Pokémon Talonflame

[vonK]

This is my current set:

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- Will-O-Wisp
- U-turn

Fairly standard, though I'm wondering if anyone has any recommendations. For reference he's on a Semi-Stall/Bulky Offense team with Heatran/M-Venusaur/Gliscor as a defensive core and paired with Greninja as part of the offensive core. The 6th member of the team is a toss up but I usually run Forretress for spikes/rapid spin, plus he makes a very interesting Slow Volt-Turn combo with Gliscor where He/Gliscor take the hit and then switch out, granting Greninja or Talonflame safe entry (AND breaking Multiscale).

The Defensive core and Forretress are very effective at wearing opponents down, and Greninja's job is to either sweep at the end or check other, slower (everything is slower than Greninja) threats to the Core like Dragonite or Gengar. Talonflame's job is more of that of an assassin, and he's great at wiping out bulkier Pokemon that threaten the core as well as getting cleaning up any potential messes made by me accidentally allowing a Volcarona/Salamence to boost.

I've seen a lot of interesting utility-centric varieties of Talonflame on this thread but to be honest if you want utility there are better pokemon to provide it. In my opinion Talonflame has one job and that's punching holes through teams with BB/Flare Blitz, differences in Talonflame sets should mainly reflect how you want to punch those holes/what you want to punch. I personally find SD/Bulk Up variants lacking as while they can wreak havok in some teams they also give your opponent to switch out a counter or score a free hit on Talonflame, which he really can't afford.

252 Speed just outspeeds max-EV, positive nature Pinsir, who would otherwise be a serious threat to the team. It does leave Talonflame vulnerable to Mega-Luc though so I'm considering changing it, but Talonflame honestly needs all the firepower he can get because his ONLY defense is his devastating offense. If a pokemon survives Brave Bird then there's a very good chance they can kill him factoring in recoil damage. Choice Band allows Talonflame to be immediately devastating, while also providing slightly more 'bulk' than life orb would. Since the rest of my team (baring Greninja) is fairly defensive I can generally afford to switch Talonflame out without too much trouble so it's limitations aren't that much of an issue. U-turn is rarely used and probably more effective on Life Orb sets but it has its uses. Lastly will'o'wisp is there if I need to immediately neutralize a threat like SD boosted Mega Mawile, as I said Talonflames job is to punch holes it teams, sometimes it just needs to punch them creatively.

So that's my set, if anyone wants to recommend a different moveset/EV spread/item given his role on my team my ears are open.

 

[Schpoonman]

Actually, Adamant Talonflame just barely out speeds base 110s, whereas Mega Pinsir is 105. I run Roost over Will-O-Wisp, getting a second lease on life (obviously without rocks) can mean the difference between sweeping later and not. You really should move those 4 HP EVs, though, it's the difference between 2 and 3 switch-ins.

 

[Jojobobo]

Call me crazy but could a psuedo Sableye set work (defensive with a fast WoW and a priority recover Roost, Taunt/Flare Blitz/U-Turn and an obligatory priority Flying STAB)? Talonflame is more bulky than Sableye (especially when it's recover typically makes it more resistant), but likely you'd have to sacrifice this bulk in order to maintain a good speed on it's WoW - still might be worth consideration (with U-Turn it can get out of sticky situations a lot easier)? I think a priority move would be it's edge over Sableye, being able to finish pokemon at an opportune moment. You'd definitely have to be able to predict switches like a boss, in order for Azumarril to not spoil your day; obviously you still wouldn't catch more physically based scarfers if they become more prevalent post-bank and you'd have to be wary of SR.

As rough outline:

Talonflame @ Leftovers
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 Def
Jolly Nature
- Roost
- Aerial Ace
- U-turn/Flare Blitz/Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp

The stats and nature are just placeholders as I can't be bothered with optimization at this time of night (speed tiers for WoW putting the rest into Def), but you get the gist.

P.S. I've not read this entire enormous thread to see if this has already been suggested.

 

[vonK]

Actually, Adamant Talonflame just barely out speeds base 110s, whereas Mega Pinsir is 105. I run Roost over Will-O-Wisp, getting a second lease on life (obviously without rocks) can mean the difference between sweeping later and not. You really should move those 4 HP EVs, though, it's the difference between 2 and 3 switch-ins.

So just run 0 HP EVs and probably put the 4 into defense? Also does roost work well with CB? Talonflame with some staying power would be nice, but will'o'wisp is quite valuable as an emergency stopgap against M-mawile and certain other threats.

 

[S0L1D G0LD]

So just run 0 HP EVs and probably put the 4 into defense? Also does roost work well with CB? Talonflame with some staying power would be nice, but will'o'wisp is quite valuable as an emergency stopgap against M-mawile and certain other threats.

No, roost works horrible with cb. You just get to heal once, and then switch out.

 

[Raigin]

A priority in Roost is what I find the most interesting. I think a good set would revolve around spreading burns with will-o-wisp, roosting, u-turns and acrobatics to take down weakened pokemon could work, despite talonflame's generally weak bulk. Unfortunately, Stealth rock will always be a pain for Talonflame.

Stealth rock will always be a pain for Talonflame thats why i would prefer SD or Bulk up since it was design to swipe in my team, after setting up my entry hazards. so just withdrew, if your dealing with RW and other bulky rock,ground, water, PKMN

 

[Midknight]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here already, but... Isn't sitrus berry a decent item here? Seems like the perfect middle road for power vs survivability, since it can sweep much longer or set up more easily. I haven't seen anyone mention it, but it just seems to make perfect sense. It even leaves a little bit of room for the possibility of acrobatics, but this is is somewhat hard to plan for, which makes brave bird much better still in my opinion. Dunno. I've been running kings rock for lack of a better item (choice item on talonflame feels like heresy to me), when I realized I could run sitrus berry to much better effect. Opinions?

 

[AOPSUser]

I'm not sure if this has been discussed here already, but... Isn't sitrus berry a decent item here? Seems like the perfect middle road for power vs survivability, since it can sweep much longer or set up more easily. I haven't seen anyone mention it, but it just seems to make perfect sense. It even leaves a little bit of room for the possibility of acrobatics, but this is is somewhat hard to plan for, which makes brave bird much better still in my opinion. Dunno. I've been running kings rock for lack of a better item (choice item on talonflame feels like heresy to me), when I realized I could run sitrus berry to much better effect. Opinions?

Sitrus Berry is kinda one of the worst items you can run on anything. Offensive mons prefer LO, Choice, or a type-boosting item like Sky Plate. Defensive mons like Leftovers. Talonflame is taking about zero hits against good opponents, and switching it into an attack that does 60% or something is hard since most attacks either do nothing or over 80-90, which means you're pretty much dead.

Use Sky Plate or Life Orb if you don't want to play choice. There's no such thing as survivability when it comes to Talonflame.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Sitrus Berry is kinda one of the worst items you can run on anything. Offensive mons prefer LO, Choice, or a type-boosting item like Sky Plate. Defensive mons like Leftovers. Talonflame is taking about zero hits against good opponents, and switching it into an attack that does 60% or something is hard since most attacks either do nothing or over 80-90, which means you're pretty much dead.

Use Sky Plate or Life Orb if you don't want to play choice. There's no such thing as survivability when it comes to Talonflame.

I think Sky Plate/Shark Beak > Life Orb on any Talonflame simply because flying moves will certainly be the most used and most Flare Blitz targets are 4x weak or frail and easily OHKOd anyway.

 

[Midknight]

> no survivability
> most sets run roost

?

I'm saying that he can kill a whole 2 extra pokemon with the extra health (so he doesn't die to recoil). If you play talonflame right, you aren't just switching him around into attacks that deal 80-90% lol. That's stupid no matter what item you have. I'm not suggesting this item for the sake of taking hits, it's for the sake of having 25% more hp to absorb recoil damage. IF on the off chance you know your TF will survive the next hit, you can SD and take the hit, but instead of having X% of HP left, you have X+25% HP. When you are sweeping with purely recoil moves, that gives you up to a whole 2 more kills, depending on what you are attacking.

On another note, you can switch into SR more easily.

Seems like you guys are claiming that extra damage is far superior to a longer sweep, and I see your point there. However, I mostly use TF to revenge kill. I "sweep" if I can get up a SD, but otherwise I only leave him in against stuff I know he can kill. In this case, life orb is useless because my attacks will kill my opponents anyway. Leftovers is asking a lot from TF, because it takes 4 turns of being active to get the same benefit as one sitrus berry. I'm just not buying the argument that this is bad.


Edit: I should clarify that I appreciate your opinion AOPSUser, but I still think the arguments you presented are flawed.

 

[AOPSUser]

> no survivability
> most sets run roost

?

I'm saying that he can kill a whole 2 extra pokemon with the extra health (so he doesn't die to recoil). If you play talonflame right, you aren't just switching him around into attacks that deal 80-90% lol. That's stupid no matter what item you have. I'm not suggesting this item for the sake of taking hits, it's for the sake of having 25% more hp to absorb recoil damage. IF on the off chance you know your TF will survive the next hit, you can SD and take the hit, but instead of having X% of HP left, you have X+25% HP. When you are sweeping with purely recoil moves, that gives you up to a whole 2 more kills, depending on what you are attacking.

On another note, you can switch into SR more easily.

Seems like you guys are claiming that extra damage is far superior to a longer sweep, and I see your point there. However, I mostly use TF to revenge kill. I "sweep" if I can get up a SD, but otherwise I only leave him in against stuff I know he can kill. In this case, life orb is useless because my attacks will kill my opponents anyway. Leftovers is asking a lot from TF, because it takes 4 turns of being active to get the same benefit as one sitrus berry. I'm just not buying the argument that this is bad.


Edit: I should clarify that I appreciate your opinion AOPSUser, but I still think the arguments you presented are flawed.

If you use it to revenge kill, it really wants Sky Plate or Choice Band. It does not have power with Sitrus Berry, and Roost even nullifies any use of it other than to power up Acrobatics. Talonflame is not going to survive any attacks your opponent purposely throws at it, it's mostly switching in on Earthquakes and Fire Blasts that wouldn't even knock it even close into Sitrus range.

Basically, Sitrus lets you hit one more Brave Bird, but Choice Band makes those 3-4 Brave Birds you hit actually count, while Sky Plate lets you Roost.

 

[Punchshroom]

Well, to be fair, Bulk Up Talonflame can survive a shockingly high number of attacks opponents throw at it, but Sitrus is still a bad idea. Waiting for it to activate just to make Acrobatics usable isn't worth it as it can put Talon at risk, you'd be better off using Leftovers Brave Bird if recoil concerns you.

 

[meteor64]

I think Sky Plate/Shark Beak > Life Orb on any Talonflame simply because flying moves will certainly be the most used and most Flare Blitz targets are 4x weak or frail and easily OHKOd anyway.

While for the most part I can agree here, it might be worthwhile on Roost+3 Attacks Talonflame given that a 1.3x more powerful U-turn does quite nice damage on TTar.

 

[November Blue]

> no survivability
> most sets run roost

?

I'm saying that he can kill a whole 2 extra pokemon with the extra health (so he doesn't die to recoil). If you play talonflame right, you aren't just switching him around into attacks that deal 80-90% lol. That's stupid no matter what item you have. I'm not suggesting this item for the sake of taking hits, it's for the sake of having 25% more hp to absorb recoil damage. IF on the off chance you know your TF will survive the next hit, you can SD and take the hit, but instead of having X% of HP left, you have X+25% HP. When you are sweeping with purely recoil moves, that gives you up to a whole 2 more kills, depending on what you are attacking.

On another note, you can switch into SR more easily.

Seems like you guys are claiming that extra damage is far superior to a longer sweep, and I see your point there. However, I mostly use TF to revenge kill. I "sweep" if I can get up a SD, but otherwise I only leave him in against stuff I know he can kill. In this case, life orb is useless because my attacks will kill my opponents anyway. Leftovers is asking a lot from TF, because it takes 4 turns of being active to get the same benefit as one sitrus berry. I'm just not buying the argument that this is bad.


Edit: I should clarify that I appreciate your opinion AOPSUser, but I still think the arguments you presented are flawed.

Sitrus Berry? ehh.

If you're switching into Stealth Rock and avoiding taking hits, Sitrus won't really help, as SR deals twice as much as Sitrus heals. If you're using it with Defog to mitigate recoil, then I think you'd get much better mileage out of Sky Plate + Roost.

My Talonflame runs Sky Plate, when I had previously used LO. The difference is incredible. While U-turn loses some power, Flare Blitz still KOes what it needs to. Brave Bird is the only move that really "needs" the boost, anyway. With HP investment, it doesn't take nearly as much recoil, and makes it much harder to get rid of.

I find that dealing with Talonflame often comes down to letting it kamikaze itself, and finishing it off with one of my walls. Talonflame whittles itself down throughout the match, and with all of the switches it causes it's incredibly easy to get a free Roosting turn, which can give it a second wind. I can't tell you how many times a single Roost has saved my Talonflame and allowed it to sweep the opponent's team before succumbing to recoil.

In this vein, I'm struggling to justify using a Choice Band on it. I often use Brave Bird on Flying-weak mons and frail mons, and I'm not sure how much of a difference the power increase makes. Talonflame does its best sweeping/cleaning work lategame, and being locked into a single move would be detrimental. Ferrothorn can switch into choice-locked Brave Bird, for example.

 

[Lee]

Talonflame is decently bulky if you're smart enough to run minimal Spe EVs and invest in bulk. I outrun Jolly Excadrill and I'm yet to be convinced of any good reason to run more. Jolly Mega Pinsir is rare and needs to be at +2 AND have Stealth Rock support to nab the KO. Opposing Talonflame is a thing but good players don't win matches by relying on winning speed tie mirror matches (see: DP Garchomp). Anybody who used Sarenjii's Moltres in previous gens will know that Fire/Flying is a terrific defensive typing if you can keep SR away - a Ground immunity and resistances to Fighting, Bug, Grass, Steel and now Fairy are all great utilities to have. Furthermore, any HP investment increases the amount of time you can BB/FB before recoil catches up with you.

Talonflame @ Choice Band
Adamant
202 HP / 252 Atk / 56 Spe
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz
- U-turn
- Tailwind / Roost

Decently bulky for what it is.

+2 LO Adamant Lucario Extremespeed vs 202 HP Talonflame = 84% - 99%

Can also do shit like switch in on CB Terrakion's Close Combat, take the hit, OHKO with Brave Bird and not die in the process (you need at least 156 HP EVs to do this for reference).

The situational advantages that come from that bulk and 50~ extra HP points (hello recoil) come in useful in nearly every game while the ability to speed-tie an opposing Talonflame or deck Pinsir before being hit by +2 Quick Attack (does an average of 79% by the way...there's actually a miniscule chance of taking the hit and still having enough health to KO a 100% Pinsir with BB without dying to recoil in the process) come in handy once in a blue moon.

 

[Punchshroom]

Sitrus Berry? ehh.

If you're switching into Stealth Rock and avoiding taking hits, Sitrus won't really help, as SR deals twice as much as Sitrus heals. If you're using it with Defog to mitigate recoil, then I think you'd get much better mileage out of Sky Plate + Roost.

My Talonflame runs Sky Plate, when I had previously used LO. The difference is incredible. While U-turn loses some power, Flare Blitz still KOes what it needs to. Brave Bird is the only move that really "needs" the boost, anyway. With HP investment, it doesn't take nearly as much recoil, and makes it much harder to get rid of.

I find that dealing with Talonflame often comes down to letting it kamikaze itself, and finishing it off with one of my walls. Talonflame whittles itself down throughout the match, and with all of the switches it causes it's incredibly easy to get a free Roosting turn, which can give it a second wind. I can't tell you how many times a single Roost has saved my Talonflame and allowed it to sweep the opponent's team before succumbing to recoil.

In this vein, I'm struggling to justify using a Choice Band on it. I often use Brave Bird on Flying-weak mons and frail mons, and I'm not sure how much of a difference the power increase makes. Talonflame does its best sweeping/cleaning work lategame, and being locked into a single move would be detrimental. Ferrothorn can switch into choice-locked Brave Bird, for example.

Choice Band Talon is very straightforward, quite literally the epitome of "Brave Bird everything (Flare Blitz everything else)". This linearity makes it very 'lop-sided' when it comes to checking it: either it cleans house on you, or you stop it cold.

Setup Talons on the other hand throw something very interesting into the mix. Now that they're not spamming BB left and right, they can choose how they want to steamroll the opponent's team. Taunt and Roost play big factors in the difference of playstyles between the two Talons. That Ferrothorn or Gliscor you've been relying on to keep Talon in check? Suddenly the tables have turned in the most disastrous way possible, and you can do little to stop Talon from racking up boosts and killing you far more effectively than a Banded Talon would.

Talonflame is unlike any 'kamikaze' sweeper I've ever seen. It's a well known fact that residual damage plays a big role in taking down Talon, but relying solely on it to keep the bird in check can result in a brutal wake-up call.

 

[skies]

Guys, are we gonna talk about the largest counter to Talonflame out there? A Pokemon that lay in NU for all of B/W2. One that is lurking in the depths to prove its worth. That's right, this Pokemon is... REGIROCK! Regirock literally counters this thing no matter what, for example:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Regirock: 282-333 (93.6 - 110.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
Not even a guranteed OHKO... Then with 252/252+:
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 202-238 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+6 252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 316-372 (86.8 - 102.1%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
then:
0- Atk Regirock Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Talonflame: 348-412 (96.6 - 114.4%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
Yeah, Regirock has nothing to fear. Then we have typical Life Orb and Choice Band:
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 80-96 (21.9 - 26.3%) -- 12.5% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 51-60 (14 - 16.4%) -- possible 7HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Steel Wing vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 70-83 (19.2 - 22.8%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Regirock: 43-52 (11.8 - 14.2%) -- possible 7HKO
the damage output that Talonflame gives to Regirock is so pitiful. Slap a Rocky Helmet on Regirock and bam, Talonflame has nothing it can do. Regirock does have a nice for countering both Aegislash and Talonflame, which not many things can brag about.

 

[Bent1ey]

For a moment there I thought you were going to talk about Magcargo.

Magcargo is not affected by WoW and can Recover off damage. So damn broken.

 

[November Blue]

Magcargo in OU? Being useful? Oh god, that'd be hilarious. I would like to see it happen, though.


There's definitely something to be said for Swords Dance + Acrobatics Talonflame. I distinctly remember one taking down my Slowbro a while ago, and not losing a single point of HP in the process.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

Are we still discussing counters? Every rock type worth its weight can force Talonflame to switch out, you got bulky water types, fast electric types, intimidate (unless you can boost), and a lot of others. Basically, Talonflame is very effective at what it does, but you can't pretend its that overpowered god everyone thought it was 2 months ago

 

[Punchshroom]

There's definitely something to be said for Swords Dance + Acrobatics Talonflame. I distinctly remember one taking down my Slowbro a while ago, and not losing a single point of HP in the process.

+2 252+ Atk Flying Gem Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 252-297 (63.9 - 75.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 195-229 (49.4 - 58.1%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Your Slowbro must've taken quite a beating beforehand already.

 

[Jojobobo]

Baby-Doll Eyes might be useful against it as a psuedo-burn nerf, especially is you have an SR in play to discourage it from switching and it lacks SD.

 

[TKGriffiths]

I noticed a few mistakes in the analysis in the original post. It says that Flying Gem Acrobatics outdamages Flying Gem Brave Bird which is obviously wrong, also Adamant Talonflame needs 164 speed EVs to outspeed +ve nature base 100 speed pokemon like Jirachi, not 132 EVs as listed in the analysis.

 

[Schpoonman]

Fifth Gem Flying Gem Acrobatics would outdamage Life Orb Brave Bird over one turn, but I think the second Brave Bird has greater accumulative damage and obviously subsequent Brave Birds outstrips Acrobatics by a huge margin. I haven't heard anything about type gems in a while but last I DID hear they were nerfed to only a 30% boost so the only realistic reason to run them is to escape Brave Bird/Life Orb recoil. But Brave Bird is so much more powerful that I don't really feel like it's worth it.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Fifth Gem Flying Gem Acrobatics would outdamage Life Orb Brave Bird over one turn, but I think the second Brave Bird has greater accumulative damage and obviously subsequent Brave Birds outstrips Acrobatics by a huge margin. I haven't heard anything about type gems in a while but last I DID hear they were nerfed to only a 30% boost so the only realistic reason to run them is to escape Brave Bird/Life Orb recoil. But Brave Bird is so much more powerful that I don't really feel like it's worth it.

I know Flying Gem Acrobatics outdamages Life Orb Brave Bird, that's not what I said, I said the original post claims Flying Gem Acrobatics outdamages Flying Gem Brave Bird. Also I believe that 176 speed EVs with an Adamant nature is the best benchmark because it lets you outspeed +ve nature max speed Thundurus-T.