Oh my Arceus can we please talk about anything else
I wonder how useful Armarouge is outside of Sun or Psyterrain. Not much in the tier can confidently switch into Specs Psychic/Armor Cannon/Energy Ball/Aura Sphere. Maybe Scarf has potential too?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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I wonder how useful Armarouge is outside of Sun or Psyterrain. Not much in the tier can confidently switch into Specs Psychic/Armor Cannon/Energy Ball/Aura Sphere. Maybe Scarf has potential too?
Oh my Arceus can we please talk about anything else
I wonder how useful Armarouge is outside of Sun or Psyterrain. Not much in the tier can confidently switch into Specs Psychic/Armor Cannon/Energy Ball/Aura Sphere. Maybe Scarf has potential too?
It's an ugly Mon, so I hope people realize it's also bad and it falls to ZU or it somehow becomes broken and it's banned.
Now, one thing I tried with this ugly Mon is Trick Room + Weakness Policy. It's bulky enough to wistand some super effective hits and set TR, after which it goes wild. Now, the actual problem is building a good Trick Room team, which for now I didn't have success with.
Taunt + bulk up ate defensive teams which couldn't do nothing but boost rage fist, with the only consistent counterplay was red card which wasn't as common back then. Without tera it would be easier to handle with offense, but offense was already the archetype that had a better match up since it was just mattter of being able to 2hko it. With one or two mons.
ehhhhhhhh... while Garg and Moon are still viable in a post Tera meta, this one not so much. Ceru is intensely Tera dependant, and in its base form is outclassed as a moth check by Skeledirge.
I think you've misunderstood what people mean. Yes these mons are viable without Tera (except ceru cough), but they go from just great to being absurd because of Tera as they freely switch types without consequence and invalidate counterplay. These pokemon gain new sets and inflate the list of threats you have to account for in a way that's arguably unreasonable. Also, while Tera helps it, a non terad Dragonite is very capable of making progress and its base typing is quite practical.
Good thing no one is claiming this? the claim is always towards Dragonite.
Lets try to stick to relevant calcs in OU. Its rather unrealistic for Inteleon to get to +5 in practice without being challenged by a bulky water beforehand. Maybe you can try to post a full set that is working for you?
But yeah please lets try to stop posting calcs like this one.
That post was 99% a joke one.
Lucario doesn't have the bulk nor ability to set up a boost before e-speeding like multiscale roost dnite(no complaints just stating the obvious)
No I understood what was being said, because what I quoted was exactly my point (which is agreeing with your quote.) Volcarona has been seen in OU since Gen 5 and despite it's flaws is still an exceptional Pokemon. Its one of the few true abusers of the mechanic rather than user. If tera was banned, it would still be an OU mon at this time and probably would be just as it always is.
I know no one is claiming this, but that is my point. My point here was that while both Dragonite and Lucario run the Tera Normal + extreme Speed combo, dragonite is much better and the data shows it... which says more about Dragonite than the combo. Dragonite is just a better mon and can perform this because of an excellent ability and set up potential.
See above
this person only posts posts like these though
Thank you so much! BoltBeam STAB coverage on the physical end sounds so sick; for some reason, the thought of running Tera Blast completely slipped my mind with Beartic and I really wish it hadn't, I'm gonna try workshopping this variant too - for the final slot I might lean towards Close Combat but I'm also gonna try Liquidation
Except "Urshifu would not be broken without Wicked Blow" is 100% theorymon, and a ban would open the door for low ladder whiners to say "ban kowtow cleave" "ban salt cure" etc all day every day and we'd be forced to entertain it. Tiering is a process not just an end result and one that requires community input, and suspect testing every single signature move on every single mon is stupid
Urshifu without Wicked Blow would be STAB Close Combat and Crunch off 130 base attack. It would be on par with Latios, Terrakion, Tapu Lele, Karatna, Garchomp etc in terms of raw damage output. It would be a significant debuff to the point where it would functionally just be "strong Close Combat + good neutral coverage" which includes like 20 other fighting types. Shit like Urshifu, Dragonite, Tapu Fini etc switch in for free. Wicked Blow turns "switch in on fighting resist + crunch neutrality" into "do not switch in".
I don't think it's a stretch to say Wicked Blow was what broke Urshifu. Just because someone hasn't 100% tested something doesn't make it 100% theorymon. Some things are just common sense. That said Smogon's policy is designed to make things sensible and simple. Ban one Pokémon > Ban ability / move / item > ban multiple Pokémon. Easy.
I actually agree with your points but the term "we haven't experience it thus it is automatically theorymon and thus irrelevant" gets tossed around as a way to discredit people who have actually played this dumb game for decades and is a terrible logical fallacy. Yes sure I've never tested Wicked-Blow-less Urshifu but I've played against plenty of Pokémon with 120 and 80 BP STABs and handled them fine.
We already know Shed Tail is broken on multiple Pokemon, even ones that would be low tier without it. We know it breaks at least a few Pokemon, so why not ban the obvious broken move under Baton Pass clause and move on with our lives? Not everything has to be a difficult process.
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In a Kingambit Meta Iron Hands is underrated. However, I think my set is kinda garbage:
Iron Hands @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
Rocky Helmet to punish U-Turns, Resttalk to survive as you have no Leftovers for healing. As long as I have this one around no set of the King can destroy me.
(But please, give me a better set.)
Iron Hands @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
Rocky Helmet to punish U-Turns, Resttalk to survive as you have no Leftovers for healing. As long as I have this one around no set of the King can destroy me.
(But please, give me a better set.)
Not really. The point is competitive Pokémon have been mechanically incredibly similar since gen 4, or at least gen 5. Anyone reading this can grab a BW2 rain offense team and win some games on the ladder even if you've never played before.
While each gen is unique it isn't so incredibly different that we can't learn from the past to improve the tiering process for the future. Replace Urshifu with Shed Tail, Baton Pass, Double Team, Shadow Tag etc. At a certain point we just have to say "this is bullshit, we've done this before, never again".
Im gonna copy past this from the viability rankings post i made some days ago
from C+ to either B- or BIron Hands @ Punching Glove
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 96 HP / 252 Atk / 160 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch
I have been using this set, 96 HP ensures you live a banded play rough from the meowster at full, and 160 speed is to trip sub dirge in an emergency, and can potentially trip corvs who invest for gambit. On this less fast-paced bulky meta, is a cool mon that can almost always kill a thing or two on his way down, tera water is cool it helps with general tankiness, and in this case is cool because Drain Punch + Punching Glove means Garga cannot set up shit in front of you. I think it's more viable than Quaquaval tbh, never been sold on the mon
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You have enough survival for a kingambit attack, and even if he teras you're still fucking him over, honestly, hands is not too bad
Right so let's get away from the Wicked Blow v Shed Tail topic that has long worn out its stay. It hasn't been all that productive. Instead I'd actually likely to bring up something I've been thinking about for a while now and I'm curious what other people think.
Well firstly, double hazards sets are bad. Giving up two slots leaves only one for EQ and a utility move like whirlwind. This greatly limits flexibility and pigeonholes how the Mon is used in battle, leaving it more passive and exploitable. I think single hazard sets are better when paired with a secondary hazard setting teammate (thus usually setting spikes since it gets so many switch in opportunities vs threats like Gholdengo and Dragapult, among others). I think in this way, having an extra moveslot gives it the ability to do more than just switch in and lay hazards or faze.
Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground / Ghost / Poison
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 100 SpD
Carefyl Nature
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam / Taunt / Stone Edge / Whirlwind
- Ruination
Not sold on how to exactly split up the EVs yet but... This is how I feel: Ruination is a highly underappreciated disruptive move against many of Lu's switch ins, and can cause a surprising amount of trouble. The best immediate example is Great Tusk, who can go from fully healthy to notably weakened and thus more abusable by teammates like your own Great Tusk. RotomW similarly doesn't enjoy losing so much health and thus becoming less able to check what it's put on a team to check, like Dragonite.
Beyond Spikes, Ruination and EQ, the last move is very open. Heavy Slam is nice in an emergency to check Iron Valiant, but also notably lets TingLu lure and beat Hatterene switching in through Ruination+Heavy, letting it spike more freely. Taunt has deceptive value by shutting down slower mons like Clodsire and Pex and letting Lu spike. Taunt also lets it check Curse Dondozo between Ruination and appropriate Tera type (needs Tera mind you but a nice option if your team lacks a more efficient way). Stone Edge can help flip script against Tera flying Gholdengo and threaten pre Tera Volcarona, and Whirlwind is nice if you need a safe phasing option. And Tera choice I think is ultimately team dependant.
Anyways this is just spitballing ideas and thoughts I've sat on for a few days but I am interested to hear what other people think of Ting-Lu and if they've found other ways to use and build it.
Ting-Lu
I think it's fair to say Ting-Lu is a rather iconic pokemon in SV OU thus far. A no nonsense hazard setter that leverages huge bulk to help pivot around big threats. We've seen its usage slow down notably since the early days where it was REALLY common, but it's still very much prominent. Some attribute its lower usage a flaw, its passivity and lack of recovery, which can be taken advantage of. I agree with both. Mons like Great Tusk and Hatterene are able to stifle hazard setting from Lu, especially the latter. While even Corv can defog hazards if the Lu user lacks a Gholdengo to block it. Now strong balance teams like Shark 6 employ it to good use, so the Mon is absolutely still good but I think it's a bit less straightforward. What do I mean?Well firstly, double hazards sets are bad. Giving up two slots leaves only one for EQ and a utility move like whirlwind. This greatly limits flexibility and pigeonholes how the Mon is used in battle, leaving it more passive and exploitable. I think single hazard sets are better when paired with a secondary hazard setting teammate (thus usually setting spikes since it gets so many switch in opportunities vs threats like Gholdengo and Dragapult, among others). I think in this way, having an extra moveslot gives it the ability to do more than just switch in and lay hazards or faze.
Ting-Lu @ Leftovers
Ability: Vessel of Ruin
Tera Type: Ground / Ghost / Poison
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 100 SpD
Carefyl Nature
- Spikes
- Earthquake
- Heavy Slam / Taunt / Stone Edge / Whirlwind
- Ruination
Not sold on how to exactly split up the EVs yet but... This is how I feel: Ruination is a highly underappreciated disruptive move against many of Lu's switch ins, and can cause a surprising amount of trouble. The best immediate example is Great Tusk, who can go from fully healthy to notably weakened and thus more abusable by teammates like your own Great Tusk. RotomW similarly doesn't enjoy losing so much health and thus becoming less able to check what it's put on a team to check, like Dragonite.
Beyond Spikes, Ruination and EQ, the last move is very open. Heavy Slam is nice in an emergency to check Iron Valiant, but also notably lets TingLu lure and beat Hatterene switching in through Ruination+Heavy, letting it spike more freely. Taunt has deceptive value by shutting down slower mons like Clodsire and Pex and letting Lu spike. Taunt also lets it check Curse Dondozo between Ruination and appropriate Tera type (needs Tera mind you but a nice option if your team lacks a more efficient way). Stone Edge can help flip script against Tera flying Gholdengo and threaten pre Tera Volcarona, and Whirlwind is nice if you need a safe phasing option. And Tera choice I think is ultimately team dependant.
Anyways this is just spitballing ideas and thoughts I've sat on for a few days but I am interested to hear what other people think of Ting-Lu and if they've found other ways to use and build it.
Truly a shameful behaviour, however... people haven't mentioned Zygardo and Dogarde, they are literally the same mon, no ability, same typing, same movepool, the only thing that differentiates them is the stats spread. That example shows how a mon is OP not for singular factor but the sum of them since even if Dogarde still got coil, dragon dance and TA it wasn't nearly as good like Zygarde 50%.
honestly, it doesn't sound too ridiculous when you remember that it only takes one swords dance and one well-timed fell stinger to reach that, neither of which your opponent is likely to predict. it's a far cry from optimal and probably shouldn't be used on serious teams (if you're using setup with inteleon, try focus energy instead), but i don't think it's as unrealistic as you say
I believe inteleon lost focus energy unfortunately
god i hate living in the present
Yup, literally it’s only niche over gren and it lost it, what a sad unfortunate Pokémon lmao. Hypergoons is pretty memey usually but fell stinger seems like an actually heat set
well, its spa is significantly higher, so maybe it could serve as a water-type specs user who's slower but still fast and can punch holes in opposing teams harder than gr- oh wait we have one of those already
well, it still learns air slash, so at least it'll still have a niche in randbats where it can use max airst- oh right
…uh… snipe shot can still crit things sometimes?
why is this the mon they chose to release
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It's not a complex definition, it's literally the definition of the two words. A move/ability is inherently broken if it is capable of creating uncompetitive conditions in and of itself regardless of the other attributes of its users/abusers. This isn't a new idea. It's why we don't have Ninetales + Diglett cores in BW OU. It's hard to argue an offensive move could meet this criteria, other than something luck based and stat agnostic like OHKO moves.
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