this is mostly why sylveon will never be too great. if it runs shadow ball, it either drops being a cleric {heal bell}, being able to do real damage {calm mind}, or an important part of its healing {wish/protect}. common, powerful 'mons shit on it {aegislash, scizor, lucario}, and it can't really switch in on powerful physical attackers without maximum investment, and even then, hits will do a shitton, particularly se ones. it's a very "slow" pokemon, in the sense that it robs momentum {and literally!}, and can be setup fodder if it's not being powerful enough with its moveset and investment, but then it's often too slow to sweep unless the foe is a dumbass and lets it get to +6 or something, and it misses out on its greatest niche as a bulky cleric. probably some of the worst 4mss of this gen, for sure.
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Pokémon Sylveon
- Thread starter cartercr
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You only run into 4MSS if you don't have a defined role for Sylveon. There are exactly zero Pokemon that can simultaneously be a good cleric, a good special attacker with good coverage and speed, and a mixed tank. It just doesn't work like that. "It could do a bunch of things at once but it can't" is not 4MSS, it's a Pokemon that could fill many roles. If you really want to see 4MSS go see Mega Banette.
The set I run in Pokebank is Hyper Voice/Calm Mind/Wish/Heal Bell. Very simple: cleric that can hit back if it needs to, or even sweep if the opponent can't prevent it from getting a couple Calm Minds. Even with 0 SpA EVs, Pixilate Hyper Voice HURTS. A +2 uninvested Hyper Voice OHKOs nearly anything that doesn't resist.
Yeah it get walled by things like Aegislash and Heatran, but that's what the other five Pokemon are for. People who are thinking it's going to drop to RU or something because it can't simultaneously handle Steel types AND be a cleric are just asking too much out of one Pokemon.
UnicornDemon
Banned deucer.
I ran a special tank sylveon set in pokebank OU with decent results, although I had quite a low ranking at the time- probably accounting for it's success.
Nonetheless, the set was:
252 HP
252+ Sp. Attack (Modest)
-Hyper Voice
-Hidden-Power Ground
-Calm Mind
-Wish
Pixilate boosted hyper voice is pretty ridiculous, with a base power (including STAB) of 90 * 1.3 * 1.5 = 175.5. There's really not much need for a coverage move since it's so powerful, but hidden power ground hits all types that resist fairy. I always had heatrans switching into Sylveon... the poor things.
Obviously, this Sylveon set gets wrecked by strong physical attackers, but the need to constantly switch out didn't bother me since it provided the opportunity to pass wishes to my team-mates, and hypervoice was strong enough to deal heavy damage with only one calm mind boost anyways.
*edit: Just to add, I don't think this pokemon is OU material, but it definitely makes a good alternative to Umbreon as a cleric/wall that sacrifices physical bulk for an offensive presence and could definitely hold it's own in UU.
Nonetheless, the set was:
252 HP
252+ Sp. Attack (Modest)
-Hyper Voice
-Hidden-Power Ground
-Calm Mind
-Wish
Pixilate boosted hyper voice is pretty ridiculous, with a base power (including STAB) of 90 * 1.3 * 1.5 = 175.5. There's really not much need for a coverage move since it's so powerful, but hidden power ground hits all types that resist fairy. I always had heatrans switching into Sylveon... the poor things.
Obviously, this Sylveon set gets wrecked by strong physical attackers, but the need to constantly switch out didn't bother me since it provided the opportunity to pass wishes to my team-mates, and hypervoice was strong enough to deal heavy damage with only one calm mind boost anyways.
*edit: Just to add, I don't think this pokemon is OU material, but it definitely makes a good alternative to Umbreon as a cleric/wall that sacrifices physical bulk for an offensive presence and could definitely hold it's own in UU.
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Here's what I've been having a lot of success with. I use him as a lead and he's pretty effective. THis moveset is really annoying, versatile and durable.
Annoying Sylveon
Item: Rocky Helmet
Ability: Cute Charm
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 S defense
Bold Nature
Wish
Protect
Yawn
Moonblast
A good first move is yawn, then you can take a hit and wish next turn knowing that they'll switch out of it. If you think it will stay in going for the kill after a yawn, just use protect.
He's basically a support/pseudophazer/wish passer with the added utility of being anti-physical attack sponge due to Rocky Helmet and Cute Charm.
On top of that, even with no EV or nature boost, Moonblast hits really really hard from this thing. Wish/protect combined with its bulkiness keeps this thing alive a real long time even without leftovers.
His yawn phazing really comes in to effect if you got rocks/spikes up.
I love this pokemon. It's unbearably cute design adds a lot to his trolling capabilities.
Annoying Sylveon
Item: Rocky Helmet
Ability: Cute Charm
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 S defense
Bold Nature
Wish
Protect
Yawn
Moonblast
A good first move is yawn, then you can take a hit and wish next turn knowing that they'll switch out of it. If you think it will stay in going for the kill after a yawn, just use protect.
He's basically a support/pseudophazer/wish passer with the added utility of being anti-physical attack sponge due to Rocky Helmet and Cute Charm.
On top of that, even with no EV or nature boost, Moonblast hits really really hard from this thing. Wish/protect combined with its bulkiness keeps this thing alive a real long time even without leftovers.
His yawn phazing really comes in to effect if you got rocks/spikes up.
I love this pokemon. It's unbearably cute design adds a lot to his trolling capabilities.
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Could a set like this work:
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Pixelate
252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 defense
Adamant Nature
Wish
Protect
Yawn
Last Resort
Pretty much a physical Sylveon instead of special, good surprise for the enemy and it's natural defenses helps keeping Sylveon alive.
Item: Leftovers
Ability: Pixelate
252 HP, 252 Attack, 4 defense
Adamant Nature
Wish
Protect
Yawn
Last Resort
Pretty much a physical Sylveon instead of special, good surprise for the enemy and it's natural defenses helps keeping Sylveon alive.
A base 65 attack ins't really going to hurt anything, even by surprise, and it's a hell of a lot of work to even pull of an attack.
Surprises like this usually work better when the surprise is actually effective.
Maybe in doubles with Guard/Power swap support? Sounds like it could be a fun gimmick.
Lol i could kiss you for this.
Anyways i think this can go UU as a similar wall to Umbreon (just without the physical bulk), full WhiteMage set, CM set ofcourse. At least compared to what its compared most too it gets Pixelate
How is Last Resort only base 65? It's 140 BP, plus pixilate and STAB makes it power 252. That seems crazy powerful. With that atk and spd ev spread, and delete all other moves to just have Last Resort... extremely gimmicky but hilarious and powerful.
Sylveon has base 65 atk.
0 Atk Pixilate Sylveon Last Resort vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 138-163 (40.4 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Actually Last Resort IS stronger, except its so minor I rather just use Hyper Voice without the limitations.
0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 136-162 (39.8 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Actually Last Resort IS stronger, except its so minor I rather just use Hyper Voice without the limitations.
my gliscor runs max HP and usually survives ice beams, there are suprisingly few pokes that outspeed and ohko max HP gliscor with ice beam, from my experience, greninja is one of them, but greninja is not really a big threat. i wouldnt set up if greninja is alive, i would wait until i had killed him, same with starmie, who is becoming uncommon, and some others
aegislash is actually exactly who i want to switch in, baton pass to gliscor, swords dance as he kings shields, and then its gg
^I think this set would work better if replacing heal bell or hyper voice with wish.
My set:
Attacking Cleric
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect
move 3: Hyper Voice
move 4: Heal Bell
ability: Pixilate
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
With this set Sylveon gains a niche above other clerics not just because of its sturdy defenses along with its typing but also because of its special attacking. STAB and pixilate make Hyper Voice into a 176 power move which will go through substitute. Sylveon's defenses make it rarely 2hko'd by any non-super effective move, and against many ou threats hyper voice will in return 2hko or 3hko them. In many cases, Sylveon is able to keep in and wall pokemon while subsequently screaming them to death. Here's an idea of the Sylveon play style:
switch in -> protect -> wish -> protect -> wish -> hyper voice -> wish (Sylveon is now toxiced) -> heal bell -> wish -> switch to damaged ally that counters opponent -> etc.
This probably helps show some strengths and weaknesses of the set
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-71393976
Notice the damage done to Thundurus on turn 24. Such damage would range from 42.5-50.2% if using moonblast on a cute charm team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-71359713
I found this replay pretty funny :P. It only lasts five turns but shows hyper voice hitting through sub and Sylveon taking a poison jab from Haxorus and returning the favor with another hyper voice.
The higher power and ability to go through subs is more worth it than cute charm, considering cute charm rarely comes into use. It only works on Pokemon of the opposite gender, has a 33% chance of kicking in and only in the case the opponent is using a contact move, and still does not cripple them because they can switch out and get rid of it or still have a 50% chance to hit you if they don't (assuming their move is 100% accurate).
My set:
Attacking Cleric
move 1: Wish
move 2: Protect
move 3: Hyper Voice
move 4: Heal Bell
ability: Pixilate
item: Leftovers
nature: Bold
evs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
With this set Sylveon gains a niche above other clerics not just because of its sturdy defenses along with its typing but also because of its special attacking. STAB and pixilate make Hyper Voice into a 176 power move which will go through substitute. Sylveon's defenses make it rarely 2hko'd by any non-super effective move, and against many ou threats hyper voice will in return 2hko or 3hko them. In many cases, Sylveon is able to keep in and wall pokemon while subsequently screaming them to death. Here's an idea of the Sylveon play style:
switch in -> protect -> wish -> protect -> wish -> hyper voice -> wish (Sylveon is now toxiced) -> heal bell -> wish -> switch to damaged ally that counters opponent -> etc.
This probably helps show some strengths and weaknesses of the set
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-71393976
Notice the damage done to Thundurus on turn 24. Such damage would range from 42.5-50.2% if using moonblast on a cute charm team.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pokebankoubeta-71359713
I found this replay pretty funny :P. It only lasts five turns but shows hyper voice hitting through sub and Sylveon taking a poison jab from Haxorus and returning the favor with another hyper voice.
The higher power and ability to go through subs is more worth it than cute charm, considering cute charm rarely comes into use. It only works on Pokemon of the opposite gender, has a 33% chance of kicking in and only in the case the opponent is using a contact move, and still does not cripple them because they can switch out and get rid of it or still have a 50% chance to hit you if they don't (assuming their move is 100% accurate).
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Sylveon@Choice Specs
Pixilate
252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest
-Hyper Voice
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power Fire/Hidden Power Ground
-Heal Bell
HP Fire nerfs your speed down by 1 point so the 4 speed EVs bring you back up to tying other base 60s (of which there are significantly many). If you use HP Ground then you have just sucessfuly speed creeped Aegislash and Empoleon. Heal Bell seems odd on a specs set but it's useable when you're in against something like a rotom or ferro or chansey or w/e if you really need to get rid of burns on your team. Not many teams are prepared for the sheer power behind those specs hyper voices and it's so great for hitting things that are behind substitutes like kyurem forms. Put this pokemon in slot 1 and gear the rest of your team towards taking out things like Scizor, Aegislash, steels in general. Also use teammates that benefit from the fact that your opponent can't use Outrage. Another useful trait is this thing doesn't really care about being burned or twaved itself.
I used it and liked it a lot, but it's the type of 'mon that needs good teammates. Can't splash it into any old team like Greninja or Genesect. Speaking of:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 145-171 (51.23 - 60.42%) it can only switch in once.
Pixilate
252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe
Modest
-Hyper Voice
-Shadow Ball
-Hidden Power Fire/Hidden Power Ground
-Heal Bell
HP Fire nerfs your speed down by 1 point so the 4 speed EVs bring you back up to tying other base 60s (of which there are significantly many). If you use HP Ground then you have just sucessfuly speed creeped Aegislash and Empoleon. Heal Bell seems odd on a specs set but it's useable when you're in against something like a rotom or ferro or chansey or w/e if you really need to get rid of burns on your team. Not many teams are prepared for the sheer power behind those specs hyper voices and it's so great for hitting things that are behind substitutes like kyurem forms. Put this pokemon in slot 1 and gear the rest of your team towards taking out things like Scizor, Aegislash, steels in general. Also use teammates that benefit from the fact that your opponent can't use Outrage. Another useful trait is this thing doesn't really care about being burned or twaved itself.
I used it and liked it a lot, but it's the type of 'mon that needs good teammates. Can't splash it into any old team like Greninja or Genesect. Speaking of:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 145-171 (51.23 - 60.42%) it can only switch in once.
Why are you trying to tie Base 60s? You should be trying to either beat uninvested ones or not invest in your own Speed at all.
QC's opinion is this for a Specs set:
Sylveon@Choice Specs
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 240 HP / 252 SpA / 16 Spe
Nature: Modest
-Hyper Voice
-Psyshock/Echoed Voice
-Shadow Ball
-Heal Bell/HP Fire
Personally, I'd at least put Psyshock on that set somewhere so Poison-types don't completely wall you. Echoed Voice is also awesome when you can pull it off. It's not like SpecsVeon really needs HP Fire anyways, Shadow Ball hits Aegislash harder and Genesect can't switch in more than once.
For a defensive wish-passing Sylveon, would a specially defensive or a physically defensive set be more favorable?
I am guessing that a physically defensive set is usually the better one due to the ability to more easily sponge a variety of attacks and wish support/stall, etc. but I may be mistaken.
I am guessing that a physically defensive set is usually the better one due to the ability to more easily sponge a variety of attacks and wish support/stall, etc. but I may be mistaken.
I guess Toxic isn't a common moves on set's :/
I run Hyper Voice/Toxic/Wish/Heal Bell.
I remeber the days were I ran Hyper Voice and Moonblast.
I run Hyper Voice/Toxic/Wish/Heal Bell.
That may be true, but did you take natures into account? If not, then Hyper Voice is better, since a +SpAtk nature will boost more than a +Atk nature will, since it multiplies the base stat by 1.1
Edit: It depends on the level as well. In the lower levels stats are always closer, and the higher you go, the more spread out they become. So natures will have a more pronounced effect in higher levels.
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Yes that set could work but many pokemon can run light screen,reflect, and heal bell. Also pokemon that run those 3 moves (exp. Musharna) are a lot more physically defensive than sylveon and have higher HP. While this set is pretty cool sylveon has better things to do than to set up screens.
While vaporeon is my favorite evelution if sylveon is really what you want go for it! But I must ask what set are you gonna use for your (upcoming?) sylveon?
I would be running something along the lines of
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Cute Charm
Bold
HP 252/Def 252/Sp. Atk 4
Wish
Moonblast/Draining Kiss
Calm Mind
Substitute
EDIT: I actually just noticed that the Eevee has Adaptability. Now I'm even more confused on what to do o.0
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:O thats my competitive battling sylveon set! From personal experience it works great but even sylveon with max HP and defense can't take an iron head from excadrill..
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