All Gens The "What if" thread - Topic #66 : Physical-Special split in ADV

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but aren't Psychic types immune to Ghost attacks in RBY? You never really notice it since Night Shade is the only damaging Ghost move you really see in RBY and it ignores immunities, but I think Alakazam would be immune to HP Ghost.

EDIT: Them ninjas man

So that this isn't a completely redundant post, HP Electric / Grass on Slowbro sounds pretty neat since it lets you 2HKO Starmie at +2, which drastically reduces the risk of dying to a Thunderbolt crit. Losing Thunder Wave kinda sucks, though, especially with the recently discovered paralysis + stat boost mechanics.
 

McMeghan

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RBY is pretty much all about Psychic-types and Normal-types. HP Bug would be a solid option on a lot of stuff, even the Psychic themselves to do more damages to their counterparts, like Beds said.

A Pokemon that came to mind in particular is Machamp. It has that gigantic attack to abuse HP Bug better, and has a stab on Fighting moves. It would be able to threaten pretty much the whole metagame, especially if you wanna toy with EQ/Rock Slide for Gengar or Zapdos.
vs. Alakazam: 192-226 (61.3 - 72.2%)
vs. Exeggutor: 272-320 (69.2 - 81.4%)
vs. Jynx: 214-252 (64.2 - 75.6%)
vs. Slowbro: 115-136 (29.2 - 34.6%)
vs. Starmie: 136-160 (42.1 - 49.5%)

Submission is a clean 2KO on every weakness.

Something else that could rock that Bug/Fighting coverage pretty well is Pinsir, it would have a stab on HP Bug to pose a significant threat to every Psychic and access to SD/Submission/Hyper Beam to do work.

Hitmonlee could also sport that coverage, except it has access to HJK so you don't have to deal with the Submission recoil.
 

Lutra

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Persian would now be able to use HP ground (physical 70 bp) vs Gengar (34.6 - 40.8%)

I think Psychic-type wouldn't be a great type now. In addition to what's already been mentioned, Scyther with Swords Dance, Agility, HP bug (physical 70bp), Slash could attempt a sweep if there's too many Psychic types in a team.

The aim in RBY Ubers would probably to paralyze and wear down with Pinsir (Swords Dance, HP Bug, Submission), drastically reducing the viability of stall in it, and increasing legendary bird chances further. Similarly in OU, with Psychic domination lessening and normal, fighting and bug-types gaining ground, legendary birds won't just be enjoying their new HP toys.
 
FREE CUNO!!!!!

For real tho, Articuno and Cloyster greatly appreciate HP Electric to wear down opposing bulky waters. It isn't that effective for Cloy, since it still isn't beating Star and is kinda slow wearing down Bro/Lap as well. Articuno is another matter altogether, with its power it can actually wear down and beat its checks which is a huge deal.

The fighting/bugs that intrigue me most are Pinsir and Machamp maybe Hitmonlee. I think everything else is still garbage because there are a few other flaws holding them back. Lee is pretty shaky because it has nothing that isn't Normal/Fighting and then HP Bug, leaving it walled by Gengar, the birds and any faster Psychics. Hell, virtually anything faster than it checks it because of its paper thin defenses, and at base 87 speed there's a fair few things outpacing it. Champ is interesting because it's a nightmare to switch in to, but at the same time its defenses are really mediocre, it has no resistances and it is outpaced by a fair few things. Pinsir is the least terrible Bug type available, I suppose after an SD it's packing a lot of power. Can't take a special hit for anything and its speed tier isn't quite good enough but it's a big threat with some para and a boost.

So Lee I can't see succeeding, Champ is probably niche OU because it won't play out as well in practice due to being slow and not all that bulky. Pinsir could maybe be a regular sight, idk, it ends up like Kingler except it has setup opportunities vs half the meta rather than just GolDon. Then again Pinisir's opportunities are quite a bit riskier due to status and powerful special attacks
 
FREE CUNO!!!!!


The fighting/bugs that intrigue me most are Pinsir and Machamp maybe Hitmonlee. I think everything else is still garbage because there are a few other flaws holding them back. Lee is pretty shaky because it has nothing that isn't Normal/Fighting and then HP Bug, leaving it walled by Gengar, the birds and any faster Psychics. Hell, virtually anything faster than it checks it because of its paper thin defenses, and at base 87 speed there's a fair few things outpacing it. Champ is interesting because it's a nightmare to switch in to, but at the same time its defenses are really mediocre, it has no resistances and it is outpaced by a fair few things. Pinsir is the least terrible Bug type available, I suppose after an SD it's packing a lot of power. Can't take a special hit for anything and its speed tier isn't quite good enough but it's a big threat with some para and a boost.

So Lee I can't see succeeding, Champ is probably niche OU because it won't play out as well in practice due to being slow and not all that bulky. Pinsir could maybe be a regular sight, idk, it ends up like Kingler except it has setup opportunities vs half the meta rather than just GolDon. Then again Pinisir's opportunities are quite a bit riskier due to status and powerful special attacks
Bug is Super Effective on Poison in RBY, not .5x like in later gens, so HP Bug from Hitmonlee still at least does a decent chunk to Gengar. Gengar can KIND OF wall it, but it sure doesn't want to switch INTO HP Bug from Hitmonlee, especially if Gengar has gotten chipped earlier in the match.

As others have mentioned, HP Bug and Fighting are the standouts. Some Pokemon get better coverage options, like the birds, but what made RBY's movepools so laughable were the lack of Bug or Fighting moves of real note. HP completely changes that and so you can suddenly do super effective damage to Psychics and Normals, something that just ... didn't happen before.
 

Typhlito

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Cool. Sounds like a meta I'd want to try. Anyway, heres our next topic. What if abilities existed in GSC?



A meta with no abilities is all fine and dandy but if there were actually abilities in gsc how would things change? This would add a whole new twist to the chess game meta with many threats receiving a buff. But what exactly would change? Would new threats appear? Would current threats fade away? Would it also change up other tiers like ubers and uu? You tell me!
 
Not sure what you're fully asking on this one. If Pokemon received their original set of abilities, Pokemon with their hidden abilities, or just the concept of abilities existing period and how would it change the meta? Or is it simply open ended and you can answer in any way?

Tough to think how the game would be because there would be so much to explore. A good starting point would be Gengar as Levitate does a ton for it. Snorlax can't touch it with its main physical moves. In general, Snorlax gets weakened by abilities. Intimidate on RestTalk Gyarados takes paralysis easily and slows down Curse sets. Legendaries get Pressure which would quickly drain its attacks (and others).

Assuming Hidden Abilities are present, weather would play a big role in restructuring the game. At first I thought Sandstream would be cool as a way to negate leftovers recovery, giving offense a boost. But then I remembered about Ninetales and Politoed, so it would probably be like BW weather wars again, as you add Swift Swim or Chlorophyll in the mix, then might want to use Dugtrio to trap stuff (no Choice Band though so Earthquake's weak). No Stealth Rock and only a single stack of Spikes is good news fur the starters, especially Ninetales.

Rain probably the dominant weather? Except for Solar Beam, which gets cut off by Sandstream/Drizzle, there are no scary Grass attacks or Pokemon in general (Exeggutor is not so bad though). While the whole Hydro Pump spam would not be good like it is in BW, Electrics massively appreciate the 100% accurate Thunders. Zapdos is already notable for Pressure and can't be trapped by Dugtrio.

Speaking of trapping, nobody would like to play Wobbuffet.
 

Typhlito

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When I said abilities, I should have mentioned that I am talking about their adv abilities since they are the next best thing. Sorry for not being clear.
 
That makes it much better. So no weather wars, and Sandstorm would be quite a well looked at tactic alongside Spikes to accumulate damage. For the most part, Pressure would still be the big strategy.

Electrics are still amazing because of stuff like Volt Absorb. Lanturn and Jolteon can be used over and over again as they switch into Raikou and Zapdos and heal up.

Nidoking would try to take advantage of them, but I could see Machamp and Heracross absorbing Sleep and hitting back with Guts boosted attacks (Machamp doesn't have room for Earthquake on RestTalk though).

Mr. Mime shuts down Roar with Soundproof. Jolteon could pass to him first.
 

Karxrida

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Sandstorm out-damages Leftovers recovery in Gen II, gimping anything that relies on the item to tank hits (read: the entire meta). Zapdos and Raikou would have to Rest more frequently, but would also have an easier time netting kills with Thunder because nothing is healing. I could see Tyranitar being banned solely because of Sand Stream fucking up everything.
 

M Dragon

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That is interesting.
Snorlax is better because it cannot be intoxicated, which makes it harder to weaken. However, it is also easier to wall, since skarm beats non FB, t-tar beats non EQ and gengar/missy beat non SBall lax. It now needs 3 moves to cover threats instead of 2.
Zapdos is definitely much better, since its #1 counter can easily be removed now and it got a nice PP stall ability: pressure
Raikou has a new nightmare: Dugtrio. Dugtrio 2hkos with EQ, while Raikou cant OHKO with HP.
Gengar and Misdreavus get Intimidate. Gengar is extremely good.
T-Tar with SS is really scary. Dugtrio cannot 2hko it.
Skarmory is much worse now since Magneton can easily trap it, and it has a 23% chance of killing it with t-bolt.
Heracross and Machamp can abuse restalk sets with Guts
Vaporeon now walls Vaporeon, so it needs a second attack
Suicune is an even better walling machine with Pressure
 
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Actually, missy/gengar are immune to eq due to levitate. Trappers will be pretty good, and pressure on zap and raikou i think will make it harder for stuff that has 8 PP like Machamp's cross chop (it has to predict very carefully).
 

Isa

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Natural Cure Starmie = 100% guaranteed spikes free even in the long term vs. Cloyster.
 

Typhlito

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Nice. So next up we have a cool one. What if sand boosts the sp def of rock types in adv?



So this mechanic does exist in newer gens but what if it existed in adv? That would give a big boosts to the rock types in the tier so the bulky waters would have a harder time taking them down. but perhaps its too big of a boost for some mons? You tell me!

And if you like you can tell us how tar would do in both ou and ubers since this mechanic would revolve mostly around it.
 
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It would make ttar even better which is something that is never good D: I'm thinking this allows special tar to absolutely demolish gengar in any given situation since giga does even less. bulky waters are less reliable checks to tar now and swampert can't even hydro pump against a +2/+3 tar like it would otherwise 4 the kill (im pretty sure torrent boosted wont kill). So yeah this seems pretty op to me :(

I guess aero also benefits from this? can switch into gar i guess (though ttar is a better switchin but meh, vs opposing sand i guess?) and doesnt get absolutely demolished by special attacks from jolteon and waters etc. so that's nice. makes it easier to pivot in on special atkers :D
 
For starters Aero would become even better than it is: it can now revenge kill better against stuff like CMSpam as +1 Celebi, Jirachi and Suicune (only defensive though) cannot kill it (Celebi's Psychic does about 67% at +1, Superachi's TBolt does 87%, CroCune at +1 clocks out at 94%). It would also handle Gengar better as you can take the odd TBolt from it while caring less about other attacks. Of course you'd only be able to do this once or twice a game but still it's cool.

TTar would be OP, as now it can shrug off Superachi and Gengar's antics while tanking Hydros to set up on Pert, Cune, Milo etc. As great as that would be though it wouldn't be fully broken, I imagine people would come up with other countermeasures such as Flygon, EQ Pert with Atk investment, etc. Overall I see CMSpam and Spec Offense reducing in popularity while Sand Offense becomes EVEN MORE POPULAR, and yeah that would be pretty terrifying.
 

Typhlito

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I'd like to post on my own topic because I just thought of some things myself after thinking about it.

I agree with areo and tar (ban worthy) being much better than they already are but there are a couple others that would do great in such a meta.

One mon that comes to mind right away is cradily with its great sp def and access to moves like psych up and recover. Its able to easily go toe to toe with cm users with its good typing and moves like giga drain, rock slide and hp fire.

Another mon is its counter part, armaldo since its not as scared of the bulky waters with sand up. In some cases, it might be able to set up on pert and milotic and beat them. It could also help it be a better spinner/knock off user.

Lunastone would be able to set up with its own cm easier than before and regirock would be pretty scary once it gets a curse or 2 under its belt. Finally, rhydon would be even manlier than before lol.

Jeez that would significantly change how you build for adv in terms on how you deal with threats although if tar gets sent to ubers because of this, I dont know if its worth using manual sandstorm to get this effect.
 
If Ttar gets banned it would be kinda crappy for the meta as well because Ttar's sand does a lot for making stuff like heracross, defensive cune and curselax easier to deal with. Manual sand is definitely not worth it although without Ttar, manual rain/sun might see more use.
 

mael

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i could see cradily being used a lot more, since it now handles all the cm mons with psych up, can form a very very good wincon with curse rest eq and rock slide. especially the latter seems pretty good on defensive teams against offense considering that all the special sweeper won't be able to touch it and with curse it's gonna have a funtime vs aero, ttar and similar too. much alike snorlax, except probably a bit less immediate power and body slam utility.
rock curse mons in general would gain a lot of utility. just think of regirock for example, the main problem would be to fit a rock pokemon together with tyranitar; most of them cannot do anything special to severly outclass curse ttar, which means you'll be running a different tyranitar set, and have only 4 slots left to support 2 rather slow mons and check all the threats.

come on man, ttar is already waaaay too good, but this would, in my opinion, push it over the edge of utility. i mean there is already little to no reason not to use it, and when it gets better handling special sweepers it would see even more use. it's like, rachi cannot even do a lot of damage with hp grass anymore. sdef resttalk set? y/n, handles like every single special sweeper there is.

and of course aero gains from the boost, but nothing big in my opinion, sure it's gonna check a few things slightly better but it doesn't seem worldchanging.+

this change would be very fun to try, except maybe for tyranitar getting even better.
 

Typhlito

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Definitely looks fun to try. Anyway, on to the next one. What if there was team previews in DPP?



So the metagame of DPP uses scouting to help formulate a strategy to win. Sometimes just knowing what their team is will give you the edge over the opponent. But what if this wasnt the case? Would this change the DPP meta as we know it? You tell me!
 
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mael

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i am sure i played in at least one tournament where this was a thing, and i have to say it made playing so much better in my opinion. i remember being rather sceptical about teampreview when it was first introduced, because as we know, new things are always bad things, but as time flew by, i learned to appreciate knowing what the teams look like and not having to guess while planning my game. with that in mind i think dpp would see some good changes:

first of all, the leadspot loses so much importance. machamp for example is one of the best leads in my opinion; i value it because it almost always reveals at least 2, if not more mons of the opposing team, information i can work with and base my plays on. if this trait becomes worthless machamp might not see as much usage. same with azelf and it's rocksset, since you can build in countermeasures for that more easily now.
but it's not just the viability of single mons going down, it's rather the whole "turn 1 match up" situation that changes so much. just think of using ttar as a lead. sure it gives you a very good situation to move on with the game, by getting up rocks and forcing a few mons out, even killing stuff, depending on what the set you use is, but that only works if the opponent uses the leads you hope to see. once the opponent leads with machamp for example, you know you'll be trying to catch up from turn 1. while good teambuilding in a "no preview metagame" limits the caused damage, it's still nothing desirable. team preview obviously changes that, since you can basically counteract to whatever you expect the opponent will lead with out of his 6 mons. no pressure to think through million lead match ups while teambuilding sure is a good thing, cause it loosens some restrictions while teambuilding.

i don't think overall teambuilding would change too much (outside of the above mentioned lead section), because balanced teams will still work the same way (and be even better), offense will still use the same combinations to break through teams, though a few mons might become worse, cause scarfers won't give set up as easily as they do (i mainly refer to mons like lucario). i think stall would get way better, cause no more random magnezones popping out of nowhere, since you can now at least attempt to double out or something. also longterm planning is easier with preview.

very often have i wished that dpp was already with preview, i think it would make playing a lot easier and less random, because fuck having to guess.

edit: i probably exaggerated with my choice of words, but i didn't mean to imply dpp is random wild guessing
 
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SmogonWorkHorse

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I feel as though dpp isn't mainly about random WILD guessing, team structures always have to adhere to some form of logical formation to avoid being slaughtered by the most common and deadly threats. You might not know the exact Pokemon left, but you will know the role it plays in the opposing team. This can be said when you face a player who is potent at the game and not a completely new player who hasn't grasped the basics of teambuilding and roles in dpp ou. "It comes with experience" isn't by any means over exaggerated, many newer players use recycled teams so there is that and even with new freshly-baked teams, unless it is a complete UU team or theme team there will be several chances for you to try to force out a Pokemon you have a hunch on being on the opposing party, this is why DPP is amazing, without team structure knowledge, you cannot function well enough to be one of the top, which is why it is rewarding to learn the metagame and at times make calculated guesses, but its controllable to say the least.

In regards to the question, team preview for a battler means a few things with alleviating pressure of Starmie to play offensively and as a more passive team player depending on whether a spin blocker is present, a pursuiter is present and how many opposing Pokemon it can kill and come in on without much risk. For stall based players you look at team preview as being a God send that MOST importantly reveals if there is a trapper on the opposing team, when hazards are stacked in practise, you cannot at times afford to scout for a magnezone and double switch your Forretress out as maybe too many hazards are down or the opposing Pokemon has the potential to set up (which may not be a threat to Fort or Skarm but due to hazards and having to switch back in after a failed series of switches to scout for Magnezone).

Seeing the opposing lategame sweeper is pretty huge for any playstyle that you use, in all honesty to cut this post short, team preview WILL be a massive asset to stall teams which struggle in this metagame with many excellent wallbreakers and high powered sweepers. Due to stall slightly being nerfed currently, it will create an interesting scenario to say the least.
 

Typhlito

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Nice. So how about this one? What if Boom was buffed in BW?



So we know explosion and self destruct was nerfed in BW by removing the def splitting (cuts opp's def in half) and turn ending (opp doesnt use any attacks that turn if slower) effects. This caused boom to go into obscurity due to it not killing nearly as much as it used to. But what if that wasnt the case? What if boom retained these abilities? How would this change the meta as a whole? Would there be new threats and would current threats fade? You tell me!
 

Oglemi

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Scarf Lando-T becomes nearly twice as threatening with an almost ensured way to kill an opp late in the game, which I think would be one of the more pronounced effects of having exploders back in standard play. Ferrothorn would have yet another tool to play with but probably wouldn't be on it too much tbh. Other than that, SR Metagross might make a comeback, and Forre has something other than Volt Switch to let it not be a momentum suck.

In lower tiers, Claydol would actually have something positive about it, but probably still not worth using. Cryogonal gets something to hit Entei with and actually do something other than Toxic Slowking. Qwilfish would be 100% more threatening than it already is since it can now almost pick and choose what it wants to blow up on rather than in like DPP where it has to half guess from the lead slot usually.

Too bad Crustle doesn't get any boom otherwise it'd be an amazing dedicated hazards lead in RU, but alas.
 
I always hated the Explosion nerf. It was just one of those fun things that GF decided to get rid of (just because of the doubles format).

That said, it honestly wouldn't have changed BW too much, it would just have been another thing to prepare for alongside defending against weather and powerful sweepers. Not too much "key" stuff gets it. I mean, Metagross and Snorlax (and several others) get it in DP, and it's not really running rampant, a generation where they're better than in BW. They won't get used more because of booming. Landorus-T would have been very good with it though, behind that huge Attack stat and Scarf.

Genesect would have been ridiculous.

*Edit*

How stupid of me. Booming would have been crazy in BW because of Team Preview. The one and only saving grace against Snorlax is that you can switch a Ghost in on it. With the knowledge of whether one is there or not is a huge buff to it (so this ties into the previous topic). Nothing takes a STAB CB Self-Destruct. This alone would have raised the amount of Ghosts to block the move (a shaky prospect because spin blocking was already difficult to do).
 
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