The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"

[Matthew]

To be fair the project uber thread was a mess, and the metagame back then is completely different to the current one we have now. Currently I would not advise you to take anything which that thread says without testing it yourself. That being said, Jolteon isn't that great in ubers, and I honestly would not suggest using it on a team over another pokemon which can absorb Electric-type attacks.

 

[frogbandit]

Ubers is sadly overlooked (there are a very limited number of players at a time on shoddy), probably because of their lack of variety of pokemon (kyogre dominates), but in my opinion, thats what makes it nice and relatively easier to play.

 

[mtr]

To be fair the project uber thread was a mess, and the metagame back then is completely different to the current one we have now. Currently I would not advise you to take anything which that thread says without testing it yourself. That being said, Jolteon isn't that great in ubers, and I honestly would not suggest using it on a team over another pokemon which can absorb Electric-type attacks.

Well said. To be honest, Jolteon felt about as useful as Spiritomb in OU. Which means that it's not useless (it helped with cleaning up stuff and using Yawn sometimes), but there's better stuff out there (Rotom, continuing with the analogy). In the metagame back then, was it really all about Choiced attacks flying around, even more so than it is now?

 

[Private Piplup]

Ubers is definitely not easy. Just because there is "lack of variety" does not make anything easier. Since everything in Ubers has sky-high stats (except Wobbuffet and the pixies Mew and Manaphy) almost anything can pull off a sweep. Thus, a good player has to be prepared for anything. Sub-CM Kyogre, for example, is something that catches people expecting a Specs-Ogre off guard, and can then proceed to beat the Palkia that was supposed to counter it. Unfortunately, Ubers IS often overlooked as "cheap" or "unfair". Seriously, the Uber Metagame needs some major PR work. Any ideas?

 

[Matthew]

Ubers is definitely not easy. Just because there is "lack of variety" does not make anything easier. Since everything in Ubers has sky-high stats (except Wobbuffet and the pixies Mew and Manaphy) almost anything can pull off a sweep. Thus, a good player has to be prepared for anything. Sub-CM Kyogre, for example, is something that catches people expecting a Specs-Ogre off guard, and can then proceed to beat the Palkia that was supposed to counter it. Unfortunately, Ubers IS often overlooked as "cheap" or "unfair". Seriously, the Uber Metagame needs some major PR work. Any ideas?

What PR about ubers? It has it's rules:

All pokemon that can be legally obtained in-game are allowed
Standard Clauses

That is all the uber 'tier' needs, people are quick to forget that Ubers is a ban list, and if you try to clean up ubers then what you will be left with is OU, it is really that simple.

 

[Jibaku]

In the metagame back then, was it really all about Choiced attacks flying around, even more so than it is now?

When I returned to Ubers after quite a break (that is, around July or so), Specs Ogre was basically on every team. Along with Scarf Palkia. In other words, yes, the metagame was more choicy then.

 

[Random Pizzaman]

What PR about ubers? It has it's rules:

All pokemon that can be legally obtained in-game are allowed
Standard Clauses

That is all the uber 'tier' needs, people are quick to forget that Ubers is a ban list, and if you try to clean up ubers then what you will be left with is OU, it is really that simple.

Uh, by PR I'm sure he means Public Relations, not Policy review (too much Smogon lol). Since ubers doesnt have a very good image to the general player.

 

[mtr]

I think more and more people will get into Ubers as they get sick of the circle jerk of Dragons and Steels in standard. At least that's how I began to play Ubers. The standard players who come into Ubers will probably be experienced and knowledgable in the mechanics of team-building and battling, which will help us a lot compared to the crapload of noobs who come in thinking that Psychic is the best move on Mewtwo.

 

[ultimifier]

another thing about the uber tier is that offense actually dominates. Very few players (Jib and 6A9mil [i hate him]) can run a succesful stall team in ubers as stall has a very hard time againts threats like mix palkia, darkrai, rayquaza, etc.

games are more fast paced and prediction and team building become more important as games are much, much shorter. hopefully more people will test out ubers in the next couple of months as OU becomes more boring and boring each and every month.

 

[Aprovleptos]

Stall teams may be rare but, are very successful. Take Rega for example. He got on top of the leaderboard with a (very well built) heavy stall team. Another example is Cristal, who was using a quick stall team IIRC.

The problem is that there aren't many pokemon that are capable of laying entry hazards easilly i ubers. Stall teams must rely on Forry to set up toxic spikes.

 

[tripe]

Stall teams may be rare but, are very successful. Take Rega for example. He got on top of the leaderboard with a (very well built) heavy stall team. Another example is Cristal, who was using a quick stall team IIRC.

The problem is that there aren't many pokemon that are capable of laying entry hazards easilly i ubers. Stall teams must rely on Forry to set up toxic spikes.

Toxic spikes aren't as useful against an offensive team than normal spikes, because of the fact that most offensive teams do carry more a mixed attacker or 2, such as Dialga, Palkia, or even the rather uncommon Giratina-o or Rayquaza. 3 of which are immune to toxic spikes, and do massive damage to stall teams, and normally require prediction to counter. Even after the mixed attackers are dead, the stall team is normally extremely crippled, to the point where it's let the enemy Garchomp set up or die, to which a stall pokemon will die either way. Forrtress isn't the only pokemon to supply entry hazards, it's normally chosen, because it can also spin away enemy entry hazards which can spell a stall team's doom, especially if it's toxic spikes. Infact, most players neglect Deoxys-D, someone who can actually take a hit, is only weak to two common pokemon in ubers, which is Scizor, and Tyranitar, and can lay entry hazards down better or just as well. Toxic spikes aren't common at all on an offensive team, so a stall team won't miss Forrtress that much. Stall teams can be very successful, especially if it's Jibaku's!

 

[Private Piplup]

Hmm... I never thought about using Deoxys-D on a stall team before. Although it does magnify the Taunt weakness most stall teams have, it gets Recover and both Spikes and Stealth Rock, and maybe Toxic would work well on the final move slot. Although being unable to spin away entry hazards could be troublesome (especially against other stall teams), you get a Spiker with reliable recovery. Also, most offensive teams only carry one member who sets up entry hazards, so if you can take down that member (which admittedly may be difficult) you're pretty much set. Or perhaps even splitting the job and having both Deoxys-D and Forretress on the same team.

P.S. Yeah, by PR I meant Public Relations, sorry about the confusion.

 

[ultimifier]

deoxys d is pretty much a free switch in for giratina-o. stall teams already have enough problems with gira as it is, and letting in get in and put up a free sub is never a good thing. at least forrestress can hit it with a payback and break subs

 

[umbarsc]

Deoxys-D should be running Taunt anyways, as it's the main thing that sets it apart from Forretress and lets it not be Wobb bait.

 

[zzzzzzzzzzz]

@umbarsc Why is Forry a Wobb's set-up bait? Wobb helps the opposing Forry, Forry doesn't help Wobb. And lots of stuff can just switch in on Forry with ease and set up. Like Lucario, Darkrai, Kyogre etc.

Anyways stall teams shouldn't waste the team slots on something that does nothing to Darkrai/Mewtwo.

Finally I would use Skarmory over Deoxys-D. Or a bulky Mewtwo.

 

[Anachronism]

stall teams aren't only about putting up hazards. Skarmory's lack of an ice resistance as well as its electric (most popular attack type) weakness is killer IMO. It also doesn't check anything in ubers. The only things it walls are groudon and garchomp, but all he can do is whirlwind them. Deoxys d lets everything set up. it's taunt is too slow to be all too useful. It is complete setup fodder for most top threats. The fact Is that stall doesn't win by putting up multiple layers of hazards, it wins by checking threats. The hazards are about making the game last a finite amount of time rather than being just an endless wallfest. If you can check all of the threats in ubers while also having useless spikers like skarm/deo d more power to you. Forretress can be a reasonable check to mewtwo and doesn't allow g-o to set up on it at least, and since there is no stall I have ever seen that can allow these guys setup time, then I would strongly advise using forty on stall, or better yet, use offense and stop making things hard on yourself.

mrt12 and I had a conversation about LO jolteon. It seems like it would be quite potent against offensive teams, as STAB Thunder (as well as immunity to said move) is amazing in ubers, and so is 130 speed. I have also lightly tested Modest Raikou, which is much more powerful and has access to Calm Mind, but is obviously not as fast, though it does still outspeed unscarfed palkia. Both of these guys also have access to shadow ball, but little else in the way of good attacks. Is STAB thunder and good speed enough to be viable in ubers (especially considering that both are a complete liability against stall)?

 

[Valantaro]

@umbarsc Why is Forry a Wobb's set-up bait? Wobb helps the opposing Forry, Forry doesn't help Wobb. And lots of stuff can just switch in on Forry with ease and set up. Like Lucario, Darkrai, Kyogre etc.

Anyways stall teams shouldn't waste the team slots on something that does nothing to Darkrai/Mewtwo.

Finally I would use Skarmory over Deoxys-D. Or a bulky Mewtwo.

I don't believe umbarsc called Forretress a Wobbuffet set-up bait, rather he mentioned how Taunt allows Deoxys-D to differentiate itself from Forretress as well as not become utter set-up for Wobbuffet (Tickle is a bitch). I haven't tried stall in a while, but Forretress seems to be the most reliable Spiker due to it being able to beat non-HP Fire Giratina-O 1 vs. 1, or at least prevent it from setting up, right?

 

[Amphetamines]

I don't believe umbarsc called Forretress a Wobbuffet set-up bait, rather he mentioned how Taunt allows Deoxys-D to differentiate itself from Forretress as well as not become utter set-up for Wobbuffet (Tickle is a bitch). I haven't tried stall in a while, but Forretress seems to be the most reliable Spiker due to it being able to beat non-HP Fire Giratina-O 1 vs. 1, or at least prevent it from setting up, right?

How exactly is Tickle a bitch for Forretress? When it has a high enough defense and a resistance to Pursuit, it can still escape Scizor or Tyranitar anyway. Plus, Wobbuffet can Encore only to have Forretress set up 1-2 of Spikes (basically doing its job), only allowing free set up for any Pokemon (or better yet a Pokemon that has an immunity to Spikes). Forretress loosing a load of HP to Pursuit sucks, but it can still get what it needs to do done in the meantime.

Deoxys-D may not be able to beat Gira-O 1 on 1, however it can still immobolize Gira-O from using Substitute or Calm Mind with Taunt THEN can switch to another Pokemon. Also, Deoxys-D can survive an unboosted STAB Shadow Ball.

 

[locoghoul]

no comments on ho-oh getting Brave Bird? or Groudon with Lava Plume?
Dialga with Metal Burst is kinda gimmicky imo and hydro pump on palkia is overkill

 

[blasphemy1]

no comments on ho-oh getting Brave Bird? or Groudon with Lava Plume?
Dialga with Metal Burst is kinda gimmicky imo and hydro pump on palkia is overkill

You are suggesting that we comment on Groudon(a physical attacker) obtaining Lava Plume(a special move, with a high burn rate), yet you are saying Hydro Pump is overkill on Palkia(when it can 2HKO Blissey in the rain?).

 

[TheFourthChaser]

no comments on ho-oh getting Brave Bird? or Groudon with Lava Plume?
Dialga with Metal Burst is kinda gimmicky imo and hydro pump on palkia is overkill

Ho-oh getting Brave Bird doesn't matter because of everyone using SR and Groudon won't be using Lava Plume. I don't know how Metal Burst on Dialga will work but Hydro Pump Palkia seems pretty good.

 

[ultimifier]

why use hydro pump on palkia when you can just use aqua tail. much better as it can pretty much OHKO blissey in the rain with a lustrous orb

 

[blasphemy1]

why use hydro pump on palkia when you can just use aqua tail. much better as it can pretty much OHKO blissey in the rain with a lustrous orb

There is something to be said for a Choice Specs set, which is often run. Choice Specs Hydro Pump will hit everything harder than Aqua Tail except Blissey.

 

[ultimifier]

so what is this new palkia set for choice specs. please elaborate.

 

[blasphemy1]

so what is this new palkia set for choice specs. please elaborate.

New? Hydro Pump is a move that can just fill in several different spots on the current specs set:

~Spacial Rend
~Surf / Hydro Pump
~Thunder
~Outrage / Fire Blast / Draco Meteor / Hydro Pump

Hydro Pump can fit in either place. With Hydro Pump, Outrage is no longer necessary, so the user can run a very, very destructive set with Spacial Rend, Hydro Pump, Thunder, Fire Blast / Draco Meteor.