The Element of Surprise

[Karrot]

When I use "surprise movesets," it is usually to increase the chances that my team's strategy is to be executed correctly. These surprises are also there as a "backup" in case my primary execution of my strategy fails. That said, surprises are pointless unless they can aid your basic team strategy.

I also believe UU/NU Pokemon do not fall into the category of "surprises" (as depicted by this topic) when played in the OU environment, as some people believe, unless their moveset is unorthodox. UU/NU Pokemon cannot be described as "surprises" because if that Pokemon is using a known moveset (such as one found in Smogon's Strategy Pokedex) and the opponent is surprised by it, they can mostly be described as incompetent in their general knowledge of Pokemon.

 

[iruchii]

I didn't say the Pokémon themselves were the surprises, though.
I just said surprises were an important aspect in UU and NU battles.

 

[Karrot]

I wasn't talking about you, otherwise I would have specifically directed it to you for the sake of an argument. You did give me a few ideas in mentioning the UU/NU metagame, though, which in turn spawned my thoughts.

 

[obi]

Obi, it's good to have your opinion on surprise sets, but you yourself admit that you are a special case. How effective the element of surprise is for a player depends on which play environment is used and on who they are.

I'm operating under the assumption that people will plan to be a top player. If their team is truly successful, they will get noticed, and thus join the group of people who can't rely on surprise (unless they change their team or their name often, and the second isn't perfect because people will just think you ripped off the team). If it isn't successful, then it doesn't really matter and they should consider making a new team.

If you're arguing that all unorthodox sets that may surprise the opponent are a bad idea, I can't say I agree with you. If you're arguing that the only kind of set that can surprise the opponent is a set that would work better on another Pokémon (which I assume you're not), then that's just silly.

I used Hidden Power Grass on Tyranitar a lot in ADV. I liked having the surprise part a lot, but even when it wore off, it would keep Swampert from walling me, and Swampert is on a ton of ADV teams. I'm arguing against surprise for the sake of surprise. In other words, sacrificing effectiveness to add surprise.

In my JAA team, yes, there were no Pokemon that could do it better, but if someone knows what kind of strategy I am going to do, it's possible to nullify it with an investment of a single Pokemon, and maybe modify a few sets. If someone does this, my chances of winning would drop dramatically. I relied on surprise with the strategy itself, not just the Pokemon used.

 

[Llama]

The element of Surprise, I feel is a very good thing to have as long as your teams integrity is not sacrificed. For example I use a breloom with a prefectly normal set and evs, faster than your average suicune. One day I faced an opponent that had a suicune with speed evs just so they topped the usual breloom. It screwed me over completely and I ended up losing. Suffice to say the power of surprise is great, but like many things only in moderation.

 

[TheMaskedNitpicker]

I used Hidden Power Grass on Tyranitar a lot in ADV. I liked having the surprise part a lot, but even when it wore off, it would keep Swampert from walling me, and Swampert is on a ton of ADV teams. I'm arguing against surprise for the sake of surprise. In other words, sacrificing effectiveness to add surprise.

Ah, looks like we're in agreement, then. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[DeLorean]

Surprise factor only works once, so I find it's really helpful if you only need to use it once. Similar to the way that prominent special sweeper may use a physical fighting type move, like focus punch Gengar.

 

[Veteran In Love]

The true test of a solid team is how well it performs even when 85-90% of its pokemon and sets are known.

If one can keep churning out surprise sets to win consistently enough, that's fine.

But it always, always boils down to prediction and multi-level thinking in important games - i have never seen great tournament players win consistently time and time again by solely relying on the tactics of their team.

 

[gorm]

I used Hidden Power Grass on Tyranitar a lot in ADV. I liked having the surprise part a lot, but even when it wore off, it would keep Swampert from walling me, and Swampert is on a ton of ADV teams.

this is a really important point. "Strange sets", even after the surprise factor, do not "lose their value" once revealed since so many teams have ways of handling "regular" sets but are totally messed up by the stranger sets.

 

[Amelia]

Well, surprise sets can really give you the edge in tournaments, where you use the team once, and make a new team for each person you're facing. Like in doorman's tourney, where you can only use RBY Pokemon in a DP game, I won because my Scarf Jolteon completely threw Doorman's team offguard, outspeeding and killing everything, just because he never expected it. (I can say it right now because we're both out of the tourney).

 

[Scofield]

The problem of "surprise" is where a lot of scarfers go wrong. A lot of scarfers just don't hit hard enough to be effective once the surprise is gone. Something that is "surprising" yet still effective when known is cbmence. A lot of people switch in their cressys or whatever, not expecting to be 2hko'ed. But even if they know that I have a cb, it has just enough speed to still be a threat no matter what, going as far as 3hkoing skarmory.

 

[blasphemy1]

I agree that the element of surprise can be over-rated. People were even discussing a DP Druidcruel, if you can believe it.

On the other hand, the element of surprise may just win you the battle. I know that recently, in my tournament match with LonelyNess, I used a lesser-seen set that picked off his counter, and from there I swept easily. Using Scarf Jirachi may seem like lame bullshit until it OHKOes your Gengar with Psychic before it can put it to sleep, even if it is essentially worthless after it takes out a single Pokemon.

DP Druidcruel works quite well, tho. How about setting up on those pityful Suicune/Vaporeon? Sure, not all surprises work 100% of the time, however they can aid to your team's specific goal(Agility Empoleon w/out Grass Knot has trouble getting past the two aforementioned pokemon, and Toxic Spikes are often a waste of time with the dominance of TS immune pokemon). However, in the general scope of things, yes, the element of surprise isn't always an 100% distinct advantage, but it can be if used correctly.

 

[tripe]

I've used the element to nail opponents down, like earlier, after I eliminated a person's Scizor, I just used scarf Latias to clean up their last 2 pokemon. They bring a scarf Flygon, only to get draco meteor'd in the face, thinking they were faster than me. Scarf Latias is certainly not standard, and lacks a little in the power department, but makes a fine revenge killer. Just make sure Scizor and Tyranitar are out of the way.

I even used a DD mixed Salamence, like 2 months ago, it wasn't the most effective, but it cause my opponent headaches, since they didn't know what to switch to. It almost guaranteed me a DD each game, and at least a kill, because of the sheer fact that they didn't know what to switch to, and by to the time, they swapped to Blissey, I've gained enough power to one-shot her with Brick break. Even if I mispredicted, and they swap to something to like Bronzong, it'd still cause enough damage for it to be revenged easily by my other teammates, or if they swapped in something Hippowdon while I brick breaked, I could still finish it with Draco meteor.

 

[Rurushu]

Surprise sets can be good, as long as they aren't just for one use and supports the team with teh surprise factor.

Let me use Mixrachi as a example. He is a good wall breaker and a surprise set (without leftovers, almost everybody will assume that he is a Choiced) but what he has over, let's say...Infernape in the mixed sweeper role? Of course, he has some nice defenses, but you should focus in the atk stats, thus making you use a -def/sdef nature, so the defensive capabilities don't justify Mixrachi >>> Infernape.

So, what makes Mixrachi a good set? The surprise factor, of course(the fact that jirachi has a awesome movepool only adds to the surprise factor). But, hey, let's say that you killed a skarmory with Mixrachi. You should probably have something that benefits from that hole, because there's not really any reason to do a sursprise kill against a wall if you don't have any sweeper capable of using that hole.

And as a plus, Mixrachi is still capable of causing damage even after your opponent knows your set (but yea, you'll lose the surprise KO capability).

This post could sound like a "hey, use mixrachi, he is amazing :D" but it isn't, i'm just using him as a example for a good surprise set.

To sum my post: Surprise sets can work if they have a role that supports your team, like opening holes for a sweeper, but they also should be able to be of use after he isn't a surprise.

 

[M4GNITUDE]

I believe the Element of surprise is based more off the assumption of "Counter the counter".
Let me use an example. Normally, Skarmory is a perfect counter for a Metagross. Let's say now I'm using a special based Metagross. Well, the Skarm won't like the HP Fire, and will soon fall, leaving the opponent, without their wall, but also they know it's a weaker version of something previous.
This brings up a point:

"Suprise" pokes, to me, should be brought it later game to be used for more potential. I run a surprise Uxie set, with Charge Beam. When your (p)Hazer is gone, well, Uxie can boost itself, then rest off the damage.

It's all about what role the Surpirise poke fills(I think the above poster said that). If it is sheerly for surprise, with no intent, it will fail.
It takes a good battler to be able to make a good surprise set, and an even better battler to utilize it correctly.

 

[X-Act]

Old thread that got necro'd.