Eh, agreed. Like I said, I don't look at ScarfChomp as a sweeper but a revenger or a finisher in the end to mop the floor. It does have a problem with the stall though (private said it before this post) but other than that ScarfChomp is an incredibly revenge killer. I do love the SDHabanChomp (in UBERS) but I do find it hard to setup and sweep with all the scarfers running around. On the side note, if it were ever to go to OU (I wonder how it will fare in HGSS meta hmmmmm)... Anyways yeah
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The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"
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Eh, agreed. Like I said, I don't look at ScarfChomp as a sweeper but a revenger or a finisher in the end to mop the floor. It does have a problem with the stall though (private said it before this post) but other than that ScarfChomp is an incredibly revenge killer. I do love the SDHabanChomp (in UBERS) but I do find it hard to setup and sweep with all the scarfers running around. On the side note, if it were ever to go to OU (I wonder how it will fare in HGSS meta hmmmmm)... Anyways yeah
My main complaint about Garchomp is that he's a liability when facing Stall. Scarf sets generally run Outrage, Earthquake, Stone Edge, Sleep Talk/Toxic/Dragon Claw. Outrage, Dragon Claw, and Toxic (maybe even Stone Edge) are Forretress bait, Sleep Talk fails against stall, and Earthquake is handled by anything with an immunity (notably Lugia, who only fears Stone Edge) and either Giratina form. Palkia, having the ability to be Mixed, at least can pose a threat. At the very least, Palkia's main way of doing damage does not allow Forretress to freely switch in and set up entry hazards (I'm not sure, but I believe Spacial Rend is a 3hko on Forry). Also, the problem with revenge-killing is that they can always switch, so unless you're using a Wobbuffet, you're not guaranteed a "revenge kill".
Firstly, we were talking about ScarfKia not MixKia. MixKia is not a revenge killer but more of a wall breaker and a sweeper I'd say so personally, I see this whole Palkia being more flexible due to its ability to act as a mixed sweeper and a wall breaker quite irrelevant to the argument we were having. Of course ScarfChomp (and ScarfKia actually) will have a hard time against a stall team. (however, SDChomp does quite well against a stall) Anyways, we were just talking about effectiveness of ScarfChomp and ScarfKia as revenge killers and not Mixed Kia and what not. But yeah as a wall breaker, I actaully really like SDChomp
I think Impish Support Groudon, extremely common on stall, beats an SDChomp, unless you use Haban Berry. If not that, then using Giratina and luring an Outrage into Forretress/Skarmory is the way to go. Another problem is vulnerability to Toxic Spikes, which bites (but Palkia has that also). Giratina-O is probably one of the best wallbreakers just because it is immune to them.
And most stall teams pack fast revenge killers anyways, so it's fair to say that stall teams are quite well-prepared for SDChomp. A good strategy would be to sacrifice Garchomp to let Rayquaza sweep, or vice versa.
uber stall teams are barely even stall teams any more from what im seeing. its usually just a forry+giratina-o+bulky groudon with another three random pokemon thrown in.
its getting much harder to beat these stall teams. classis uber stall with forry bliss gira groudon latias +other was much, much easier to beat. DAMN YOU JIBAKU (im finally admitting it now jib)
its getting much harder to beat these stall teams. classis uber stall with forry bliss gira groudon latias +other was much, much easier to beat. DAMN YOU JIBAKU (im finally admitting it now jib)
For stall, I try to overload one single pokemon. For example, SDChomp+SDRay is a combo I used to use. SDChomp with Haban to weaken Groudon, Lugia, and put Forretress into KO range for Rayquaza, so it can't explode. Groudon and Lugia are generally a Stall team's only answers to a SDRay, so it's not that hard to sweep. As a primarily offensive player, I'm interested in other strategies to beat Stall. Any other reliable ways?
i used a team that didnt allow forry to set up anywhere. HP fire and flamethrower in random places, mixed palkias and groudon with fire punch really fucked up forry. it seems like a big deal, but all of the following pokemon prevent forry from doing anything as long as they have the right moves: kyogre, palkia, groudon, rayquaza, darkrai, mewtwo, giratina-o, deoxys-f, mew etc...
Deoxys-A/Wobbuffet/Darkrai still causes trouble. Lure out the scarfer, beat it, sweep with Darkrai. That's really about it, and at that point the defender will need to predict perfectly to beat Darkrai with Blissey, making sure that Gira or whatever takes the Dark Void.
Of course, Toxic Spikes fuck up the strategy kind of, but if you work fast, you can avoid them.
Of course, Toxic Spikes fuck up the strategy kind of, but if you work fast, you can avoid them.
That Blissey strategy is screwed if Darkrai has Substitute or Taunt, a move which isn't too rare on Darkrai.
Actually, when I'm using a Blissey against a Nasty Plot Darkrai my biggest fear is of a +2 Focus Blast, which not only 2HKOes my Blissey normally, but also runs the risk of lowering my Special Defense, putting me in range for Dark Pulse to KO me.
Dark Void is one factor, but it is hardly the most scary thing Darkrai can do to Blissey, though none of this holds true if it runs Taunt or Sub (as who runs Sub / Dark Void / Nasty Plot / Focus Blast) but a simple Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, and Focus Blast set can really eat up the metagame.
Dark Void is one factor, but it is hardly the most scary thing Darkrai can do to Blissey, though none of this holds true if it runs Taunt or Sub (as who runs Sub / Dark Void / Nasty Plot / Focus Blast) but a simple Nasty Plot, Dark Pulse, and Focus Blast set can really eat up the metagame.
If toxic spikes are already down all you have to do is safeguard with wobbuffet and you'll get your sweepers in unscathed
True enough. I've gotta look up the stats on Darkrai and Focus Blast...
@cmurph: Wobbuffet can Safeguard, yeah, making things even worse.
I think that you forgot one thing.
Dragon Claw - 80 x 2 = 160
EQ - 100 x 1,5 = 150
EQ is a 2hko if I remember correctly. So the Haban Berry won't help you much.
how does he "check" palkia. i'm assuming your talking about mix palkia, in which case mewtwo, lati@s, garchomp, shaymin, priority, any other scarfer check palkia as well
This is a Scarf Primeape's Close Combat against a standard Choice Scarf Palkia:
339 Atk vs 236 Def & 322 HP (120 Base Power): 186 - 219 (57.76% - 68.01%)
and here it is against a Hasty mix Palkia:
339 Atk vs 212 Def & 322 HP (120 Base Power): 207 - 244 (64.29% - 75.78%)
So actually Primeape can hit Palkia quite hard, it switches in on a Kyogre once, it's in KO range for your Primeape (trust me, I know). On top of that the only safe switch-ins for Primeape are Rayquaza, Mewtwo, and Lati@s. Lati@s had to be sure you were not going to U-turn away, Rayquaza still takes 339 Atk vs 216 Def & 351 HP (120 Base Power): 102 - 120 (29.06% - 34.19%) from an Close Combat, and then has to worry about SR damage building up. Mewtwo is really the only pokemon which is truly threatening to Primeape. Even then, if it is Taunt CM Mewtwo it cannot stat up too much due to Punishment.
Now I'm not saying that Primeape isn't without faults, it cannot switch in on anything really (except Darkrai), and it is completely worthless against Origin and Alter. But if you can get it in safely (which can be done) then it will cause damage to your opponents team.
339 Atk vs 236 Def & 322 HP (120 Base Power): 186 - 219 (57.76% - 68.01%)
and here it is against a Hasty mix Palkia:
339 Atk vs 212 Def & 322 HP (120 Base Power): 207 - 244 (64.29% - 75.78%)
So actually Primeape can hit Palkia quite hard, it switches in on a Kyogre once, it's in KO range for your Primeape (trust me, I know). On top of that the only safe switch-ins for Primeape are Rayquaza, Mewtwo, and Lati@s. Lati@s had to be sure you were not going to U-turn away, Rayquaza still takes 339 Atk vs 216 Def & 351 HP (120 Base Power): 102 - 120 (29.06% - 34.19%) from an Close Combat, and then has to worry about SR damage building up. Mewtwo is really the only pokemon which is truly threatening to Primeape. Even then, if it is Taunt CM Mewtwo it cannot stat up too much due to Punishment.
Now I'm not saying that Primeape isn't without faults, it cannot switch in on anything really (except Darkrai), and it is completely worthless against Origin and Alter. But if you can get it in safely (which can be done) then it will cause damage to your opponents team.
>Read Gen. Empoleons post
right...
That's why I use it as lead. It's nice, and I'm not the only one who's using it! I saw another player with the same set and everything, always nice.
Btw: I run;
CC, Icepunch, U-turn, Punishment.
It does almost nothing to lead groudon/kyogre though. They'll both ohko with surf/eq, and I believe Dialga survives and ohkoes with draco. The deoxys forms will lay down stealth rock, and just die whiling inflicting massive damage. Darkrai will probably just retreat, which always isn't good.
Usually I U-turn out,
For Groundon I switch in Giritina-O (CM version)
Kyogre I switch in my own Kyorgre (Scarf version)
For Diagla, it depends usually I just CC though, mostly it doesn't survive..........Or is it just me?
Deoxys forms: U-turn out then switch scizor and a B-punch for the win.
Dakrai: U-turn/CC
I can tell you don't know much about Ubers now, Support/Lead Groudon almost always carry roar and thunder wave to neuter Giratina-O, which an unboosted dragon pulse won't scare Groudon away. Lead Kyogre tend to carry Thunder wave as well, effectively making the scarf Kyogre useless. Dialga can survive Close combat and thunder wave, or just kill primeape outright: 339 Atk vs 276 Def & 404 HP (120 Base Power): 318 - 374 (78.71% - 92.57%). The deoxys forms die anyways, so that's moot. Darkrai retreats, so that's moot as well, as he can still massively damage your team later on when Primeape is dead.
It's tue I haven't played Ubers lately.
But haven't seen much Groudon/Kyorgre's leads yet....
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