp
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk
Timid Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Flamethrower
- Bug Buzz
- Tera Blast
Volcarona @ Focus Sash
Ability: Swarm
Tera Type: Bug / Psychic
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Psychic
- Fiery Dance
- Bug Buzz
Volcarona @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Flame Body
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Morning Sun
- Fiery Dance
- Will-O-Wisp

I'm not gonna keep posting, but you have Offensive Hurricane (Tera Flying) under rain + Fire move to combat opposing sun teams, you Have Bulky Substitute with Lefties / Heavy Duty Boots to prevent status and get free turns on Quiver setup, you have a Fire Spin trapper set, you have Endure Weakness Policy + QD, you have Tailwind setter, and the sets become endless with the different Tera Blast / Tera capabilities.

So show of hands can I get some opinions on Volc?
 
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