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Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion
- Thread starter Hootie
- Start date
Salamence Analysis
Maybe you can remove this sentence because DD+ Z-Fly and better speed tier is the main niche Salamence have in the meta and Salamence need the Z move to snowball with Moxie. You can replace it with Specs Flash Cannon or add another lure to Landorus-T, such a Shuca Berry Koko or something like that
Maybe you can remove this sentence because DD+ Z-Fly and better speed tier is the main niche Salamence have in the meta and Salamence need the Z move to snowball with Moxie. You can replace it with Specs Flash Cannon or add another lure to Landorus-T, such a Shuca Berry Koko or something like that
I've already asked QC about this and they're deliberating on it pretty sure.
It's pretty niche and isn't really usable outside of a very specific playstyle, so I think it's fine just staying in OO personally, but I'm not sure about QC.
If you guys wanna try to reserve an analysis that QC hasn't put up yet, the reservation thread is probably a better place to ask btw.
I want to mention something about the Ditto analysis that seems they forgot to mention, regarding Ditto's low speed. It's not only necessary for mirror matchup, it can come in handy for other cases, especially at the start of the battle or in a double KO, where it can make some abilities trigger before the transformation, most notably Intimidate:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352641
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352642
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352641
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-352642
I was checking out the Azelf Analysis, and I think I spotted a mistake
Under Checks and Counters, it says this
"Fast Taunt Users: Ash-Greninja, Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T, and Prankster Taunt users can use Taunt on Azelf before it uses Taunt on them, rendering it near-useless."
Has Ash-Greninja ever viably run taunt ever? I don't think regular Greninja runs it either. Its own analysis doesn't mention it, so I think this is a mistake. And for that reason, has Tornadus Therian ever run Taunt at all anytime in Gen 7 OU, I know that regular Tornadus does, though it isn't used in OU, so I think that's also a mistake
I know that Azelf is incredibly low priority, but these mistake bugs me, so hopefully someone can fix it.
Under Checks and Counters, it says this
"Fast Taunt Users: Ash-Greninja, Tapu Koko, Tornadus-T, and Prankster Taunt users can use Taunt on Azelf before it uses Taunt on them, rendering it near-useless."
Has Ash-Greninja ever viably run taunt ever? I don't think regular Greninja runs it either. Its own analysis doesn't mention it, so I think this is a mistake. And for that reason, has Tornadus Therian ever run Taunt at all anytime in Gen 7 OU, I know that regular Tornadus does, though it isn't used in OU, so I think that's also a mistake
I know that Azelf is incredibly low priority, but these mistake bugs me, so hopefully someone can fix it.
Felixx
I'm back.
OU Stallbreaker Gliscor's set details have a minor mistake:
"244 HP EVs increase Gliscor's general bulk and maximize the amount of HP recovered from Poison Heal. 152 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature allow Gliscor to outspeed Adamant Zygarde and both formes of Gyarados. If this benchmark is not necessary, 112 Speed EVs should be used to outspeed Timid Heatran and Jolly Hoopa-U instead. 44 Defense EVs allow Gliscor to survive a Play Rough followed by a Sucker Punch from Mega Mawile. The rest of the EVs are poured into Special Defense to allow Gliscor to be as specially bulky as possible and handle the likes of Latios, Landorus-T, and Tapu Koko more easily."
Actually, you need Jolly 136 Speed EVs for Timid and Jolly Hoopa-U, 112 Speed is only enough for Timid Tran.
"244 HP EVs increase Gliscor's general bulk and maximize the amount of HP recovered from Poison Heal. 152 Speed EVs with a Jolly nature allow Gliscor to outspeed Adamant Zygarde and both formes of Gyarados. If this benchmark is not necessary, 112 Speed EVs should be used to outspeed Timid Heatran and Jolly Hoopa-U instead. 44 Defense EVs allow Gliscor to survive a Play Rough followed by a Sucker Punch from Mega Mawile. The rest of the EVs are poured into Special Defense to allow Gliscor to be as specially bulky as possible and handle the likes of Latios, Landorus-T, and Tapu Koko more easily."
Actually, you need Jolly 136 Speed EVs for Timid and Jolly Hoopa-U, 112 Speed is only enough for Timid Tran.
On Tapu Koko's special Z-move set, it repeatedly mentions being able to kill Tapu Bulu with +1 Twinkle Tackle . This is only true for offensive Bulu, AV bulu comfortably eats. The ubiquity of AV Bulu really should have this removed from the analysis imo. AV Bulu also needs to be added to checks and counters asap.
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 207-244 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252 SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 207-244 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
I posted in the forums a month ago regarding an inventive set for toxapex but The Creative thread isn't up so I'm going to post it here and hope someone directs me to the right spot.
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rate-my-toxapex-wall-breaker-set.3628299/#post-7681408
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/rate-my-toxapex-wall-breaker-set.3628299/#post-7681408
The thread ur looking for is this one: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/usm-creative-underrated-sets-v2.3628431/
I think regular gyarados needs a revamp.
A few meta trends make it needed because of things like the rise of AV bulu and Amoonguss, also the rising heatran, zapdos, which can be melted by stone edge and kartana locked in something else than lead blade.
EDIT: I would like do it you allow me
A few meta trends make it needed because of things like the rise of AV bulu and Amoonguss, also the rising heatran, zapdos, which can be melted by stone edge and kartana locked in something else than lead blade.
EDIT: I would like do it you allow me
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Felixx
I'm back.
Thoughts on OU M-Aero analysis:
"Tapu Fini and Mega Aerodactyl have good synergy between them, as the former is able to switch into strong Water-types like Choice Specs Greninja and Ash-Greninja, "
- Team Options
Since when has regular Greninja utilized specs?
"and Celesteela can use Mega Aerodactyl as setup fodder"
"Choice Scarf users such as Nihilego,"
- Checks and Counters
Offensive Steela isn't even ranked as a set at the moment, and Kart might be better example as a choice scarf user. The analysis is also a pretty outdated overall, definitely needs a proper revamp since the mon is still ranked.
"Tapu Fini and Mega Aerodactyl have good synergy between them, as the former is able to switch into strong Water-types like Choice Specs Greninja and Ash-Greninja, "
- Team Options
Since when has regular Greninja utilized specs?
"and Celesteela can use Mega Aerodactyl as setup fodder"
"Choice Scarf users such as Nihilego,"
- Checks and Counters
Offensive Steela isn't even ranked as a set at the moment, and Kart might be better example as a choice scarf user. The analysis is also a pretty outdated overall, definitely needs a proper revamp since the mon is still ranked.
It still uses Specs before it transforms into Ash Greninja
In Tapu Lele's Choice Scarf set I think is worth mention in moves, specifically in 4th slot the utility of Aromatherapy if played in balance, where you can find some cores like Mantine + M-Sciz + Lele, where Mantine can get toxic'ed if defog against gliscor/toxapex, or a random burn for scizor. In the same fashion of the 4th move, Nature Madness also seems a worthwhile option to chip down many foes without reliable recovery such as Heatran, AV Magearna, Ferro, Celesteela, which are commonly used as Lele switch-ins.
Something I noticed in the Tapu Bulu AV analysis: Just a small nitpick by my side^^
Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 56 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Nature's Madness
..The given EVs allow Tapu Bulu to outrun standard Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar and 2HKO Clefable with the combination of Nature's Madness and Wood Hammer while maximizing its overall bulk"
You actually don't need 60 Attack EVs to hit 62% damage, 52 Atk EVs are enough:
52+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Due to 56 EVs hitting a benchmark, increasing from 339 to 341 Attack points, 56 EVs seems to be the better option. Just dump the last 4 EVs into SpDef to give Bulu this spread: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 60 SpD / 144 Spe
Tapu Bulu @ Assault Vest
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 60 Atk / 56 SpD / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Horn Leech
- Wood Hammer
- Superpower
- Nature's Madness
..The given EVs allow Tapu Bulu to outrun standard Adamant Choice Band Tyranitar and 2HKO Clefable with the combination of Nature's Madness and Wood Hammer while maximizing its overall bulk"
You actually don't need 60 Attack EVs to hit 62% damage, 52 Atk EVs are enough:
52+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable in Grassy Terrain: 246-289 (62.4 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and Grassy Terrain recovery
Due to 56 EVs hitting a benchmark, increasing from 339 to 341 Attack points, 56 EVs seems to be the better option. Just dump the last 4 EVs into SpDef to give Bulu this spread: 248 HP / 56 Atk / 60 SpD / 144 Spe
Bulky Scarf Lando is prolly not getting its own set atm but we’ve been discussing the others and they’re likely getting a set at some point after spl
I think the Magearna analaysis needs a revamp, or at least it should be fixed to so that it doesn't mention unviable mons, irrelevant things, or constantly repeat things that are barely if at all mentioned in the analysis.
Examples of this include but aren't limited to
I probably didn't catch all the mistakes, oversights, or things that need to be mentioned, and some of the mistakes can be called petty, but yeah, somethings in this analysis need to be changed as they can be pretty confusing if you read the entire thing in depth.
Examples of this include but aren't limited to
For Assault Vest Magearna, we have things like this
Remember that Fleur Cannon still has a decent amount of power behind it, so using it does not forfeit as much momentum as one might expect it to, especially for maximum Special Attack variants.
Assault Vest Magearna never runs maximum special attack, and Maximum Special Attack Assault Vest variants are never mentioned again during the entirety of the analysis.
VoltTurn teammates are appreciated because Magearna has Volt Switch to form VoltTurn cores. Ash-Greninja, Landorus-T, and Tapu Koko are good examples
U-Turn isn't even mentioned in other options in the Ash-Greninja analysis, this should probably just be changed to Choice Scarf Greninja
Also I thinks its a crime, that its never mentioned that AV Magearna can get worn down across match after repeated hammering, which is can lead to pokemon like Tapu Lele being able to break it, which I beleive is the primary reason AV Magearna is mostly used on BO as the playstyle appreciates pivots like Magearna that can provide stops to pokemon without wasting momentum thanks to Volt Switch. Oh, and it should also be mentioned that Magearna fits best on Bulky Offence.
Now onto Shift Gear
A Shift Gear set trades Trick Room sets' bulk, power, and favorable matchup against faster Choice Scarf users such as Keldeo and Infernape for more reliability in completing a successful sweep.
So there is two problems with this. First Trick Room is mentioned last in the analysis, so this seems to be out of chronological order, which can confuse readers. Second, Infernape is no longer viable and should be removed, and Keldeo can only revenge Magearna at 60% health and only on a high roll, so I'm not sure how relevant mentioning it is.
Shift Gear boosts Magearna's Speed by two stages, allowing it to outpace everything up to Choice Scarf Nihilego. The Attack boost does not matter because Magearna is a special attacker
This isn't really a mistake, but this mention feels so abrupt, and probably could be worded better
Twinkle Tackle is a great nuke capable of blowing away Clefable, Mew, and Zapdos, without a boost. Ice Beam can be used in place of Fleur Cannon which provides Magearna with wider coverage, nailing Pokemon such as Zapdos and Landorus-T.
Twinkle Tackle can hit all the pokemon above mentioned, and just as hard as Ice Beam. I think in place of Zapdos should be Tapu Bulu, and it should be mentioned that the reason to use Ice Beam is so that you have unresisted BoltBeam coverage, while not having to waste a Z-move on those pokemon. Similarly, the phrase "without a boost" can be confusing, because Magearna isn't boosting its special attack and is faster than all the mons listed, so that phrase should probably be deleted.
Fightinium Z is a great alternative, since it capitalizes on Shift Gear's versatility, allowing Magearna to break healthy Steel-types
This one bugs me, because it should be on the actual set, because it gets consistently mentioned throughout the rest of the analysis.
It isn't a mistake though
Shift Gear sets can be used as mid-game breakers because of their use of Speed investment and unlimited turns for sweeping, unlike Trick Room.
Out of chronological order again
Double Dance Magearna
Alolan Ninetales deserves a special mention because of the incredible support it provides in Aurora Veil, which gives Magearna a much easier time setting up and makes it an even deadlier threat.
Not a mistake, but dual screens Tapu Koko should be mentioned here as well, due to being similar, but I can see why its not mentioned
OTR Magearna
Aura Sphere is a 100% accurate Fighting-type move, but it requires its targets such as Ferrothorn and Magnezone to be at a low amount of health before it can KO them.
This one annoys me, because this one is in the moves section but isn't mentioned in the set, unlike Fightinium on Shift Gear which was also not on the set but was on Set Details instead. The analysis needs to make up its mind on where these type of things get mentioned
but it will find itself useless in certain matches depending on its moveset, as it's walled by Pokemon such as Roost Volcarona, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor
Similar to Ash-Greninja and U-Turn, Roost is never mentioned ever in Volcarona's analysis
Other Options
None I can spot
Checks And Counters
Jirachi can effectively defeat every variant of Magearna outside of the rare Never-Ending Nightmare set.
Why does Never Ending bother getting a mention if it isn't even mentioned in Other Options. Not really a mistake though
Fire-types:
Long Story short, M-Camel and Charizard X should be mentioned in this section
Ground-types:
Similarly, Mamoswine deserves a mention here, since its now OU.
Remember that Fleur Cannon still has a decent amount of power behind it, so using it does not forfeit as much momentum as one might expect it to, especially for maximum Special Attack variants.
Assault Vest Magearna never runs maximum special attack, and Maximum Special Attack Assault Vest variants are never mentioned again during the entirety of the analysis.
VoltTurn teammates are appreciated because Magearna has Volt Switch to form VoltTurn cores. Ash-Greninja, Landorus-T, and Tapu Koko are good examples
U-Turn isn't even mentioned in other options in the Ash-Greninja analysis, this should probably just be changed to Choice Scarf Greninja
Also I thinks its a crime, that its never mentioned that AV Magearna can get worn down across match after repeated hammering, which is can lead to pokemon like Tapu Lele being able to break it, which I beleive is the primary reason AV Magearna is mostly used on BO as the playstyle appreciates pivots like Magearna that can provide stops to pokemon without wasting momentum thanks to Volt Switch. Oh, and it should also be mentioned that Magearna fits best on Bulky Offence.
Now onto Shift Gear
A Shift Gear set trades Trick Room sets' bulk, power, and favorable matchup against faster Choice Scarf users such as Keldeo and Infernape for more reliability in completing a successful sweep.
So there is two problems with this. First Trick Room is mentioned last in the analysis, so this seems to be out of chronological order, which can confuse readers. Second, Infernape is no longer viable and should be removed, and Keldeo can only revenge Magearna at 60% health and only on a high roll, so I'm not sure how relevant mentioning it is.
Shift Gear boosts Magearna's Speed by two stages, allowing it to outpace everything up to Choice Scarf Nihilego. The Attack boost does not matter because Magearna is a special attacker
This isn't really a mistake, but this mention feels so abrupt, and probably could be worded better
Twinkle Tackle is a great nuke capable of blowing away Clefable, Mew, and Zapdos, without a boost. Ice Beam can be used in place of Fleur Cannon which provides Magearna with wider coverage, nailing Pokemon such as Zapdos and Landorus-T.
Twinkle Tackle can hit all the pokemon above mentioned, and just as hard as Ice Beam. I think in place of Zapdos should be Tapu Bulu, and it should be mentioned that the reason to use Ice Beam is so that you have unresisted BoltBeam coverage, while not having to waste a Z-move on those pokemon. Similarly, the phrase "without a boost" can be confusing, because Magearna isn't boosting its special attack and is faster than all the mons listed, so that phrase should probably be deleted.
Fightinium Z is a great alternative, since it capitalizes on Shift Gear's versatility, allowing Magearna to break healthy Steel-types
This one bugs me, because it should be on the actual set, because it gets consistently mentioned throughout the rest of the analysis.
It isn't a mistake though
Shift Gear sets can be used as mid-game breakers because of their use of Speed investment and unlimited turns for sweeping, unlike Trick Room.
Out of chronological order again
Double Dance Magearna
Alolan Ninetales deserves a special mention because of the incredible support it provides in Aurora Veil, which gives Magearna a much easier time setting up and makes it an even deadlier threat.
Not a mistake, but dual screens Tapu Koko should be mentioned here as well, due to being similar, but I can see why its not mentioned
OTR Magearna
Aura Sphere is a 100% accurate Fighting-type move, but it requires its targets such as Ferrothorn and Magnezone to be at a low amount of health before it can KO them.
This one annoys me, because this one is in the moves section but isn't mentioned in the set, unlike Fightinium on Shift Gear which was also not on the set but was on Set Details instead. The analysis needs to make up its mind on where these type of things get mentioned
but it will find itself useless in certain matches depending on its moveset, as it's walled by Pokemon such as Roost Volcarona, Celesteela, and Mega Scizor
Similar to Ash-Greninja and U-Turn, Roost is never mentioned ever in Volcarona's analysis
Other Options
None I can spot
Checks And Counters
Jirachi can effectively defeat every variant of Magearna outside of the rare Never-Ending Nightmare set.
Why does Never Ending bother getting a mention if it isn't even mentioned in Other Options. Not really a mistake though
Fire-types:
Long Story short, M-Camel and Charizard X should be mentioned in this section
Ground-types:
Similarly, Mamoswine deserves a mention here, since its now OU.
I probably didn't catch all the mistakes, oversights, or things that need to be mentioned, and some of the mistakes can be called petty, but yeah, somethings in this analysis need to be changed as they can be pretty confusing if you read the entire thing in depth.
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I came across something in the Mega-Scizor analysis which confused me a lot. It's about Scizors speed investment:
60 Speed EVs are needed so Mega Scizor can U-turn on Assault Vest Magnezone, or at least hit it with Knock Off first
Assault Vest Magnezone doesn't have it's own analysis at the moment, and Scizor can't outspeed any of the current represented Magnezone spreads, so the Speed investment seems out of place in the current metagame.
60 Speed EVs are needed so Mega Scizor can U-turn on Assault Vest Magnezone, or at least hit it with Knock Off first
Assault Vest Magnezone doesn't have it's own analysis at the moment, and Scizor can't outspeed any of the current represented Magnezone spreads, so the Speed investment seems out of place in the current metagame.