Specs? you mean scarf, that's what about 50% of Palkia run. I normally run aqua tail on scarf Palkia just to hurt Blissey. Specs is hardly ever run, hell I've never seen a Specs Palkia used on ladder before, because it lacks the speed to revenge kill, and it still lacks to kill Blissey, which is any special attacker's nemesis.
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The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"
- Thread starter Kir
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If you actually took the time to read my post, you'd realize I was referring to Deoxys-D =/ Pursuit after 6 Tickles will KO it from the likes of Tyranitar or Scizor. What you said is exactly what I was saying about Forretress..so uh, yeah. What happened?
No, I don't mean Scarf.
Honestly, I have never been fond of Scarf Palkia, so I don't even consider it when thinking of these things(call it ignorance or ignoring the facts, but people don't know what they are doing). Why run Scarf Palkia when you can run Scarf Garchomp? There is little to no reason, either way you lose to Wobby, but Garchomp has higher base speed(thus can revenge kill unexpected Scarf Palkia), as well as the ability to set up Stealth Rock if you want(Stealth Rock as you scout their counter, then switch). Palkia IMO should be mixed with Lustrous, Specs, or Bulk Upping.
What does Scarf Garchomp outspeed that Scarf Palkia doesn't, those extra 7 speed points aren't needed. They both lose to Deoxys-e. There's nothing one can outspeed, but the other count, besides the speed tie. Most Scarf Palkia are special and pack more power than Garchomp, because of the higher base stat, 150 vs 130. Spacial rend is a better move, despite 20% more power from outrage, because outrage is just asking for something to revenge you. It doesn't even have to be Wobbuffet, Spacial rend at least gives you a chance of a minor sweep w/o being revenged so badly, and the ability to switch, allowing for a possible lategame sweep. Outrage doesn't give you the chance to switch until at least 2 turns after using it, which more often than not, you'll be revenged by then.
Palkia has better typing (IMO, that's debatable), can go mixed, and, with rain in effect, can hit way harder than garchomp. One of the things I don't like about Chomp is that in order to really hit hard it has to lock itself into outrage.
There is no simple reason to run Choice Scarf Palkia over Choice Scarf Garchomp, and vice versa in honesty. They are generally played completely differently, even if you ignore the general special / physical split. Garchomp's Outrage can be annoying at best as it's inviting certain pokemon to just set up all over it, or just deal tons of damage to it (eg. Forretress, Groudon). Oppositely, Palkia can just switch out to a designated counter. Arguably you can just avoid Outrage but then Dragon Claw is nowhere near as threatening.
On top of this, Palkia is far less predictable. Garchomp is generally one of two sets (Choice Scarf and Swords Dance, although arguably Choice Band is in there somewhere). Either way, Garchomp is sticking to the physical side and its counters often double up and counter more than one of its sets. A well played Palkia is much harder to face in my view because it's so unpredictable. Even on a Choice Scarf set, you never know if it's running Aqua Tail / Outrage, or even Focus Punch to catch Blissey off guard.
Garchomp also does not have a strong Surf, Thunder, or Draco Meteor. When you see Garchomp it's generally more obvious what it wants to do as opposed to Palkia.
I also prefer Palkia's typing, but arguably that is only because of the x4 Water-type resistance (Thunder immunity is nice for Garchomp, but most Thunder users also carry Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor / Ice Beam / a strong Surf or Water Spout).
However, there are plus points to Garchomp, but I won't address them seeing as you were arguing for Garchomp and likely know the plus points of Garchomp already. Palkia and Garchomp tend to need different support in a team, so I personally dislike saying that one is straight up better than the other for the reasons explained above.
Quoted for truth, but more often than not, Scarf Palkia is the better choice, because the "better stabs" imo.
I usually use a Haban Garchomp. I bluff a Scarf, and then SD when they switch to something to take the hit. Lugia is OHKO'd by Stone Edge after Stealth Rock, and the Haban Berry allows it to take down at least one pokemon that tries to revenge it (such as the aforementioned Scarf-Palkia). Swords Dance'd Earthquake does about 65%-70% to Forretress, who loves to switch into this, allowing this to get past Forretress after a little prior damage, which isn't hard. As a revenge-killer, I prefer Palkia, but only because all my Garchomps are SD-Chomps. Plus, the ability to go Dual Weather or Mixed is nice, since I use Garchomp's Thunder immunity to set up with. Plus, the unpredictability of a Palkia is better in my book than 7 extra base speed that often goes wasted.
but special mix deals with blissey extremely well as it is. as long as you have rain up and adamant orb (spacial rend or surf) + aqua tail is a OHKO on 4/252 blisseys
What does ScarfChomp outspeed that ScarfKia doesn't? You forgot that ScarfChomp outruns ScarfKias, which is a huge part of the UBERS environment as many uses Palkia and most of them are scarfed (well about half of them are). It is true that Palkia has more power and it is an important factor; however, a revenge killer isn't all about MASSIVE power. It's just to finish things and tie it up. Personally, I prefer ScarfChomp much over ScarfKia for being faster to outrun All Palkia variants.
Garchomp outruns about 40% of all ubers, and no I didn't forget, Scarf Palkia outruns itself via a speedtie. Palkia has the power, and the more consistent move to revenge with, and Outrage isn't so great to revenge with since it locks Garchomp in, making him even easier to revenge kill. Basically when Garchomp revenge kills something with outrage, it's most common move used when scarfed, it wobbs itself in, and it posts a sign saying "revenge me!!!".
I know, but if you predict a Wish or a Protect or a Softboiled, the Physical mix can switch in and proceed to wreck havoc, which the special mix cannot do.
I still don't understand why people are using Scarf Palkia. Sure, it is less predictable, but when I use a choice scarf pokemon, it better be because my team needs a check for a certain threat, otherwise it is typically a huge waste of a slot(hi, set up your DD Rayquaza once I beat your Palkia/Garchomp to a pulp).
People use Scarf Palkia because it often acts like the "glue" of many teams. It serves as a check/counter to Kyogre, checks DD Ray, and is only outsped by even faster scarfers and Deo-E. And even though its so quick with Scarf, it still has a powerful 399 SpA to threaten and revenge nearly all common Ubers not named Blissey.
Basically, Scarf Palkia is a reliable pokemon that is easy to slap onto a near finished team and helps prevent some pokemon from tearing a team apart. Thats why people use it so much.
For LO Jolteon, and LO Raikou, both are inferior Mewtwo. Unless your opponent beats your LO Mewtwo by paralyzing then I see no reason to use either. A Pokemon can be successful but if it is so outclassed then I see no reason to use it.
BTW, how about Encore + Destiny Bond Wobbuffet? It is simple - use Destiny Bond and Encore(or Destiny Bond again if they can't kill you easily) after that as they want to set up. After that bring in something for free.
BTW, how about Encore + Destiny Bond Wobbuffet? It is simple - use Destiny Bond and Encore(or Destiny Bond again if they can't kill you easily) after that as they want to set up. After that bring in something for free.
Ok, so what are you talking about? Rapid Spinners are so great when paired with Ho Oh, and it will appreciate the sun given off by this SR Groudon... Ho Oh with BB can 2HKO most of its counters with SR up, including Latias and Kyogre, the latter who he OHKOes if it's the Min/Min spread and Ho Oh is holding Life orb and SR is up. Giratina will be taking 40%~, so a 2hko with Spikes + SR up... Not too shabby eh? Please think out what you say before posting next time, thanks ^_^
hhjj you spelled Qwilfish horribly wrong lol. Qwilfish and Wobbuffet are two completley different Pokemon, you can't really compare them... Wobb always gets priority Destiny Bond, which makes him a better killer when paired with his other moves like Counter and Magic Coat.
Blasphemy1: Scarf Palkia is actually a GREAT Pokemon, with it's great special attack and speed he can easily open up Spacial Rend / Surf sweeps late game, as well as check DD Ray. Not only this but it can come in on Kyogre's water spout and hit it hard, weakening it's spout! Chomp may be faster, however it's physically more weak than Palkia is specially strong, and Palkia is more usefull over all, with more effective revenge killing moves, which are boosted by the omni present weather in ubers, be it sun or rain. So please explain how Scarf garchomp, is unequivocally better than Scarf Palkia.
ScarfChomp outruns more than half of UBERS as there are 9 UBERS that are naturally faster than him and 13 that are slower. While ScarfKia "outruns" iteself via a speedtie, ScarfChomp doesn't even speedtie and simply outruns them. Outrage isn't used in the early on but later so that doesn't matter. Also, Blissey can come in on ScarfKia most of the time (esp without outrage variants). ScarfKia is a great pokemon as it has overall great power and speed. Yet, for a revenge killer I would prefer to use ScarfChomp (while losing some power) for the speed as an insurance to simply outrun the 100 bases. I also prefer MixKia (special variant) over ScarfKia as the "superior" build (effective I guess).
The speed difference between Palkia and Garchomp has nearly no effect. Running Garchomp means you only get the jump on other Palkias and speed tie fellow Garchomps. No other common poke falls in between Scarf Palkia and Scarf Garchomps speeds. The only things Chomp does a bit better is beating Blissey and has a greater shot at beating SD Ray/Luke. Even then, Chomp can fall to SD Extremespeeds like Palkia if spikes are up, and Blisseys will often think twice about switching into Palkia as Mix Palkia grows more common.
I said, NON-scarf outspeeds about 40%, yes while Garchomp does have superior speed, his revenging options are rather limited. Outrage traps him in, Stone edge has horrible accuracy, Too many pokemon can come in on earthquake with immunity, and Dragon claw has pathetic base power for revenge killing. Palkia is the only common 100 speed base poke in Ubers that runs even near max speed. Jirachi being the only other common 100 base speed poke, it normally runs special defensive spreads. Blissey is the only reason I carry aqua tail on any Palkia I use. Scarf Palkia normally spams 1 move, and that is spacial rend, it has no problems creating a tiny sweep and being able to retreat, of course expect for Wobbuffet.
Didn't read anywhere in your post about non-scarfers but ok. Also, While it is true that outrage locks you in, you rarely see Garchomps outraging at their first sight. While Dragon Claw may be weaker, Chomp can OHKO Palkia or Rayquaza with Dragon Claw with the SR support so it is nowhere near as weak as you claim it to be. Again, outrunning ALL Palkia variants is a major plus for Garchomp.
And that is a huge plus in my book. Not to speedtie at most but to outrun all Palkia variants (the second most used UBER) is a significant trait for Garchomp.
Eh, that's true.
You also need to remember that Latias usually runs enough Speed to outrun non Choice Scarf Palkia, so that means that Garchomp not only will KO Latias, but also not scarf Palkia. Further things is that with SR Dragon Claw will deal 359 Atk vs 236 Def & 321 HP (80 Base Power): 264 - 312 (82.24% - 97.20%) this means that Garchomp has a 58% chance to KO with Dragon Claw. If you can happen to make Palkia have to switch out more than once, or you have a layer of Spikes down as well Garchomp will OHKO with Dragon Claw.
This isn't to say that they are totally equal. Garchomp is by far the better revenge killer when it comes to ubers, but when it comes to sweeping while carrying a choice scarf than Palkia has a better chance. Without a Choice Scarf Garchomp has an easier time sweeping with Swords Dance and his base Speed, while Palkia tends to be a wall breaker.
The major problem I have with Scarf-Garchomp is that it's weak to stall. Actually, that's probably an understatement. It's more of a liability than anything else. Forretress can come in on Outrage, both Giratina forms can come in on Earthquake, Stone Edge is merely a nuisance, and Toxic/Dragon Claw is also Forretress bait. Scarf-Palkia on the other hand, while being walled by Blissey, can opt to run Outrage to 2hko Kyogre and Blissey, and OHKO Forretress with Fire Blast. At the very least, not locking yourself into Outrage prevents Forretress from coming in and setting up a layer of entry hazards. As a person who generally performs badly against stall, the difference is invaluable.
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