Ubers: Why not?

#51
I think what scares people about Ubers is the stats. You see 150 base SpA and you have no clue how hard that hits. It brings people out of their comfort zone, as they don't have any feel for what counters what. It's also why a lot of OU players can't see how you'd use OU or even UU pokemon in Ubers. They see base 150 base SpA and can't see how something like Scizor could possibly be viable.

So people assume that if they play, they'll be crushed, so they just don't start playing.
 

firecape

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#52
I think what scares people about Ubers is the stats. You see 150 base SpA and you have no clue how hard that hits. It brings people out of their comfort zone, as they don't have any feel for what counters what. It's also why a lot of OU players can't see how you'd use OU or even UU pokemon in Ubers. They see base 150 base SpA and can't see how something like Scizor could possibly be viable.

So people assume that if they play, they'll be crushed, so they just don't start playing.
That has something to do with it but I think the fact that there aren't really much people that start ubers from scratch, and go on to frequently play it. Ubers has a very small pool of consistent player. That being said those consistent players are generally pretty good. Meaning that 1 person you face in the latter 5 times in a row your first time on the uber latter destroys you, and you no longer have the desire to play ubers.

Maybe posting ubers warstorys in the regular stark mountain section would help spark a little uber activity (given they are good warstories...).
 

ginganinja

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#53
@ FireCape01

That example with peope starting ubers form scratch

That applies to yours Truely.

In all seriousness though ubers for me, was very fun to get into. Like I stated, I built one team and that went pretty well. I even had some great battles with Train Man!
For me it was no harder than starting OU in fact I found it very easy to build a team in Ubers due to the small selection of Ubers within it. It was also to find out the most dangerous threats as well since everyone was stating that Kyogre rapes this team or whatever. I think some people make a poorly made team with no real ubers knowledge, fail hard and say "Well this metagame sucks".

Have a Nice day!
 
#54
Laddering on Ubers feels more like a best-of-three tourney match than a traditional ladder experience, since you can bet that you'll face someone at least three times. Between each of those matches, you can switch your team up a bit to counterteam your opponent. For example, if he has Kyogre/Kabutops, slide Groudon in over your Lead Dialga for a bit of fun. If his Latios is being a ho, but he has no potent physical setup sweepers, maybe a TWave Blissey could be just what your team needs.

Sounds fun and easy, until you realize that your opponent is probably doing the same.
 

shrang

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#55
This probably has been mentioned before, but the lack of balance in the Ubers metagame might throw people off as well. Those playing OU would play a metagame where everything's balanced, you know what to switch into what (Although this may not apply to Salamence). Suddenly, you go into Ubers, and you have no idea what to do when you see something like Dialga, since it can do so many things and if you make the wrong move, you can be utterly screwed.

Although, this is probably something I don't agree with the rest of the crowd I guess. Ubers is hella fun, which shows a balanced metagame does not necessarily correlate to a fun one.
 
#56
the learning curve thing is baloney. I suck at OU and UU achieveing 1430 and 1450 max in those recpectively. However in Ubers i once had 3 alts in the top 10 all over 1650 CRE. Ubers is easy as long as you just have a solid team and dont play like crap
 

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#57
the learning curve thing is baloney. I suck at OU and UU achieveing 1430 and 1450 max in those recpectively. However in Ubers i once had 3 alts in the top 10 all over 1650 CRE. Ubers is easy as long as you just have a solid team and dont play like crap
How do you know what a good team is when you just started and your facing a person that has months of experience? No one ever told you that Deoxy-a cant really sweep efficiently due to the fact it dies to any priority/ scarfed pokemon.
 

firecape

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#59
Actually, the analysis did, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, can't someone tutor you on Ubers in Battling 101? That's most people start metagames, right?

EDIT: It does.

You misunderstand me. If you are just starting a new metagame most people dont say "Ok im going to go research sweepers to see what the best for the current metagame is" a new person would most likely throw 6 pokemon together and just get destroyed. And the draw of Deoxys-A's 180 base stats is a draw.
 
#60
Actually, the analysis did, if I'm not mistaken.

Also, can't someone tutor you on Ubers in Battling 101? That's most people start metagames, right?

EDIT: It does.
Yeah, you can sign up in the tutoring program thread for it. I'm getting tutored right now, and it's a fun metagame to start with. But as said, most people new to the metagame just through a bunch of pokemon together and get stomped (me before tutoring). I just grab 6 pokemon with decent syenergy when I first started, got stomped, then stopped until I got into tutoring (where I've gotten a good bit better :D).
 
#61
look at usage stats. throw together a cookie cutter team of deoxys-e lead, kyogre, dialga, groudon, mewtwo, giratina-O. (or some other random combination) practice. of course you wont do too well but after 5 games you should know strong/weak points of the team. edit the team and voila.

since there arent many pokemon commonly used in ubers its pretty easy to get to know
 
#62
look at usage stats. throw together a cookie cutter team of deoxys-e lead, kyogre, dialga, groudon, mewtwo, giratina-O. (or some other random combination) practice. of course you wont do too well but after 5 games you should know strong/weak points of the team. edit the team and voila.

since there arent many pokemon commonly used in ubers its pretty easy to get to know
Cookie cutter teams have an extremely basic strategy implemented, such as a Ray sweep. That team has no strategy. If one is uneducated about the metagame, how can they realize what's wrong with their team, especially if they don't know what common spreads are. There aren't too many commonly used pokemon, however, the ones that are commonly used are very diverse, and can easily surprise a noob. For example as a noob, I was surprised and swept by BU Dialga, which I had no idea could run BU effectively. Looking at base stats and usage stats isn't enough for a noobie usually.
 
#63
Yeah, the uber metagame wields so many surprises, as every Pokemon may be used. And if you'd like to use a specific Pokemon in ubers, you'll have to arrange your moves to deal with the metagame, which is quite different from the rest.

The main reason why the uber metagame is held back, is the lack of players. Many assume that it requires little effort using the strongest of Pokemon. That is wrong in many cases. To give a general idea why the metagame is not as popular as compared to OU, or UU, picture this: So many people use Scizor in OU, it's baffling. And when a noob looks at the Shoddy Battle statistics, he or she almost immediatly considers a Scizor on his/her team. Why? Because it's the most used. So, in other words, one looks at which metagame is played most. That's OU, so (s)he will probably play that, and ignore the uber metagame altogether. But some players somehow come to notice that metagame, and curiosity is what caused some to play the metagame.

So, if something were to promote the uber metagame, and the number of people playing it increases, more people will play. It's as simple as that, but the problem is - how do you get those people to join in the first place?

Perhaps if there were more tutors teaching ubers, then more people would learn and play. However, how will we get those tutors? Maybe some dedicated uber players can. But for now, we'll have to wait and see.
 
#64
I've actually been wanting to try Ubers for a while now, especially since I'm RNGing legends in-game (I've got a flawless Timid Darkrai I'm dying to take for a spin).
The reason I haven't really jumped on board yet is because of the lack of players and because I honestly have no idea how to go about starting Ubers, and don't really feel like reading a ton of guides or jumping straight in without a clue.

If I can find a tutor to show me the ropes and help me build a team, then I'll be much more interested in putting the time into it. Until that happens, though, I'll stick to OverUsed, where I know what I'm doing.
 
#65
I've actually been wanting to try Ubers for a while now, especially since I'm RNGing legends in-game (I've got a flawless Timid Darkrai I'm dying to take for a spin).
The reason I haven't really jumped on board yet is because of the lack of players and because I honestly have no idea how to go about starting Ubers, and don't really feel like reading a ton of guides or jumping straight in without a clue.

If I can find a tutor to show me the ropes and help me build a team, then I'll be much more interested in putting the time into it. Until that happens, though, I'll stick to OverUsed, where I know what I'm doing.
The reasons you've stated, is one that an average player would state. Most don't take the time to read long guildes, and don't feel like jumping in the metagame without a clue. OU is simply home to many players and they just don't feel like moving.

The rise of uber tutors may also promote the uber metagame.
 
#66
I'm not sure about anyone else, but for me, I have no difficulty hitting the leaderboard. I only recently took up shoddy in the last week, and Ubers in only the last 3 days, which has become my favoured Metagame. I already have 1 alt, Twinks, sitting at 16th position with 1600+ CRE. Heck, even my test account is doing well, and I only use that when I'm testing gimmicky things, such as Ho-oh lead (I figured Sacred Fire could Ruin Deoxys' Sash, threaten Scizor/Forry, etc, but enough about that).

IMO, aside from the major time lag, and the constant repetition of the same 2-3 opponents if your lucky (which I enjoy as the rematchs are quite fun, somewhat intimate), I believe there are two main factors that influence the relative unpopularity of Ubers.

Firstly, theres the centralisation. While I agree, that plenty more things viable in Ubers than people give Credit for, most people still probably think that ONLY Ubers are viable, and for anyone who has scrolled down Scizor's page, maybe Scizor alone as a Non-Uber, aside from the obvious Blissey. That being said, once you understand that many OU, and even lower pokemon can fill niche roles in Ubers, one has to understand that these niche roles, while taking the newbie completely by storm, an experienced player generally knows exactly what something will do when it shows up. For instance, I played a guy today, who was suprised to see Ludicolo in Uber play, after hit lead T-Wave Kyogre killed my Darkrai. He T-Waved, expecting some sort of swift swimmer, and I Leech Seeded. He had absolutely no idea what it would do, so I sat there Leech Seed stalling him and eating his Thunders, until I grass knot, and it dies. An OU or UU player sees Ludicolo as potent rain sweeper, an Uber veteran sees it as a counter to Kyogre and a makeshift Special Wall in rain.

Secondly, people don't understand that in Ubers, unless you go out of your way to find a counter, such as Ludicolo for Kyogre, there are pretty much no Counters to anything, given the ridiculously powerful stats, and insane versatility of any Uber not named Wobbuffet. Technically Kyogre's "counters" can't even counter it reliably. With SR and SPikes up, Ludicolo may be unable to handle 2 Specs thunders, especially if it gets paraylsed and can't protect. With SR up, Scarf Kyogre's Ice Beam can 2HKO all but the bulkiest Latias before they can recover or Thunder it. Specially Defensive Dialga can be 3HKOed and outsped by Kyogre's Surf and it cannot withstand Specs Waterspout. What I'm trying to say, Ubers is about countering a few things, and Checking as many threats as possible, a concept with OU and UU players do not understand well. The closest thing that can perform an Uberesque single turn set up and Sweep in OU is Empoleon, and its been the subject of many a Warstory, simply because its rare in OU for a single pokemon to be able to tear its way through an entire team. People don't like a meta where a single misplay or miss can cost you a match. Half of the stuff in Ubers can sweep you in a moments notice, and a newbie will have no idea how to handle this.

IMO, the best way to popularise Ubers is more warstories, and to use tools such as the Smog to draw attention. IMO, updating the analysis of pokemon semi-viable in Ubers might catch a few people's eyes. I have to admit I was almost suprised when I didn't see an Ubers analysis for Foretress (granted, its pretty much the same thing as the Specially Defensive set).
 
#67
Ubers is boring, and most people there lack experience at all. Heck my extremely shitty gimmick team with is 33 and 0 in ubers, it involves 2 FEAR and a Shedninja, go figure. Not to mention as the OP says, that you battle the same person over and over again. I mean it can really make the game a drag. And even when there are a few more people on, you still constantly battle the same people, you need like 10 people before it gets fun.

Should I also mention how boring it can get? There are what, 15 or so pokemon you are likely to see in ubers, almost everything else is a gimmick, and a lot less pokemon are viable in terms of reliability, thanks to the sheer power of the Uber pokemon. Whereas in OU, there is much less centralisation, and much more pokemon are viable, and unless you are playing some incredibly unoriginal people, you aren't going to be facing the same 3 or 4 pokemon every battle.

You also have a lot more UU/NU viability in OU, making it a much more fun tier IMO, because UU/NUs are not shunned purely because their stats are too low.
 

shrang

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#68
Ubers is actually quite fun when you actually start off, but 10 matches in, you'll hate how boring it is.

Heck my extremely shitty gimmick team with is 33 and 0 in ubers, it involves 2 FEAR and a Shedninja, go figure.
When do you play?? At least half the people I play have some skill (At least enough to get past 2 FEAR and Shedinja, I assure you).
 

ginganinja

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#69
Ubers is boring, and most people there lack experience at all. Heck my extremely shitty gimmick team with is 33 and 0 in ubers, it involves 2 FEAR and a Shedninja, go figure. Not to mention as the OP says, that you battle the same person over and over again. I mean it can really make the game a drag. And even when there are a few more people on, you still constantly battle the same people, you need like 10 people before it gets fun.

Should I also mention how boring it can get? There are what, 15 or so pokemon you are likely to see in ubers, almost everything else is a gimmick, and a lot less pokemon are viable in terms of reliability, thanks to the sheer power of the Uber pokemon. Whereas in OU, there is much less centralisation, and much more pokemon are viable, and unless you are playing some incredibly unoriginal people, you aren't going to be facing the same 3 or 4 pokemon every battle.

You also have a lot more UU/NU viability in OU, making it a much more fun tier IMO, because UU/NUs are not shunned purely because their stats are too low.

O.k Clearly you are not makeing the ubers ladder anymore enjoyable by running a FEAR gimick team but thats your choice I guess.

Finding an opponient is tough but a ladder has to start somewhere and I guess we all have to stick with it and eventually more people will join in (hopefully).

Your point about ubers being boring is incorrect. You may find it boring due to you running a FEAR team but whatever. I also think that you are comparing the Uber metagame with the OU metagame in a playstyle sense. The OU metagame is much more diverse than ubers by having a wider rage of commonly used pokemon featuring in teams. This means that team match ups are more diverse. Ubers is not like this. It has a smaller range of commonly used pokemon available than in OU. It, however, is more enjoyable in other ways. In OU there is (argubly) nothing broken. In Ubers this is not true. Authough the number of different pokemon seen is different Uber pokemon have such a wide range of movesets which can rip apart a team. Ubers is exhilerating in that there are no real counters to uber pokemon which mean that you have to predict well to ensure that threats can be taken care of. OU is not like this. Most pokemon can be countered in OU and therefore it is harder to pull of sweeps against teams in OU. Also most OU pokemon tend to have 1 or 2 sets used in the metagame. When I see a Lucario I can assume that it is likely SD and if I see a Salamence I can assuem its either DD or Mixmence. This is different in Ubers where diversity amoung pokemon is less seen while the diverse movesets which many ubers run is what makes ubers fun. Rayquaza has many movsets such as Mixed, SD or DD. As far as I know there is no real pokemon that can counter all of these sets at once. Groudon can handle SD and DD but loses to Mixed. Scarf Palkia can beat DD but loses to SD etc. Dialga is another great example of a dangerously powerful diverse pokemon. It can hit hard from either end of the spectrum meaning that its hard to find decent switch ins to them. My point is that its nigh impossiable to counter the many uber threats making it very simple to sweep teams in ubers than it is in OU. To my mind Ubers is very cut throat with few allowances for mistakes.

You have already touched on how "boring" Ubers is by stating that there is little difference in uber teams. This is true to an extent. However newer players will often stick to sole Uber teams. My own Uber teams will often carry at least 1 or occasionally 2 or 3 OU pokemon. I guess I am trying to say that there is no barrier to what you can put in your uber team. People think that they can only use Uber pokemon in Ubers where they can in fact run Salamence, Scizor or Jirachi in an Uber teams as well.

Your last point is that UU and NU pokemon have more viability in OU than in Ubers. this is utter BS. I hardly see any UU or NU pokemon in OU unless I am playing a rain teeam. In Ubers NU pokemon such as Parasect (thanks Genny) and even Aridos are viable due to the Metagame full of "broken" pokemon. I had an entertaining match with a Sub Seed Ludicolo which was very annoying to take down and took Dialga and Scizor to finally beat it. My point is that NU and UU pokemon are very Viable in Ubers but many people lack the confidence to try them out and "think outside" the Uber tier. Also UU/NU pokemon are sometimes used by the top players in Ubers where in OU I believe that more standard pokemon are used by the OU top battlers. In conclusion UU/NU pokemon can be better used in Ubers than in OU.

Have a Nice Day!

EDIT wow that was long
 
#70
Gotta say, I just played my first two Uber battles (Both against Hokage Rain) and it is an AWESOME metagame. I lost twice, but VERY narrowly. I love it.

I'm going to edit this to elaborate on my Ubers experience so-far, from this Sub-Forum, RMTs and actually battling.

True, there are not as many Pokemon running around in Ubers. Pretty much every team runs either Groudon or Kyogre. Some teams run both. But the variety comes from the fact that each Pokemon has five sets and does all of them well. That creates some variety, if it isn't as noticeable at first. Also, its interesting to note that some Pokemon in the NU tier are frightening adversaries in the Uber tier. Shedinja counters some threats VERY well, for example, and Parasect is a pretty beast SpecsOgre counter. OU Pokemon are also used, like T-Tar, Scizor and Forretress. Garchomp is also just a fun Pokemon to play with and against, and I must say Ubers in general is a lot of fun. More people would really take it a long way, though, and I really enjoy it. Ubers is awesome.
 
#71
gen 5 is coming up, this means more ubers for us to abuse right? sad we got so few uber pokemons. i know we can use pokes from tiers below but a lot of persons think they will just be outclassed or just plain fail. plus the fact people are scared of no-counter pokemons....i think i might start doing some uber warstorys or RMTs if only to boost the tier reputation....
 
#72
I've played a bit on the ubers ladder... there's a little more you need to know than basic type synergy to have a functional team. You need to take a little more into account in team-building, and that's probably not attractive to most people.
 
#73
Very few Pokemon are uncounterable in Ubers, but it depends how far you are willing to go to counter them. Scarf Jirachi counters Rayquaza, but you could do almost as well with a Lugia. Quagsire beats all Kyogre sets, but Latias, Latios, and Palkia do almost as good a job. Then we get into really versatile Pokemon like Dialga and Palkia, who can hit hard from both ends of the spectrum and run a variety of sets, but each set is entirely counterable, and prediction/guesswork wins games. It's a lot more like dealing with Jirachi in OU more than it is dealing with some god Pokemon.

Also, I would say that the diversity of teams is greater in Ubers than in OU. So many styles of teams are viable. For example,

Tyranitar/Garchomp
Forretress/Groudon/Ho-oh
Forretress/CM Giratina
Kyogre/Kingdra
Deoxys-A/Wobbuffet/DD Rayquaza

all constitute viable basis' for building teams. The important thing is to pick a core and work from it.

Just remember these 2 things...

1) Lugia is overrated. SR weak, bait for Forretress and Wobbuffet, setup fodder for many special attackers. Make sure you have a good reason for using Lugia on your team.

2) Many Pokemon that don't do so well in OU shine in Ubers. For example, many experienced stall players employ Jumpluff on their teams as an emergency check on Pokemon such as Darkrai: if you get in on a Sub or an NP, Encore means Darkrai is gone. Also Sleep Powder is cool. Things like Cloyster makes a decent lead. Hell, Primeape is decent in Ubers just to deal with Darkrai, as Quagsire is good since it checks Kyogre 100%. The sheer centralization of Ubers leads to some odd things arising to check the threats.
 
#74
a pokemon counter a set but dont counter another. scarf jirachi can counter DD and SD(As long it dont got yache) but get ohkoed by fire blast from the mixed. groudon also dont like draco meteor but is a great counter to DD and non-outrage SD. latias/latios can counter kyogre as long they can predict because specs ice beam 2hko both but they counter all other kyogre sets well, heck i would even go and run hp grass kyogre if quagmire became a standard counter. this goes for all ubers.

in the end you can counter each set but you must find out what set he is running first and by that time you probably lost a pokemon due to bad prediction. that is why most ubers dont got full counters and this is IMO one of the main reasons ubers is not popular: people feel unsafe knowing 1 single bad prediction can cost them the game. no one can deny ubers is full of versality and that is one of the main reasons i love the tier so much.
 
#75
Mixed Rayquazas rarely use Fire Blast first turn, it's always Draco Meteor to catch a Groudon or Lugia on the switch-in. It's really all about prediction, since no Pokemon perfectly counters another: there's always a set, no matter how obscure, that a dude can use to beat its counters.
 

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