wow this is very cool i see your evidence i however also seen those pokemon drawings that were not bad something to ponder about very cool
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There Were 190 Pokémon!
- Thread starter Zog
- Start date
What do you mean?
Eh, is it just me, or is it that everything except Ho-oh is in National Dex order?
Scizor/Shuckle/Heracross are 212, 213 and 214 in the Nat Dex. This is followed by Ho-oh, who just probably got plunked in randomly, idk, because after Ho-oh came Sneasel, which was after Heracross in Nat Dex order(215). Then after Sneasel all the suspect Gen 2 Pokemon came together IN NATIONAL DEX ORDER, FROM SNEASEL TO LUGIA. Then of course you have Ho-oh plunked in randomly between Heracross and Sneasel. Then of course after Victreebel(the last Pokemon in the programming) was the National Dex order for 152-211(Chikorita-Qwilfish), then Celebi after Qwilfish thanks to 212-249, 250 being clunked up there.
Someone explain?
Scizor/Shuckle/Heracross are 212, 213 and 214 in the Nat Dex. This is followed by Ho-oh, who just probably got plunked in randomly, idk, because after Ho-oh came Sneasel, which was after Heracross in Nat Dex order(215). Then after Sneasel all the suspect Gen 2 Pokemon came together IN NATIONAL DEX ORDER, FROM SNEASEL TO LUGIA. Then of course you have Ho-oh plunked in randomly between Heracross and Sneasel. Then of course after Victreebel(the last Pokemon in the programming) was the National Dex order for 152-211(Chikorita-Qwilfish), then Celebi after Qwilfish thanks to 212-249, 250 being clunked up there.
Someone explain?
I'm guessing Ho-oh was moved to the end of the Pokedex just so that all the legendaries could be at the end of the Pokedex. And I'm guessing that Scizor starts at 212 because that's either where they decided to tack on the pokemon they had already designed, or because they wanted to insert the "new" pokemon in front (so that the early pokemon will be at the beginning).
Eh, I dunno. But the fact that all the missingnos were actually Johto Pokemon in order (save Ho-oh) is a bit too heavy of a coincidence. There is no particular reason for Scizor being the first Pokemon there either, they could have just started programming them in from Chikorita all the way down.
I was browsing Bulbapedia because I can't sleep and I stumbled this thread. So I thought I'd chip in some information I had lying around. I've been looking through the code in these games for years and wrote my own theories on what the "missing pokemon" could have been. So here's some of my information.
0x45 has the exact same cry as Crobat, which leads me to believe that Crobat was one of the Pokemon intended for Gold. However if you check this list, you'll see that when you trade 0x45 to Gold it's Piloswine. So no, the Missingno's "gold counterparts" are not what was intended for that slot in Red.
There's a table in Gold that tells the game which Pokemon will be "converted" to Gold's new hex order, which I used to add that information to Bulbapedia. For all of the Missingno slots (and glitches 0xBF and beyond) it's simply in order. I myself have no idea why they did it this way, but it does prevent Missingno's from being traded over.
It checks if the Pokemon being traded over has the same type(s) as the one in Gold's database. If not, it just gives you the abnormal message. Since Missningo has the unused "Bird" type, attempts to trade Missingno will always fail. Gamefreak forgot to write an exception for the Magnemite family. Try trading one of those from Red to Gold and see what happens!
There are other cases of Missingnos with unique cries.
0x43: The same cry as all the other Missingnos, but has a different pitch.
0x45: Same cry as Crobat in gold, probably Crobat's ID
0x51: Unique cry, similar to Pidgey
0x5E: Unique cry, same cry ID as Dratini but pitched differently.
0x5F: Same unique cry, but lower.
0x7F: Slighty different version of Rhydon's cry.
0x89: Has EXACTLY the same cry as Dragonair, type, pitch, and length.
Further supporting my "Family" theory for 5E/5F, you'll see that 5E and 5F are in the middle of a bunch of families that follow the pattern: First stage, second stage. This also applies to 0x56/0x57 that don't have any cry data for them.
0x52: Vulpix
0x53: Ninetails
0x54: Pikachu
0x55: Raichu
0x56: Missingno.
0x57: Missingno. (Possibly another family)
0x58: Dratini
0x59: Dragonair (Evolution comes at an earlier ID)
0x5A: Kabuto
0x5B: Kabutops
0x5C: Horsea
0x5D: Seadra
0x5E: Missingno. with unique cry
0x5F: Missingno. with same unique cry except pitched lower
0x60: Sandshrew
0x61: Sandslash
This tells us that two "first / second" stage families were dropped for Red and later put into Gold. Gold introduces 30 (or 0x1E) new cry types, and the only Pokemon past 151 in Gold that has a cry type from Red/Blue is Crobat and Murkrow. So basically, when the Pokemon were in Red/Blue, they had different cries.
So that's basically all I can remember/find now. I'm sure I have more information somewhere, but if you have some theories of your own let me know and I could take a look inside a first or second generation ROM and see what I can find.
0x45 has the exact same cry as Crobat, which leads me to believe that Crobat was one of the Pokemon intended for Gold. However if you check this list, you'll see that when you trade 0x45 to Gold it's Piloswine. So no, the Missingno's "gold counterparts" are not what was intended for that slot in Red.
There's a table in Gold that tells the game which Pokemon will be "converted" to Gold's new hex order, which I used to add that information to Bulbapedia. For all of the Missingno slots (and glitches 0xBF and beyond) it's simply in order. I myself have no idea why they did it this way, but it does prevent Missingno's from being traded over.
It checks if the Pokemon being traded over has the same type(s) as the one in Gold's database. If not, it just gives you the abnormal message. Since Missningo has the unused "Bird" type, attempts to trade Missingno will always fail. Gamefreak forgot to write an exception for the Magnemite family. Try trading one of those from Red to Gold and see what happens!
There are other cases of Missingnos with unique cries.
0x43: The same cry as all the other Missingnos, but has a different pitch.
0x45: Same cry as Crobat in gold, probably Crobat's ID
0x51: Unique cry, similar to Pidgey
0x5E: Unique cry, same cry ID as Dratini but pitched differently.
0x5F: Same unique cry, but lower.
0x7F: Slighty different version of Rhydon's cry.
0x89: Has EXACTLY the same cry as Dragonair, type, pitch, and length.
Further supporting my "Family" theory for 5E/5F, you'll see that 5E and 5F are in the middle of a bunch of families that follow the pattern: First stage, second stage. This also applies to 0x56/0x57 that don't have any cry data for them.
0x52: Vulpix
0x53: Ninetails
0x54: Pikachu
0x55: Raichu
0x56: Missingno.
0x57: Missingno. (Possibly another family)
0x58: Dratini
0x59: Dragonair (Evolution comes at an earlier ID)
0x5A: Kabuto
0x5B: Kabutops
0x5C: Horsea
0x5D: Seadra
0x5E: Missingno. with unique cry
0x5F: Missingno. with same unique cry except pitched lower
0x60: Sandshrew
0x61: Sandslash
This tells us that two "first / second" stage families were dropped for Red and later put into Gold. Gold introduces 30 (or 0x1E) new cry types, and the only Pokemon past 151 in Gold that has a cry type from Red/Blue is Crobat and Murkrow. So basically, when the Pokemon were in Red/Blue, they had different cries.
So that's basically all I can remember/find now. I'm sure I have more information somewhere, but if you have some theories of your own let me know and I could take a look inside a first or second generation ROM and see what I can find.
I tried forcing 0x45, 0x51 and 0x7F by tampering with both RAM addresses D059 and CFD8 in Red/Blue (were you using Red/Green or Yellow?) and to me 0x45 and 0x51 used the exact same cry type, pitch and length as Golbat and Pidgey rather than any unique cry type sounding like Crobat/ an 'altered Pidgey'? But 0x7F did sound different. I don't know whether 0x7F was just a different pitch and/or cry length combined with the cry type of a real Pokémon or was indeed using an unused cry type? It would be interesting if it was.
I know that D35A (the main sound/music) along with C0EF and C0F0 ('soundbank') modify what's being played when you enter a new map location (for Pokémon Yellow, I'm assuming that you could increase the 4th digit by 1 to convert it to Red/Blue). Do you happen to know what value (for D35B) these Crobat and Murkrow cry types are located?
I love this so much.
Well, yeah, on topic, 'Scizor' and Scyther don't seem far off, being separated by only 4 pokes(Staryu, Blastoise, Pinsir and Tangela). Then again, the entire list seems to be really random...
Also some randomness: Charmander's evolution family is separated by Squirtle between Charmander/Charmeleon and Wartortle between Charmeleon/Charizard.
Also even more randomness: There was a glitch Pokemon in Gen 1 called Charizard 'M. Charizard's data was located before the data intended for Larvitar(which, due to Larvitar's non-existence, was Missingno instead), and after Larvitar came Pupitar, TTar and Lugia, which were coincidentally the ghost/Kabu fossil/Aero fossil Missingnos.
This would have been really freaky if not for the fact that Charizard 'M's data was in FF, a long shot from Charizard's B4.
Also some randomness: Charmander's evolution family is separated by Squirtle between Charmander/Charmeleon and Wartortle between Charmeleon/Charizard.
Also even more randomness: There was a glitch Pokemon in Gen 1 called Charizard 'M. Charizard's data was located before the data intended for Larvitar(which, due to Larvitar's non-existence, was Missingno instead), and after Larvitar came Pupitar, TTar and Lugia, which were coincidentally the ghost/Kabu fossil/Aero fossil Missingnos.
This would have been really freaky if not for the fact that Charizard 'M's data was in FF, a long shot from Charizard's B4.
I saw this theory posted on TV Tropes, so I came over here to give my two cents:
The theory about there being 190 Pokemon is almost certainly correct, especially since the GameFreak employee said it's true. I'd always kinda suspected that those Missingnos were planned-but-erased Pokemon myself, anyway.
However, the theory that the algorithm or lookup table used to translate the Pokemon into the second gen indicating what the missing Pokemon were is almost certainly wrong. Ho-Oh's name is pretty much the same in English or Japanese, so the fact that he looked confused the moment you mentioned his name says a lot; this in addition to the Crobat sound effect mentioned above. You really had no reason to assume that his response was based on a translation error that I can see. The overall theory is a good one, but don't let confirmation bias get you caught up in the details.
The theory about there being 190 Pokemon is almost certainly correct, especially since the GameFreak employee said it's true. I'd always kinda suspected that those Missingnos were planned-but-erased Pokemon myself, anyway.
However, the theory that the algorithm or lookup table used to translate the Pokemon into the second gen indicating what the missing Pokemon were is almost certainly wrong. Ho-Oh's name is pretty much the same in English or Japanese, so the fact that he looked confused the moment you mentioned his name says a lot; this in addition to the Crobat sound effect mentioned above. You really had no reason to assume that his response was based on a translation error that I can see. The overall theory is a good one, but don't let confirmation bias get you caught up in the details.
I agree, additionally if we are to assume that the internal ordering of the R/B Pokémon is correct (Rhydon & Ken Sugimori interview), by Occam's Razor why should we assume the G/S Pokémon being 'squeezed' (in between real Generation I Pokémon) in their final Pokédex ordering [with the exception of Ho-Oh] is also correct? For instance, most Generation I Pokémon do not even follow in order of their evolutionary stages, though the fact that we have Slugma>Magcargo, Teddiursa>Ursaring may suggest that the 'ordering' is very much a quirk of the equivalent G/S algorithm itself and does not imply what the formatted identifiers were.
RE: 'Crobat cry', yes 0x45 doesn't use one and it corresponded to Golbat's cry type instead (Red/Blue at the very least). I'll have to take a look and try to find whether there are any unused, playable cry types (but I'll also have to mess with the pitch to try and match the used cries to existing R/B Pokémon). Its worth stressing that there are even 'formatted cry types' IIRC (they don't play anything), in between the order of real cries but they don't correspond to the index ordering. You can observe this for yourself with the code 01XX5AD3 (partial music modifier but 0 cry pitch), cries start at 0x14.
Tried EXACTLY that:
Right: Pokémon Red version (spanish) viewing the stats of Magnemite traded to Gold.
Left: Pokémon Gold version viewing the stats of same Magnemite received from Red.
You fail.
No you, the gold version, I can't see the type >_>
Also, left version is Red, right version is Gold. YOU fail.
Also, left version is Red, right version is Gold. YOU fail.
One thing I have found, well, bizzare, especially since FRLG lacking them, is the Jhoto or 'Gen2' Pokemon in Kanto.
Houndour/doom, Slugma/Magcargo, Wooper/Quagsire ect. Yes, some do appear in Jhoto, but some, such as the fan favourite Houndour/Houndoom, do not. Maybe those are the missing 39, and their exclusivity or appearances in Kanto in GS are a reference to Alpha and Beta RG.
In anycase, this is not the only thing interesting from Generation 1, there's the aborted 64DD RPG/likely what became Colosseum, Female Player Character/Leaf, connections/allusions to MOTHER, what they planned with Mew.
Here is a thought though. We know Mewtwo was meant to be a post game bonus boss with only passing references to it in Cinnabar, and from the sounds of interviews, they had all intentions of making GS if RG were remotely successful. Could Celebi have been made because Morimato chucked Mew in there?
GS era Pokemon aside, how Mew would have originally fit in the 190, if it ever did, and if he was originally planned to be the 'Mewtwo' of GS is just as interesting.
We know Mew was 'thrown in there'. Mew is really early in the index aswell. Could have he replaced another MISSINGNO/Gen2? Also, Mew was submitted for registration in 1990, being 'Thrown in', does not really add up.
Really, if anything, an entire book on making RG/GS would make for some very good reading.
EDIT:
About Mew, I wonder if Mew was originally meant to have fled to the Unknown Dungeon(Horrible name for the Nameless Cave. Dungeon gives off the wrong feeling), with Mewtwo as the download. Considering the stats difference, and the long standing rumour that it Venomoth and Butterfree are in the wrong lines, nothing would surprise me. RG were a mess after all.
There really needs to be an extensive interview about Capsule Monsters, '190', Mew/Mewtwo, Venomoth/Butterfree, hold overs, things that never happened and whatnot.
Houndour/doom, Slugma/Magcargo, Wooper/Quagsire ect. Yes, some do appear in Jhoto, but some, such as the fan favourite Houndour/Houndoom, do not. Maybe those are the missing 39, and their exclusivity or appearances in Kanto in GS are a reference to Alpha and Beta RG.
In anycase, this is not the only thing interesting from Generation 1, there's the aborted 64DD RPG/likely what became Colosseum, Female Player Character/Leaf, connections/allusions to MOTHER, what they planned with Mew.
Here is a thought though. We know Mewtwo was meant to be a post game bonus boss with only passing references to it in Cinnabar, and from the sounds of interviews, they had all intentions of making GS if RG were remotely successful. Could Celebi have been made because Morimato chucked Mew in there?
GS era Pokemon aside, how Mew would have originally fit in the 190, if it ever did, and if he was originally planned to be the 'Mewtwo' of GS is just as interesting.
We know Mew was 'thrown in there'. Mew is really early in the index aswell. Could have he replaced another MISSINGNO/Gen2? Also, Mew was submitted for registration in 1990, being 'Thrown in', does not really add up.
Really, if anything, an entire book on making RG/GS would make for some very good reading.
EDIT:
About Mew, I wonder if Mew was originally meant to have fled to the Unknown Dungeon(Horrible name for the Nameless Cave. Dungeon gives off the wrong feeling), with Mewtwo as the download. Considering the stats difference, and the long standing rumour that it Venomoth and Butterfree are in the wrong lines, nothing would surprise me. RG were a mess after all.
There really needs to be an extensive interview about Capsule Monsters, '190', Mew/Mewtwo, Venomoth/Butterfree, hold overs, things that never happened and whatnot.
Munna is likley one of the missing 39. Quite possibly it's evo too.
Is it possible to use Pokemon Stadium 2 to trade these missingno's to a gen 2 game, and have them show up as the pokemon they were intended to be? I only have one usable game boy.
Also, using the old man glitch (when you're making your name to determine who you run into on the cinnibar coast), is there any way to know WHICH missingnos you'll be encountering? And can you level them up with rare candies until they go back down to level 2 (so basically, is it possible to have a level 2 missingno and trade it over to GSC and have it become a level 2 raikou or lugia or something).
I know nothing about game hacking and modifying/checking data and so forth, so that's why I ask. Sorry for the dumb questions :-).
Also, using the old man glitch (when you're making your name to determine who you run into on the cinnibar coast), is there any way to know WHICH missingnos you'll be encountering? And can you level them up with rare candies until they go back down to level 2 (so basically, is it possible to have a level 2 missingno and trade it over to GSC and have it become a level 2 raikou or lugia or something).
I know nothing about game hacking and modifying/checking data and so forth, so that's why I ask. Sorry for the dumb questions :-).
Yeah, but why 6 legendary's in with the same gimmic(fire/water/lightning) in the same game? That seems kind of odd.
You can do this and it will give you SOME SORT of gen 2 pokemon. The GSC games were designed so that the missingnos would translate into actual gen 2 pokemon that were in the game.
But that's not the point. The point is that this transfer data had to be created when the Gold and Silver games were created, so while we do know which empty RBY slots correspond to which GSC pokemon, we have no way of knowing which ones were actually intended to be in the game.
there should be a video of showing that transferring missingnos between stadium-gen2