SV UU Metagame Discussion - Teal Mask Edition

[ThatOneApple]

PUT THIS THING BACK WHERE IT CAME FROM OR SO HELP ME
This thing is just dumb, it does the exact same things as pre dlc except its even more stupid due to rising to OU and not being that great anymore. The other priority we have just doesnt threaten it that much even at -1. While you may be able to just not give it the boost by getting a hazard up and getting something threatening in on it, but it has two workarounds for that. 1) The HO teams its on tend to put a lot of effort into denying hazards, usually to enough success that ledge is able to at least get in before hazards go up, and 2) if push comes to shove, it can just tera, the most common one is fairy, as it allows to turn the tables on scale shot trying to nab a speed boost and a kill at the same time, instead allowing ledge to get +2 attack (and chomp cant even use its speed advantage to pressure ledge as odds are its gonna live and get +2 speed and make matters worse. Long story short, I really do not think its presence is healthy, get it away.


Just overall annoying, the things that check it are subject to losing to different tera types and move sets (example being choice scarf getting dumpstered by tera steel kommo-o). The things that do check it semi consistently like really arent particularly great and needing to use them is just bleh. Overall negative presence, think the tier is better without it.


he amount of options rain has for abusers that peli easily gets in with u turn is really annoying to prep for, can have , , or for physical attackers, and , , , or even or for special attackers. Now while the physical attackers have relatively similar checks, the special attackers cause an issue for me, as they all have various different checks that can be annoying to prep for. Idk if i want it banned 100% but idk if its a good presence for the tier.

it just feels super fishy, it can run so many different sets and ev spreads, yet has a lot of checks. However, checking all the shenanigans hands can pull can feel really annoying, especially considering its still able to live for a very long time with wish support from to constantly be a force to be worried about. Overall i dont hate it as much as last time it dropped but i dont like it still.

, the scale shot set is kinda what makes me dislike this mon, normally youd be able to revenge it with or scarf , but it can just... tera... and clobber those. This leaves the only reliable counterplay to be defensive. is an ok answer with foul play, but its kinda passive outside of foul play, making it super easy to switch into and thus chomp can easily just leave and cause problems later. Theres but that has similar issues to mandi, plus it just becomes fodder to the occasional tera fire chomp, or just gets nuked by iron head. The most reliable counterplay usually just eats up tera which kinda sucks.

and
Im lumping these two together because idk if theyre really that crazy, garg is annoying but thats kinda the extent of it. Maybe theyll be more stupid when the meta slows down but as of now they feel mostly fine

 

[Negative Charge]

PUT THIS THING BACK WHERE IT CAME FROM OR SO HELP ME
This thing is just dumb, it does the exact same things as pre dlc except its even more stupid due to rising to OU and not being that great anymore. The other priority we have just doesnt threaten it that much even at -1. While you may be able to just not give it the boost by getting a hazard up and getting something threatening in on it, but it has two workarounds for that. 1) The HO teams its on tend to put a lot of effort into denying hazards, usually to enough success that ledge is able to at least get in before hazards go up, and 2) if push comes to shove, it can just tera, the most common one is fairy, as it allows to turn the tables on scale shot trying to nab a speed boost and a kill at the same time, instead allowing ledge to get +2 attack (and chomp cant even use its speed advantage to pressure ledge as odds are its gonna live and get +2 speed and make matters worse. Long story short, I really do not think its presence is healthy, get it away.


Just overall annoying, the things that check it are subject to losing to different tera types and move sets (example being choice scarf getting dumpstered by tera steel kommo-o). The things that do check it semi consistently like really arent particularly great and needing to use them is just bleh. Overall negative presence, think the tier is better without it.


he amount of options rain has for abusers that peli easily gets in with u turn is really annoying to prep for, can have , , or for physical attackers, and , , , or even or for special attackers. Now while the physical attackers have relatively similar checks, the special attackers cause an issue for me, as they all have various different checks that can be annoying to prep for. Idk if i want it banned 100% but idk if its a good presence for the tier.

it just feels super fishy, it can run so many different sets and ev spreads, yet has a lot of checks. However, checking all the shenanigans hands can pull can feel really annoying, especially considering its still able to live for a very long time with wish support from to constantly be a force to be worried about. Overall i dont hate it as much as last time it dropped but i dont like it still.

, the scale shot set is kinda what makes me dislike this mon, normally youd be able to revenge it with or scarf , but it can just... tera... and clobber those. This leaves the only reliable counterplay to be defensive. is an ok answer with foul play, but its kinda passive outside of foul play, making it super easy to switch into and thus chomp can easily just leave and cause problems later. Theres but that has similar issues to mandi, plus it just becomes fodder to the occasional tera fire chomp, or just gets nuked by iron head. The most reliable counterplay usually just eats up tera which kinda sucks.

and
Im lumping these two together because idk if theyre really that crazy, garg is annoying but thats kinda the extent of it. Maybe theyll be more stupid when the meta slows down but as of now they feel mostly fine

I disagree strongly on Lokix. Tera Bug Boots is an amazing anti-offense tool that can also make progress against fat now with knock off + U-Turn. Nobody bothers running protect anymore like early UU Maushold. Talonflame is nowhere to be found, though I guess Heatran can run flame body now. Scale shot users dropping their own defense makes them Lokix food.


Lokix @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Knock Off
- Axe Kick
- U-turn

There's not a ton that wants to switch into this. I would argue Lokix might be at its peak of UU viability right now; the more offensive the meta the better Lokix performs.

 

[Twilight]

I disagree strongly on Lokix. Tera Bug Boots is an amazing anti-offense tool that can also make progress against fat now with knock off + U-Turn. Nobody bothers running protect anymore like early UU Maushold. Talonflame is nowhere to be found, though I guess Heatran can run flame body now. Scale shot users dropping their own defense makes them Lokix food.


Lokix @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Knock Off
- Axe Kick
- U-turn

There's not a ton that wants to switch into this. I would argue Lokix might be at its peak of UU viability right now; the more offensive the meta the better Lokix performs.

Lokix is probably still fine though I wouldn't say it is close to the peak it had a month or two ago. Defensively it is easier to handle with the likes of Amoonguss, Gweez, Hands, and Okidogi being in the tier. All of these have access to recovery in some capacity too. As an offensive Dark-type and revenge killer, it also faces competition from the rising of Weavile and the recently dropped Meow, both of which can be likewise as strong against offense. Again I think the Pokemon is still fine, it has a much easier time pressuring rain for example but it does have noticeable issues post-shifts.

My opinions about the suspect mons haven't really changed. I didn't comment on Ceru because I never played during the month it got banned. I don't think it is the most beneficial mon for the tier. Sash variants are the biggest issue with it allowing you to get the SD off and the +2 Speed. I don't think there are that many SpA Pokemon in the tier right now that reliably activate its sash and then proceed to not die to +2 Bitter Blade or Polter. It doesn't help that it resists or is straight immune to many forms of priority aside from Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch. No item Alomomola is probably the best response with Hippowdon being a relatively good response too but then you also factor in tera, which I have seen like 3-4 different types.

I also just want to comment a little more on rain after getting more games against it. The variance in rain teams can honestly feel very drastic depending on the abusers being used. You might be well equipped to deal with the likes of Floatzel and Basculegion-M spamming Wave Crash and then you run into ones running Golduck and Ludicolo and you get completely run over by it. I'm a big Volcanion fan so I have been using it a lot right now and I'd say it is probably the closest thing to being a hard response to most of them. Either way, it feels constricting to a degree and I imagine with time when people move away from Wave Crash spam it'll become a massive nuisance.

 

[Szark]

Yeah, no. This thing is as silly as ever, being able to SD, proc Weak Armor, nuke everything, steal your opponents wife, and win you the game on the spot. Seriously now I think there are just too many ways for it to get it to get into winning position. Defensive counterplay felt pretty fake to me, Foul Play

just gets 1v1'd if has Sash up and I had a game where it set up my sweep thanks to Weak Armor proc and SD on Mandi switch in. One thing I think is good into it is

Scale Shot sets get to break Sash and Special sets with Throat Spray don't proc Weak Armor and are immune to Poltergeist, but that's also on the radar so. Everything else?

Flash Fire blocks Bitter Blade and is a special attacker but either dies to Close Combat or gets nuked by Poltergeist after SD.

after Weak Armor Scarf Sets are slower so if it wants to revenge it needs Sucker and pray doesn't turn it into Bitter Blade fodder with Tera.

this is purely a match up on "who set's up first?" as well as "can it tera and does it have sash?" Scale Shot goes through Sash but Ceruledge threatens Tera Fairy which doesn't die to Iron Head without Chomps SD and potentially threatens Sash and Weak Armor and nuking Chomp with Poltergeist next turn.
I could go on.

my feelings on it haven't really changed much. I still think it has counterplay, it's not great into Rain and overall just really strong. I would rather see a suspect but if it gets banned it's understandable.

I haven't seen many on the ladder and only started using one myself. It's definitely strong but I need more time with it.

I also maintain that this mon is very dumb. It has a few more checks now but it still allows you to win games you simply shouldn't. I think the reason people aren't finding it too oppressive is new toy syndrome but the moment things like are gone it becomes even dumber and even better.

rain is very annoying and has lot's of variantions between Special and Physical attackers. I am not quiet convinced if it's broken tho. Current meta is very skewed and unfriendly to mons like

, and people seem to have forgotten about

because they get ruined by EQ. I think Rain would be much healthier with these two.

it's annoying. Well that's kind off it. I think there are a lot of ways around this Mon, especially Covert Cloak which also protects you from Toxic Chain users, Sludge Bombs and Scald Burns. It's fine.

I have been somewhat disappointed with it, probably due to the meta. We have a lot of ground types in the tier too. Seemed pretty Tera reliant in my games.

 

[Eeveeto]

∆ To the above guy, Covert Cloak doesn't protect from Toxic Chain.
Regarding the meta, my stance hasn't changed much so far: I see Chomp as the most broken Mon in the Tier, followed by Garg and Clanger. Rain as a whole, Ceruledge and Iron Hands are fine. Heatran so far shouldn't even be discussed, he is bad vs Rain, bad vs Chomp, not reliable enough vs Garg and there are more Waters, Grounds, Fights and Dragons, even the hated Ceruledge just needs Tera Grass and Flash Fire to completely ignore Tran.

 

[SturdyShedinja]

Not much to say that hasn't been said already, with the right set or tera it can just circumvent most of it's checks. Please ban this thing


Sash sets can get out of hand way too easily and even with all of the new defensive tools, not much can actually eat it's STABs. It's nearly impossible to answer without giving up an item slot, most defensive checks either can't really threaten it back or just lose if the sash is up or it teras, and tera lets it punish offensive checks with a potentially game ending weak armor boost. This just isn't a healthy presence in the tier.


It was fun while it lasted, but chomp needs to go. SD scale shot sets melt most defensive options, especially since it has room for stone edge or iron head for mandi and geezing respectively. Most bulky waters can check it but they can't really threaten it back outside of scald burns besides rotom who just gets worn down over the course of a game. Mixed sets are generally less broken, but the ability to lure in rotom and mola with a 2hko from draco while also threatening hazards is an underrated enabler for mons like weav and ceru. Tera is also pretty absurd for it as it's naturally bulky enough to eat most attacks from scarfers, let alone priority, with a resistance.


I don't think any particular rain abusers are broken, but it's versatility is what puts it over the edge for me. Between floatzel, skewda, basc, azu, and daunt for raw damage, torn, thundy, and golduck to threaten water immunities, and even niche picks like ludicolo and overqwil, rain has options to break through any defensive core with the right mons. It can even choose to play a longer game with options like torn and amoong. I'll admit that I'm a bit biased as a ladder player who dislikes cheesy strategies, so I wouldn't be surprised to see a suspect instead of a qb, but rain's ability to fish for any matchup means that some form of action is necessary imo.


This has seemed surprisingly manageable in my experience. I could see it being very oppressive once the metagame slows down, but with the defensive teams it preys on struggling it hasn't seemed quite as bad as some of the other brokens. That being said, it's definitely worth keeping an eye on as the metagame develops.


This seems more annoying than broken imo, though like iron hands, I can see it being obnoxious once defensive teamstyles become more viable. Being forced to dedicate tera to the salt monster to get rid of it's bad rock typing gives it's team a lot less flexibility for playing around offensive threats, so even if it's hard to punish the actual mon, it's tera reliance can be exploitable.


I honestly think that tran is a healthy addition to the tier as another bulky steel that isn't too passive. Maybe it'll be a lot less manageable without chomp and rain in the tier, but it seems balanced in the current meta imo.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

The three mons that absolutely should be quickbanned, and probably the most broken stuff in the tier that definitely should not stay here long term since they are too powerful, and probably too cheap overall for the tier.

Ceruledge is stupid, not as ridiculous as Kommo-o and Chomp but yeah Ceruledge just nukes everything with poltergeist like it did pre dlc and can defensively tera to cheese out kills. Yeah this thing is broken. Beats every hazard removal and is impossible to switch around, and if you get a weak armor trigger after an SD, its basically lights out for your opponent.

Kommo-o is just ridiculous due to the amount of sets it can run, while not only being game endingly strong, but also completely unpredictable. Think its a tera normal set? Well turns out it hit tera steel to belly drum or dragon dance and become impossible to switch around. Think its physical? It just clicks tera normal and it has a ridiculously powerful tera normal boomburst that even resists like garganacl and Heatran take a sizable chunk of damage from. Yeah this thing is just as if not more stupid than it was in UU last gen.

I don't think I need to say much on garchomp, the fact it can slot in coverage and tera to punish the fairies and ice types for trying to keep it from scale shotting, and the fact garchomp on its own can take over games by just sweeping with a well timed tera and a well timed scale shot definitely isn't healthy. You also cannot really pivot around it either as rough skin just makes that nigh impossible. Chomp needs to go too, as it is also just too good of a sweeper down here.

I also think , and could be suspects later down the road, as loaded dice Weavile goes kinda crazy sometimes and can be pretty hard to answer defensively without going into a Rotom-Wash or a heatran, which fear knocked. I don't think weavile is broken but its pretty good. Quaquaval also has never really been super healthy as teams that oftentimes if you don't have a decent check/counter, you can just fold to the duck. Granted we have Amoonguss and Clodsire now which are pretty cool checks but if those mons are the only two things that can come in safely like I think they are (Some gargs get 2hko by quaquaval), the duck is probably still restrictive on the builder like it always has been. Iron Hands feels like something that could also be too restrictive on the builder as its answers are pretty much the same defensively, being Clodsire and Amoonguss, so I could see a suspect down the road.

As for pokemon that I think will be fine presences and will end up being pretty good are probably: (Even if its obnoxious, it feels fine.) and

Okidogi is not only a fat poison/fighting type with cool resists and definitely the best of the loyal 3, but it also functions as a fat beatstick or Bulk Up sweeper pretty much reminiscent of Buzzwole in past gens of UU. Buzzwole at home- I mean Okidogi should be pretty good here. Heatran and Garganacl feel like fine additions, that surprisingly don't feel overwhelming at all to deal with, even if garg can be obnoxious. Crazy we live in a timeline where Heatran is pretty much D rank in OU and now just straight up a UU calibur mon thanks to powercreep. Clodsire and Amoonguss are cool defensive backbones that offer answers to potential brokens and other stuff running around the tier, as well as being decent answers to rain teams that don't have tornadus-t.

 

[ThatOneApple]

I disagree strongly on Lokix. Tera Bug Boots is an amazing anti-offense tool that can also make progress against fat now with knock off + U-Turn. Nobody bothers running protect anymore like early UU Maushold. Talonflame is nowhere to be found, though I guess Heatran can run flame body now. Scale shot users dropping their own defense makes them Lokix food.


Lokix @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Tinted Lens
Tera Type: Bug
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- First Impression
- Knock Off
- Axe Kick
- U-turn

There's not a ton that wants to switch into this. I would argue Lokix might be at its peak of UU viability right now; the more offensive the meta the better Lokix performs.

Lokix isnt as good because it cant force HO into weird spots nearly as easily as the stuff on it is fatter with stuff like quaq or kommo-o, rain typically has a defensive backbone that can fend it off, and the fat teams have so much regen that its hard to make lokix's damage stick. I feel like it kinds needs to tera to get some good damage. Im sure itll probably get better as the meta progresses but as of now its not that great.

Also please dont use axe kick, there isnt a situation where youd use it over leech life, and without leech life lokix has negative longevity (also losing 50% on a miss is a big no no)

 

[Negative Charge]

Lokix isnt as good because it cant force HO into weird spots nearly as easily as the stuff on it is fatter with stuff like quaq or kommo-o, rain typically has a defensive backbone that can fend it off, and the fat teams have so much regen that its hard to make lokix's damage stick. I feel like it kinds needs to tera to get some good damage. Im sure itll probably get better as the meta progresses but as of now its not that great.

Also please dont use axe kick, there isnt a situation where youd use it over leech life, and without leech life lokix has negative longevity (also losing 50% on a miss is a big no no)

Axe Kick is useful for Treads, Heatran, Ursaluna and Hoodra. I used to run Leech Life but I think Axe Kick is more useful to drop the aforementioned threats after they switch into your first impression or after some chip.

 

[EviGaro]

I've been playing this quite a bit recently and I think it's a very cool meta despite some of the very silly things in it, so here are some very short thoughts on the silly things pointed out.

bad, no ban. Ok not BAD, but it's insanely awkward in this tier. The two dragons don't care, obviously, but Heatran's main problem is it just doesn't really have a clear role. It's a fat thing that gets them up, but why use that over the other fat things that get them up? Its typing is very awkward, it hates the fact that everything gets knock now - seriously, on most teams I see, Heatran takes knock from Torn as its the only thing it checks well, but Torn just removes its lefties and... gets out to all the other counters a team naturally has - and while offensive does have some potential, it's fairly slow and just doesn't have the moves for the tier now. It doesn't benefit from tera very well either.

Do not ban, maybe ban Thundurus-Therian. The coward's way out, but imo rain is right on the cusp of broken, but it's not because of this. If anything, rain is way more reliant on Thundurus-Therian than a setter now, as Pelipper itself kinda struggles vs the meta at large, and you definitely do not want to tera that thing in such an offensive archetype. So, no, maybe look at Thundy later on.

ban LOL what the fuck is this. Even a rocks set is absurdly good, and Soundproof Kommo-o is the best check to setup Kommo-o. Unless its SD Loaded Dice, which is also really fricking good. Maybe we should all save ourselves those interactions.

do not ban. Good mon, annoying af, but has plenty of counterplay and gets knocked way too much in games to be as good as it used to be in its OU peak.

suspect. I think the moment you don't use Scale Shot this mon is kinda whatever. Scale Shot however, is really really good yes. I don't think it's there with Kommo-o exactly, because that thing just has way more value to it with multiple sets, but I can see an argument for a ban. So suspect is fine.

ban. Can we please never do this to ourselves again? This has absurd longevity, it doesn't die, it has no real counter. It's always the same song and dance with that thing because it inevitably adjusts to the very low count of things we have to deal with it.

ban. Also in the nope category. I think its slightly more manageable than the fightings, but Bitter Blade with those mindgames is extremely dishonest. You always have to play so awkwardly vs a Ceruledge even when its based on the things you know about it immediately. Problem is, the other half you are not sure about is still there.

And a bit on probably my favourite mon through laddering:

Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Steel / Water / Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Bulk Up

I love this thing, and its kinda like a more honest Iron Hands really. The typing is excellent for a lot of threats in this tier, especially Garganacl and Meowscarada, and the ability makes stuff like Skeledirge or Tornadus very wary of coming in. You struggle a bit vs Clodsire or Garchomp, but you could honestly put Ice Punch on this and it should still be good imo. Knock is great but a bit easier to remove now that this tier has 200 of them. In a tier infested with broken fightings, I see this as definitely having a strong niche - get it??? - over them as it's very good against natural fighting checks while also functioning as a check to them. The tera is a bit w/e, I like steel because it works well with most natural weaknesses, but water has good points vs grounds and fightings. Bear in mind that both makes you a bit weaker to Garganacl, which is a mon you naturally own, and water especially can make Meowscarada annoying. Fairy is also another classically good option, as it's a good middle ground between those, and should definitely work.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I've been playing this quite a bit recently and I think it's a very cool meta despite some of the very silly things in it, so here are some very short thoughts on the silly things pointed out.

bad, no ban. Ok not BAD, but it's insanely awkward in this tier. The two dragons don't care, obviously, but Heatran's main problem is it just doesn't really have a clear role. It's a fat thing that gets them up, but why use that over the other fat things that get them up? Its typing is very awkward, it hates the fact that everything gets knock now - seriously, on most teams I see, Heatran takes knock from Torn as its the only thing it checks well, but Torn just removes its lefties and... gets out to all the other counters a team naturally has - and while offensive does have some potential, it's fairly slow and just doesn't have the moves for the tier now. It doesn't benefit from tera very well either.

Do not ban, maybe ban Thundurus-Therian. The coward's way out, but imo rain is right on the cusp of broken, but it's not because of this. If anything, rain is way more reliant on Thundurus-Therian than a setter now, as Pelipper itself kinda struggles vs the meta at large, and you definitely do not want to tera that thing in such an offensive archetype. So, no, maybe look at Thundy later on.

ban LOL what the fuck is this. Even a rocks set is absurdly good, and Soundproof Kommo-o is the best check to setup Kommo-o. Unless its SD Loaded Dice, which is also really fricking good. Maybe we should all save ourselves those interactions.

do not ban. Good mon, annoying af, but has plenty of counterplay and gets knocked way too much in games to be as good as it used to be in its OU peak.

suspect. I think the moment you don't use Scale Shot this mon is kinda whatever. Scale Shot however, is really really good yes. I don't think it's there with Kommo-o exactly, because that thing just has way more value to it with multiple sets, but I can see an argument for a ban. So suspect is fine.

ban. Can we please never do this to ourselves again? This has absurd longevity, it doesn't die, it has no real counter. It's always the same song and dance with that thing because it inevitably adjusts to the very low count of things we have to deal with it.

ban. Also in the nope category. I think its slightly more manageable than the fightings, but Bitter Blade with those mindgames is extremely dishonest. You always have to play so awkwardly vs a Ceruledge even when its based on the things you know about it immediately. Problem is, the other half you are not sure about is still there.

And a bit on probably my favourite mon through laddering:

Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Steel / Water / Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Bulk Up

I love this thing, and its kinda like a more honest Iron Hands really. The typing is excellent for a lot of threats in this tier, especially Garganacl and Meowscarada, and the ability makes stuff like Skeledirge or Tornadus very wary of coming in. You struggle a bit vs Clodsire or Garchomp, but you could honestly put Ice Punch on this and it should still be good imo. Knock is great but a bit easier to remove now that this tier has 200 of them. In a tier infested with broken fightings, I see this as definitely having a strong niche - get it??? - over them as it's very good against natural fighting checks while also functioning as a check to them. The tera is a bit w/e, I like steel because it works well with most natural weaknesses, but water has good points vs grounds and fightings. Bear in mind that both makes you a bit weaker to Garganacl, which is a mon you naturally own, and water especially can make Meowscarada annoying. Fairy is also another classically good option, as it's a good middle ground between those, and should definitely work.

Yes I agree that feels kinda weird without scale shot, but in what scenario are you not gonna run scale shot if its optimal like it currently is? It usually isn't worth giving up the broken game ending potential for rocks anyway. I don't think garchomp should be here regardless, as scale shot sets are definitely too good. A shame really, as without scale shot garchomp would have been pretty cool to have down here without scale shot, but as it stands it needs to go. SD scale shot just runs over too much, and while not as obnoxiously broken as kommo-o its still busted, and not something that we should keep around, as well its defensive answers not being very good at all.


Also i'm gonna say that yeah is probably still a bit strong, but the difference is that Amoonguss and Clodsire can ruin its longevity and sweeps through doing Clodsire and Amoonguss things and being pretty strong checks to it as both stabs bounce right off of them, and I think hands should be given more time.

 

[Fracterra]

I've been playing this quite a bit recently and I think it's a very cool meta despite some of the very silly things in it, so here are some very short thoughts on the silly things pointed out.

bad, no ban. Ok not BAD, but it's insanely awkward in this tier. The two dragons don't care, obviously, but Heatran's main problem is it just doesn't really have a clear role. It's a fat thing that gets them up, but why use that over the other fat things that get them up? Its typing is very awkward, it hates the fact that everything gets knock now - seriously, on most teams I see, Heatran takes knock from Torn as its the only thing it checks well, but Torn just removes its lefties and... gets out to all the other counters a team naturally has - and while offensive does have some potential, it's fairly slow and just doesn't have the moves for the tier now. It doesn't benefit from tera very well either.

Do not ban, maybe ban Thundurus-Therian. The coward's way out, but imo rain is right on the cusp of broken, but it's not because of this. If anything, rain is way more reliant on Thundurus-Therian than a setter now, as Pelipper itself kinda struggles vs the meta at large, and you definitely do not want to tera that thing in such an offensive archetype. So, no, maybe look at Thundy later on.

ban LOL what the fuck is this. Even a rocks set is absurdly good, and Soundproof Kommo-o is the best check to setup Kommo-o. Unless its SD Loaded Dice, which is also really fricking good. Maybe we should all save ourselves those interactions.

do not ban. Good mon, annoying af, but has plenty of counterplay and gets knocked way too much in games to be as good as it used to be in its OU peak.

suspect. I think the moment you don't use Scale Shot this mon is kinda whatever. Scale Shot however, is really really good yes. I don't think it's there with Kommo-o exactly, because that thing just has way more value to it with multiple sets, but I can see an argument for a ban. So suspect is fine.

ban. Can we please never do this to ourselves again? This has absurd longevity, it doesn't die, it has no real counter. It's always the same song and dance with that thing because it inevitably adjusts to the very low count of things we have to deal with it.

ban. Also in the nope category. I think its slightly more manageable than the fightings, but Bitter Blade with those mindgames is extremely dishonest. You always have to play so awkwardly vs a Ceruledge even when its based on the things you know about it immediately. Problem is, the other half you are not sure about is still there.

And a bit on probably my favourite mon through laddering:

Okidogi @ Leftovers
Ability: Toxic Chain
Tera Type: Steel / Water / Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 196 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Bulk Up

I love this thing, and its kinda like a more honest Iron Hands really. The typing is excellent for a lot of threats in this tier, especially Garganacl and Meowscarada, and the ability makes stuff like Skeledirge or Tornadus very wary of coming in. You struggle a bit vs Clodsire or Garchomp, but you could honestly put Ice Punch on this and it should still be good imo. Knock is great but a bit easier to remove now that this tier has 200 of them. In a tier infested with broken fightings, I see this as definitely having a strong niche - get it??? - over them as it's very good against natural fighting checks while also functioning as a check to them. The tera is a bit w/e, I like steel because it works well with most natural weaknesses, but water has good points vs grounds and fightings. Bear in mind that both makes you a bit weaker to Garganacl, which is a mon you naturally own, and water especially can make Meowscarada annoying. Fairy is also another classically good option, as it's a good middle ground between those, and should definitely work.

Garchomp, a former Uber Pokémon, watching himself getting dropped into to UU:

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Garchomp, a former Uber Pokémon, watching himself getting dropped into to UU:

Hey at least its probably gonna be in UUBL, significantly better than the hand Heatran was dealt this gen where its a d rank pokemon pretty much in OU and Heatran being just fine down here. Garchomp can at least be used in OU without handicapping yourself and is still a decently fine choice, heatran doesn't even have that anymore.

 

[Fracterra]

Hey at least its probably gonna be in UUBL, significantly better than the hand Heatran was dealt this gen where its a d rank pokemon pretty much in OU and Heatran being just fine down here. Garchomp can at least be used in OU without handicapping yourself and is still a decently fine choice, heatran doesn't even have that anymore.

Yeah, funny how people are more scared of Kommo-o than Garchomp lmao. The only things they share? Being dragon type, and being used by Cynthia. A good friend will be evaluating Kommo-o and why its so god damn good. In a few hours, hopefully.
Edit: God damn good, I’ve watched too much Firefly this week it seems

 

[Smallsmallrose]

Hey, it's your old pal Rosey from gen 7 UU. I've come back to the tier recently and I've been having a lot of fun with this meta! That said, I'd like to give my input on all the hot topics:

These are right at the top of the brokens list. Absolute game stealers. I think Ceruledge is even a little more broken than Kommo because it doesn't need to change it's gameplan too much to be a menace any which way but Kommo is still insanely strong and can pick it's checks and counters so it's more of a lottery while Ceruledge is just brute force plain and simple, both of these need to go.

I think these are currently part of a massive snowball of critical threat mass in that in theory if only one of them stayed it'd be balanced out, but with all 3 of them, the mons above, and one I'm about to mention below, there's simply too much to ask for in the teambuilder right now. It feels like you kind of have to build in mind that you can only beat a certain number of things regularly and MAYBE at best use a specific tera or something shaky to beat the last. Granted, not every team has to be built to handle everything all the time, but you rarely even have shaky options for one top mon if you're building around like 2 or 3 others. That said, if I had to pick one out of these 3 to be immediately broken outside of my opinions on critical threat mass, it'd probably be Garganacl. As much as I love Garg and have been a nuisance with it myself in other tiers, I think it's counterplay is a lot more weird and specific which makes it far more difficult to prep for when building a team in a vacuum than other threats that at least have some sort of Venn Diagram. Covert Cloak sacrifices the item and only really comes up in fringe situations outside of Salt Cure and while regen spam is a more conventional way to shut it down, double regen itself is a teambuilding constraint and doesn't always account for things like Garganacl's teammates stacking hazards and knocking boots (to make pivoting out of Salt Cure much more inefficient and costly) trapping gimmicks (Most notably Heatran) and Garg's ability to switch from Salt Cure annoyance to full wincon with Curse or Iron Defense Body press in the same set.

I haven't had too many troubles with this personally and using it myself has been very polarizing where it either dominates a game or gets bodied but it feels like every time it gets completely bowled over on either side its usually by one of the other things on the suspect list. Hands is on the cusp of being broken if it isn't already and it's only going to get significantly worse after a ban wave, thus I wouldn't mind it being part of the ban wave.

Honestly, fine addition to the tier. It hits the perfect sweet spot of being good enough to be on almost every team while not doing anything quite as obscene as any of the pokemon above. It might contribute a tiny bit to the critical threat mass I mentioned on the Garg/Chomp/Pelipper line but this isn't nearly as bad in that regard. It might get stronger if some of the threats (Especially Chomp) are banned but I barely consider it a threat on it's own and if we deal with it, it's going to be much later than anything else here.

 

[Fracterra]

Hey, it's your old pal Rosey from gen 7 UU. I've come back to the tier recently and I've been having a lot of fun with this meta! That said, I'd like to give my input on all the hot topics:
View attachment 558563View attachment 558767 These are right at the top of the brokens list. Absolute game stealers. I think Ceruledge is even a little more broken than Kommo because it doesn't need to change it's gameplan too much to be a menace any which way but Kommo is still insanely strong and can pick it's checks and counters so it's more of a lottery while Ceruledge is just brute force plain and simple, both of these need to go.
View attachment 558768View attachment 558769View attachment 558770I think these are currently part of a massive snowball of critical threat mass in that in theory if only one of them stayed it'd be balanced out, but with all 3 of them, the mons above, and one I'm about to mention below, there's simply too much to ask for in the teambuilder right now. It feels like you kind of have to build in mind that you can only beat a certain number of things regularly and MAYBE at best use a specific tera or something shaky to beat the last. Granted, not every team has to be built to handle everything all the time, but you rarely even have shaky options for one top mon if you're building around like 2 or 3 others. That said, if I had to pick one out of these 3 to be immediately broken outside of my opinions on critical threat mass, it'd probably be Garganacl. As much as I love Garg and have been a nuisance with it myself in other tiers, I think it's counterplay is a lot more weird and specific which makes it far more difficult to prep for. Covert Cloak sacrifices the item and only really comes up in fringe situations outside of Salt Cure and while regen spam is a more conventional way to shut it down, double regen itself is a teambuilding constraint and doesn't always account for things like Garganacl's teammates stacking hazards and knocking boots (to make pivoting out of Salt Cure much more inefficient and costly) trapping gimmicks (Most notably Heatran) and Garg's ability to switch from Salt Cure annoyance to full wincon with Curse or Iron Defense Body press in the same set.
View attachment 558772I haven't had too many troubles with this personally and using it myself has been very polarizing where it either dominates a game or gets bodied but it feels like every time it gets completely bowled over on either end its usually by one of the other things on the suspect list. Hands is on the cusp of being broken and it's only going to get significantly worse after a ban wave, thus I wouldn't mind it being part of the ban wave.
View attachment 558774Honestly, fine addition to the tier. It hits the perfect sweet spot of being good enough to be on almost every team while not doing anything quite as obscene as any of the pokemon above. It might contribute a tiny bit to the critical threat mass I mentioned on the Garg/Chomp/Pelipper line but this isn't nearly as bad in that regard. It might get stronger if some of the threats (Especially Chomp) are banned but I barely consider it a threat on it's own and if we deal with it, it's going to be much later than anything else here.

My thoughts
Kommo-o>Ceruledge imo
Garg is balanced
Garchomp is suspect worthy, but not QB
Ban Torn-T before the phat bord

 

[Negative Charge]

I think if you can only run one entry hazard, spikes are probably the one these days. I personally run three pairs of boots on my volturn team (I could run them on mola but she always gets knocked and I prefer the rocky helmet chip) Everything that is weak to rocks just uses boots and IMO I think these dedicated rocks leads like Azelf or Kleavor or Booster Treads would be better replaced by something setting up a spike. The utility of rocks is vastly overstated IMO. Just watch a typical game and calc how much hazard damage rocks were expected to generate (based on typings of the team) vs what actually happened (because of boots). I feel like everyone's brain is still stuck in Gen 7 and just see flying/ice/bug/fire types as free damage when in practice you're just wasting a turn setting them up because none of them give a shit about hazards. A single spike is likely to do more net damage than rocks imo. Anyone have any thoughts on UU hazards?

 

[eeriespell]

short version of my thoughts

ban
ban
ban
ban
dnb, test later
dnb
dnb

Nothing much has changed for this, really. We went from having to play Guess Bitch to Mandibuzz beating it and having more special attackers that can skirt around Weak Armor. It's definitely more manageable than it used to be, but it's still rather silly in a lot of cases, definitely do agree with the statement that it kind of guarantees that you're keeping hazards up no matter what. I think that if we're being consistent with our logic here, then Ceruledge should be banned.


Absolutely fucking ridiculous, it has a bunch of sets but Clangorous Soul is the big one so that's what I'm going to talk about. Unaware is the only thing that really stops it, and Skeledirge can't do much since Soundproof and Tera Normal completely wall it and you lose long term since Slack Off won't last long enough. It's at the point that people's main counters to Kommo-o are other Kommo-o with different Tera types and fourth moves. Please ban.


I've made my thoughts on this very clear in previous posts, and I'm not gonna beat a dead horse. It really has no place in this metagame. Ban for the triple.


Is Rain broken right now? No. Is it annoying and providing nothing of value to the tier? Yes. I think that banning Pelipper is probably the way to go if Rain is seen as such a large issue that the playstyle needs to be kneecapped, since the amount of abusers is simply too large to do anything reasonable about them. Politoed is a strict downgrade in every regard and I don't think it has enough use outside of setting Rain (or even setting rain at all, it's really fucking bad) that banning Drizzle is a viable idea. The Rain abusers are all very good, but Pelipper's large toolkit is really what enables Rain as a playstyle. I think a ban is appropriate.


I'm gonna be honest, I haven't been having the same issues as everyone else with this? However, I do think that a lot of the criticisms and complaints are valid, and I wouldn't be terribly upset to see it go if not just to help stabilize the tier in time for UUSD. I think that, regardless of the outcome, there should be a suspect test regarding it later since the community seems to have a lot to say on it, either to release it from UUBL or to send it there after the results of this slate. Currently though I'm feeling a Do Not Ban.


Why is this here? It's good at abusing Tera, but not to the extreme levels of the other suspects here. It frequently runs into issues with its Speed, or with Magma Storm missing a lot, or struggling to fit all the moves it wants. I see no reason to remove this from the tier, SpDef sets are good, but nothing Heatran does is really that absurd at all. Do Not Ban.


Annoying but not broken, Do Not Ban.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

- Ban.. it still feels nuts and unless ur tera ID garg ur prob not doing to hot esp if you trigger a weak armor boost.. and after a SD it hurts like a truck (unfortunately ive had little play time vs it.. but i still feel its opressive from watching a bit of games vs it) like polter after a SD makes anything but garg kinda not do so hot... and triggering a weak armor boost via u-turn, knock off, or smth that didnt KO it and they get an SD up is possibly game ending..


- Ban. This is prob the most broken, you can soul behind screens, or soul on a free switch in or against a choiced pokemon and claim ur kills... the only pokemon who can live +2 stab boomburst are... very little pokemon like tinkaton, iron treads, skeledirge, and others but those are thin numbers and tinkaton and treads still cant kill it in return or do much to it.



- Ban it. still to fat, idk what else to say it sets up SD on many pokemon with its ability to threaten out a lot of things... and a lot of sets do beat the counters it wants to like sub, or tera ground, tera ghost, etc. like its also very very bulky and can be very very annoying to take down and walls like skeledirge dont really work



- DNB... idk ive faced rain.. it feels fine even with 2 semi water resists. FEels good but not broken so idk what the reaction is. Like teams with rain often struggle against powerful attackers like specs drei, garchomp, tera water garg, sand from hippo hurts it.. yeah idk it doesnt seem all that "Pls quickban" energy



- Ban. Garchomp just goes nuts and can get an SD on almost anything, can live 4x super effectives from gastrodon, can live strong hits such as zapdos-g BB, CB scizor BP even at -1 and god forbid ur not CB ur not doing much to it. Scale shot just pushes it over the edge by being able to take over games easily... smth that could revenge it like scarf zapdos-g no longer can

Current counterplay to chomp ive been using because I hate facing it a lot. These are some counters i have been using and I do not like how u have to 50/50 against it when it has tera available.. feels like the biggest abuser of it and I do not like it

Hydreigon

Hydreigon @ Choice Specs
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Dark Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Flash Cannon

Drei is just an odd pokemon to lure it in and check esp with tera steel... tera steel allows u to beat sets like SD scale shot sub, SD scale shot iron head, and unless they are fire fang u can kinda nuke them with flash cannon, darj pulse, or draco if they burnt tera alr. I find this a fun pokemon to use

Skeledirge

Skeledirge @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Unaware
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 248 HP / 16 Def / 244 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Torch Song
- Tera Blast
- Earth Power
- Slack Off

Dirge is another odd mon that you would use to check garchomp but it works... so what does this do? Well tera blast fairy hits chomp pretty hard esp when it has no tera and allows it to screw up kommo-o to. While yes losing shadow ball/hex/WoW sucks I would rather not be setup fother with 3 attacks dirge

Treads

Iron Treads @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Ice Spinner
- Rapid Spin

Treads at +1 can still outrun chomp and just ice spinner its face... while this set does 50/50 chomp with tera you can still beat it with the use or a diff tera like fairy, or flying, or smth else and eq still does a bunch to -1 chomp



- DNB. good but not broken.. has a decent amount of counterplay and needs to burn tera in order to beat the waters or use WoW for chomp or needs other tools to get past smth like garg, gastrodon, rotom-w, roost quav, flip turn alo, etc

Heatran wants to do a lot and fails... while its def a good pokemon the meta rn is hostile asf to it esp def tran and since you stack weaknesses if you run cyclizar or iron treads it isnt a good look esp since the meta is now overun by good dragons, iron treads being top dog with garchomp, garg salt cure doing 25% and it wantin nothing to do with it... yeah kinda is good but not smth I would have expected to see here



- A+ mon but DNB... not that broken in my opinion and maybe in the future it will be i dont see a world where it deserves a QB. We should wait for a bit of adaptation esp for a pokemon like garg which is infinitely easier to prep for than smth like chomp, hands, ceruledge

is a pretty heat item that may be worth a try to neutralize it on pokemon such as quag, gastrodon (still sets up if its curse or ID), def waters like alomomola, and other def pokemon that may not want to eat the chipp like amoonguss. I feel while garg is the main cause of running this item... there are other pokemon that can benefit heavily from inflicting their secondary effects

 

[FoulplayG]

I want to share my thought on all problematic Pokemon in this Tier

For the TLDR Version check out this video I made Sharing my thoughts

This is is way to Bulky. Needs to be Banned! It can survive most unboosted neutral hits and some super effective hits such as Garchomp and Iron Treads Earthquake. It trades far to easily and far to good into many of the top Pokemon such as Tornadus, Garchomp, Iron Treads etc. Way to easy to use for the threat level that it brings. Requires no skill to use.

Many people seem to be worried about how you can spam salt cure, but many good Pokemon in the tier such as Sinistcha, Okidogi, even defense mons like Big Alo and Gastro have started to run Covert Cloak to block salt cures damage. If salt cure is not going to do residual damage, vs game ending pokemon this guy can become a sitting duck. All in all it will probably remain in the tier and rise up to OU naturally. Very good defensive Pivot imo. Not Ban worthy for now. Have to wait and see how the meta game adapts after the bans

Also struggles with covert cloak usage, top Pokemon like Iron hand's Garchomp, Treads, Ursuluna and many more pressure it. Faces Fire type competition from Ceruledge ( which has close combat), Rotom wash is pretty popular. Great defensive/ Offensive Mon. Not overbearing, not ban worthy, Fairly manageable with a variety of strong offensive mons as mentioned above and switch moves on defensive mons to bring in said threats, AKA; Chilly Reception Slowking; Flip Turn Alomomola and many many U-Turn mons that Heatran is supposed counter

Only Consistant check is Unaware Skeledirge ( Can check almost every if not every set that Kommo-o can run). The most common is Tera Normal Clangorous Soul Boomburst with throat spray which is a near game ending threat. Solid bulk and decent typing let it set up easily vs the HO and Balance team styles. Can even be run defensively or Special Defensively if you are adventurous enough. ( no toxic hurts ). But the fact that people are almost required to assume clangorous soul set up makes other set up variants, which have vastly different checks have a field day. Still to much set variety way to versatile and excellent in almost any role Ban this BS! don't wait

Keep it around until the most obvious broken mons are dealt with. It is in my opinion only exacerbated because it's teammates are so insane along side it that it can break for them or they can weak it's checks. Very Power Pokemon, Very easy to use but give it time for UU to solve HO after the bans. The Focus sash set will go down when the game pace slows down then we can have a fair judge of what is going on

 

[carbonlifeform]

Playing a lot with Iron Hands, there are some ways that it feels like Magearna in OU if you squint hard enough. Mostly meaning that there are ways that it offers some really good defensive utility if you want it to (AV sets can be a life-saver against Boomburst Kommo-o and others; bulky pivots are hella fun in general), but that utility doesn't outweigh its ability to distort the tier in unhealthy ways.

It's not as apparent because a) it's not nearly as busted as Mage (even accounting for the lower power level) and b) with all of the other insane offensive threats right now, its more defensive sets are super useful to alleviate stress in the builder. But as soon as a few of those are gone, it'll be back to SD Hands, and at that point -- especially if you're running it with late match Screens and/or Terrain support -- Cresselia and Levitate GWeezing are pretty much the only semi-consistent answers. It does hate the return of Scald and expanded access to toxic, but probably not enough to make a difference. It helps a lot that, unlike OU, Hands doesn't even really need EQ in this meta. Drain/Ice/Thunder Punch is sufficiently threatening to everything not-named Skeledirge.

My favorite thing the last couple of days:
Iron Hands @ Electric Seed
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 112 HP / 144 Def / 252 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Drain Punch
- Thunder Punch
- Ice Punch

Electric Seed procs after Quark Drive, so you get boosts to your attack and defense.
+2 0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. +1 112 HP / 144 Def Electric Seed Iron Hands: 296-350 (62 - 73.3%)
0+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 428-508 (101.9 - 120.9%)

252 Atk Iron Treads Earthquake vs. +1 112 HP / 144 Def Electric Seed Iron Hands: 162-192 (33.9 - 40.2%)
0+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Electric Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Treads: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%)

+2 252 Atk Ceruledge Bitter Blade vs. +1 112 HP / 144 Def Electric Seed Iron Hands: 157-186 (32.9 - 38.9%) (Electric Seed consumed = No Poltergeist)
252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Basculegion Wave Crash vs. +1 112 HP / 144 Def Electric Seed Iron Hands in Rain: 320-378 (67 - 79.2%)

+2 0+ Atk Quark Drive Iron Hands Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 404-476 (93.5 - 110.1%) (and Amoonguss can't spore if terrain is up)
0+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Electric Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skeledirge in Electric Terrain: 194-230 (47.2 - 55.9%)
0+ Atk Quark Drive Tera Electric Iron Hands Thunder Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing-Galar in Electric Terrain: 170-202 (50.8 - 60.4%)

Pair it with Tera Fairy Electric Seed Hoopa-U (Electric Seed helps mitigate the poor PhysDef and lets you proc Magician) for extra nastiness.

Finally, jumping in on the Lokix banter: remember that this buddy picked up Knock in the DLC. STAB Tinted Lens KnockTurn is nothing to laugh it in terms of team utility. The number of 4x Bug Resists around makes it less useful as a CB First Impression bot, but First Impression + Sucker Punch + Knock + U-Turn with Boots can accomplish a lot. You can even swap out FI for Taunt and run Tera Dark Black Glasses for some surprisingly funny calcs. Lokix and Iron Hands are also BFFs, as they're surprisingly good at helping put targets in range for each other.

 

[Moutemoute]

For sake of transparency, heres my votes + explanations for all the current Under Inspection Pokémon.

DNB
I do not believe Heatran is an issue in the current metagame. Even tho it might become too much in a near future if some of its checks were to be banned, I must take the current metagame to judge. Heatran is pretty healthy in my opinion since it offers great utility by being a good check to things such as Scizor or Tornadus-T (which kinda have to run Focus Blast now in order to bypass it). There is a ton of effective Ground-types at the moment and they deter Heatran really well imo. I also really like the fact that Heatran is a great trapper and an annoying Pokémon to deal with for passive shits without being too braindead. I think Tera Grass variants are ok but suffer the fact that Grass-type isn't a great defensive typing (even with an immunity to Fire-type thanks to Flash Fire). I know some people have complained about it, but I definitively can't resolve myself to vote ban on it.

BAN
Pelipper is an odd one. Of course, the Pokémon isn't an issue on its own but it enables offensive threats in Rain teams to be so effective. My issue with Rain teams as I mentionned in my last post is the fact that we currently have too many effective abusers. Unlike what EviGaro said, I strongly believe the issue is the fact that you can't adapt entirely to Rain teams and it's not Thundurus-T fault at all but the fact that Swift Swims users are so different from one to another. Wave Crash abusers such as Basculegion or Floatzel can be checked by things such as Alomomola or Amoonguss thanks to Regenerator and their bulk (even more if they're holding a Rocky Helmet) and even Rotom-Wash can be effective thanks to it's decent bulk, typing and access to Volt Switch / Will-O-Wisp. However, those Pokémon struggles vs other Swift Swims users such as Golduck, Ludicolo or Basculegion-F. Even Overqwil is a great option since its typing is really key to check Grass-types such as Ogerpon or Meowscarada while being able to pressure typical answers to Rain teams. All in all, I feel like Rain teams are too effective and they restrain the teambuilding a shit ton which isn't a thing I like and something to take into account when banning a thing from the tier. For those reasons, I believe Pelipper should go.

BAN
I'll be brief on that one : versatility. Kommo-o can basically do what you want it to do. It has so many viable sets and I feel like a lot of them are nasty to deal with since checks/counters are not the same at all from a variant to another. At team preview, you can't really tell what kind of Kommo-o you're facing and I believe that's an issue because it's a Pokémon which can catch you out of guard super easily. If you're expecting a special variant of it and it's a physical setup one, you're fucked because you sent the wrong answer. Kommo-o can even run underrated set like I do with Clangerous Soul + Substitute and while this isn't as effective as other variants, it will always work thanks to the effect of surprise. Clangerous Soul special variants are also insanely threatening since they have a really limited pool of checks : basically Unaware user such as Skeledirge and Clodsire or bulky Pokémon with good typing such as Heatran if Kommo-o doesn't run Aura Sphere or Jirachi if it doens't run Flamethrower. This Pokémon is a pain in the ass to handle and I don't think it's a positive presence for the tier (which sucks because I think it could be great if it doesn't had that much versatility).

BAN
I'm baffled to see I'm not on the majority side on that one but god damn what an awful Pokémon to deal with. The fact that so many people are calling it "ok" just because you can use Covert Cloak on things such as Alomomola, Sinistcha or Amoonguss kinda shows the issue of that Pokémon. You need to run a suboptimal item on some Pokémon just to not get fucked by Salt Cure (what a cringe move for real). In any other universe where Garganacl wouldn't be in UU you would not run this item on defensive Pokémon (outside of really dedicated niche I feel like) and would prefer something such as Heavy-Duty Boots, Leftovers or Rocky Helmet. Curse / Iron Defense Garganacl, alongside Salt Cure is an underrated slow setup monster which can mess so many defensive cores and archetypes with ease, it's disgusting. It's also an insane user of the Terastallization. You can run so many different Tera types effectively on that Pokémon, it's quite insane (Water, Fairy, Dragon, Ghost.. like bruh).

BAN
Garchomp is way too effective as a setup sweeper and its pool of check/counters is really limited. Actually, I think it doesn't have a real answer in the tier due to Terastallization. Both Tera Fire and Tera Steel allow it to bypass its most solid checks aka Levitate Galar-Weezing and Tera Fairy/Steel Rotom-Wash. I feel like it's always a guessing game with this Pokémon and it can snowball out of control so quickly. It's not a sweeper which will 6-0 your team but it will always remove or dent many Pokémon on the opposing side which will allow its teammates to clean the board. It's bulky, it has a great typing and it's fast and powerful, it's an almost perfect Pokémon to me and I feel like it's too much for the tier.

BAN
Third time's the charm isn't it ? Right..? Well not really, Iron Hands still does what it was doing when it was in the tier the first two times, take hits and retaliate with those big fists. Even tho the metagame isn't kind to it with much more powercreep and Ground-types all over the tier, I still believe Iron Hands is insane and able to trade vs so many threats. Sub variants are still nasty and really enjoys the fact that we have so many common defensive Pokémon such as Alomomola, Amoonguss or Garganacl. On the other..hand (*badum tssssss*) Swords Dance + 3 attacks sets are really great thanks to Iron Hands great coverage. The decline of Scream Tail allows it to run Ice Punch and nuke Amoonguss and Ground-type after a SD with ease. I've seen a resurgence of the OG Sub SD Tera Ghost Tera Blast set too and those are still effective and dangerous. Overall, I feel like this Pokémon will always be too great just because it's fat as fuck and able to smack back most of the Pokémon which would like to weaken it. This Pokémon forces out so many Pokémon just because it can 1v1 them, it's not fair imo and for this reason, I feel like it should go back to its real home aka the UUBL.

DNB
I voted DNB 2 weeks ago and I feel like I'm still on that train. Ceruledge is a major threat and it will often be able to get some KOs now that it has Poltergeist but I still feel like it's pretty MU dependant and can struggle vs staples such as Alomomola or Mandibuzz. We have so many effective Entry Hazards setters right now which makes Sash variants quite tough to use since it's not that easy to keep those EH out of your field. And without an active Focus Sash, there is so many threats that can mess with Ceruledge, even defensive ones. Garganacl kinda owns it thanks to its ability, great typing and good use of defensive Tera so yeah, I feel like the metagame isn't kinder to it so I don't see how I could vote ban on it while I wasn't sure it was banworthy during the previous metagame.

 

[Negative Charge]

I don't think running Covert Cloak is that big of a deal. I was running it on my Gastro pre-dlc 1 drops and continue to do so. It's really nice not rolling the dice on random hurricanes, sludge bombs, earth powers, and dark pulses. It's not suboptimal, it's just another option.

 

[Moutemoute]

I don't think running Covert Cloak is that big of a deal. I was running it on my Gastro pre-dlc 1 drops and continue to do so. It's really nice not rolling the dice on random hurricanes, sludge bombs, earth powers, and dark pulses. It's not suboptimal, it's just another option.

I know viability ≠ usage but stats wise, Covert Cloak was used on something like 2-3% of the time on Gastrodon. Even Float Stone was more used at high-ladder than Covert Clak last month. It was an item used on basically 2-3 Pokémon (Gastrodon, some rare Quaquaval and for whatever reason Brambleghast), that's all.

 

[Lizzie]

The opportunity cost of running covert cloak over boots with how prevalent hazards are rn is absolutely massive and means that cloak is not a viable method of dealing with garg on every team, even if you can fit it sometimes. This is without mentioning the fact that garg can 1v1 several cloak mons once it starts boosting its stats, meaning you're forced into highly specific options to check it this way. There are other options, gweezing does well into it if it has pain split for example, but my experience is that fitting a check onto teams reliably isn't really possible, and "offensively pressuring" it doesn't work when it can run iron defense meaning you can only pressure it with special attackers, which aren't very prevalent in the current meta. Things can change with other bans, but I really struggle to understand how people are dealing with this mon so apparently easily rn with the prevalence of hazards/knock off and lack of reliable special attackers.