I found 15 mentions of Zygarde in Jirachi's analysis, 2 mentions in Mega Lopunny's analysis, 13 in Mew's analysis, 2 in Mimikyu's, 2 in Pelipper's, 3 in Mega Pinsir's, 3 in Rotom-W's, 12 in Mega Scizor's, 8 in Serperior's, 6 in Tapu Fini's, 5 in Victini's, 7 in Zapdos's and a single mention each in the analyses of Mega Sableye, Skarmory, Mega Swampert and Tapu Koko. And that's only the Pokemon that are OU by usage...
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Ultra Sun & Moon OU Analysis Discussion
- Thread starter Hootie
- Start date
We're working on it, please give us some time to get it all done.
No, because outspeeding Jolly Mega Mawile and -1 Choice Band Victini are far too niche benchmarks. Additionally, the bulk investment is actually very notable, particularly on CB Tyranitar, which allows it to live a +1 Bug Buzz from Volcarona.
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Now mons which arent OU by usage:
10x Slowbro
7x Buzzwole, Thundurus-T
6x Mega Aggron, Mega Camerupt, Pyukumuku
5x Amoonguss, Cresselia, Mega Heracross
4x Avalugg, Azumarill, Hippowdon, Mega Manectric, Scolipede, Terrakion, Thundurus
3x Alomomola, Bisharp, Mega Gallade, Gengar, Alolan Golem, Mantine, Alolan Ninetales, Quagsire, Salamence, Weavile
2x Ditto, Mamoswine, Manaphy, Porygon-Z, Shuckle, Mega Venusaur
1x Mega Aerodactyl, Dragonite, Hydreigon, Kingdra, Kyurem, Alolan Marowak, Moltres, Alolan Muk, Nidoking, Qwilfish, Ribombee, Stakataka, Suicune, Volcanion
I love Ctrl+F
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/tornadus-therian/
Assault Vest Bulu is mentioned several times, should it be changed to SpDef Bulu? AV Bulu is practically non-existant
Assault Vest Bulu is mentioned several times, should it be changed to SpDef Bulu? AV Bulu is practically non-existant
Um that really doesn't define why they shouldn't be mentioned lol.
They talks about mentions of Zygarde.
As helpful as it is to point out the Zygarde mentions in analyses, please keep in mind that it takes time to remove (and sometimes reword) analyses that have banned Pokemon in their names. We appreciate the folks that are pointing it out, but please give the OU C&C team some time to remove these mentions first (roughly a week to two weeks). Afterwards, if there are additional mentions of the Pokemon you're free to let us know.
Thank you for your patience in these trying times.
Thank you for your patience in these trying times.
All Zygarde mentions should be deleted from the on-site analyses. Special thanks to Mellow and Ropalme1914 for helping me out.
If you find any Zygarde mentions that were missed, please point them out in this thread.
If you find any Zygarde mentions that were missed, please point them out in this thread.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/tapu_koko/ - Zygarde mention 1x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/porygon-z/ Zygarde mention 2x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/quagsire/ou/ Zygarde mention 1x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/salamence/ou/ Zygarde mention 3x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/shuckle/ou/ Zygarde mention 2x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/stakataka/ou/ Zygarde mention 1x (Though since Stakataka is UR, should probs be removed entirely)
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/zeraora/ou/ Just mentioning that since Zeraora is UR, should probs be removed
Other than that can't find any zygarde mentions. great work!
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/porygon-z/ Zygarde mention 2x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/quagsire/ou/ Zygarde mention 1x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/salamence/ou/ Zygarde mention 3x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/shuckle/ou/ Zygarde mention 2x
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/stakataka/ou/ Zygarde mention 1x (Though since Stakataka is UR, should probs be removed entirely)
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/zeraora/ou/ Just mentioning that since Zeraora is UR, should probs be removed
Other than that can't find any zygarde mentions. great work!
I've removed the remaining Zygarde mentions and deleted Stakataka and Zeraora's OU analysis.
MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
On porygon-z analysis:
In top-level description, should maybe talk about how porygon-z has a niche on ho as a boosting "electric" (after conversion) type. water type haze mons like toxapex and steel floaty things like celesteela are annoying af for p much every standard screens team. the fact that zygarde left (who was originally a p mandatory staple for handling toxapex and celesteela among other things) makes this niche even more relevant. it certainly feels more useful now as opposed to being a tbh just-for-fun option.
This doesn't make sense, and is pretty poorly written even disregarding the error. The analysis as a whole is really low-quality tbh, and it should be redone entirely. I don't have time to look at the top-level description/checks and counters atm, but here's a quick draft of a revised set analysis. I've also added the 4 subheadings which were originally missing:
Z-Conversion boosts each stat by one stage and changes the user's current type to match the type of its first move. Running Thunderbolt in the first slot grants Porygon-Z an Electric-type after setup and, as a result, access to an Adaptability-boosted STAB Thunderbolt. This move is immensely powerful, being able to 1HKO Zapdos, Magearna, Tapu Koko, and offensive Heatran and 2HKO bulky threats such as Unaware Clefable and Kyurem-B. Moreover, a strong Electric-type STAB lets Porygon-Z easily handle Haze Toxapex, Pyukumuku, Celesteela, and other walls that give standard hyper-offense major trouble, especially after Zygarde's ban. Ice Beam rounds out Porygon-Z's coverage, allowing it to hit most Electric-immune threats super-effectively. Note that a neutral Adaptability-boosted Thunderbolt is about as strong as a 2x super-effective coverage move, so it's futile to run alternatives that don't specifically target Electric immunities. Consequently, Recover is the most optimal move in the last slot; it helps Porygon-Z mitigate chip damage and maximizes the utility granted by Porygon-Z's bulk with +1 Defense and Aurora Veil support.
208 Speed EVs allow boosted Porygon-Z to barely outspeed 196 Spe Choice Scarf Landorus-Therian and Mega Alakazam. Full Special Attack investment lets Porygon-Z hit as hard as possible, and the leftover EVs are dumped into HP to maximize bulk. Nasty Plot is an option over Recover to further increase Porygon-Z's wallbreaking power, but the boost suffers from diminishing returns when stacked with Z-Conversion. Hidden Power Grass is an option over Ice Beam or Recover to better handle Quagsire and Gastrodon, but the other two moves have greater utility overall. Substitute is another option over Recover to avoid status moves, but Porygon-Z is immune to paralysis and unbothered by the Attack drop from a burn, so it's fairly redundant.
Porygon-Z should only be run on Hyper-Offense teams with Aurora Veil or Reflect/Light Screen support. Analyze the opposing team to determine whether Porygon-Z can feasibly sweep or if you should focus on its wallbreaking capabilities. In the first case, pay close attention to potential setup opportunities, and make sure its few checks are sufficiently chipped before attempting a sweep, as Z-Conversion is a one-time move.
Aurora Veil or Reflect/Light Screen support is almost mandatory, so Ninetales and Tapu Koko are obvious companions. Tapu Koko is also notable for its ability to set up Electric Terrain, letting Porygon-Z 2HKO immense walls such as Chansey and Assault Vest Magearna. Moreover, offensive Tapu Koko can lure troublesome Porygon-Z checks such as Quagsire and Mega Venusaur with Grass Knot and Brave Bird respectively. Tapu Bulu can set Grassy Terrain, reducing the damage Porygon-Z takes from max-Speed Scarf Landorus' Earthquake and turning Hidden Power Grass into a 1HKO on Gastrodon. The passive healing helps Porygon-Z stay healthy enough to avoid being 1HKOd by a faster scarfer or powerful priority move. Tapu Lele lets Porygon-Z avoid priority altogether by setting Psychic Terrain. Stealth Rocks support is very much appreciated, as it helps Porygon-Z secure a number of important KOs.
Porygon-Z @ Normalium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Conversion
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 48 HP / 252 SpA / 208 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Recover
- Conversion
In top-level description, should maybe talk about how porygon-z has a niche on ho as a boosting "electric" (after conversion) type. water type haze mons like toxapex and steel floaty things like celesteela are annoying af for p much every standard screens team. the fact that zygarde left (who was originally a p mandatory staple for handling toxapex and celesteela among other things) makes this niche even more relevant. it certainly feels more useful now as opposed to being a tbh just-for-fun option.
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MikeDawg
Banned deucer.
also in magearna's analysis:
its a bit weird to use tangrowth as an example since tangrowth 2hkos w/ earthquake anyway, but thats w/e.
"this gets rid of Magearna's ability to reliably break past walls" doesn't make sense after mentioning how tbolt lets it break past probably the 2 most relevant walls to mag.
"Flash Cannon should be run with Thunderbolt to break past checks like Assault Vest Magearna, Mega Venusaur, Mega Mawile, and Amoonguss." idt ive ever seen someone run only tbolt+flash cannon (as opposed to fleur or ice beam) lol. plus, tbolt + ice beam "breaks past" all of these anyway p much.
this makes even less sense since it's followed by "Ice Beam could be run instead of Fleur Cannon alongside Thunderbolt" considering they just said you should run flash cannon with tbolt, not fleur cannon.
there are probably similar contradictions in the rest of the analysis that might be worth fixing, but i didnt get a chance to read through it
theres a few issues in here (mostly logical sentence flow) i think
its a bit weird to use tangrowth as an example since tangrowth 2hkos w/ earthquake anyway, but thats w/e.
"this gets rid of Magearna's ability to reliably break past walls" doesn't make sense after mentioning how tbolt lets it break past probably the 2 most relevant walls to mag.
"Flash Cannon should be run with Thunderbolt to break past checks like Assault Vest Magearna, Mega Venusaur, Mega Mawile, and Amoonguss." idt ive ever seen someone run only tbolt+flash cannon (as opposed to fleur or ice beam) lol. plus, tbolt + ice beam "breaks past" all of these anyway p much.
this makes even less sense since it's followed by "Ice Beam could be run instead of Fleur Cannon alongside Thunderbolt" considering they just said you should run flash cannon with tbolt, not fleur cannon.
there are probably similar contradictions in the rest of the analysis that might be worth fixing, but i didnt get a chance to read through it
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We appreciate the time you put into this, but we will not be implementing this, because Porygon-Z is Unranked and stuck in UUBL. Any Pokemon that is stuck in UUBL and Unranked will not receive a full analysis.
+1 252 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tangrowth: 345-406 (85.6 - 100.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
It never implied that you should set up a Calm Mind in front of Tangrowth. If Tangrowth switches in and you use Calm Mind, you will be able to overwhelm it, is what it is saying.
I changed it to "reliably break past other walls".
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396794
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-396428
Talah and ABR have both attested for this set and from my experience it's pretty decent too.
It's saying that instead of Flash Cannon, Ice Beam is ALSO an option to run instead of Fleur Cannon.
edit:
Took out these mentions.
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bigtalk
Banned deucer.
For Mew's analysis, the first slot should be changed to Earthquake / Ice Beam instead of just Earthquake, and the nature should be Jolly / Timid depending on which move it's running. Also might be worth mentioning somewhere that it will get shut down by Substitute Hawlucha if WOW / Earthquake are its only 2 attacking moves.
This is more of a nitpick, but for Landorus-T's analysis the Z-move spread should be 252 Atk / 24 Def / 232 Spe. This lets it hit 303 Spe which is enough for Jolly Excadrill, and looking at the speed tiers list I don't see anything relevant between 302 and 309. At worst it will cause it to move last vs opposing Z/sash Landos, but the added bulk helps out against physical attackers (eg. it has a greater chance to survive neutral Zard X's Flare Blitz/crit Leaf Blade from Kartana at full, for example).
This is more of a nitpick, but for Landorus-T's analysis the Z-move spread should be 252 Atk / 24 Def / 232 Spe. This lets it hit 303 Spe which is enough for Jolly Excadrill, and looking at the speed tiers list I don't see anything relevant between 302 and 309. At worst it will cause it to move last vs opposing Z/sash Landos, but the added bulk helps out against physical attackers (eg. it has a greater chance to survive neutral Zard X's Flare Blitz/crit Leaf Blade from Kartana at full, for example).
Felixx
I'm back.
I mean, it's entirely possible to not slash a move on a Pokemon's set and only mention the moves in the "Moves" section
I agree though that Mew's nature should definitely not be Timid and instead Jolly, since EQ is the only attacking move on the set
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
Agreed, I think in this case it warrants a slash though. Ice Beam isn't a fringe option because even with Zyg gone, Mew is still used as a check to physical attackers like Landorus, Gliscor, and Garchomp. Since these are also common rock setters, you would want to matchup favorably against them as a defogger.
I'll discuss this with the rest of the QC team. Edit: the consensus regarding slashing Ice Beam is no. I will change the nature when I’ve got time.
Speed tying with other Landorus-T will actually prove to be more significant most of the time than simply having a better chance to survive certain attacks. Analyses should also aim to keep it simple.
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Shouldn't we change Shuca Koko spread to something different than 104 HP / 12 Def / 176 SpA / 216 Spe? This was made with CB Thousand Arrows from Zygarde after Stealth Rock in mind, but now it doesn't get anything specific iirc.
Yeah was thinking about this, so I came up with a new spread:
Tapu Koko @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 32 HP / 88 Def / 172 SpA / 216 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
The HP + Def investment allows it to take a +2 Gliscor's Earthquake after rocks / a spike. The HP also guarantees you take Ash-Gren's Shuriken after rocks / a spike. I'll cms it soon.
This spread is now on-site.
Is it really necessary to run max Speed on Z move Magnezone? Is there anything notable you outrun? Defensive Heatran and Landorus-T ususally run enough to creep Tyranitar, so the only way Magnezone's outspeeding is if it runs Timid, which takes away a lot of power. Suicune's listed set runs enough to outrun positive natured base 80s, so Magnezone's not outspeeding it anyway. Wish Jiarchi normally runs enough Speed to outrun Timid Magearna, so Magnezone won't outrun it even with 252 Timid. Unless you're using Steelium Z you probably don't want to stay in on Tyranitar anyway as it'll easily stomach a Flash Cannon and OHKO with Earthquake. Magearna either runs max Speed Timid (Shift Gear), so again you won't outrun it, or no Speed at all (Assault Vest, Calm Mind+Pain Split, TR) so you'll outrun it. Personally I think a spread of 132 HP / 252 SpA / 124 Spe should be used - this outruns uninvested Mega Scizor and gives Magnezone some extra bulk. This increase means it is never OHKOed by Mega Mawile's +2 Sucker Punch from full HP and even surviving most of the time after Rocks, letting you trap and kill it more reliably. You could also mention 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe - this outruns max Speed Adamant Mega Mawile.
Calcs:
Current Spread
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Suggested Spread
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Calcs:
Current Spread
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Magnezone: 255-300 (90.7 - 106.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Suggested Spread
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 0 Def Magnezone: 255-301 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I added this spread: 136 HP / 24 Def / 156 SpA / 192 Spe to Set Details.
Great! Just curious but what does 192 EVs outrun?
Small error in a set i've found with greninja.
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/greninja/
the first set has 4 atk EVs when there are no physical moves in this set. Maybe change those EVs to one of it's defenses
https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/greninja/
the first set has 4 atk EVs when there are no physical moves in this set. Maybe change those EVs to one of it's defenses
Submitted a fix on CMS.
bigtalk
Banned deucer.
For the Kingdra analysis: https://www.smogon.com/dex/sm/pokemon/kingdra/ Would Scald be better for the second moveslot? It can punish switchins to Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, and Ferrothorn with a burn. Unless Surf picks up on any notable KOs that Scald doesn't (in the rain) that I am unaware of.
Can we consider making the last moveslot Ice Beam / Toxic instead of a bunch of HPs? Toxic cripples Gastrodon, Mantine and Bulu all in one slot.
Can we consider making the last moveslot Ice Beam / Toxic instead of a bunch of HPs? Toxic cripples Gastrodon, Mantine and Bulu all in one slot.