nevermind, even with 252/184+ and haze, she still gets beat by Char-X at +1. Since a +1 Flare Blitz, then two +0 Flare Blitz's still kill it.
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Other The OU Theorymon Project (CLOSED)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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Can't she just Roost off those +0 Flare Blitzes while Char-X recoils itself to death?
That's true, but then Altaria can't switch in freely. It would have to sack a Pokemon, or predict a dragon claw correctly to come in without any damage. That makes it a check not a counter. I honestly would prefer an intimidate Landorus-t, since it does basically the same thing and offers more utility in general. Still it would have a small niche in countering char-Y and checking char-x which a lot of Pokemon can't do.
To end this:
- +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 162-191 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Altaria uses Haze as Mega Charizard uses +1 Flare Blitz. Then Altaria Roosts off the damage. If Mega Char X used DD again, rinse and repeat, otherwise you just forced it out. Eventually Mega Char X will die to recoil or get hit by Toxic as it uses Roost.
So, Altaria is a full stop to both Mega Char Y and X.
Even if you want to use Natural Cure instead of Cloud Nine, you can use a 252 HP / 184 Def+ / 72 SpD spread and still wall any Mega Char X with Haze or Cotton Guard, as well as Timid Mega Char Y, both with SR up.
- +1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria: 162-191 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
- 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Altaria: 110-129 (31 - 36.4%) -- 65.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Altaria uses Haze as Mega Charizard uses +1 Flare Blitz. Then Altaria Roosts off the damage. If Mega Char X used DD again, rinse and repeat, otherwise you just forced it out. Eventually Mega Char X will die to recoil or get hit by Toxic as it uses Roost.
So, Altaria is a full stop to both Mega Char Y and X.
Even if you want to use Natural Cure instead of Cloud Nine, you can use a 252 HP / 184 Def+ / 72 SpD spread and still wall any Mega Char X with Haze or Cotton Guard, as well as Timid Mega Char Y, both with SR up.
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Protean Porygon2..it would be good to see protean used defensively, and one of the main problems of porygon2 is normal typing offers no resistances and with protean porygon2 can hit much harder and score some resistances which can only make it tankier . so here hoping this gets picked. also just wondering is there any chance there might be another chance for the 2nd placed theorymon for the end of month, for example. Leviate Metagross came 2nd, and before that Psychic/fairy Cresselia, so basically the last theorymon of the month. Is one that wasn't successful the first time in its initial shortlist. hopefully that makes sense, sorry if that's a bad idea. and Yay 100th post!
Don't worry, any good theorymon that didn't get picked will be slated in the future again, such as Harvest Florges, Levitate Metagross, and Psychic / Fairy Cresselia.
protean porygon 2? tbh, I see that as opening itself up defensively, meaning that as it switches types its more liable to get KO'd. Consider it's most common move set,
something like, Recover/Toxic/Shadow Ball/Tri-Attack. I KNOW THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SET, but it's oen of the most common I've encountered.
Do you really want to switch to a ghost type with uninvested base 60 speed when dark types and aegislash are... everywhere? I think porygon2 is fine the way it is now.
Rattled Emboar makes no sense to me in terms of flavor, because the pokemon that get it seem to suggest they are afraid of the dark and bugs, like children. Emboar is no such thing.
Therefore my vote goes to Gale Wings Articuno. Articuno has good defenses in 90/100/125 meaning it's hard to take down, even with super effective attacks (I had a offensive Articuno in NU and I survived a charizard's flamethrower and not even at full HP)
This means it fits in well with the bulky offensive trend that has settled as the superior play style this gen.
It's typing leaves a lot to be desired, but that is every ice type's curse. However, with defog everywhere (I think even articuno gets it, so you can play it defensively with gale wings hurricane) you can bring articuno in more easily.
Plus, playing specially is good as the meta is very physical right now. 95 special attack stat screams specs, so I can't help but include some calcs as a wall breaker...
I really think that Gale Wings articuno, a bulky special attacker with priority SPECIAL ATTACKS (something I believe, doesn't exist) would be the true meta game changer.
EDIT: I forgot that Dragon/Fairy Altaria was also up for grabs, and while I really like it, as it would be a great char check, I still don't think it's worth voting for over Articuno, who would have, admittedly a less focused, but more of an overall impact on the meta game.
something like, Recover/Toxic/Shadow Ball/Tri-Attack. I KNOW THIS IS NOT THE ONLY SET, but it's oen of the most common I've encountered.
Do you really want to switch to a ghost type with uninvested base 60 speed when dark types and aegislash are... everywhere? I think porygon2 is fine the way it is now.
Rattled Emboar makes no sense to me in terms of flavor, because the pokemon that get it seem to suggest they are afraid of the dark and bugs, like children. Emboar is no such thing.
Therefore my vote goes to Gale Wings Articuno. Articuno has good defenses in 90/100/125 meaning it's hard to take down, even with super effective attacks (I had a offensive Articuno in NU and I survived a charizard's flamethrower and not even at full HP)
This means it fits in well with the bulky offensive trend that has settled as the superior play style this gen.
It's typing leaves a lot to be desired, but that is every ice type's curse. However, with defog everywhere (I think even articuno gets it, so you can play it defensively with gale wings hurricane) you can bring articuno in more easily.
Plus, playing specially is good as the meta is very physical right now. 95 special attack stat screams specs, so I can't help but include some calcs as a wall breaker...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 408-480 (112 - 131.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Let's be real though, it is just as likely venusaur is playing sp. def...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 262-309 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Let's be real though, it is just as likely venusaur is playing sp. def...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 302-356 (82.9 - 97.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory: 262-309 (78.4 - 92.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Genesect, that bastard (although it seems he might be getting the boot, but none the less)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 249-294 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't even matter if it's scarfed cuz priority, gotta love them wings.
It can even handle scary megas...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 522-614 (191.9 - 225.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The best that pinsir could manage before that,
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 213-252 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even the charizards need to be wary
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 273-322 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 211-250 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Conk can't sponge either
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 326-386 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 249-294 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
It doesn't even matter if it's scarfed cuz priority, gotta love them wings.
It can even handle scary megas...
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 522-614 (191.9 - 225.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
The best that pinsir could manage before that,
+2 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 213-252 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even the charizards need to be wary
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 273-322 (91.6 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 211-250 (70.8 - 83.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Conk can't sponge either
252+ SpA Choice Specs Articuno Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 326-386 (78.7 - 93.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I really think that Gale Wings articuno, a bulky special attacker with priority SPECIAL ATTACKS (something I believe, doesn't exist) would be the true meta game changer.
EDIT: I forgot that Dragon/Fairy Altaria was also up for grabs, and while I really like it, as it would be a great char check, I still don't think it's worth voting for over Articuno, who would have, admittedly a less focused, but more of an overall impact on the meta game.
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Hmm, you're right. As english is not my native language, i understood rattled a bit more like jostled or hustled. However, I believe some tall and strong guys can have a dark or bug phobia, so that could still have a meaning somewhere.
Eh, Pigs are and aren't. I raise em in my spare time, but they are more........whats the word, are more annoyed/freaked out by odder things. Like they wont get scared of big butcher knife or a whip, but they start squealing their heads off when someone walks by with a bucket of feed. They can be rattled easily though by physical punishment (ie, I have one pig who is rattled every time she is touched due to being scared after being attacked by another pig), but that's as close as I usually see. They are more stubborn than anything.
It could fit with Granbull due to acting like a dog who has been mistreated, but that's all I got to help explain it.
UnicornDemon
Banned deucer.
Protean Porygon2
Articuno- Even though I like Articuno, I have to say I despise Talonflame. This Pokemon has really been nothing more than a get-out-of-jail free card that let’s bad players KO would-be threatening set-up sweepers like X-Zard or Volcarona regardless of how many boosts they let them get. Not to mention Hurricane’s shaky accuracy can determine the outcome of matches. No thank you.
Altaria- It kind of says something when slapping fairy typing unto any Pokemon automatically makes it better. Its movepool is quite interesting, too. Protean Porygon2 is hard to pass up, though.
Emboar- It would be incredibly nice to counter U-turn/Knock Off spam, but he wouldn’t be able to do much against opponents’ who use neither- or those who put both on Landorus-T. It’s a great idea if there’s ever UU/RU theorymons.
Articuno- Even though I like Articuno, I have to say I despise Talonflame. This Pokemon has really been nothing more than a get-out-of-jail free card that let’s bad players KO would-be threatening set-up sweepers like X-Zard or Volcarona regardless of how many boosts they let them get. Not to mention Hurricane’s shaky accuracy can determine the outcome of matches. No thank you.
Altaria- It kind of says something when slapping fairy typing unto any Pokemon automatically makes it better. Its movepool is quite interesting, too. Protean Porygon2 is hard to pass up, though.
Emboar- It would be incredibly nice to counter U-turn/Knock Off spam, but he wouldn’t be able to do much against opponents’ who use neither- or those who put both on Landorus-T. It’s a great idea if there’s ever UU/RU theorymons.
Vacuum wave is a special attack with priority, given it's the only one and it's quite rare but it's there. (btw first time using the quote thing so if it doesn't turn out right sorry.)
EDIT: that was in reply to LoDart210
I love articuno but gale wings isn't the way I wanted articuno to get into ou, it's still walled by the same checks and counters as talonflame, Rotom-w, Rotom-h, Tyranitar, Heatran, most rock types, and now a huge portion of steel types, and has the same weakness to stealth rocks. Honestly we might as well give talonflame hurricane. I understand the different typing/different coverage/better bulk, but the typing is worst than fire/flying (defensively and offensively), the coverage is not only worse it much harder to use than talonflames as articuno lacks that base 126 speed. (hp isn't doing much, it only 2hkos the pokemon you want to kill, assuming specs, heatran with hp ground and ttar with hp fighting, also locking your self into a hidden power sucks.) and the bulk isn't as great when you take 50% from stealth rocks. Also hurricane lacks accuracy which will waste turns this thing can't really afford to lose. (Something I found amusing, empoloen walls this to hell and back)
Porygon2 with protean is an awesome idea, I just don't think it will be as useful as it's other abilities, trace being an amazing ability, unreliable but absolutely outstanding when it's useful.
Altaria with fairy/dragon typing - fairy/dragon is an extremely interesting typing I would like to see.
Emboar with rattled isn't a big change, and most of the time won't be all that useful, also we already have a powerful, fast and more importantly reliable fire/fighting in infernape.
I am genuinely curious about how well Defensive Articuno sets would fair if this is chosen. 90/100/125 Defenses are nothing to scoff at, even if his only resistances are to Bug-, Grass-, and Ground-type moves. Priority Roost will help mitigate his vulnerability to hazards too, making him less reliant on Defog support to function as an effective defender.
I don't know how I feel about offensive sets, however. Hurricane / Freeze Dry / Hidden Power [Ground] / U-turn gives Articuno everything he needs to muscle past Rotom-W and Heatran, non-Hurricane moves aren't ones you want to be locked into. Aegislash is also a full stop to the set even with proper prediction, since Hidden Power [Ground] won't 3HKO if he's running King's Shield + Leftovers, meanwhile Articuno is 3HKO'd by Shadow Ball, and 2HKO'd if he's running a boosting item. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing, though.
If anything, the biggest turnoff is the fact that Choice Specs Articuno requires Defog/Rapid Spin and Damp Rock Politoed in order to function. Why run so much support for a single Pokemon, when I can run Choice Band Talonflame + Choice Band Staraptor + Defog/Healing Wish Latias, and accomplish the same thing, but with more offensive presence and wall breaking capabilities?
Despite the power drop, Articuno would probably prefer something like:
Articuno @ Expert Belt / Sharp Beak
244 HP / 252 SpA / 12 Spe
Modest
- Hurricane
- Freeze-Dry
- Hidden Power [Ground] / U-turn
- Roost
This set muscles through most Rotom-W, Aegislash, Heatran, and Mega Vanusaur without fail, and is less dependent on Defog support to function thanks to Roost.
Even though it's not every day we get a Pokemon capable of breaking through the best F/W/G core OU has to offer, I think I am going to vote for Fairy/Dragon Altaria. Yeah, it's mine, so I'm really biased, but I would like to see less wall breakers and more checks/counters to the many dangerous threats we have running around. In addition to checking/countering Charizard X and Charizard Y, Altaria also handles Dragonite, (most) Keldeo, Volcarona, Lati@s, and makes an excellent pivot because she resists Volt Switch and U-Turn.
If we're not allowed to vote for out own, though, lemme know and I'll change it.
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This read like an O. Henry short story for me. I was like "Yeah, yeah! See, Articuno is awesome!" and then "Oh yeah, good point, specs is not the best it could do..."
and then "Great set! Finally! Another vote for Articuno!"
Then I saw the bolded bit and I was like...
Still though, your reasoning is correct. The meta has a lot of bulky wallbreakers, but not enough defensive mons that can check high level threats, particularly Mega Charizard X and Y (I would say genesect, but that poke seems to be leaving OU soon). It was my second pick, and it was so tight between it and articuno that it eventually came down to which I like more, and Articuno looks way more awesome (Yes I know that's shallow reasoning, but both would be interesting)
Argh this is a tough choice for me. I'm gonna have to go with Dragon/Fairy Altaria. I like the support options it gets, and the typing is super cool. My second choice would've been Protean Porygon2.
I don't see the defensive applications of porygon2. I think it works best as a normal type, especially seeing as fighting types are no longer prominent, and with mega lucario getting the boot soon enough, the only fighting type you'd see is AV conk.
I don't mean this response as an argument against your vote personally, but I keep seeing that thought behind the reasoning of many other votes, and I just fail to see why it'd have an effect on the meta game at all.
Oh man, I am definitely torn on this one. Porygon2 with protean would be amazing, but I'd prefer a reliable check to Charizard
Dragon/Fairy Altaria
Dragon/Fairy Altaria
Altaria - This really wasn't that exciting, until I realized how well it would fit. A cloud dragon is definitely a fairy-like thing, and it has really great typing and special defense to stop lots of... er... bad things.
Articuno - Gale wings articuno isn't going to be that dangerous. Sure, the power and speed is nice, but if there's rocks up, you won't be coming in. Personally, I think magic guard would benefit this thing far more.
Porygon2 - Protean was only good because the two main users (Kecleon and Greninja) were very good abusers of it. Kecleon can get priority immunity to normal, fighting, and psychic (not to mention that it has great special defense) while Greninja had amazing speed to predict things. Unfortunately, Porygon2's lack of priority and abysmal speed won't be doing it any favors; protean actually might be a hindrance rather than a help.
Emboar - Pretty good, but the ability doesn't match the pokemon. I mean, in the pokemon games, I used heat crash on those tiny little venipedes and squished any hope of survival out of them. I just don't see how roast pork is afraid of bugs. Or the dark. Since it has fire all around it. So there really wouldn't be any darkness for it to be afraid of. Just saying.
Articuno - Gale wings articuno isn't going to be that dangerous. Sure, the power and speed is nice, but if there's rocks up, you won't be coming in. Personally, I think magic guard would benefit this thing far more.
Porygon2 - Protean was only good because the two main users (Kecleon and Greninja) were very good abusers of it. Kecleon can get priority immunity to normal, fighting, and psychic (not to mention that it has great special defense) while Greninja had amazing speed to predict things. Unfortunately, Porygon2's lack of priority and abysmal speed won't be doing it any favors; protean actually might be a hindrance rather than a help.
Emboar - Pretty good, but the ability doesn't match the pokemon. I mean, in the pokemon games, I used heat crash on those tiny little venipedes and squished any hope of survival out of them. I just don't see how roast pork is afraid of bugs. Or the dark. Since it has fire all around it. So there really wouldn't be any darkness for it to be afraid of. Just saying.
Jaiho
bandy legged troll
I mean, Talonflame is quad weak to rocks too, yet it is doing fine in OU. Articuno is also bulkier, and has better coverage thanks to freeze dry and hidden power. It also doesn't depend on recoil moves so much, so it has better survivability. My vote is Gale Wings Articuno
My main concern about Protean Porygon2 is that its recovery move, which it uses frequently due to lack of Leftovers, just puts it back right where it started as a Normal-type. It can also just run Analytic already if it wanted the same power boost on moves that Protean would give it, without giving it the crippling weaknesses of becoming an Ice-type. I'd even dare to say that Normal-type is better defensively in this metagame than Electric-type or Poison-type (from Thunderbolt and Toxic respectively) due to the ridiculous amount of Ghost- and Ground-type attacks being thrown around.
I feel like Trace has more merits defensively and Analytic has more merits offensively than Protean.
The only set I can think of that could take advantage of Protean is as follows:
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
It really requires Thunder Wave in order to take advantage of Protean effectively, as moving first allows you to predict the type of the incoming move and change into that type prior. Recover is pretty clear in use. Shadow Ball is used for the awesome neutral coverage it provides (especially with STAB) and it allows Porygon2 to dodge Fighting-type attacks that may come its way (be weary of a surprise Knock Off, though). Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are used for their great coverage on top of Shadow Ball, but both have few defensive applications unfortunately. Thunderbolt also lets you handle Talonflame a lot better, which is definitely something to to consider. However, Ice Beam has many more offensive applications.
Of course, I'm sure there is a more tailored EV spread to allow it to take hits better from top-tier OU threats on both sides of the spectrum, but I won't look into that unless it gets voted for this round. It's a pity it doesn't learn Dazzling Gleam, because that would have been incredibly useful for it.
Second Edit: Just kidding. Protean has offensive merits on Porygon2 as well, with access to Agility.
Porygon2 @ Life Orb
96 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest
- Agility
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
With 309 Special Attack, Life Orb, STAB on every move, and awesome coverage, an Agility Poryon2 can definitely be a force to be reckoned with. All three moves give it absolutely perfect coverage bar Shedinja only, I believe. The Speed EVs allow it to outspeed a +1 Speed Adamant Dragonite after an Agility (I think). Porygon2 would be come a fantastic late game cleaner with this set, which is pretty straight forward. However, is it really worth using over Greninja who does not require setup and has better mid-game applications with U-turn and a high power move in Hydro Pump? You tell me.
I feel like Trace has more merits defensively and Analytic has more merits offensively than Protean.
The only set I can think of that could take advantage of Protean is as follows:
Porygon2 @ Eviolite
252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold
- Thunder Wave
- Recover
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt / Ice Beam
It really requires Thunder Wave in order to take advantage of Protean effectively, as moving first allows you to predict the type of the incoming move and change into that type prior. Recover is pretty clear in use. Shadow Ball is used for the awesome neutral coverage it provides (especially with STAB) and it allows Porygon2 to dodge Fighting-type attacks that may come its way (be weary of a surprise Knock Off, though). Thunderbolt and Ice Beam are used for their great coverage on top of Shadow Ball, but both have few defensive applications unfortunately. Thunderbolt also lets you handle Talonflame a lot better, which is definitely something to to consider. However, Ice Beam has many more offensive applications.
Of course, I'm sure there is a more tailored EV spread to allow it to take hits better from top-tier OU threats on both sides of the spectrum, but I won't look into that unless it gets voted for this round. It's a pity it doesn't learn Dazzling Gleam, because that would have been incredibly useful for it.
Second Edit: Just kidding. Protean has offensive merits on Porygon2 as well, with access to Agility.
Porygon2 @ Life Orb
96 HP / 252 SpA / 156 Spe
Modest
- Agility
- Shadow Ball
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
With 309 Special Attack, Life Orb, STAB on every move, and awesome coverage, an Agility Poryon2 can definitely be a force to be reckoned with. All three moves give it absolutely perfect coverage bar Shedinja only, I believe. The Speed EVs allow it to outspeed a +1 Speed Adamant Dragonite after an Agility (I think). Porygon2 would be come a fantastic late game cleaner with this set, which is pretty straight forward. However, is it really worth using over Greninja who does not require setup and has better mid-game applications with U-turn and a high power move in Hydro Pump? You tell me.
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