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Tier Shift Metagame (THIS IS BW)

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Nice meta!

You can expect me playing some games there too trying out some stuff. Once I can get some insight on the meta I'll make a competitive team :).

You can find me on Showdown on the name MrOmgness, you can always whisper me for a game. Or you can contact me here :).
 
Let's try not to turn this into regular OU where people just ban anything they're afraid of. Let's focus on creativity and team synergy to deal with powerful threats and not go on a banning spree. That is what ruined OU, and I don't want to see it ruin this tier too.

Also, maybe down the road we could even have Tier Shift Analyses for pokemon :). Make sure y'all are taking notes!
 
WaterBomb selling Tier Shift so much. Good to see someone so passionate about a side metagame.

Alright as I was hanging in the top of the Tier Shift Ladder ever since the ladder came out as "superwii64cube" I have a lot to say about the current state of the metagame.

First of all a lot of people are mentioning weather being the best way to play. This was actually very forseeable imo and weather is easily the dominant playstyle. However, it is not absolutely broken and some weathers can have extremely easy ways of being played around. I don't want to release too much information about my main Tier Shift team so I really don't want to say what I use against weather but lemme tell you, there are some mons that some weathers are absolutely wrecked by.

A Pokemon that we should see more of is Sawk. Sawk is an incredible pokemon nowadays being rather fast and a Fighting typing is rather good as a lot of teams keep a Fighting-Type resistance less of a priority and Sawk can clean through a lot of good teams (in particular can wreck Sand Stall with some mons out of the way) It's speed tier imo is not too big of a deal and can wreck most unprepared teams.

The best way of wrecking about in Tier shift is SUB. Substitute is so good now because everything is so offensive (sand stall still gets shit on by sub users too) A lot of mons nowadays can force switches/rely on Toxic Stall (Think Cress) and the proper user of sub pretty much stops them cold. Also, a hard hitting mon with Sub (SubSalac Heracross for example) will pretty much be guaranteed to do damage because if something like that can get a free hit, all hope is lost. Forcing switches and subbing imo is the way to go in this metagame because of how offensive it can get that sub gives SO much initiative in offensive momentum.

Onto the next thing. There are some Pokemon that is pretty much good on every team. The mon we are talking about here are dudes like Golurk, dudes like Kabutops and others. They are overall good as they support good resistances/matchup vs other teams while being damn good in their own right. I honestly think Golurk is possibly the best offensive utility mon nowadays and among the top of the best mons now. I absolutely support viability ranking since enough debate could lead to more help to newer players and stabilizing the metagame.
 
I would love to host the viability rankings for this meta. I don't know if it's too early for that but if plenty of people agree then i will make one.
 
Mhmmm. I don't want to rule out bans, regardless; and perhaps more interestingly, I don't want to rule out bringing things down, using the same process.
 
This certainally is an interesting take on things. Right now, I am laddering with an OU sun team I made a while back, with decent success thus far.

Right now I would say we need to give things time to settle down a bit before we start discussing the possiblity of banning things, or unbanning things for that matter....that being said, I would love to see how excadrill fairs in this enviorment....
 
I just made myself a speed list that would be applicable in this tier for all pokemon that break the 100 speed mark:

Floatzel (Rain) 788
Whimsicott (Sun) 771
Jumpluff (Sun) 766
Luvdisc (Rain) 710
Leafeon (Sun) 700
Sawsbuck (Sun) 700
Leavanny (Sun) 688
Lumineon (Rain) 684
Golduck (Rain) 656
Lilligant (Sun) 656
Stoutland (Sand) 634
Shiftry (Sun) 634
Qwilfish (Rain) 634
Kingdra (Rain) 612
Kabutops (Rain) 612
Seismitoad (Rain) 608
Mantine (Rain) 590
Ludicolo (Rain) 590
Victreebel (Sun) 590
Seaking (Rain) 582
Venusaur (Sun) 568
Poliwrath (Rain) 568
Tangela (Sun) 546
Maractus (Sun) 546
Sandslash (Sand) 546
Exeggutor (Sun) 524
Relicanth (Rain) 524
Gorebyss (Rain) 512
Huntail (Rain) 512
Tropius (Sun) 508
Vilepume (Sun) 502
Beartic (Rain) 502
Omastar (Rain) 502
Ninjask 495
Armaldo (Rain) 480
Tangrowth (Sun) 480
Accelgor 449
Electrode 449
Aerodactyl 416
Swellow 416
Crobat 405
Zebstrika 396
Jolteon 394
Weavile 394
Sceptile 394
Bellossom (Sun) 130
Persian 394
Floatzel 394
Swoobat 392
Serperior 390
Scolipede 388
Purugly 388
Whimsicott 385
Cincinno 383
Tauros 383
Jumpluff 383
Liepard 375
Dugtrio 372
Azelf 372
Raikou 372
Ambipom 372
Alakazam 372
Archeops 372
Electabuzz 372
Rapidash 372
Lopunny 372
Kadabra 372
Emolga 372
Durant 370
Galvantula 368
Tornadus 364
Simisage 364
Simipour 364
Simisear 364
Starmie 361
Froslass 361
Cryogonal 361
Scyther 361
Manectric 361
Linoone 361
Raichu 361
Fearow 361
Dodrio 361
Miltank 361
Regigigas 361
Charizard 361
Slaking 361
Cobalion 357
Virizion 357
Basculin 357
Swanna 357
Raticate 355
Luvdisc 355
Mienshao 350
Espeon 350
Zoroark 350
Mismagius 350
Gengar 350
Latios 350
Latias 350
Typhlosion 350
Entei 350
Leafeon 350
Jynx 350
Minun 350
Plusle 350
Pachirisu 350
Haunter 350
Sawsbuck 350
Primeape 350
Keldeo 346
Magmar 346
Unfezant 346
Terrakion 346
Infernape 346
Leavanny 344
Sigilyph 344
Lumineon 342
Pidgeot 342
Chatot 342
Murkrow 342
Staraptor 339
Vigoroth 339
Zangoose 339
Kangaskhan 339
Mr. Mime 339
Pikachu 339
Furret 339
Golbat 339
Drapion 339
Uxie 339
Mew 339
Zapdos 339
Flygon 339
Victini 339
Shaymin 339
Electivire 339
Garchomp 333
Thundurus-T 331
Landorus 331
Rotom-S 331
Rotom 331
Rotom-F 331
Jirachi 328
Darmanitan 328
Lilligant 328
Pinsir 328
Cherrim 328
Girafarig 328
Articuno 328
Illumise 328
Volbeat 328
Stantler 328
Golduck 328
Ledian 328
Misdreavus 328
Sawk 328
Klinklang 328
Moltres 328
Venomoth 328
Ninetales 328
Volcarona 328
Tentacruel 328
Salamence 328
Celebi 328
Arcanine 328
Sharpedo 328
Kyurem 328
Yanmega 328
Houndoom 328
Xatu 328
If any mistakes please correct me.

I can see why sun does so great, most scarfers actually fail at outspeeding sun's most potent chlorophyll sweepers and most priority moves dont do a good job in sun. Aqua jet gets lowered in sun and doesnt do much vs grass-types anyway, mach punch only deals minor damage vs venusaur, victreebel, jumpluff (it does hit sawsbuck hard tho), while bullet punch and shadow sneak are rarely seen.

On top of that Sun also has good defensive options with Cresselia, Torkoal, Tangrowth,...
 
^The main problem I see is that when you calculate equivalent base stats with Sun/Rain/Sand, you're doubling the base stat. The actual stat is what's being doubled, not the base stat. For example, tier boost Stoutland has a base 95 Spe stat, but its doubled stat is closer to an equivalent base 240 Spe stat than base 190. A good general rule for calculating the equivalent base Spe stat of a Pokemon with doubled speed is to double the base speed stat and add 50. It won't always be perfect (maybe a point off), but it will give you a much better approximation.
 
Holy crap, even Scarf Electrode doesn't outrun a few rain sweepers.

Jolly Electrode hits, if my grasp of the base stat formula is correct, 449 or 450 speed. That's either 673 or 675 when scarfed. I think +Speed Lumineon hits 685 in the rain. Floatzel hits 719 when neutrally natured and 790 with a Jolly nature. Anything below Lumineon should be easy pickings. (Lumineon too, if the trainer gets cocky and doesn't fully invest in speed EVs.

So between Expert Belt Ninjask and Scarf Electrode, you have a pair of serious countersweepers.

And that Ninjask set I promised to outrun Sawsbuck: (and now certain Jumpluff!)

Ninjask@Expert Belt
Nature:Jolly
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
-X-Scissor
-Aerial Ace
-U-Turn
-Protect

493 or 494 speed to start with. Huh. It hits either 739 or 741 after one turn of speed boost. Using 300 as Jumpluff's base, this set will outrun neutral natured Jumpluff by a fairly wide margin. Jumpluff apparently hits 699 with a neutral nature or either 768 or 769 with a +speed nature. There's no point in investing more EVs to catch +speed Whimsicott or Cottonee, but this spread will get past either with a neutral nature. (Or little speed investment, I suppose.) Max Speed Sawsbuck actually only hits 702 or 703, so this Ninjask goes for 704 after a Speed Boost.

Ninjask@Expert Belt
Nature:Jolly
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 Atk / 92 Def / 164 Spe
-X-Scissor
-Aerial Ace
-U-Turn
-Protect

As far as I know, this set outruns everything that Ninjask can possibly outrun after a single speed boost. Anything faster, and you have to either try for another Speed Boost or already have one. (Outrunning and KO'ing a Sawsbuck would let you slaughter any Jumpluff, too!) That defense will actually let Ninjask survive any Aqua Jet once, even in rain. Mach Punch is obviously not very effective. Weavile/Sneasel/Mamoswine's ice shard is something to watch out for, but it can tank any weaker ice shard once. Vacuum Wave will do nothing anyway, so it's best to focus on physical defense. Sucker Punch from anything with base 92 attack or more will slaughter Ninjask, so watch out. (Haven't done the calcs for all the Shadow Sneak, Bullet Punch, Quick Attack, or ExtremeSpeed yet.)

There is speed creep, and then there is Tier Shift.

NINJA EDIT: I knew something was slightly off there. Redoing speed calcs. Everything but Ninjask and Electrode was off by 100 or 110 depending on nature, is all.

EDIT EDIT: If you're using Ninjask against rain teams, you can go for a 252 Atk/ 60 Def / 176 Spe spread to outrun Luvdisc. You know, if anyone were to use it.
 
Agent Gibbs said:
^The main problem I see is that when you calculate equivalent base stats with Sun/Rain/Sand, you're doubling the base stat. The actual stat is what's being doubled, not the base stat. For example, tier boost Stoutland has a base 95 Spe stat, but its doubled stat is closer to an equivalent base 240 Spe stat than base 190. A good general rule for calculating the equivalent base Spe stat of a Pokemon with doubled speed is to double the base speed stat and add 50. It won't always be perfect (maybe a point off), but it will give you a much better approximation.
Click to expand...

Ah I see, I was wondering about that.

I will re-adjust it in a bit!

EDIT: Did it, I changed it to the actual stat. If you spot any mistakes let me know, there probably are a few minor ones. When we can understand the meta some more I might change things around, like adding speedboosters (wether it be by a move like dragon dance or agility or by ability) and dropping mons that usually dont run max speed + mons that are not competitive.
 
I've been whining a lot about changing this or that, but perhaps I should get something straightened out before I complain more/stop complaining.

Now, there have been a lot of metagames trying to get lesser used pokemon to see use; indeed, I'd wager a fairly significant percentage have this as either a stated or indirect goal. But they tend to do it with very specific fine tuning, careful editing of movepools and abilities.

Screw that.

This metagame is all built on a very simple concept: All pokemon below OU have all their base stats increased by 5 per tier below OU.
Click to expand...
We all should recognize this. It's the opening statement of TierShift. I'm wondering if perhaps I'm missing the point of this meta. My assumption has been that the point of boosting the stats of non OU pokemon was to make them playable with OU pokemon to increase the pool of usable pokemon, and that if I just wanted NU pokemon to be good I'd go play NU.
Maybe I'm wrong though. Perhaps the point was not: "Let's use more pokemon!" but rather "Who would be best if the sats were different!?".
 
The point is to try and make more pokemon usable with an incredibly simple ruleset. No special cases except maybe banlist changes. A set of blanket rules (the stat boosts) that apply evenly across the board.

The intended outcome is, yes, to make more pokemon usable, but I don't want to make special exceptions all over the place, where X pokemon don't get the same stat boosts because of reason Y, because that complicates the ruleset.

This comes with a number of inherent flaws, largely that it doesn't fix pokemon with flaws outside of their stats (ie Slaking still has Truant, Flareon still has no movepool). This is expected.

Certainly, there is a very different pool of usable pokemon, and there are good pokemon from every tier. This is good. When the usage stats come out, we'll see how many pokemon achieved serious use.
 
Well, I'll probably keep complaining then, but I'll try to tone it down. Even I can see how annoying I was getting.

I'm surprised to see how many of the S rank pokemon of each tier are ignored.
OU
Keldeo (nope)
Terrakion (nope)
Landorus (nope)
Politoed (if he exists, he will be used.)

UU
Kingdra (I'm the only person I've seen use one)
Mienshao (I've seen 2 others besides myself.)
Raikou (1 or 2)
Snorlax (like 5)
Togekiss (nope)
Zapdos (not since the begining)

RU
Druddigon (1)
Slowking (A few early on, like 3 recently)
Entei (Was popular in the begining)
Escavalier (1, which died quickly)
Uxie (nope)
Moltress (Used to be a lot, but now... none.)
Sceptile (Maybe 2 or 3, for sheer popularity's sake)

NU
Braviary (5 perhaps)
Jynx (Common enough I suppose.)
Kangaskhan (nope)
Samurott(nope)
Sawk (1 other than me)
Scolipede (a few I think...)
 
Mostly, otherwise there's a lot of mismatch teams.
Gardevoir shows up often enough. Sigilyph too. Regirock and Regice are good at showing up outside their weather. Zangoose/Swellow/Ursaring doing their facade thing. Some Durants, Whimsicott, and I think Dusknoir.

Oh, I did see ONE terrakion.
 
Scarf Terrakion is still a great pokemon in Tier Shift.

I think most people are testing a bunch of NU and RU Pokemon right now instead of forming teams with a goal in mind.
 
The Dusknoir you saw was probably mine. I was playing with a max defense set of Pain Split/WoW/Shadow Sneak/Curse for giggles, and it's pretty effective.
 
Most competent teams I have seen were weather teams. Not much to say about them, they fill the top of the ladder.

Then, there are is a small semi-competent bunch of teams ripped from previous metagames, often NU which got boosted significantly. Decent teams with good synergy, but also always teams with a tendency to be weak against certain threats which were irrelevant when the team was created.

The last group is probably the largest, consisting of just random teams of varying quality, not too different from the noob teams in other metagames. Quite common, but rarely a threat if you adress them properly.


The latter two groups don't really have a goal as said before indeed. They are just from a group that wants to have fun. Since the NU metagame is quite shaken, I can see more players like me using their old NU teams in Tier Shift, which might very well be unusable in the current NU.

My team is from the second group; and has indeed obvious weaknesses: Sand being the most important, but Sigilyph, Galvantula, Jynx, Scolipede, Heracross, Chansey and Blissey are hard to handle for my team as well.
 
Moltres is a beats in TS, I don't see how you haven't seen more, I use a Bulky LO one with Fire Blast & Hurricane and it just tears through teams like it's nothing, counters almost every fighting type there is and OHKOes almost the entire game in the sun.

The same with Slowking that it's an amazing Special Wall and it's a great partner for Tangela for a very effective regencore but that might not be too used due to sun dominance (even though he's one of the few bulky waters that enjoy the sun).

Togekiss is a great Special wall for when you need to take care of sun special sweepers and so is Snorlax and Entei who can be pretty dificult to take on the sun without something that doesn't care about Sun Boosted Flare Blitz. I've seen a lot of Uxie as suicide leads to set up screens and prepare a Shell Smash from Clamperl & co.

The problem with the OU S' is that everything is faster now, Terrakion can't even outspeed the regular weather abusers in their weather nor can he sweep as easily as before with everything being bulkier, the same with Keldeo who is killed easily by some of sun's best abusers like Exegguttor and Victreebel, who can switch easily in the sun and even without can survive one Hidden Power and OHKO back

I wonder how a weatherless TS would look though, It could be explored in a tournament or something since it's clear it would be very different to what we have now, just a though
 
Here's something interesting:

181.png

105HP/80Atk/80Def/130SpA/105SpD/70Spe
Ampharos @ Choice Specs
Trait: Static
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def / 0 Spd
- Volt Switch
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Nice bulk, nice power, gets voltswitch. I've been experimenting a new team, and this guy is doing some considerable damage. If scizor is any indication, slow switch turn does have it's place as a way to sneak in faster frailer attackers.
 
I'm finding Baton Pass teams to be scarily viable. In addition to causing five forfeits for each actual game played, winning that one in six games can be pretty easy. Spore/Ingrain Smeargle packs the extra speed and only loses to Taunt, so you just need to run something very fast with Taunt (Sableye works, I'm using Azelf because Dual Screens + Explosion) and you're two-thirds of the way to winning on turn 2 before your opponent can even figure out what's going on. Gorebyss and Huntail do a fantastic job of not dying and getting a Shell Smash passed, and at that point it's game over. I've been using Nidoqueen and Sawsbuck as my recipients simply because Nidoqueen has great power/coverage/bulk/speed, and Sawsbuck does a great job of outspeeding weather-boosted mons while retaining coverage and power.

Also, what about Linoone? It now has a relatively ok base 85 attack with Belly Drum + STAB Extremespeed. Hits 1076 Attack after a Belly Drum when Timid or 1180 when Adamant. And its base 115 speed beats the seemingly very prevalent base 105's all over the tier. It may not be the best, but just having it on your team can make it greatly limit what your opponent does in fear of letting Linoone become the win condition.
 
After screwing around a lot and letting my rank fall, I found something to stop Sawsbuck. SKARMORY. HECK YEAH. I'm finding the steel bird to be more useful here than I did in OU. (where I ignored it)

Yes, I've dealt with Baton Pass. And by dealt, I mean run away when I realized my team had no phazing moves.

Linoone. I fought maybe two. First one died quickly. Second one did damage, and I can't remember if it swept me or if I wore it down.
 
So there are three pokemon that have mercilessly swept me before:
Sawsbuck
Gorebyss
Clamperl
I now have Skarmory as the single pokemon that has actually withstood Sawsbuck for me, but what about the others? Has anyone else found something you can actually switch into the shell smashers?
 
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