Trick Room in the 5th Generation

[Jthreau]

Trick Room is very fun to play with in Rotation Battles. Setting up for a sweep is very doable in this battle type thanks to the buffs remaining on the 'mons even when they are rotated.

 

[Katakiri]

I'm sure the mods wouldn't want a thread for an item that's only really good for Trick Room & Gyro Ball, so I'm necroing this thread for a bit of discussion about something I've never seen anyone but myself really use or even mention and I think it's time to let the cat out of the bag so~:

Macho Brace (Cuts a Pokemon's Speed in half.)

I never see anyone running Macho Brace on a Trick Room team outside of Bronzong for Gyro Ball. The big deal about Macho Brace is that any Pokemon in the game minus the ridiculously high speed Pokemon can be a threat in Trick Room with a Macho Brace. In fact, the vast majority of all Pokemon become slower than a minimum Speed Exeggutor, which is Base 55 Speed. And by "the vast majority", I mean all Pokemon slower than Base 125. (Weavile with Macho Brace is slower than minimum Speed Exeggutor.) Base 58 Pokemon (Scrafty & Zweilous) tie with minimum Speed Ferrothorn. I've been using this tactic for a while on my Trick Room teams and it always catches people.

Some notable Pokemon that can be abused (Or better abused) in Trick Room because of Macho Brace:

Espeon
Xatu
Jirachi
Celebi
Haxorus (Sorry, Druddigon)
Dragonite (I'm REALLY sorry, Druddigon)
Salamence (Poor Druddigon...)
Kyurem (I think Druddigon needs a hug)
Hydreigon
Scizor (Escavalier's just lucky Scizor can't use it's Choice Band)
Porygon-Z
Meloetta (<3)

You get the picture; anything that's willing to give up it's item is completely usable in Trick Room on top of the naturally slow Pokemon that Trick Room in known for.

To address a few points:

"Bronzong can already use Trick Room. What good is Jirachi?"
Jirachi is in fact just as bulky as Bronzong due to it's much higher HP, but the biggest factor is U-Turn. Trick Room teams always have had the problem of blindly switching or resorting to faster Pokemon that take damage in Trick Room before they U-Turn. A Super Slow U-Turn is absolutely ideal for a Pokemon that sets up Trick Room for it's team. And that's the same reason I made mention of Espeon, Xatu, Celeb, & Meloettai; U-turn with Trick Room is very, very good.

"Losing items means that those OU Pokemon lose their bite. What makes them good in Trick Room?"
What makes these Pokemon good in Trick Room is that they never run any Speed EVs meaning that they can invest in their other stats making them bulkier, allowing Mixed Pokemon to hit harder, or even turning them into a completely different Pokemon. For a couple examples; Porygon-Z can go Max/Max Offense and take down it's normal counters like Blissey with a powerful STAB Download/Adaptability Double Edge while still hitting strong Specially. Haxorus on the other hand gains the ability to run a Bulky Set without any drawbacks. Nowhere near as bulky as Dragonite but he has Swords Dance and after a Swords Dance he has 2 turns to mow down whatever is in his path. Very cool.

If after reading this, you think I'm just spouting hot air, give these sets a go:

Espeon (F) @ Macho Brace
Trait: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Psyshock
- Trick Room
- Shadow Ball
- Baton Pass

Jirachi @ Macho Brace
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Sassy Nature (+SDef, -Spd)
- Iron Head
- Healing Wish
- U-turn
- Trick Room


But my point is that Trick Room is really, REALLY not as limited as most people seem to think. Oh and...give Druddigon a hug, he has no niche in the upper tiers anymore.

<3 Google Images

 

[NoUserName]

Yes, Macho Brace is an option buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut that pokemons lose holding Life Orb. Speaking about Life Orb, it's the best item on TR sweepers by far.

Escavalier is much better than Scizor in TR for spamming SD Megahorns from 135 Att.

 

[Lee]

"Bronzong can already use Trick Room. What good is Jirachi?"
Jirachi is in fact just as bulky as Bronzong due to it's much higher HP, but the biggest factor is U-Turn. Trick Room teams always have had the problem of blindly switching or resorting to faster Pokemon that take damage in Trick Room before they U-Turn. A Super Slow U-Turn is absolutely ideal for a Pokemon that sets up Trick Room for it's team. And that's the same reason I made mention of Espeon, Xatu, Celeb, & Meloettai; U-turn with Trick Room is very, very good.

I'm confused - being super slow means you'll be going first during Trick Room so your Espeon will effectively just be switching out with Baton Pass and then your sweeper takes a hit.

I mentioned the use of Lagging Tail on Celebi in the op, which always goes second, even during Trick Room - this allows your sweeper to get in unscathed and I think that's what you were going for? (correct me if i'm wrong of course)

As for using quicker Pokemon with a Macho Brace during Trick Room you'll usually find it's better to use a naturally slower Pokemon with an offensive item. Macho Brace Haxorus is outclassed by Choice Band Druddigon, Macho Brace PorygonZ is outclassed by Life Orb Porygon2 etc.

 

[MMX]

I feel that Trick Room is much more effective in Doubles as you don't have to waste one of the precious 5 turns to switch in a pokemon that can deal big damage under TR. I run a HailRoom team for Doubles and it is almost always a guaranteed win when I get TR up. The biggest difference is the ease of setting it up in Doubles vs. Singles. In doubles, you have the benefit of Rage Powder Amoonguss, who can survive just about any hit and allow your TR starter to set up unscathed.

 

[doughboy]

To address a few points:

"Bronzong can already use Trick Room. What good is Jirachi?"
Jirachi is in fact just as bulky as Bronzong due to it's much higher HP, but the biggest factor is U-Turn. Trick Room teams always have had the problem of blindly switching or resorting to faster Pokemon that take damage in Trick Room before they U-Turn. A Super Slow U-Turn is absolutely ideal for a Pokemon that sets up Trick Room for it's team. And that's the same reason I made mention of Espeon, Xatu, Celeb, & Meloettai; U-turn with Trick Room is very, very good.

To address the bolded point above, Whimsicott deserves the biggest mention for that role. It can set up TR freely thanks to Encore and taunt and due to its amazing speed will always be able to get the TR sweeper in safely. I actually used a made set for that for my TR team in my RMT below.

 

[alphatron]

I'll be honest. I've only ever used Macho brace on trick room rhyperior. It was used in order to feign a choice band and take out those pesky ferrothorns who would often attempt to come in on the revenge.

Lee is right though. The loss of an offensive item does hamper you pretty badly. I'll try the macho brace on some other pokemon regardless but I have my doubts.

 

[Katakiri]

I'm confused - being super slow means you'll be going first during Trick Room so your Espeon will effectively just be switching out with Baton Pass and then your sweeper takes a hit.

I mentioned the use of Lagging Tail on Celebi in the op, which always goes second, even during Trick Room - this allows your sweeper to get in unscathed and I think that's what you were going for? (correct me if i'm wrong of course)

As for using quicker Pokemon with a Macho Brace during Trick Room you'll usually find it's better to use a naturally slower Pokemon with an offensive item. Macho Brace Haxorus is outclassed by Choice Band Druddigon, Macho Brace PorygonZ is outclassed by Life Orb Porygon2 etc.

Going 1st after the Trick Room is for scouting purposes. Espeon can take a hit from whatever while it uses Trick Room and Baton Passes to a Pokemon that will resist the attack. Lagging Tail isn't good at all on Psychic-types as Tyranitar's going to take at least a bite out of you, if not two, regardless of if you switch-out into Pursuit as you'll always go last. Even in your example for Celebi, if you're staring down a Bandtar, you created a very bad situation for yourself. Taking a hit and then U-turning works for some very bulky Pokemon, but in most cases your opponent will switch-out to a Pokemon that can run through your Trick Room Pokemon no problem and you really don't want to lose a Pokemon like that and in the end, you're forced to switch-out normally anyway to at least try to avoid losing it.

Let's say you have a Jirachi out. Before the opponent even knows you have Trick Room, your opponent is going to switch in Heatran. On turn 2 this poses a problem; he now knows you're running Trick Room & lack paralysis because of it and you don't know what he's going to do the next turn. He could be Choiced (assuming no balloon), he could Sub and stall-out your Trick Room, he could do all sorts of nasty Heatran things to you OR he could predict your switch. But even in that cyclone of bad situations, by going 1st after the Trick Room, you've at least scouted one situation safely: Double Switching. You can do that with Lagging Tail too, but then you run the risk of Heatran blowing your face off with Fire Blast. And that applies to many other Pokemon.

In the end, it all comes down to the team itself. Even the Druddigon bit. Swords Dance Haxorus, Choice Band Druddigon, Choice Band Zweilous, Hone Claws Dragonite/Salamence, Work Up Hydreigon, it's all team preference I guess, but Druddigon isn't by any means the lone Dragon of Trick Room and people should be aware of that when building a team. For the most part, those were all just examples to prove a point that Macho Brace is something to be considered in Trick Room. That's why I brought it to light, I want to see what other people come up with and find what's good with Macho Brace.

 

[Showsni]

Why use Macho Brace on most of them when you can use Iron Ball? It halves your speed too, but has the bonus of grounding anything that Tricks it off of you (for instance, come in on Rotom's predicted Trick and it becomes susceptible to Earthquake). Macho Brace is better on your own flyers/levitators, of course. (You also have the option of a much more powerful Fling with Iron Ball).

 

[Pocket]

I like the Macho Brace idea, Katakiri. Macho Brace / Iron Ball Haxorus is still outclassed by Druddigon in terms of power, since the cave dragon can pack Life Orb and has Sheer Force boosted Fire Fang to break through Steel, but Haxorus's naturally high Atk + access to SDance actually makes it a surprisingly viable TR abuser. You are definitely right in claiming that there are more options to TRoom then people might expect!

I personally believe that TR Setter has an advantage in being naturally fast. Thus Espeon with 252 HP / 252+ Spe is actually good. For one, it lets Espeon check things outside of TRoom, such as HP Fire Latios, Virizion, Terrakion, and Infernape. However, as Lee pointed out, Espeon would move last in TRoom, allowing Espeon to scout AND take the hit. This will allow TR abusers to switch-in safely.

Jirachi, on the other hand, would prefer Macho Brace > Lagging Tail, because it would want to move first under Trick Room to pull off that Healing Wish to rejuvinate your LO TR abusers. Although, for Jirachi's case, I believe it's slow enough to not have Macho Brace and go with Leftovers instead.

Btw, you know what an awesome TR abuser would be? Cradaunt! Just imagine a Rain Trick Room team abusing Crawdaunt's amazing Adapatability STABs :d. As Chillarmy in the OP clearly proves, Crawdaunt under the Rain is killer. Give it the priority over other mon's moves, and it can literally sweep teams with either CB or LO. No, Azumarill is not a better Rain TR abuser, since Crawdaunt has Crunch to get past Jellicent, and it's Waterfall is actually much more powerful than Azumarill's! Crawdaunt does lack Aqua Jet, though.

 

[Jaetheho]

crawdaunt is kind of underwhleming. you dont hit hard enough with your stabs and its power is just too disappointing. so i ran an lol set with fling+iron ball (bp 260) which was still bad.

you know whats good on trick room teams? sb sharpedo. if you are in a position where you cant set up trick room, sharpedo can easily kill othe threats. it can also abuse protect to waste trick room turn

 

[Drifloon]

crawdaunt is kind of underwhleming. you dont hit hard enough with your stabs and its power is just too disappointing. so i ran an lol set with fling+iron ball (bp 260) which was still bad.

you know whats good on trick room teams? sb sharpedo. if you are in a position where you cant set up trick room, sharpedo can easily kill othe threats. it can also abuse protect to waste trick room turn

So basically Sharpedo hits harder than Crawdaunt even though Crawdaunt gets adaptability?

No.

Anyways, TR isn't as effective as it was last gen. Rain stall is much too common and really hurts TR's viability. Still, it's not terrible but I would choose other things before this.

 

[LafondaOnFire]

I'm sure the mods wouldn't want a thread for an item that's only really good for Trick Room & Gyro Ball, so I'm necroing this thread for a bit of discussion about something I've never seen anyone but myself really use or even mention and I think it's time to let the cat out of the bag so~:

Macho Brace (Cuts a Pokemon's Speed in half.)

I never see anyone running Macho Brace on a Trick Room team outside of Bronzong for Gyro Ball. The big deal about Macho Brace is that any Pokemon in the game minus the ridiculously high speed Pokemon can be a threat in Trick Room with a Macho Brace. In fact, the vast majority of all Pokemon become slower than a minimum Speed Exeggutor, which is Base 55 Speed. And by "the vast majority", I mean all Pokemon slower than Base 125. (Weavile with Macho Brace is slower than minimum Speed Exeggutor.) Base 58 Pokemon (Scrafty & Zweilous) tie with minimum Speed Ferrothorn. I've been using this tactic for a while on my Trick Room teams and it always catches people.

Some notable Pokemon that can be abused (Or better abused) in Trick Room because of Macho Brace:

Espeon
Xatu
Jirachi
Celebi
Haxorus (Sorry, Druddigon)
Dragonite (I'm REALLY sorry, Druddigon)
Salamence (Poor Druddigon...)
Kyurem (I think Druddigon needs a hug)
Hydreigon
Scizor (Escavalier's just lucky Scizor can't use it's Choice Band)
Porygon-Z
Meloetta (<3)

I don't quite get this concept... what's the point of running a moderately fast Pokemon with Macho Brace in TR when its speed is good in the first place? I find that TR is better used to abuse slower Pokemon whose sets are uncertain (due to no one running them from their speed) so the opponent is lacking prediction. Of course, this is a generalization. A great player knows common sets and how to predict.

I can't really see Espeon, Salamence, or Dragonite using Macho Brace in TR. They may much better items to be using. For example, Dragonite reaqlly needs Leftovers to help keep his HP at max for Marvel Scale. He also appreciates a Lum Berry. Espeon benefits from Light Clay and Lefties too. Specs are not common and can pack a good punch. Salamence appreciates the boost given by LO and Choice items, especially since he can run many sets, including mixed.
My point being that most of those Pokemon have better things to do than run on a TR team and be slow. They have acceptable speed in the first place and TR requires constant setting up. What if the TR users are dead? You have a very slow Dragonite to manage...

Only slower Pokemon should abuse Trick Room so they still have an item to use, or in the case of Gyro Ball users, as you said, to increase the power of Gyro Ball. My only thought is for the unpredictability aspect, but there are still better things to do.

 

[Eggbert]

I've been testing trick room recently. The great downfall is that you only have 4 attacking turns and you are really vulnerable to being destroyed by Starmie / Infernape when the turns are up. With that said, I might just run a scarfer as backup as I have been swept a sad amount of times by the last poke just after the dimensions returned to normal.

 

[Jaetheho]

So basically Sharpedo hits harder than Crawdaunt even though Crawdaunt gets adaptability?

No.

Anyways, TR isn't as effective as it was last gen. Rain stall is much too common and really hurts TR's viability. Still, it's not terrible but I would choose other things before this.

did i say sharpedo hits harder than crawdaunt?

No.

i was saying that there are times when you can set up trick room (like when a cbtar is spamming crunch) and a sharpedo can just sweep easily.

 

[Jaetheho]

I've been testing trick room recently. The great downfall is that you only have 4 attacking turns and you are really vulnerable to being destroyed by Starmie / Infernape when the turns are up. With that said, I might just run a scarfer as backup as I have been swept a sad amount of times by the last poke just after the dimensions returned to normal.

that is exactly why you need sharpedo. once trick room runs out, speedy sweepers can just sweep trick room teams, which sharpedo can stop.
with just one protect, infernape and starmie are outsped, and OHKOed by hydro pump and crunch respectively.

 

[Z-rex]

I see what you want to do katakiri but life orb or a choice item is really too helpful to forget in a TR team , we need to hit and kill fast .

and dragonite is already viable in a TR team , specially the mixed nite , he also helps to stallbreak against pesky stall teams , 80 BS isn't that high .

I'v been using haxorus and darmanitan in my TR team ,and they wreck , first because your opponent doesn't expect a TR team when he sees those pokemon in the preview , and a banded darmanitan that you can't outspeed for 3 turns is so freaking scary ,same for haxorus .

I think that nobody really reached the full potential of TR , except maybe grimm with his 4th gen team (who won a smogon tour ) , simply because building A GOOD TR team is challenging , and not easy like those cookie cutters weather team .

maybe my team in my sig from the last format can do well in the new without thundurus who was a big threat .. gotta retest it .