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The Everything NFL Thread - 2013-2014 Edition

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Brees greatest of all time? hahahahahafuck off he isn't even top 5 RIGHT NOW. Romo, Brady, Peyton, Rodgers and Rivers are all better. I seriously don't know why so much emphasis is put on all his yards.

Brees is just a good qb who passes a lot but has never been the best qb any given year during his career. I'm still laughing on the floor at Peyton haters who thought Drews' mediocre ass was even in the same sport.
 
Nobody in the world has ever taken a look at Karl Malone's statistics and come away thinking "that's the best player ever!!". For instance he would be a blatant tie with David Robinson & Bill Walton, lose to MJ & Duncan when you consider defensive statistics, and pale in comparison to Wilt, Kareem, and Shaq. You would have to ignore statistics to argue in favor of Malone, not vice versa like you sustained to "refute" statistics.
 
I like making fun of Elway more because he was 0-3 in Super Bowls before finally winning 2 back to back, he was shaping up to be like Dan Marino, a HoFer who never could win the big one. But he did of course, and he's still one if the best to play.

As for comparisons to Brees, he definitely isn't the best of all time. But both he and Elway would make a top 10 list easily.
 
kd24 said:
some problems with your theory include montana breaking 20 tds only 6 times in his career, brees has done it 10 times (brees has thrown for more than 30 tds 6 times actually compared to montana's 1) as well as montana never eclipsing 4000 yards passing in a season once! brees has not only done it 7 times, but now has thrown for 5000 yards 4 seasons
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Pass attempts is important to keep track of when talking raw passing numbers. Montana had a career TD% (TDs/Attempts) of 5.1%, including 5.3% with San Francisco. Brees has a career TD% of 5.3% (5.7% with just New Orleans), which is somewhat higher but not significantly. They also have a similar career yards/attempt (7.5 vs 7.5, 7.6 vs 7.8 with SFO/NO respectively). If Montana had thrown 600 times a season at the rate he did with the 49ers, he'd have posted years with 32 TDs and 4500 yards on average. If he threw as many times as Brees has recently (660 average passes the last 4 years) he'd have thrown for 35 TDs and 5000 yards on average! Brees probably has the most impressive raw stats of all time, but a lot of it has to do with volume more than anything. Comparing stats that are not as dependent on volume, such as yards/attempt, TD/Int rate, etc. are more important than just comparing the raw stats.

I don't think players throughout eras are really directly comparable, using stats or otherwise. Comparing to quarterbacks of the time is more appropriate, and Brees is not even the best quarterback of this era. Rodgers has better statistics over a shorter span, Brady has the postseason success, and Manning has both more postseason success and similar statistics over a longer period of time. I don't know anyone from this thread or otherwise that says Brees is the GOAT.
 
some problems with your theory include montana breaking 20 tds only 6 times in his career, brees has done it 10 times (brees has thrown for more than 30 tds 6 times actually compared to montana's 1) as well as montana never eclipsing 4000 yards passing in a season once! brees has not only done it 7 times, but now has thrown for 5000 yards 4 seasons
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i think maybe you're remembering montana's stats as godlike but imo only eclipsing 30 tds once (with jerry rice catching 22 of them that season) isn't anywhere near as impressive as the numbers qb put out today. one of the things that set montana apart is 4 super bowl rings and how consistently good he is so he's kind of a different beast here anyway BUT in his era, his numbers were solid.
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The first part is all true, but I'm not misremembering Montana's stats, but viewing them through the context that he threw it thousands of times less than Drew Brees does. The YPA, Completion Percentage, TDs per Attempt, Ints per Attempt and TD:Int Ratio are virtually the same for the two players (Brees and Montana for reference). So yeah, Montana was very very consistently efficient, to a degree that is highly comparable to the players of today despite not having the gaudier aggregates due to not throwing in nearly the same volume as they do today.

now, if you want to say nfl has simply gotten more illegitimate as we've moved on through the years that's fine, however there is obviously an issue if i point to a random year like 2007 and mention that montana's career high in passing yards would have ranked 9th that season - his career high in tds (31) would only have been good for 6th that same season. my question to you is this - is montana really overrated if he was playing comparable defenses for what offenses play today and only putting in "top 5 stats"? by your own logic, he's playing with hofers and an offensive minded coach and only putting up these stats under similar rules vs defenses comparable to today
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The thing here is that I don't think Montana is significantly overrated, I think that Defenses today are particularly underrated, or that Defenses back then are particularly overrated (or both simultaneously). There's a perception that Defenses are so much worse off because of minor rules enforcements (like the Ty Law rule) or rule changes made in the name of player safety but in the actual grand scheme of things it's not these rules entirely by themselves that are making QBs throw for 5000 yards. The QBs are throwing for 5000 yards because A) they're just flat throwing it a ton more, B) the efficiency and effectiveness of Offenses has simply evolved and become more widespread and C) Players have gotten more athletic allowing for more impressive plays/performances (Calvin Johnson anyone?).

I compare the way the numbers have been getting higher in the NFL to the way the numbers in Men's 100m Sprints have progressively gotten faster over time. That sport is about as pure as you can get, and still all three medalists in the Beijing Olympics effectively would have broken the world record of 20 years previous. Over time, athletes in a sport become stronger, faster, and better, and so too do the schemes of these sports improve becoming more sleek and efficient.

maybe im just not understanding your argument but ill put a disclaimer that elway vs brees isn't as far apart as you may think i'm saying, i have both in the top 10, but elway is a tier higher
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THAT'S probably true. The way you said it made me think that you were saying Brees had no business being in the same conversation as Elway, which seemed a lil extreme.


EDIT: FUCKING NINJA'D BY KILLAH.
 
Killah said:
I don't know anyone from this thread or otherwise that says Brees is the GOAT.
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It was just kd24 picking a big fight with me, I am the only one who says it. I really did not want to argue because he is just picking the weirdest fight of all time, there is no way to remotely sustain Elway is better, and there are much better choices if you want to argue for a different best.

I maintain Brees as runaway best because these guys all have fantastic, legendary, immaculate regular season results, so I care about the greatest postseason QB of all time to sort them out. Anyone who does not know that Brees, Montana, Rodgers, and Brady are the only candidates for that title are pathetically bad at remembering their football history. Favre, Steve Young, P. Manning are something like a definitive next best list when it comes to postseason success. Marino+Bradshaw>Elway>Aikman>Staubach are the rest of the crowd. Anyone who wants to crown someone's ass for "most Super Bowls" or "most regular season success" while those QBs threw a million INTs can feel free to keep dreaming while ignoring fucking reality.

On paper, when you look at completion %, Y/A, and TD/INT, Montana>Brees>Rodgers>Brady (by far the worst Y/A out of any QB but Staubach, but his TD/INT destroys everybody in history not named Montana)>>>>Favre>P. Manning>Young>Marino>Elway>Aikman. The only tricky inclusion out of all of these guys is Terry Bradshaw, and where you want to place him comes completely down to personal preference...his Y/A destroys everybody in fucking history and he won 4 Super Bowls, but he also "only" did as well as 30 TD/26 INT. Comes down to era values, what statistics you think reflect what, etc etc, but he destroyed everyone else's best Y/A by at least .55 Y/A, and he destroyed Brady by like 1.4 Y/A rofl. Personally my final list would look something like Brees>Rodgers>Montana>Brady>Bradshaw if you want to fixate on "quality over quantity", but with a "quantity over quality" mindset I think it flips around to Montana>Bradshaw>Brady>Brees>Rodgers. Either way, while trying to look at every one of the "big players" who had "historic" regular season & postseason success, these are the only guys you could possibly come away with if you look at Y/A & TD/INT (completion % you have to adjust for by era, and then you should consider that after that point), and here is hoping P. Manning does something good enough to race past Favre this postseason instead of yet another choke or mediocre game.

I am not going to break down the Y/A Completion % or double check what I am about to say next because I am not here to fucking hold any god damn hands and make friends, it really frustrates me when people are not willing to do simple research into something they claim to care a lot about!! And some people (trolls imo) are just going to cling to regular season bests or most Super Bowls anyway.

Montana 45/21, Brady 42/21, Brees 23/6, Rodgers 18/5 (playing right this second), Favre 44/30, P. Manning 32/21, Young 20/13, Marino 32/24 (started 27/14 ;_;), Elway 27/21, Bradshaw 30/26, Aikman 23/17, Staubach 24/19. That covers basically all the guys who made multiple Super Bowls or have historically great TD/INT top of my head. And the reason on paper does work, people can troll all they want about Flacco and his precious fucking 11/0 run (19/8 overall), but his 55.5% completion% (inexcusable now) and shitty (compared to everyone except Brady 8===D) 7.16 Y/A still easily tell you everyone else is better!!

Also, I definitely might be "embarrassingly" missing some guy who should be in this discussion, whenever I first started thinking about all this a long time ago I was just looking at "all time great qbs" I could remember being worth my time to research, esp. since I knew offhand guys like Boomer Esiason were not worth a second thought, and a lot of older guys like Johnny Unitas had terrible statistical outcomes.
 
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just so all you ignorant fucks have it straight, the GOAT as far as NFL comebacks are concerned belongs to the Buffalo Bills, overcoming a 35-3 deficits to defeat the Houston Oilers 41-38 in OT

and oh, Jim Kelly was injured that game and we got 4 passing touchdowns from FRANK MOTHERFUCKING REICH BITCHES

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THE REICH STUFF
 
Green Bay's defense lets the team down. Again. Seriously, during Kaepernick's 11-yard run near the end, did anyone else notice that fuckwit #55 on the Packers and his half-assed effort trying to defend Kaep?

Near interception, near block on the FG, near miss on the FG, all on the final drive. GG Packers lol

At least the Chargers won.
 
I think the FG kick went through that Packers guy's arms. He was pretty clearly in front of the kick but his arms were all like \o_/ instead of |o| and the football whooshed between them.

AND OH LOOK THE CHARGERS WON I CANNOT BELIEVE IT

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CaptKirby said:
I maintain Brees as runaway best because these guys all have fantastic, legendary, immaculate regular season results, so I care about the greatest postseason QB of all time to sort them out. Anyone who does not know that Brees, Montana, Rodgers, and Brady are the only candidates for that title are pathetically bad at remembering their football history. Favre, Steve Young, P. Manning are something like a definitive next best list when it comes to postseason success.
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And I will maintain postseason success alone is not what matters most. The sample size is just too small, less than two season's worth of games for even the biggest repeat offenders (so to speak). Record is a team statistic anyway and regular season performance is still pretty relevant because you gotta do it to make the playoffs at all. It's a nice tiebreaker if you're looking at, say, Montana vs. P. Manning. Brady's regular season statistics are too pedestrian for me to put him on the same level, he's a second-tier guy to me. Very Aikman-esque. Not complaining if he's on my team, still a bona-fide hall-of-famer, but not quite best-of-the-best-of-the-best. damn that's a lot of hyphens

I still give Manning a lot of extra credit for basically being his own OC/HC too. I hope to enjoy seeing him coach someday as much as I enjoy seeing him play.
 
gsninja said:
Green Bay's defense lets the team down. Again. Seriously, during Kaepernick's 11-yard run near the end, did anyone else notice that fuckwit #55 on the Packers and his half-assed effort trying to defend Kaep?
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Looked like he pulled his hamstring toward the end of the play, which would explain him appearing to let up. I saw him limping right after so I figured he hurt himself. I would find it hard to believe he gave less than his best effort in the closing minute of a home Wild Card playoff game with the result in doubt unless he was injured.
 
Can we all take a moment to appreciate how unobtrusive the officiating was for the SF/Green Bay game? It was a close, scrappy game, and sure the receivers on both teams wanted flags a couple times but the refs just let the game happen.

I guess it's not really a big deal, I just wanted to point it out in a season riddled with very questionable PT calls (a couple for the Patriots and Ravens stick out for me).
 
DM said:
How is that a good thing? That only serves to highlight even further the glaring inconsistencies in the dogshit NFL rulebook.
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I think if refs are going to be inconsistent, they should at least stay consistent between two teams in the current game between them. The Saints/Eagles PI call(s) didn't have any bearing on this one specific Packers/49ers matchup and the officiating was pretty much fair throughout, erring on the more favorable (imo) side of no-calls instead of questionable calls.
Yes, there are inconsistencies and terrible officiating throughout the NFL season. It really sucks, especially in games decided by a very questionable PI call, Patriots win over the Browns for example. Hopefully they'll do something about it during the offseason, but there's nothing we can do other than enjoy the few games where refs aren't much of a factor, which is all I was trying to do in the first place!
 
I hate that the same way I hate the idea of refs "swallowing their whistles" and "letting the players play" in the NHL playoffs. If it's a fucking penalty in the regular season, it's a fucking penalty in the playoffs.
 
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