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The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

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Ubers are awesome said:
has anyone else considered banning wobbufet? I actually think he should be banned from ubers. We banned him from OU because he can setup anything. He can do the exact same thing in Ubers. So if we don't ban him from Ubers, then why ban him from OU, since everything still aplies.
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Please stop saying "Ban Wobbuffet" in this thread. No matter how much you beg, plead, and cry for him to get banned he will never be. Honestly, this kinds of posts are pointless, there is nothing that is "more broken" about Wobbuffet than a pokemon such as Mewtwo or Kyogre. Deal with specific threats and you'll be fine. Seriously Wobbuffet is even losing how effective it is now, I'm sure you can find a way to deal with it.
 
Gen is right. The Ubers tier started out as a banlist for Pokemon too strong for OU. It was never supposed to be a 'balanced' metagame, so making a banlist for a banlist kind of defeats the point of the Ubers tier. Don't like Wobbufet? Stop playing Ubers.

And I'd like to start a discussion that doesn't mention "Ban Wobbuffet. I recently made an Ubers team, and I've been searching for a good anti-lead that prevents pokemon from setting up Rocks, Spikes et c... So my question is whats a good anti-lead in ubers? Say taking on the top 5 leads or so.
 
HD said:
Gen is right. The Ubers tier started out as a banlist for Pokemon too strong for OU. It was never supposed to be a 'balanced' metagame, so making a banlist for a banlist kind of defeats the point of the Ubers tier. Don't like Wobbufet? Stop playing Ubers.

And I'd like to start a discussion that doesn't mention "Ban Wobbuffet. I recently made an Ubers team, and I've been searching for a good anti-lead that prevents pokemon from setting up Rocks, Spikes et c... So my question is whats a good anti-lead in ubers? Say taking on the top 5 leads or so.
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I use Deoxys-A with the move set
Deoxys-a@focus sash
4 atk/252 SpA/252 spe Hasty nature
-superpower
-grass knot
-extreme speed
-stealth rock

This defeats the top 5 leads with quite ease.
 
tripe said:
I use Deoxys-A with the move set
Deoxys-a@focus sash
4 atk/252 SpA/252 spe Hasty nature
-superpower
-grass knot
-extreme speed
-stealth rock

This defeats the top 5 leads with quite ease.
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With 252 Atk EVs and a neutral nature Deo-A does only 43-52% to 252 HP Deoxys-S. You don't even have those EVs.

We banned him from OU because he can setup anything. He can do the exact same thing in Ubers.
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But it is not really that sturdy, he can't take on specs/band attacks and he is even 2hkoed by most surfs.

And Specs Palkia is pretty underrated(as somebody else mentioned), especially in this age of Scarf palkia. Wobb will often switch in, excepting a Scarf and then will be 2hkoed by Spacial Rend. Spacial Rend also allows Palkia to remove the need for Draco Meteor (even though a Modest Dialga still does more with D.Pulse, but it is not that fast). I also use Gravity on the same team which lets me to fix the accuracy of Fire Blast, SR and DM. Not to mention that once palkia gets Hydro Pump it will be able to deal even more damage (with specs, 100 base speed and gravity)

That's just asking for wobbufett to kill you, by spamming a random move, that's why I consider wobbuffett the best revenge killer in ubers.
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But it is better to lose one guy then an entire team(unless you have, lets say, Impish Groudon for ray and other stallers for everything else. You will lose a guy, get over it. In the similar way, when I face Darkrai I just attack it, it will get a NP, I know that. Sleep will kill one of my guys but it is ok. I simply don't want to switch out as he uses NP/Sub
 
HD said:
Gen is right. The Ubers tier started out as a banlist for Pokemon too strong for OU. It was never supposed to be a 'balanced' metagame, so making a banlist for a banlist kind of defeats the point of the Ubers tier. Don't like Wobbufet? Stop playing Ubers.

And I'd like to start a discussion that doesn't mention "Ban Wobbuffet. I recently made an Ubers team, and I've been searching for a good anti-lead that prevents pokemon from setting up Rocks, Spikes et c... So my question is whats a good anti-lead in ubers? Say taking on the top 5 leads or so.
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Endeavor+Sash+Shard Mamoswine can take on the top 5 leads reasonably well. I don't know what the exact set is though. Theorymon knows though, I think.

Also, has anyone ever tried Magnezone in Ubers? Seems to me it can be pretty effective as it can smash Steels to pieces, opening up sweeps for the many powerful Uber Dragons. It also has tons of useful resistances, including Ghost, Dark, Dragon, Normal, and BoltBeam, and STAB Thunder coming off of base 130 Special Attack is devastating. Lets not forget Explosion too.:naughty: With a Scarf it can check SD Ray and Luke quite well and it can outpace the Lati Twins. Also probably one of the best Lugia counters in the game, becasue none of its moves do anything to you and you can Thunder it into oblivion. Pair it with Sweeper Deoxys-A and SD Rayquaza and you've got yourself a powerful offensive combination.

Can we also stop the Wobb flame war and discuss some other things please?
 
Fireburn said:
has anyone ever tried Magnezone in Ubers? Seems to me it can be pretty effective as it can smash Steels to pieces, opening up sweeps for the many powerful Uber Dragons.
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The most used dragon in ubers is Dialga, and Dialga resists Thunder. The next most popular steel is Scizor, who will uturn out of a direct switch-in and is already revenge-killed by wob if it bullet punches (assuming a banded scizor). It is true that stab Thunder is ridiculous, but the fact is that it doesn't really even beat the most used steels. There are also a lot less steels in ubers in general, so finding one to kill is an even more difficult prospect. Using a scarf just makes it wob fodder too. I suppose a charge beam set that sets up on scarf dialga draco meteors would be interesting, possibly worth trying for lulz.

@ ultimifier: the fact that most people just attack wob is why some people try to set up on it. For example, I occasionally try to get a cm on my latios because a thunder and a +1 dragon pulse kos wobb, and they generally don't risk an encore when you 2-3hko them.

About torment Heatran: Doesn't work. The simply fact is that unchoiced counters beat it anyway. kyogre's thunder breaks subs as well as surf, or it can cm in his face while resisting its only move. I'm pretty sure that Lati@s also break his subs with dragon pulse / thunder or they can just cm in his face like ogre while recovering off any lava plumes or burn damage. mix Palkia can use aqua tail / surf and dragon pulse also breaks the subs i bet, and bulk uppers set up on it too. Torment is really about abusing choice item users while really doing nothing to unchoiced counters. The real problem is the number of choice items people are using these days. They are just praying to be outsped or be wob fodder. Just use a team of fast setup sweepers and win the easy way.
 
I was using Magzone on one of my old teams(which I used when Platinum came out, everybody was about trying bu+outrage on Dialga), Scizor just got bullet punch so Meta was more common etc.

Nowadays BU Dialga is not common as it used to be, forry can carry Shed Shell, Scizor can U-Turn and Metagross is simply an inferior Scizor. Yes, you can kill Lucario for the cost of not being able to kill any Dialga. And If there is nothing mag can trap and kill, it is kind of useless.

@ ultimifier: the fact that most people just attack wob is why some people try to set up on it. For example, I occasionally try to get a cm on my latios because a thunder and a +1 dragon pulse kos wobb, and they generally don't risk an encore when you 2-3hko them.
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I don't think that it is about risking. You encore the move, switch in something that resists it or is immune to it and set up.
 
zzzzzzzzzzz said:
With 252 Atk EVs and a neutral nature Deo-A does only 43-52% to 252 HP Deoxys-S. You don't even have those EVs.


But it is not really that sturdy, he can't take on specs/band attacks and he is even 2hkoed by most surfs.

And Specs Palkia is pretty underrated(as somebody else mentioned), especially in this age of Scarf palkia. Wobb will often switch in, excepting a Scarf and then will be 2hkoed by Spacial Rend. Spacial Rend also allows Palkia to remove the need for Draco Meteor (even though a Modest Dialga still does more with D.Pulse, but it is not that fast). I also use Gravity on the same team which lets me to fix the accuracy of Fire Blast, SR and DM. Not to mention that once palkia gets Hydro Pump it will be able to deal even more damage (with specs, 100 base speed and gravity)


But it is better to lose one guy then an entire team(unless you have, lets say, Impish Groudon for ray and other stallers for everything else. You will lose a guy, get over it. In the similar way, when I face Darkrai I just attack it, it will get a NP, I know that. Sleep will kill one of my guys but it is ok. I simply don't want to switch out as he uses NP/Sub
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The way Wobbuffet is played is as a revenge killer and/or set up pokemon. You shouldn't be switching Wobby into Palkia, but rather, waiting for one of your pokemon to die, then Mirror Coat/Encore it. I can almost guarantee you that there is more than one pokemon on your team that should die so Wobby can set up your sweeper.
 
From this point on there shall not be any discussions pertaining to banning certain Pokemon from the Uber metagame.

First post has been updated with this rule.
 
the people who suggest banning pokemon from ubers clearly dont know what the uber tier even means. i doubt they even read the first post, just get their ass kicked by wobb and come here and bitch about it.

anyways, im finding that wobb is starting to become slightly underwhelming. many teams now carry at least 2 of the following strategies to deal with wobb: 2 scarf pokemon (so wobb cant revenge your only revenge killer), users with taunt, mixed attackers (mainly quaza, palkia, dialga), or using pokemon that 100% deals with SD quaza, SD luke, and RP groudon.

for example, my team which i got to number 1 on the ladder with had no troubles with wobb at all. it had a mixed dailga with max speed, a mewtwo with a set i cant reveal (but dealt with wobb), a darkrai, and a kyogre with max health.

so dealing with wobb isnt very hard, you just need to make smart teams
 
the people who suggest banning pokemon from ubers clearly dont know what the uber tier even means. i doubt they even read the first post, just get their ass kicked by wobb and come here and bitch about it.
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Yes, I don't even think Ubers are awesome has played ubers before (lol), I certainly have never seen him on the ladder. If you're going to post in this thread, unless you're asking for advice for something, make sure you have actually had experience with ubers. Do not go around suggesting ideas for viable pokemon when you have no experience at all.

Anyway, HD posted with
I recently made an Ubers team, and I've been searching for a good anti-lead that prevents pokemon from setting up Rocks, Spikes et c... So my question is whats a good anti-lead in ubers? Say taking on the top 5 leads or so.
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The key words are "prevents pokemon from setting up rocks and spikes". Fireburn suggested Mamoswine and tripe suggested Deoxys-a, none of which really do a good job of preventing pokemon from setting up entry hazards. If you're looking for a lead who can get stuff off the field I suggest using Forretress. He can set up his own entry hazards and spin away rocks and spikes, just be careful of Deoxys-a because some carry Fire Punch and even HP Fire. I've also used Armaldo successfully in the past to some extent, but I really wouldn't reccomend him to somebody, too gimmicky.
 
Scarf Skymin can outspeed Deoxys-S and has a 60% flinch chance with Air Slash. Seed Flare does hefty damage to Groudon and Kyogre. It also outspeeds scarf Darkrai.
 
ultimifier said:
the people who suggest banning pokemon from ubers clearly dont know what the uber tier even means. i doubt they even read the first post, just get their ass kicked by wobb and come here and bitch about it.

anyways, im finding that wobb is starting to become slightly underwhelming. many teams now carry at least 2 of the following strategies to deal with wobb: 2 scarf pokemon (so wobb cant revenge your only revenge killer), users with taunt, mixed attackers (mainly quaza, palkia, dialga), or using pokemon that 100% deals with SD quaza, SD luke, and RP groudon.

for example, my team which i got to number 1 on the ladder with had no troubles with wobb at all. it had a mixed dailga with max speed, a mewtwo with a set i cant reveal (but dealt with wobb), a darkrai, and a kyogre with max health.

so dealing with wobb isnt very hard, you just need to make smart teams
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I don't like to be the person who bitches about Wob, and I think it's ridiculous to do so seeing as it's highly unlikely he'll be banned anytime soon, but I AM one of those people who has an impossible time dealing with him... I wanted to know if I could squeeze out of you all some more methods for dealing with Wobbuffet.
 
Well, dealing with Wobbuffet is a matter of building your team well.

If you're playing stall, then after Wobbuffet kills some one, throw in Forretress and try to get up Spikes or Toxic Spikes depending on what you think of his team. Generally, though, if Wobbuffet picks off your scarfer, stall will be in for trouble...

If you're not playing stall...

Darkrai destroys Wobbuffet.
Giratina with Dragon Claw/Outrage wins easily.
Mixquaza OHKOes with Draco Meteor and Stealth Rock.
Specs Palkia can surprise it and 2HKO on the switch-in.
I think Specs Dialga can do the same.
Kyogre rapes Wobbuffet with Water Spout.
Mewtwo and Mew shut it down with Taunt.

Generally speaking, don't rely too much on Scarfers. Wobbuffet is a great thing for the metagame, because it punishes really speed-reliant teams that don't shore up their attacks. It's all right to lose one pokemon to Wobbuffet, but if it ever takes down any more than one, you need to rebuild your team.
 
Banryu said:
I don't like to be the person who bitches about Wob, and I think it's ridiculous to do so seeing as it's highly unlikely he'll be banned anytime soon, but I AM one of those people who has an impossible time dealing with him... I wanted to know if I could squeeze out of you all some more methods for dealing with Wobbuffet.
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Scizor, Mewtwo, and Giratina-o can beat Wobbuffet with ease. Scizor will just U-turn out of there and hopefully swap to a ghost to absorb the counter. Mewtwo has access to taunt, so do a lot of pokemon, but Mewtwo can actually do something to it that commonly carries taunt. Mew carries taunt, but normally doesn't carry any sort of attacking move. Darkrai doesn't have to taunt Wobbuffet, and can spam dark pulse to kill it. No other common pokemon commonly carries taunt. Giratina-o can just dragon claw til Wobb falls.
 
Just posting to add that stall works without a scarfer. I mean, I may not have the best team, and I may not be the best battler, but I'm winning a decent amount of games with my stall team. I haven't perfected it yet though, but generally, if I can get up Toxic Spikes, I beat an offensive team. Certain threats can be a bitch, but most of these threats are grounded and Toxic Spikes work their magic and help defeat them.
 
Well, stall used to not use scarfers, so it probably works. However, checking Darkrai without a scarfer/Scizor/Mewtwo/Deo-A is a problem. I used to use Careful Bulk Up Dialga over a Scarf Dialga, but then Darkrai would easily win with Focus Blast.
 
I have tested running a Toxicroak on one of my stall teams. Without it, I have 5 pokemon who lose to Darkrai and cannot switch into SpecsOgre. However, I've only had limited battles with it so I don't know its full potential. The set I am testing/have tested is Cross Chop/Sucker Punch/Knock Off/Toxic. Cross Chop is for STAB and the OHKO on Darkrai. Sucker Punch is if something survives with low HP and I need to revenge it (however, I rarely use it and am considering replacing it). Knock Off harms offensive teams by knocking off Life Orbs and stuff like that that power up sweepers. Toxic is mostly for Groudon and Giratina-O who commonly switch in on me, especially on stall as both of them are common on stall and both are hampered by Toxic. It being set-up fodder kind of disappoints me though.
 
To continue, can somebody explain the rise of Deoxys leads? What does it have what Deoxys-A doesn't? Especially when people use Focus Sash on him...

Skymin, Manaphy, Giratina, Ho-oh and mew
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Skymin is a great lead. I haven't seen a single Manaphy during August. Giratina is almost a staple on stall teams. Ho-oh - I remember somebody using him on a stall team (with 5 staples) he always 6-0ed my trick room team. Never seen him in August. Mew - heh you can be happy that you don't see any. Very hard to counter if used by a skilled player(i.e. someone who doesn't explode/memento immediately after dual screens).
 
Well, Ho-oh has its 4x SR weakness, low speed and its 130 base attack may not be enough to make up for that.
Manaphy is simply not bulky enough to set-up in the faces of most ubers and faces the 4-slot syndrome.
Mew is outclassed by its clone in every way except Baton Pass.
Giratina is a staple to stall, but its offensive counterpart is being favored now.

However I feel that Skymin is simply underrated, it can do quite well as an anti-lead, and Seed Flare hamers Groudon/Kyogre. It can scare a good number of pokemon into switching so it can start a subseed cycle too. Its 127 speed beats non-scarfers besides Mewtwo, who often carries only enough speed to beat Darkrai.

Also about Deoxys leads, I believe its because it has enough bulk to make opposing Deo-Es 3HKO with ExtremeSpeed.
 
tripe said:
Scizor, Mewtwo, and Giratina-o can beat Wobbuffet with ease. Scizor will just U-turn out of there and hopefully swap to a ghost to absorb the counter. Mewtwo has access to taunt, so do a lot of pokemon, but Mewtwo can actually do something to it that commonly carries taunt. Mew carries taunt, but normally doesn't carry any sort of attacking move. Darkrai doesn't have to taunt Wobbuffet, and can spam dark pulse to kill it. No other common pokemon commonly carries taunt. Giratina-o can just dragon claw til Wobb falls.
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Appreciate your and anyone else's help who posted....

Regarding Giratina, though, I myself have used the Dragon Claw thing to some effect, although most people are just smart enough to switch into someone else... usually a Lucario who just sets up on me or some such.

Scizor seems like the best option to go with... it annoys me how overused he is, which is why I try to avoid him, but I'm starting to think I can't get around it any more... I might have to go with him. -_o

Thanks guys.
 
Banryu said:
Appreciate your and anyone else's help who posted....

Regarding Giratina, though, I myself have used the Dragon Claw thing to some effect, although most people are just smart enough to switch into someone else... usually a Lucario who just sets up on me or some such.

Scizor seems like the best option to go with... it annoys me how overused he is, which is why I try to avoid him, but I'm starting to think I can't get around it any more... I might have to go with him. -_o

Thanks guys.
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Giratina can defend itself against Lucario, by firing off Will-o-Wisp or even hp fire in the origin form's case. The ubers metagame is all about prediction and team building.
 
tripe said:
Giratina can defend itself against Lucario, by firing off Will-o-Wisp or even hp fire in the origin form's case. The ubers metagame is all about prediction and team building.
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The only thing is that Wobbuffet will put up Safeguard when facing a Giratina, so Lucario or another sweeper can come in without fear.
 
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