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The Everything NFL Thread - 2009

I think the Broncos real strength is their defense, which is limiting the productivity of more prolific offenses like New England and San Diego to low numbers. Their offense is nothing impressive, but their O-line is doing a great job of keeping their mediocre quarterback safe and comfortable. And anyone who knows anything about football knows that even an average QB like Orton can do reasonably well if you make them feel secure and give them time to throw the ball where they want. Personally I think they should be running with Moreno ALOT more to make use of how well their O-line is playing. I think if they can get him more touches and yardage, the Broncos will begin to win games more decisively, and will become a much more formidable (and championship worthy) football team.
 
I feel for you LD. I started that game with a 13 point lead, and my opponent had Vincent Jackson as his last player. He ended up about 2 points short, but watching that last 3 minutes of the game was so painful. Back to .500 now thank God

I was up by 25 points going into the game last night. My opponent had Rivers and Gates, so I pretty much chalked it up to a loss.

They combined for 23.5.
 
So DM was watching the game as well with one hand on the phone ready to dial 911. Talk about squeakers!

Also I don't understand how Washington STILL hasn't figured out that their problem is Dan Snyder, not the coaches. Everyone else on the planet has figured it out except Snyder and Cerrato. You'd think an ambitious businessman like Snyder would WANT his organization to succeed (read: make money), and would be willing to do the RIGHT thing to make that happen (ie - hire a good coach and then step back and let HIM make the personnel decisions instead of this "I pick em, you coach em" bullshit mentality).
 
What do the Broncos have to do before people accept that they're a top tier team? The QB is solid if not exceptional at this point (He has the Gunslinger numbers with a Game Manager's mentality), The offensive line is one of the top units in the league (Only the Saints O-line is better), and the Defense is the best in the league. Best Pass rushing team combined with a newly rejuvenated Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins. Scary. Physical? How are they not physical? Cmon guys you're deluding yourselves. I have to admit though - history clearly shows this team is not supposed to be successful. I definitely didn't expect this start but at this point, you just have to recognize that they are a superior team. Sadly for every Denver Bronco there's a Tennessee Titan :/
 
Eh Hero, I think calling Orton's numbers "gunslinger" numbers is a bit of a stretch. He's passed for 1,465 yards in 6 games (244.2 yds/game) for a 100.1 passer rating, 63.9 completion % and 9 TD/1 INT. That ranks him anywhere between 7th and 16th in the league (depending which stat you use to sort) among QBs. His numbers, to me, suggest a more careful quarterback that doesn't throw many interceptions, which is perfectly acceptable. A gunslinger, however, he is not. I think your assessment as a Game Manager is closer to being accurate though.
 
Orton I think is good as his role as the game manager; imagine how much of a "mess" the Broncos might be if they still have Cutler. Now, I think Cutler is great, but he doesn't seem like he would have fit well within the Broncos as they are now; he's too much of a gunslinger. Meanwhile, Orton is more comfortable with simply being the game manager, getting the first downs and such, which is fine as well.
 
Orton is 7th in the league in passing yards. Thats ahead of Aaron Rodgers, Brett Farve, Drew Brees, Tony Romo and Jay Cutler. All those QBs are considered "Gunslingers"

He's tied for 10th with Matt Ryan for TDs thrown with 9. Thats more than Phillip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Carson Palmer, Kurt Warner and Tony Romo.

He's also attempted more pass attempts than Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Brett Farve and Drew Brees. He's tied for 10th in that category as well.

Those look like gunslinger numbers to me. I'm not saying he's not a Game Manager, he is at this point. But he's making all the plays right now.
 
What do the Broncos have to do before people accept that they're a top tier team? The QB is solid if not exceptional at this point (He has the Gunslinger numbers with a Game Manager's mentality), The offensive line is one of the top units in the league (Only the Saints O-line is better), and the Defense is the best in the league. Best Pass rushing team combined with a newly rejuvenated Champ Bailey and Brian Dawkins. Scary. Physical? How are they not physical? Cmon guys you're deluding yourselves. I have to admit though - history clearly shows this team is not supposed to be successful. I definitely didn't expect this start but at this point, you just have to recognize that they are a superior team. Sadly for every Denver Bronco there's a Tennessee Titan :/

Here is the Broncos season thus far:

Game 1: Defeated a mediocre team on an absolute fluke (Kyle Orton, gun-slinging gamechanger, threw a horrible pass into multiman coverage and was saved by a miracle).

Game 2: Defeated an absolutely horrible team.

Game 3: Defeated a team that is probably slightly less horrible though still very bad.

Game 4: Edged a mediocre team at home.

Game 5: Barely defeated a good team that they have always done well against at home (Brady is 1-5 all-time against the Broncos)

Game 6: A solid road win against a division rival for, amongst other reasons, San Diego's absolutely horrible defense.

A solid team? Yes. Will they win the AFC West? Yes. Are they a great team? No. Will gun-slinging gamechanging all-pro Kyle Orton, with decisively mediocre lifetime statistics (his 76.2 lifetime passer rating puts him behind such stars of the game as Jay Fielder and Erik Kramer, and, even artificially inflated by his 2009 numbers thus far, he is average or worse in every advanced passing statistic [Y/A+, Cmp%+, etc.]) fail them when the game is put on his shoulders? Probably. He was horrible in his rookie year, mediocre in his three seasons since then (when he actually played), and six games through the 2009 season is not nearly enough of a sample size to determine that he's become a "game manager" or anything like that.

In short, six games into the 2009 season, the Broncos have not done anything to prove that they belong among the league's elite. Weak opponents and improbable escapes, just for a start, suggest that when the season is over, their record and statistics will have come back down to earth. They are a solid team, with a solid defense and some weapons and a quarterback that really is not very good. But among the best? I really doubt it.
 
You do realize that all of the QBs you've listed have had bye weeks.

All of them except Orton.

I really hate when people use YEARLY stats in the middle of the season when not everybody has had bye weeks. It skews everything so bad.

Stick with per/game stats...your argument looks so awful right now.
 
passing yards is a misleading stat to look at right now since only a few teams have had their bye. most of those qbs you listed (rivers, rodgers, brees, romo) have already had their bye weeks so you cant really compare total passing yards. if you look at yards per game, orton is 11th at 244/game and not even in the same tier as the top 10 (romo is 10th at 268/game). same thing for pass attempts...orton is 16th in attempts per game.

sigh fuk justin
 
Orton is 7th in the league in passing yards. Thats ahead of Aaron Rodgers, Brett Farve, Drew Brees, Tony Romo and Jay Cutler. All those QBs are considered "Gunslingers"

He's tied for 10th with Matt Ryan for TDs thrown with 9. Thats more than Phillip Rivers, Aaron Rodgers, Carson Palmer, Kurt Warner and Tony Romo.

He's also attempted more pass attempts than Eli Manning, Tony Romo, Aaron Rodgers, Jay Cutler, Brett Farve and Drew Brees. He's tied for 10th in that category as well.

Those look like gunslinger numbers to me. I'm not saying he's not a Game Manager, he is at this point. But he's making all the plays right now.
Just remember, three of those qb's had a bye week
 
Guys 244 yards per game still puts Orton on pace to throw for just about 4000 yards. Again, that's gunslinger numbers. Remember I'm not saying he's a gunslinger, I'm just saying he's putting up Gunslinger numbers. 4000 yards and 24 TDs doesn't sound bad to me.
 
Right, it's not BAD, but he's far from a gunslinger. Also, being "on pace" for something doesn't guarantee you'll make it there. I've watched most of Kyle Orton's games, and he does not play like a gunslinger. Gunslingers, in my mind, regularly have 300+ yard games. Orton has thrown for over 300 yards ONCE out of his 6 games this year. His next best game was 263 yards against Cleveland in Week 2, and then 243 yards against Dallas in Week 4. While those numbers are decent, and he is being very consistent right now, I refuse to agree with your labeling him as a gunslinger. It's just not there man, sorry.
 
I refuse to agree with your labeling him as a gunslinger. It's just not there man, sorry.

HeroMasaki said:
Remember I'm not saying he's a gunslinger, I'm just saying he's putting up Gunslinger numbers.

HeroMasaki said:
I'm not saying he's not a Game Manager, he is at this point. But he's making all the plays right now.

HeroMasaki said:
He has the Gunslinger numbers with a Game Manager's mentality
Bro, I'm not calling him a Gunslinger, I'm just talking about the stats. lol
 
Bro, I'm not calling him a Gunslinger, I'm just talking about the stats. lol

First of all, how is "gunslinger" being defined anyway? Is it someone who throws lots of passes? Someone who throws lots of yards? Touchdowns maybe? If player A throws 2400 yards and Player B throws 2100 yards, is Player A more of a gunslinger than Player B? What if, yardage remaining the same, Player A throws 14 touchdowns but Player B throws 17? Who is the better gunslinger then? Is the real gunslinger the quarterback who is more “clutch”, which is intangible and arbitrary?

Gunslinger, a label most commonly applied to Brett Favre to convey the wild, cowboy-like abandon with which he was throwing up the ball for grabs in his later years with Green Bay, is something I would consider a meaningless title; however, it conveys the sense that QBs with said title throw constantly and possibly with power and/or accuracy, so I would somewhat consider it a positive to be described as such. On the other hand, QBs considered “game managers”, like Trent Dilfer was for the 2000 Ravens, generally suck and are counted on only to not fuck up too badly so as not to drag down the other, actual talented players on the team, so that’s by and large a negative distinction. So a QB has to be a “game manager” when he is not good enough to be a “gunslinger” . Basically, rather than arguing if Player A is a “gunslinger” or “game manager”, is Player A a “good” or “bad” quarterback?

But, defining a gunslinger as someone who throws a lot and piles up stats and can be counted on to win the game in the clutch (i.e. a good to great quarterback, as opposed to a game manager, a quarterback of average or poor talent), Orton is absolutely not a gunslinger. His first four years can at best be categorized as mediocre, with decidedly un-gunslinger stats. Even judging him on the first six games of the 2009 season, a sample size too small to make any real judgements, what has he done that’s been all that “gunslingy?” (A shitty pass into blanket coverage that was miraculously knocked over to another Bronco that ran in for the 87-yard game-winning touchdown basically at the gun? Gunslinger! Win over Oakland? Gunslinger!)

And no, I do not consider him a good quarterback, although looking over the stats I've upgraded him from terrible to mediocre-average. Like Dilfer, thus far in 2009 he has been solid and the opposition has been weak enough where he has not cost them the game and the rest of the team has played well enough (and gotten enough breaks) so that they are 6-0. So yes, he is a "game manager", by which I mean he is mediocre-average.

And it’s a bit disingenuous to post stats (poorly chosen, somewhat misleading stats) to imply something, then cop out by saying you didn’t actually “say” it.

So far in the 2009 NHL season, Mikael Samuelsson (5) has more goals than Sidney Crosby (4) or Evgeni Malkin (4). I’m not calling Mikael Samuelsson a Gamer, I’m just talking about the stats.
 
Bro, I'm not calling him a Gunslinger, I'm just talking about the stats. lol

I was talking about the stats, sorry I wasn't clear. His numbers aren't even "Gunslinger" numbers. They are "above average" numbers (read: IN MY OPINION).

I think we've run this argument into the ground. I'll post my picks for this week!

Colts vs Rams - lol?
49ers vs Texans - Gore is back, 49ers coming off bye, Houston sucks in odd weeks
Chargers vs Chefs - Possible shootout, but SD wins
Packers vs Browns - DA is so bad...
Vikings vs Steelers - Hoo boy, very tough pick. I think Brett wears out here.
Patriots vs Buccaneers - As much as I hate the Pats, Bucs are reeling
Bills vs Panthers - For some reason I think the Bills will be spectacular
Jets vs Raiders - Oakland can't repeat last week, and Jets are mad
Falcons vs Cowboys - "upset" pick of the week. Romo has a big day
Bears vs Bengals - Benson has a chip on his shoulder, Cutler throws picks
Saints vs Dolphins - Can't stop them. 16-0?
Cardinals vs Giants - Giants will be angry after getting throttled last week
Eagles vs Redskins - Redskins are the worst team in the NFL right now
 
Colts vs Rams - Rams upset? I think not.
49ers vs Texans - Fuck Crabtree, Gore is back. Plus, if the Cardinals can pull a win over them, Niners should be able to easily.
Chargers vs Chefs - Hopefully that loss to the Broncos will convince the Chargers they need to WIN games early instead of getting hot later in the season.
Packers vs Browns - Browns? lol, wonder who they'll bother starting...
Vikings vs Steelers - *is still fuming over the last second win by Vikings over 49ers
Patriots vs Buccaneers - Fuck Patriots, but Bucs just suck too much
Bills vs Panthers - Both teams suck compared to last year, so who cares?
Jets vs Raiders - Hopefully Rex Ryan kicked some asses around to get his team back into shape.
Falcons vs Cowboys - Fuck Cowboys, and Falcons are the better team anyways
Bears vs Bengals - Both teams are doing much better than expected, but I think Bears will pull ahead.
Saints vs Dolphins - No way they're about to let up here, go Brees!
Cardinals vs Giants - Cardinals already lost to the elder Manning, so now it's time for them to lose to the younger one.
Eagles vs Redskins - Eagles have to be fuming about losing to the Raiders of all teams
 
Colts vs Rams - It's pretty difficult to pick the Rams to win a game right now, especially against the Colts.
49ers vs Texans - Should be a close game, but I think San Fransisco is a little more consistent than Houston.
Chargers vs Chefs - See Colts vs Rams, but at least KC has a win this season.
Packers vs Browns - ...But not until Joshua Cribbs scores a few touchdowns to carry me to victory in the smogon fantasy league.
Vikings vs Steelers - Should be a good game (can't pick a winner because to do so would curse the Vikings)
Patriots vs Buccaneers - I have 4 patriots on an 8-man fantasy roster in one of my leagues >_> (Brady, Maroney, Welker, Defense)
Bills vs Panthers - DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart against the worst run defense in the league? Yes please.
Jets vs Raiders - This certainly could go the other way when you consider how much the Jets have fallen apart, but I like them here over the lowly Raiders.
Falcons vs Cowboys - Very tough game to call, and you have to doubt Romo in a game against a team with any semblance of a defense, but I think the Cowboys' running trio will save him from this one.
Bears vs Bengals - I think Cincinnatti is a pretty solid team, although Chicago is as well. Forte's incredible lack of production (damn you for making me pick you in 2 leagues) will cost the Bears here.
Saints vs Dolphins - Hard to pick against the Saints after last week, though I do
hope
think that Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown will have solid games.
Cardinals vs Giants - Arizona has always been inconsistent in the regular season, and I think the Giants will bounce back nicely.
Eagles vs Redskins - The Eagles will feast on Jason Campbell and win this one fairly easily.
 
Colts vs Rams - Peyton Manning will have this offense firing on all cylinders. Marc Bulger may get hurt again - Indy has a good pass rush.

Niners vs Texans - Matt Schuab (sp?) has hit his stride. Shaun Hill has not. The 49ners do not have to offense to win this game and the defense is not who we thought they were.

Packers vs Browns - You know, Packers have one of the worst backup QB situations in the league and the worst O-Line. This is a recipe for disaster. A disaster that will start next week when Brett Farve kicks their ass in Lambeau.

Vikings vs Steelers - AP will run all over the Steeler's D. Mendenhall will do even more damage to the Vikings D. That Vikings defense is reeling right now and Big Ben and Co. will give the K.O. punch

Patriots vs Bucs - And how!

Bills vs Panthers - I like DeAngelo and Co. against that Bills Run D but seeing how QBs struggle against this Defense.... well lets just say I've lost all faith in Jake at this point. Running game and Defense pull out a close win for the Panthers. Don't be surprised if Jake gets benched in this game.

Jets vs Raiders - All of the sudden, Jets fans think Mark Sanchez is a bust. Fuck you New York fans, you have no heart. Bounce back game for Sanchez, Thomas Jones will go off in this game.

Falcons vs Cowboys - Upset? I agree. Jerry Jones will be very upset that he promised Wade Phillips his job for the year.

Bears vs Bengals - Cedric is going to gash this defense soooooo baaaad. Still, it will be a close game. Instead of Carson's clutch play winning the game for the Bengals, it will be Jay Cutler's lack thereof.

Saints vs Dolphins - Saints are on pace to score more points than the 07 Pats. And they're doing it both on the ground and through the air. Drew Brees will continue his onslaught on the record books. Dolphins Offense will do well in this game though.

Cardinals vs Giants - NEWSFLASH: Giants aren't that good. No seriously, who have they beaten? It will be a shootout but Kurt Warner will pull out the win.

Eagles vs Redskins - History shows that Andy Reid's teams usually lose to teams like the Raiders at least once every season. It also shows that they usually destroy the opponent the week after.
 
Colts vs Rams - no real flaw with colts, they win 28-7 i guess.
49ers vs Texans - Texans are going to pick up steam right now, they are a lot better than they have played so far. 49ers might win the division but this is a game where I don't think they can keep up with the explosive Texans offense. 31-17
Chargers vs Chiefs - Chargers have too much firepower. 38-14
Packers vs Browns - upset pick, packers are underperforming, browns have improved since the Ravens game, just have a feeling. 14-10
Vikings vs Steelers - Steelers will probably make the playoffs but A.D will probably run through them. 27-24 OT
Patriots vs Buccaneers - 59-0...yeah... 42-6
Bills vs Panthers - got a good feeling about the bills this week (they should have beat browns and pats, both of those losses were pathetic) 17-7
Jets vs Raiders - i like upsets, jets have kind of fallen off, cable and the team are hopefully more focused, and I think sanchez rookieness will show. 13-10
Falcons vs Cowboys - falcons are really good 24-10, dware hurt???
Bears vs Bengals - bengals just seem overrated. 17-14
Saints vs Dolphins - should be fun, 35-31
Cardinals vs Giants - giants smash 28-7
Eagles vs Redskins - redskins are pretty bad, eagles are furious, 17-6

go upsets =]
 
I like how my intentional spelling error on "Chiefs" didn't get corrected until KD's post. Copy-Paste for the win!
 
Colts vs Rams - Any objections?
49ers vs Texans - Ehhh I think the Texans win this with the best WR in the league.
Chargers vs Chiefs - Chargers are mad and on a mission.
Packers vs Browns - Same ole' browns
Vikings vs Steelers - Just a throwup cuz I like the Vikings. Chester Taylor has a big day?
Patriots vs Buccaneers - Tom Brady is still just loosening up his arm.
Bills vs Panthers - Bills are the better team to be honest.
Jets vs Raiders - Mark Sanchez is the most overrated rookie shit I've ever seen. Raiders play some basic football, they win easily.
Falcons vs Cowboys - Tough but being a Falcons fan, I pick them.
Bears vs Bengals - Bengals are pretty rough.
Saints vs Dolphins - UPSET. The rushing attack will overwhelm the saints?
Cardinals vs Giants - U MAD?
Eagles vs Redskins - U STILL MAD?
 
Why are the Dolphins such a darling upset pick this week? They are a mediocre team without their starting quarterback possessing a whole one trick against the hottest team in football. You know, the Saints have Drew Brees, an arsenal of weapons, and are scoring 38.4 points a game, but the Dolphins have the WILDCAT, Wonder-Scheme of MYSTERY~!
 
Why are the Dolphins such a darling upset pick this week? They are a mediocre team without their starting quarterback possessing a whole one trick against the hottest team in football. You know, the Saints have Drew Brees, an arsenal of weapons, and are scoring 38.4 points a game, but the Dolphins have the WILDCAT, Wonder-Scheme of MYSTERY~!

Need I remind you that they faced the Colts, a similar team to the Saints in that they have an elite QB and an arsenal receivers, and damn near won the game. Yes, they let the Colts beat them despite controlling the ball for 45 minutes, but it's foolish to think that they haven't learned from this and prepared for it. Also, this new guy Chad Henne has shown a much stronger arm than Pennington, and has been given leeway to take more shots downfield, which can be a serious threat. Finally they are playing at home, which helps a little. I personally think the Saints will still win, but I figured I'd show you why people are picking them for an upset. The Wildcat is not a secret, and it is not a gimmick. They are not trying to disguise what they are doing, and they are going to continue doing it until someone stops them.
 
lol at calling the Colts similar to the Saints.

Colts have an excellent pass game and pass defense. Horrible run game and run defense, so of course they will struggle with TOP

Saints have the Pass Game, the Run Game, they force turnovers and they can stop the run. There's a big difference there.
 
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