But see, when you display ignorance of Pokemon-knowledge like that, people are sure to question your opinion in the subject at hand, especially Shadow Tag works the EXACT SAME as it did in Advance. Can you really blame people ? My apologies if I did, in fact, offend you.
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
The De-Uberization.
- Thread starter Lyfsaho
- Start date
- Status
Notice how I said something such as MIXape. Mixed attackers give Wobbuffet a huge problem as the user has to predict perfectly to not get destroyed and actually do some damage in the process. It's not as if when he comes in, the opponent instantly has to begin repeating their move over and over even before Encore happens.
Not all attacking pokemon are Choiced, and not all walls have no attacks.
If Wobbuffet comes in on a Mixed Attacker that can 2HKO it, and the user can't predict which type of attack is going to come at it, it's going to die not doing any damage, even if it Encores.
Plus, there's always the case of being able to use Encore ON Wobbuffet. It's not that hard considering a lot of Encore users are faster than him. Encore messes Wobbuffet up badly.
@footballfanatic: You chose to have a conversation with someone that not only included making more insults, which is obviously not the way to stop insults, and you could also have that conversation in PM. That's why it's ruining the thread, and you did that with the Darkrai thread, I don't know what's wrong here, but that's just not right.
Uh, unless Wobbuffet has just killed something via Toxic/Storm/etc stall, no Poke can ever come in to use Encore on it. And if you're faster and Wobbu just switched into you, of course it's going to pull off an Encore while you won't...
Manaphy was tested. I distinctly remember it being OU for a long time.
Wobbuffet IIRC was tested in the first smogon D/P tournament. He isn't listed in the banned types. I was a n00b back then, so my memory may be playing on me. But to the best of my memory, Wobbuffet WAS tested in a competitive environment, and deemed Uber by the 2nd smogon D/P tournament. Like Manaphy, there is nothing more to say. Their test periods are done and over with.
Mew is Uber. Period. Massive movepool, BP anything to anyone (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Barrier, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Amnesia... only missing Agility), pseudo-pass any screen, hypnosis, high defense tiers, 101 subs, reliable recovery (softboiled)... and a totally unpredictable moveset.
Deoxys E... I haven't faced one yet. They seem to be somewhat rare on Shoddybattle ladder...
Wobbuffet IIRC was tested in the first smogon D/P tournament. He isn't listed in the banned types. I was a n00b back then, so my memory may be playing on me. But to the best of my memory, Wobbuffet WAS tested in a competitive environment, and deemed Uber by the 2nd smogon D/P tournament. Like Manaphy, there is nothing more to say. Their test periods are done and over with.
Mew is Uber. Period. Massive movepool, BP anything to anyone (Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, Barrier, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Amnesia... only missing Agility), pseudo-pass any screen, hypnosis, high defense tiers, 101 subs, reliable recovery (softboiled)... and a totally unpredictable moveset.
Deoxys E... I haven't faced one yet. They seem to be somewhat rare on Shoddybattle ladder...
That's the beauty of encore, use it on the mixed attacker- which usually don't hit nearly as hard as their non-mixed counterparts- and either KO them right back or switch to a counter.
You're basically suggesting that every member of someone's team either carry taunt, be a mixed attacker than can 2hko him (please name a few, for starters Infernape with Life Orb 4hko's +nature versions and barely 3hko's neutral nature with Flamethrower), or have a sleep move. Any member of the team that isn't one of those 3 is fodder for Wobbuffet and a wasted slot if he's there. Hmm, sounds like overcentralization. Even if there are a few counters in OU, Kyogre has counters in OU. Is that justification for unbanning him?
And I never insulted footballs, but when he keeps saying things like Latios can't learn dragon dance, Tyranitar counters specs Latios, Shadow Tag used to be permanent in 3rd gen, etc. it's hard to imagine he plays competitive Pokemon often.
My apologys, I misinturperrted a post made by you and another user while reading the topic.
Also, I never said anywhere that Wobbuffet can easily come into any attack, take the hit, encore while taking a second hit, and then take a third to Mirror Coat / Counter.
So their aren't any logs of battles or logs of discussions of both Manaphy and Wobbuffet? I'm also under the impression that both Manaphy and Wobbuffet were tested pre shoddy?
I really want to see what makes Manaphy so uber. The information that was provided to me is unsatisfactory. "We tested Manaphy and we have no logs of battles or logs of discussion of it" End of Story.
Meh, I was on the OU side of the Manaphy debate actually back then. :-p
There was a huge discussion on Manaphy, Uber vs OU. It was really the only thing to discuss when it came to Ubers back then (everything else == infraction). Unfortunately, search is... disabled. I don't know when it was, nor the title of the thread. But the thread does exist... somewhere...
For Wobbuffet, again, I was a n00b back then. I wouldn't have thought of anything like that, I just remember that tourny was to test Wobbuffet.
There was a huge discussion on Manaphy, Uber vs OU. It was really the only thing to discuss when it came to Ubers back then (everything else == infraction). Unfortunately, search is... disabled. I don't know when it was, nor the title of the thread. But the thread does exist... somewhere...
For Wobbuffet, again, I was a n00b back then. I wouldn't have thought of anything like that, I just remember that tourny was to test Wobbuffet.
As for right now, do you personally feel that Manaphy should be retested? I do remember the thread but no search ;_; Even then the information that I remember was in it didn't really show me that it was uber.
Manaphy coming back would be a massive blow to the current metagame. It would serve as an excellent counter to the ever-present MixApe (LOL at Grass Knot, Manaphy weighs nothing) and shift some benefits towards Rain Dance teams.
I do think that it would overall reduce diversity in the metagame. I agree that Manaphy is a weak Uber pokemon, but it is an excellent bulky water (it is only 1 def. tier below Suicune), and a tail glow sweeper. Funny, 100 base speed ain't so fast anymore... but it still is fast enough.
It really is a borderline case... but I need to sleep now instead of brooding about this. >_>
I do think that it would overall reduce diversity in the metagame. I agree that Manaphy is a weak Uber pokemon, but it is an excellent bulky water (it is only 1 def. tier below Suicune), and a tail glow sweeper. Funny, 100 base speed ain't so fast anymore... but it still is fast enough.
It really is a borderline case... but I need to sleep now instead of brooding about this. >_>
Yay, I found the old OU/Uber discussion thread wasting away on page 70!
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25779
I believe this is the one that had the Manaphy discussion in it.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25779
I believe this is the one that had the Manaphy discussion in it.
Rock Polish TM FTW.
Wow. I already said I was looking at the Latias page, and didn't see Dragon Dance so I assumed Latios didn't get it either. I guess not knowing the entire movepool of an Uber poke makes me a bad OU battler right? I never said Tyranitar countered Specstias, I said Tyrantiar is a Latias counter, Tyranitar can beat any set but the Specs set. After a Calm Mind, Modest Max Sp. Attack Latios(Timid would be the standard) does 42-50% to CBTar, almost never a 2HKO. Assuming you switched in on the Calm Mind, you should be able to take a Dragon Pulse and hit Latias for 159% minimum with Crunch which is a OHKO with pursuit if Latias switches, and a 2HKO if it doesn't. I never said that Shadow Tag used to be permanent in Adv, I thought it was permanent because the Smogon description says it is. Plus, How does my knowledge of an advanced Uber affect my D/P OU battling skills?
All that information is right on Smogon, you took the time to write 10 posts on the basis that "Shadow Tag is different now" so you have the time to look it up. And if you know what Specsmence can do, you should know what Specs Latios can do.
You already killed the thread, but if you'd like me to reiterate, Specs Latios 2hko's tar every time, why CM when you can Draco Meteor just like Specsmence- which would obviously be the standard OU set?
There's nothing wrong with being incorrect, just admit it and move on instead of arguing with everyone in two whole threads. Also, nowhere on Smogon does it say shadow tag lasts indefinately.
You already killed the thread, but if you'd like me to reiterate, Specs Latios 2hko's tar every time, why CM when you can Draco Meteor just like Specsmence- which would obviously be the standard OU set?
There's nothing wrong with being incorrect, just admit it and move on instead of arguing with everyone in two whole threads. Also, nowhere on Smogon does it say shadow tag lasts indefinately.
A great find, thanks. It has opened my eyes to how powerful Manaphy is, but in comparison it reminds me of certain other pokemon allowed in OU.
I see what you mean but as I see the DP metagame right now; it borders on over centralization with some of the current pokemon that are already allowed. I felt that Manaphy could help stop some of this current over centralization, not create more. I just feel that Manaphy should be tested again now that the Metagame has evolved and seemes alot more stable than when the first discussions of Manaphy's uberdom came out.
I'd say the poll results speak for themselves ;)
I made a post kind of like this, but I started on it before you made this thread, I just forgot to hit post. However, your poll is horrible. What if I want to unban only Kyogre? How about Deoxys-D and Ho-oh but reban Deoxys-S? If you can't incorporate all the options, don't make a poll. If you can incorporate all the options, a poll still generally isn't that good, because I don't particularly care what Joe User who uses Grovyle in his uber team "because its leet" thinks. A single informed, informative post is worth vastly more than a poll of a thousand users.
So no, in response to the above poster, the poll results don't speak for themselves, because several people simply cannot vote (such as me), and Smogon isn't a democracy. Someone said "And someone's going to joke about Smogon not being a democracy" or words to that effect in another thread, but it's not a joke. It isn't a democracy. Ideas are judged by their merit, not their popularity.
So no, in response to the above poster, the poll results don't speak for themselves, because several people simply cannot vote (such as me), and Smogon isn't a democracy. Someone said "And someone's going to joke about Smogon not being a democracy" or words to that effect in another thread, but it's not a joke. It isn't a democracy. Ideas are judged by their merit, not their popularity.
This is the fucking stupidest thread I've seen in ages. Eventually if we move all the ubers to OU we won't have an Uber tier anymore, it will be just OU. That's what ubers is, Ubers + OU, basically any Pokemon you want to use. OU is a step down from that.
If you really want to use ubers, PLAY ubers. Its simple. Stop with all this bullshit
If you really want to use ubers, PLAY ubers. Its simple. Stop with all this bullshit
Uh, that's pretty fucking stupid in and of itself. If all the ubers get moved to Smogon's OU tier, it's because they're counterable in standard play without centralizing the metagame (forcing teams to carry them or overly-specialized counters to them), and that's exactly what standard is supposed to be. If the situation you're whining about actually happens, you'd be whining about the loss of a tier that has absolutely no good reason to exist.
Ubers does not exist to be a metagame. Ubers exists as a side-effect of making the metagame.
Heres the thing they where never tested together.Cresse,Blissey and Deoxy LG will guarantee that no special attacker runs wild.Darkrai murders psychics types ,guess what types Mew,Latias,Deoxy.Wobby, Celebi are?We may have ban upper tier of pokemon comparable to banning t-tar, garachomp, Salamence, Metagross,etc... Think about is Latias as the top poke and making every standard team have to be counter it any different than salamence as the top poke and every standard team you make has to have counter for it.
I agree, I realized that about...2 minutes after hitting post, but since you can't change polls on here after you posted them...yeah. I initially made it just to draw more attention to the matter at hand, but there are too many options on incorporate in a poll, and thus everyone takes the easiest one.
Partly agree, here. Manaphy would help counter some things that ARE overcentralizing the metagame at this moment. Why the hell is Tentacruel an OU on the Tier List? Because every third person gets one now to counter mixape nowadays on shoddy. What is the purpose of Hitmontop's existance? To counter boah. etc, etc.
@ the poster above me: He can't vote because he doesn't agree with any of the options <_< .
Actually, I would think it has something to do with being a mod...
But back on-topic. I think the best course of action is to unban the 5 Ubers listed in this thread, and see what happens. Guess what, if they are too powerful, THEY WILL BE REBANNED. I (nor anyone else) is suggesting we make a decision now that is to be set in stone. All we are looking for is the opportunity to test out the Pokemon.
To be brunt, ultimatefreshness is a perfect example of the kind if poster that should not be posting in this thread:
* He uses swearing and insults to demean what he doesn't agree with
* His opinion is too traditional, wanting to keep them as Ubers because "they've always been Ubers"
* He assumes we all just want the opportunity to play with these Ubers.
But back on-topic. I think the best course of action is to unban the 5 Ubers listed in this thread, and see what happens. Guess what, if they are too powerful, THEY WILL BE REBANNED. I (nor anyone else) is suggesting we make a decision now that is to be set in stone. All we are looking for is the opportunity to test out the Pokemon.
To be brunt, ultimatefreshness is a perfect example of the kind if poster that should not be posting in this thread:
* He uses swearing and insults to demean what he doesn't agree with
* His opinion is too traditional, wanting to keep them as Ubers because "they've always been Ubers"
* He assumes we all just want the opportunity to play with these Ubers.
- Status