Unpopular opinions

[UninspiredLunch]

Yeah, I was considering writing up a post like Codraroll's too. I don't see how they could fit the gen 4 remakes development time if they don't want to regress to a tile-based map. IMO the fact that there is now large-scale mainline dlc means we can't assume gen 8 will follow the same template as the DS/3DS gens. Maybe we're even going straight to gen 9

 

[Rapti]

or we'd get Let's Go Shinx and Starly: tile-for-tile Sinnoh remakes with a fixed camera and a few features stripped away to shorten development time.

Utterly ridiculous idea
the games would obviously be Let's Go Pachirishu & Let's Go Riolu

 

[didls]

Let's Go Johto: Marill & Snubbull when?

 

[Antihaxxer]

Let's Go Hoenn : Skitty & Wailord ! For some HSOWA !

 

[Totodile_ShyGuy]

Here is some of my own personal opinions. You don’t have to agree with my points.

I think the Kanto region is too overrated. For one, it has two remake game pairs, those being FireRed, LeafGreen, LG Pikachu, and LG Eevee. And two, most people only care about Kanto and pretty much forget about regions like Alola or Galar.

My favorite region is Johto. ;)

Charizard gets too much recognition. I have seen some people (not many) actually FORGET that Venusaur and Blastoise exist. It’s honestly sad in my opinion. :(

 

[didls]

I think the Kanto region is too overrated. For one, it has two remake game pairs, those being FireRed, LeafGreen, LG Pikachu, and LG Eevee. And two, most people only care about Kanto and pretty much forget about regions like Alola or Galar.

Imo the opposite is true. I constantly see people on PS! drag Kanto for being bland and having very little diversity between areas (which I personally like).

Agree about Charizard. I don't think it's overrated, but definitely over-promoted.

 

[DreamPrince]

Here is some of my own personal opinions. You don’t have to agree with my points.

I think the Kanto region is too overrated. For one, it has two remake game pairs, those being FireRed, LeafGreen, LG Pikachu, and LG Eevee. And two, most people only care about Kanto and pretty much forget about regions like Alola or Galar.

My favorite region is Johto. ;)

Charizard gets too much recognition. I have seen some people (not many) actually FORGET that Venusaur and Blastoise exist. It’s honestly sad in my opinion. :(

Have you read the posts on this thread? That is not an unpopular opinion for Kanto being over represented as well as Charizard.

As for Johto, I like Johto, but people’s problems comes from poor type distribution as well as poor level lurve, which are valid flaws in Johto games.

 

[Totodile_ShyGuy]

Imo the opposite is true. I constantly see people on PS! drag Kanto for being bland and having very little diversity between areas (which I personally like).

Agree about Charizard. I don't think it's overrated, but definitely over-promoted.

Yeah, definitely okay for people to have different opinions.

Have you read the posts on this thread? That is not an unpopular opinion for Kanto being over represented as well as Charizard.

As for Johto, I like Johto, but people’s problems comes from poor type distribution as well as poor level lurve, which are valid flaws in Johto games.

Agreeable. :)

 

[Yung Dramps]

I see a lot of love for these guys so I'm decently sure this is a hot take, so here I go: Gen 5's Elite Four is among the worst in the series. I've already explained that I think there are no truly "good" Elite 4s prior to Gen 7 in terms of story significance and build-up and the Gen 6 E4 is probably still the worst, but Gen 5 is only 2nd place by a razor-thin margin. It comes down to two crippling flaws:

1. Only 4 Pokemon. You always see the Kalos League get shit on for this but nobody really brings it up for Unova, and no it still is not acceptable. Forget how in BW2 they had an entire extra selection of old-generation Pokemon to fill their rosters with that they actually did use but only for Challenge Mode even though 5 Pokemon was the standard for all prior generations without a hard mode being required, even BW1 could've given each of them 5 with some smart selection:

Marshal: Emboar. Flint had Infernape in DPP and E4 Lance would go on to have Charizard in Let's Go so why not? Gigalith could've also been an option as a pseudo-callback to Bruno.

Grimsley: Even discounting Hydreigon for use by Ghetsis they could've given him Mandibuzz. Zoroark could've also been an option if their handling of that Pokemon in BW1 wasn't so bizarre.

Shauntal: Unfortunately would have to rely on two of the same mon, and IMO they could've gone with Jellicent for that. With both genders you've at least have 2 unique designs. Alternatively this could've been the opportunity for another Gen 1 E4 nod, this time to Agatha by giving her a Poison type like Scolipede or Garbodor maybe.

Caitlin: Beheeyem and Swoobat were both available for her. Would've caused some overlap with other team members but this is the same game where Brycen exists so who cares.

2. Their lack of use in the story of either game. This is the much bigger reason, really. One of the biggest pros of Gen 5's plot is how they took a good amount of time to give Gym Leaders story roles as supporters who take stands against Team Plasma, give advice to the player and rivals and help them on their journey. This was the golden opportunity to finally let the Elite Four show themselves as the supposed strongest trainers in the region they are after 4 generations of being semi-asspulls with no true presence or buildup as anything more than some nebulous entity nobody ever meets outside the Pokemon League and they completely and utterly blew it. This is most evident in the climax of BW1: All the freakin Gym Leaders come to the League to stand off against the Seven Sages, many of them probably having to take the time to Fly or trek long distances to get over there in time. In this crisis which has forced these prestigious trainers' hands, the Elite Four doesn't do anything despite them being on-site already and a Pokemon Center being right there to heal up their comrades and get back into the fray. We can sit here all day trying to discuss/rationalize a reason for why this is, but that won't change the fact this is a gaping plot hole and the definitive sign that GF has never had any interest in developing the original E4s the same way they have steadily fleshed out the Gym Leaders. This is only further cemented in BW2, where while we see characters like Brycen returning to acting and Iris' ascension to the Champion position, the E4's one out-of-League scene is Marshal guarding Chargestone Cave, which is far too little far too late.

 

[Smoughon Account]

I see a lot of love for these guys so I'm decently sure this is a hot take, so here I go: Gen 5's Elite Four is among the worst in the series. I've already explained that I think there are no truly "good" Elite 4s prior to Gen 7 in terms of story significance and build-up and the Gen 6 E4 is probably still the worst, but Gen 5 is only 2nd place by a razor-thin margin. It comes down to two crippling flaws:

1. Only 4 Pokemon. You always see the Kalos League get shit on for this but nobody really brings it up for Unova, and no it still is not acceptable. Forget how in BW2 they had an entire extra selection of old-generation Pokemon to fill their rosters with that they actually did use but only for Challenge Mode even though 5 Pokemon was the standard for all prior generations without a hard mode being required, even BW1 could've given each of them 5 with some smart selection:

Marshal: Emboar. Flint had Infernape in DPP and E4 Lance would go on to have Charizard in Let's Go so why not? Gigalith could've also been an option as a pseudo-callback to Bruno.

Grimsley: Even discounting Hydreigon for use by Ghetsis they could've given him Mandibuzz. Zoroark could've also been an option if their handling of that Pokemon in BW1 wasn't so bizarre.

Shauntal: Unfortunately would have to rely on two of the same mon, and IMO they could've gone with Jellicent for that. With both genders you've at least have 2 unique designs. Alternatively this could've been the opportunity for another Gen 1 E4 nod, this time to Agatha by giving her a Poison type like Scolipede or Garbodor maybe.

Caitlin: Beheeyem and Swoobat were both available for her. Would've caused some overlap with other team members but this is the same game where Brycen exists so who cares.

2. Their lack of use in the story of either game. This is the much bigger reason, really. One of the biggest pros of Gen 5's plot is how they took a good amount of time to give Gym Leaders story roles as supporters who take stands against Team Plasma, give advice to the player and rivals and help them on their journey. This was the golden opportunity to finally let the Elite Four show themselves as the supposed strongest trainers in the region they are after 4 generations of being semi-asspulls with no true presence or buildup as anything more than some nebulous entity nobody ever meets outside the Pokemon League and they completely and utterly blew it. This is most evident in the climax of BW1: All the freakin Gym Leaders come to the League to stand off against the Seven Sages, many of them probably having to take the time to Fly or trek long distances to get over there in time. In this crisis which has forced these prestigious trainers' hands, the Elite Four doesn't do anything despite them being on-site already and a Pokemon Center being right there to heal up their comrades and get back into the fray. We can sit here all day trying to discuss/rationalize a reason for why this is, but that won't change the fact this is a gaping plot hole and the definitive sign that GF has never had any interest in developing the original E4s the same way they have steadily fleshed out the Gym Leaders. This is only further cemented in BW2, where while we see characters like Brycen returning to acting and Iris' ascension to the Champion position, the E4's one out-of-League scene is Marshal guarding Chargestone Cave, which is far too little far too late.

One pro about BW's Elite Four is that because you can fight them in any order, they don't lead to a ridiculous level gap like some of the earlier games. Sure there's a bit of a gap between Drayden/Iris and Ghetsis, but at least there isn't such a ridiculous gap between the individual E4. Imagine if you fought the E4 in order and every one had higher leveled Pokémon than the last. Ghetsis could've potentially had a level 57+ Hydreigon. The battle theme for the E4 is pretty cool.

I don't think this is really that much of an unpopular opinion, but I don't see it posted all the time. The level curve at the end of the game in most Pokemon games are pretty atrocious imo. The gap between the 8th Gym Leader and the Champion is pretty bad. You could argue that it has a good reason, I mean they ARE the strongest trainers in the region. The problem comes when there is only one or two routes in between the final gym and the Pokémon League. The first example that always comes to mind when I think of this Diamond and Pearl. I'm pretty sure I already mentioned this in a post somewhere on these forums, but I'll repeat it. Volkner's ace is 49. Cynthia's ace is 66. Aaron, the first Elite Four member has a level 53 as his lowest leveled Pokémon. It's so bad that they fixed the levels in Platinum, but even there it's pretty bad. 50 for Volkner and 62 for Cynthia. In RB, Giovanni had a level 50 Rhydon, while your rival's starter is level 65. FireRed and Leafgreen actually fix this to an extent. Giovanni still has a level 50 for his ace (which isn't even a Rhydon it's a Rhyorn. whoops) while you'r rival's starter is level 63. As a matter of fact, Kanto's E4 has had everyone's levels decreased by two. Just like in Platinum.

Hoenn has this problem as well, but not as bad as DP. Wallace/Juan's ace is level 46, Steven/Wallace is level 58. Sidney's Pokémon are pretty close to the 8th gym leader surprisingly. they're all around 46-49. ORAS is a little different with the way the E4 scale. From Gen 5 (I believe) and up many boss trainers have all of their Pokémon at the same level with the exception of their ace, which is two levels higher. ORAS has their E4 set up this way. 4 Pokémon at one level and then their ace is two levels higher. Every E4 is one level higher than the previous. What's weird is when you get to Steven. Drake's ace is level 55, so it would make sense for Steven to be one level higher right? Nope. For some reason all of Steven's Pokémon are 2 levels higher than Drake's Salamence. I guess it makes sense that the champion is higher leveled than the E4, but it ends up making the level curve kind of weird. His Metagross is level 59 in the remakes; which is one level higher than in the originals. To be fair, it doesn't really matter anyways considering ORAS has the gen 6 Exp Share.

As I mentioned, in BW Drayden/Iris's ace is level 43 while Ghetsis is level 54. But if you look at the above, there seemed to be around a 12-15 level gap between the final gym and the champion. In this game it's 11. Which is only slightly lower lol. B2W2 isn't as bad. Marlon's ace is level 51, while Iris's ace is level 59. That's only 8 levels. I believe you may also do the team Plasma stuff after the eight gym? I can't remember. If so, then Ghetsis has a level 52 as his ace. In that case it drops is down to 7.

GS, despite being criticized heavily for it's level curve - which is completely fair - isn't as bad as games released before and after. Clair has a level 40, while Lance has a level 50. His Dragonite is also his only Pokémon that is that high. The rest of his team are level 44 and 46. HGSS changes both Clair and Lance. In the remakes Clair's Kingdra is level 41, and while Lance's ace is still level 50, the rest of his party (except for Gyrados lol) are all much closer to level 50 than in the originals. Ironic, isn't it. The games with one of the worst level curves has the lowest gap between the 8th Gym Leader and the Champion until B2W2. To be fair, the trainers you face before the E4 are all kind of low leveled. Not a single trainer has a Pokémon above level 40 lol. They're all around level 32-36.

I think the biggest issue with this is that the games don't really tend to give you great places to grind your team before the final gauntlet. Thus if you want to grind your team up before the E4, it can end up being a multiple hour or even day long grind.

TLDR: Every Pokémon game has a really big gap between the 8th Gym Leader and the Champion and even sometimes the E4 while not providing great places to grind levels without spending multiple hours.


why did i spend an hour on this I've got to wake up in 4 hours lol rip sleep am i right guys

 

[greentyphlosion]

I see a lot of love for these guys so I'm decently sure this is a hot take, so here I go: Gen 5's Elite Four is among the worst in the series. I've already explained that I think there are no truly "good" Elite 4s prior to Gen 7 in terms of story significance and build-up and the Gen 6 E4 is probably still the worst, but Gen 5 is only 2nd place by a razor-thin margin. It comes down to two crippling flaws:

1. Only 4 Pokemon. You always see the Kalos League get shit on for this but nobody really brings it up for Unova, and no it still is not acceptable. Forget how in BW2 they had an entire extra selection of old-generation Pokemon to fill their rosters with that they actually did use but only for Challenge Mode even though 5 Pokemon was the standard for all prior generations without a hard mode being required, even BW1 could've given each of them 5 with some smart selection:

Marshal: Emboar. Flint had Infernape in DPP and E4 Lance would go on to have Charizard in Let's Go so why not? Gigalith could've also been an option as a pseudo-callback to Bruno.

Grimsley: Even discounting Hydreigon for use by Ghetsis they could've given him Mandibuzz. Zoroark could've also been an option if their handling of that Pokemon in BW1 wasn't so bizarre.

Shauntal: Unfortunately would have to rely on two of the same mon, and IMO they could've gone with Jellicent for that. With both genders you've at least have 2 unique designs. Alternatively this could've been the opportunity for another Gen 1 E4 nod, this time to Agatha by giving her a Poison type like Scolipede or Garbodor maybe.

Caitlin: Beheeyem and Swoobat were both available for her. Would've caused some overlap with other team members but this is the same game where Brycen exists so who cares.

2. Their lack of use in the story of either game. This is the much bigger reason, really. One of the biggest pros of Gen 5's plot is how they took a good amount of time to give Gym Leaders story roles as supporters who take stands against Team Plasma, give advice to the player and rivals and help them on their journey. This was the golden opportunity to finally let the Elite Four show themselves as the supposed strongest trainers in the region they are after 4 generations of being semi-asspulls with no true presence or buildup as anything more than some nebulous entity nobody ever meets outside the Pokemon League and they completely and utterly blew it. This is most evident in the climax of BW1: All the freakin Gym Leaders come to the League to stand off against the Seven Sages, many of them probably having to take the time to Fly or trek long distances to get over there in time. In this crisis which has forced these prestigious trainers' hands, the Elite Four doesn't do anything despite them being on-site already and a Pokemon Center being right there to heal up their comrades and get back into the fray. We can sit here all day trying to discuss/rationalize a reason for why this is, but that won't change the fact this is a gaping plot hole and the definitive sign that GF has never had any interest in developing the original E4s the same way they have steadily fleshed out the Gym Leaders. This is only further cemented in BW2, where while we see characters like Brycen returning to acting and Iris' ascension to the Champion position, the E4's one out-of-League scene is Marshal guarding Chargestone Cave, which is far too little far too late.

I agree with all your points, and one other thing I find odd about the Unova Elite 4 is how... well, evil they felt.

When I first played Black it was in Japanese which I mostly can't read, so I had no idea what they were meant to be like and I found myself thinking "are these people meant to be bad?" The League music and their battle themes are ominous and dark-sounding. Shauntal's room is creepy as heck, Grimsley's room makes him look straight-up evil and his battle sprite makes him look like an asshole, Caitlin is just strange and the weird childlike aura of her room gave me vibes of anime Sabrina. Marshall should be the most normal of them all but even his room is dark and shadowy and intimidating.

Plus the types they specialise in don't help. Dark, Ghost, Psychic, and Fighting. Four types that aren't always seen as good or positive (Dark is often used by evil teams, Ghost is malicious and scary, Psychic can be intimidating and mysterious, and lots of Fighting Pokemon and Trainers are often crude and thuggish).

Looking back (and with the benefit of having subsequently played the games in English) I appreciate their designs and characters a lot more but I was really unnerved by them all when I first played. One thing I did like was that they all stayed in place in the sequels though.

However, they're not nearly as bad as the Kalos E4, another foursome who play no role in the game's plot whatsoever (apart from Malva but she, like most of Team Flare, left very little impression and was vastly more interesting in the manga).

Not to mention the most uninspired typings ever (Fire, Water, Steel, Dragon - it's like a five year-old's idea of cool).

There's precious little to say about the other three. Wikstrom and Drasna are just bland while Siebold is actively obnoxious: all I remember is him asking you a question and if you choose the answer he doesn't like he immediately starts shouting at you. Who the fuck are you again? Why do I care about what you have to say? In five minutes I'll have beaten you and will never encounter you again outside of grinding in the Battle Maison. Mmkay, bye. Again, he was more interesting in the anime where he had a Mega Blastoise. In fact, why do none of the E4 apart from Diantha Mega Evolve their Pokemon? Wikstrom could have had Scizor or Aggron, Drasna could have had Ampharos or Garchomp, Malva could have had Charizard or Houndoom. Would have made them stand out a bit more.

 

[didls]

1. Only 4 Pokemon. You always see the Kalos League get shit on for this but nobody really brings it up for Unova, and no it still is not acceptable.

It's not really because they only have 4 Pokémon; that doesn't have anything to do with it. It's just that XY are much easier games, and they would be regardless of how many Pokémon the E4 had.

2. Their lack of use in the story of either game. This is the much bigger reason, really. One of the biggest pros of Gen 5's plot is how they took a good amount of time to give Gym Leaders story roles as supporters who take stands against Team Plasma, give advice to the player and rivals and help them on their journey. This was the golden opportunity to finally let the Elite Four show themselves as the supposed strongest trainers in the region they are after 4 generations of being semi-asspulls with no true presence or buildup as anything more than some nebulous entity nobody ever meets outside the Pokemon League and they completely and utterly blew it.

Fair. However, prior to SM, the E4 never had any story significance, so I din't think it's fair to only complain about this in Gen 5. Though, imo, it makes sense for the E4 to not have any plot involvement.

 

[Totodile_ShyGuy]

It's not really because they only have 4 Pokémon; that doesn't have anything to do with it. It's just that XY are much easier games, and they would be regardless of how many Pokémon the E4 had.

Very true. Lots of people say the easiest main series games are X and Y or LGP and LGE.

 

[Yung Dramps]

Fair. However, prior to SM, the E4 never had any story significance, so I din't think it's fair to only complain about this in Gen 5. Though, imo, it makes sense for the E4 to not have any plot involvement.

I acknowledged that, but the reason why it's so egregious in the BW E4's case is that their plot role is handed to them on a silver platter. Their very own Pokemon League is under attack, the presumably weaker Gym Leaders come up to help stop Team Plasma, they even got a Pokemon Center on-site to rest their party up after fighting the player/Cheren and they still do absolutely nothing. Mind explaining your stance on why it makes sense for the E4 to not get involved in this case?

 

[didls]

Mind explaining your stance on why it makes sense for the E4 to not get involved in this case?

I agree that the E4 should have gotten involved in that case, but that's not what I mean. When I said "plot involvement", I meant things like Olivia's Probopass in SM, or the multiple encounters you have with her before the E4. It makes sense how, in prior games, you didn't get to know the E4 on a personal level like that. They're basically celebrities.

 

[Hematite]

One extremely minor thing that might be worth noting about the Unova Elite Four is that they had an actual reason to have only four Pokémon. ... uh, in BW, at least.
I think the intention there was to balance out the fact of having (effectively) two Champions: 4*4 + 6*2 (28 - or 29 counting the mascot) is actually more than 5*4 + 6 (26). Having teams of five would've meant a disproportionately long Pokémon League and noticeably more time spent on battling - I can't blame them for making that choice, to be honest!
It wouldn't necessarily have been a matter of difficulty - I mean, you can go to the Pokémon Center in between the Elite Four and N, and N himself heals you before Ghetsis - but the actual length of the event was already longer than usual, and they probably just didn't want players to lose steam before they got to the important part. It was a pretty effective solution to a pretty reasonable problem, I think.
One thing I do think was a problem here is the abundance of single-typed Pokémon - between Caitlin and Marshall, seven of their eight Pokémon had no secondary type, which also means every single one of Marshall's Pokémon being the same type "combination." I think even a four-Pokémon boss can do better than that - the fewer Pokémon there are, the less of an excuse there is for them to be so redundant to each other, you know? But on the other hand, Shauntal is a four-Pokémon boss done perfectly well - even without a fifth Pokémon, she actually manages to be one of the tougher Elite Four in the series in my opinion and actually stands out as the strongest in the Unova League pretty much every time I play!
In any case, the sense of ending fatigue I got from how long Sword and Shield dragged on during the Championship arc has definitely given me a new appreciation for how well BW's mid-League story sequence was paced. The two separate tournaments against five-Pokémon bosses - with the only really notable plot point that happened during either of them happening being Bede's challenge - just felt like padding to separate the also-awkwardly-paced story segments around them; this was an example of sticking to a traditional gauntlet ending purely for the sake of sticking to a traditional gauntlet ending, and the fact that BW went out of their way to mitigate that feeling is something I respect.

B2W2 are somewhat more questionable, because there is no reason to have only four Pokémon for the majority of players; the result in this case is that Challenge Mode ends up "on par" relative to the rest of the series, which... not only does that not affect a majority of players (leaving everyone else with four-Pokémon teams for no reason), but it's actually a valid criticism of Challenge Mode in itself (I'm positive I've seen someone say so here earlier - Yung Dramps, was it in one of your posts?), and I can't help but agree after playing it.
Remembering how much harder B2W2 seemed than most games when I played them as a kid I was the kind of player who skipped content regularly and ended up underleveled for everything, though, I went into Challenge Mode plus various restrictions - no Poké Marts, no in-battle items, set mode, and I feel like there was something else I'm forgetting expecting to struggle on a comparable level as an adult, but it was pretty underwhelming, even below average, in terms of difficulty even then. It was still a super fun run, though - it gave me a newfound appreciation for how mindbogglingly content-stuffed B2W2 are and how many side dungeons and fun features there are, and I ended up with one of my favorite teams in the series. It was just way easier than I expected. XP
Buuut yeah, I didn't lose a single time past Cheren ... who actually did beat me up many, many times because I did not have a good team at that point - and I don't think I even came close to losing at any point except the final Colress fight.
Many of the bosses in Challenge Mode do have some particularly well-planned strategies on paper (like, Clay has an incredibly cool sandstorm team), but none of that actually worked out in practice because they just never had the time to pull them off successfully. This is another reason why giving bosses EVs in Generation VII was an unexpectedly fantastic decision that should really be standard going forward!

By X and Y, though, there was just no excuse - or even an obvious intention like B2W2 (nothing like "it was misguided but I can see why they thought it was a good idea") - and I get the impression that they just remembered doing it in BW, didn't think about why it worked or why it was necessary, and blindly took the same path. I appreciate that we changed back immediately afterwards when they realized how silly that was, haha.

So, uh, yeah! The story issue with BW's Elite Four is very jarring and I definitely agree that they should've done more more reasons why Alola has the best Elite Four by far, but I actually think the four-Pokémon teams were an acceptable choice for BW - just one that got progressively less acceptable as the justifications for it got weaker and weaker in subsequent games until Game Freak (rightly) returned to the normal five-Pokémon teams.

 

[Yung Dramps]

B2W2 are somewhat more questionable, because there is no reason to have only four Pokémon for the majority of players; the result in this case is that Challenge Mode ends up "on par" relative to the rest of the series, which... not only does that not affect a majority of players (leaving everyone else with four-Pokémon teams for no reason), but it's actually a valid criticism of Challenge Mode in itself (I'm positive I've seen someone say so here earlier - Yung Dramps, was it in one of your posts?), and I can't help but agree after playing it.

Yup! Can't find the exact post, not even sure if it was on this thread, but I did indeed mention at some point how Challenge Mode isn't even really a Challenge Mode so much as a "bringing boss teams up to the previous standard" mode outside of more intensive item use. I didn't think of the possibility of the 4 mon Elite Four members being done for pacing, I guess that's a little more valid although going to your example of the SWSH Tournament finale being kind of wack in that aspect I personally never found it a problem and haven't heard anyone else really complain about it, so idk how much this would've been appreciated by the public at large assuming that is indeed the rationale for cutting down their Pokemon rosters.

 

[sb879]

Yup! Can't find the exact post, not even sure if it was on this thread, but I did indeed mention at some point how Challenge Mode isn't even really a Challenge Mode so much as a "bringing boss teams up to the previous standard" mode outside of more intensive item use.

I agree somewhat, but not entirely with that. Challenge mode is definitely quite tough up to Clay and surpasses most Pokemon games. Hell, I think the game up to that point is a serviceable challenge even on normal mode. But after that I think the difficulty falls off a cliff. Now, to be fair, I think most Pokemon games have a lull from the 6th through 8th gyms, mainly due to your team likely being fully-evolved. But, not only do several games at least have some aspects to spice up parts of these lulls, whether it be level jumps, doubles, evasion BS, or EVs, but almost every game at least gets it shit together for the endgame. Though to be fair, that's usually via massive level jumps which aren't exactly well-received. I'll digress a bit to add my own unpopular opinion and say I enjoy these jumps for the endgame, especially since the gap is often smaller than it looks in the first 3 generations due to badge boosts. I will concede that it is not the best way to increase difficulty due to the understandable desire to match your opponent's levels causing many players to needlessly grind, but in general I think a difficulty jump at endgame is justified. Props to Alola for using EVs, which increase the difficulty in a way that doesn't immediately compel players to grind.

Anyways, back to my main point: BW2 doesn't do anything of the sort after Clay. I guess this might sound like a weird complaint, but it's honestly too fair. You're not facing bad Pokemon, but not really anything notable, either. Everything's roughly your level, and the Pokemon are of similar viability to yours. And when you're likely to have more Pokemon than your opponents by this point, it just doesn't work out. Even Iris is just...pretty good. Hydreigon and Haxorus are stand-outs, but Druddigon and Aggrons are duds, and Lapras and Archeops are respectable, but not impressive. I honestly find her the weakest final battle after Diantha and RB Rival, even on Challenge Mode. This is especially jarring since, as I mentioned earlier, the game is actually quite tough earlier on and feels like a proper Challenge Mode. But after that, I'd go as far as to say Challenge Mode doesn't even necessarily bring BW2 up to the difficulty standards of earlier games, it's often under them.

 

[Pikachu315111]

Looking back (and with the benefit of having subsequently played the games in English) I appreciate their designs and characters a lot more but I was really unnerved by them all when I first played. One thing I did like was that they all stayed in place in the sequels though.

So in other words the Unovan Elite Four intimidated you? Maybe that was the point, some psychological warfare. These guys & gals are the top four trainers before the Champion, you're not supposed to go up against them feeling like you'll breeze through them you're supposed to feel each one is going to give you a tough battle.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

One thing I do think was a problem here is the abundance of single-typed Pokémon - between Caitlin and Marshall, seven of their eight Pokémon had no secondary type, which also means every single one of Marshall's Pokémon being the same type "combination." I think even a four-Pokémon boss can do better than that - the fewer Pokémon there are, the less of an excuse there is for them to be so redundant to each other, you know? But on the other hand, Shauntal is a four-Pokémon boss done perfectly well - even without a fifth Pokémon, she actually manages to be one of the tougher Elite Four in the series in my opinion and actually stands out as the strongest in the Unova League pretty much every time I play!

This seems more like a permutation of the Flint problem more than anything. The reason Caitlin and Marshall have so many mono-type Pokemon is because there aren't many Psychic or Fighting Unovan Pokemon that have secondary typings.

Here are all the fully evolved Psychic Pokemon in Unova:

Victini and Meloetta are mythical, and Caitlin already has Sigilyph as a dual type. That leaves her with only two options: Swoobat (who is redundant) and Zen Darmanitan (who is very awkward to use well).

Likewise, here are all the fully evolved Fighting Pokemon in Unova:

Musketeers and Meloetta are legendary/mythical. This means Marshal's only options are Emboar (starters of the game they're in tend to be avoided when possible (ignoring the cases where the starter depends on yours, it's just Flint and Gardenia (and Surge depending on how you want to treat Yellow))) and Scrafty. Scrafty is the only Pokemon between both trainers that has no reason not to be on the team. The baggy pants would match Marshal's own baggy pants, and Grimsley can just use a Mandibuzz in its place.

 

[Imperial Magala]

The baggy pants would match Marshal's own baggy pants, and Grimsley can just use a Mandibuzz in its place.

Especially since no other trainer at all uses a Manibuzz in BW. At least Braviary is used by Cynthia in Undella Town.

 

[PokePoindexter]

I recently started a new adventure in Platinum, and I have to get this off my chest.

Sinnoh Rant

I don't like this region. There, I said it; it's my absolute least favorite region by a country mile, and it's going to need some massive improvements if we ever see Diamond/Pearl remakes.

It has its good points here and there; Mt. Coronet, the postgame areas, and the Distortion World in Platinum are amazing, the Sinnoh Underground had its fun points, and I like the variety of mythology and ruins the region has. I feel there are a lot of ways all of them could be expanded upon in remakes. The layout of the region is also fairly expansive and full of locations to explore, which I appreciate.

But where Sinnoh drops the ball is in the act of actually doing the exploration, and this is where my real problem with the region lies. People constantly give shit to regions like Hoenn for all the water and Alola for the opening island; honestly, I'd rather endure both 5 times over than slog through the worst parts of Sinnoh once. There are three big offenders in this regard: Route 212 with all the mud that you can get stuck in, Route 211 with the fog and a gauntlet of surprisingly tough trainers for that point in the game (Defog was the epitome of a solution to a problem that didn't need to exist, and its battle effects at the time were barely better than Flash), and the worst offender by far, the trek to Snowpoint City. Starting from Route 216, every battle has Hail in it (and you can't get any Ice-types prior to reaching that area for the first time), you can't ride your bike, and once you reach Route 217, the snow becomes so deep that your walking speed can slow to roughly that of a Pyukumuku carrying a Snorlax on its back across a pool full of quicksand. This is not my idea of a good time; this is what is known as a test of patience. At least you can surf at twice the normal speed on a Sharpedo in ORAS, and you get the opportunity to do a few interesting things on Melemele Island. With the aforementioned areas in Sinnoh, none of that is true. So it would take a lot to convince me that many of the more hated areas of other regions are as bad as these areas (especially the blizzard area).

Also, while not nearly as gamebreaking, I can't say I'm a fan of the way Sinnoh modified Secret Bases and Contests; I liked both much better in the prior generation (and its remakes). Sinnoh's Secret Bases are all set in the Underground, there's less space to decorate, you can't place as many decorations, and each base has a bunch of rocks in it that further restrict the space to decorate (and you can't get rid of them anymore now that DPP's Wi-Fi is dead). As for Super Contests, the additions just felt pointless; the visual round involves "accessories", of which the better ones are a real headache to try to get (such as 100 Watmel Berries for a Surfboard; have fun trying to get that many of any berry in these games), and there's no way to know which accessories work for which theme unless you have a guide. As for the dance round, it was basically just a rhythm minigame. I'm not against the idea of modifying or adding new bells and whistles to already-existing entities, but I don't think Sinnoh's versions of Secret Bases or Contests were the right way to do it. If you thought these features were pointless in Gen 3, the chance that you'll feel any differently towards Gen 4's bastardized renditions of them is pretty slim.

I don't dislike DPP as a whole, but trying to trek through the region they take place in really drives me up a wall. I could go on about other things about Sinnoh that irritate me, but this post is already about three times as long as I originally meant it to be. But I am going to be utterly livid if I find myself buried up to my shoulders in snow in any future remakes.

 

[Rapti]

GS, despite being criticized heavily for it's level curve - which is completely fair - isn't as bad as games released before and after. Clair has a level 40, while Lance has a level 50. His Dragonite is also his only Pokémon that is that high.

It's almost as if Red was the true final boss of the game
how may levels was he over Green again?

but yes, you're pretty much expected to grind in the last part of the game because this is an RPG and it's tradition and you're gonna do it and you're gonna play by my rules as long as you're living under my roof young man so stop complaining and eat your vegetales
>:T

 

[Pikachu315111]

It's almost as if Red was the true final boss of the game
how may levels was he over Green again?

In Let's Go?
Green's & Blue's teams are 66/68 for ace
Red's team are all 85.
So that's a 19-17 level jump.

Though this is because Green & Blue can be battled right away in the post game while Red you have to defeat at least 6 of the Master Trainers before he'll appear. Though I'm not quite sure why they decided "six" was the magic number of Master Trainers needed to be defeated. If anything, if he's consider the strongest challenge, shouldn't being able to challenge Red involve first beating Blue, Green, & rematch the entire Pokemon League (Gym Leaders, Elite Four & Trace)? Like what does beating the Master Trainers accomplish that makes Red comes out?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

In Let's Go?
Green's & Blue's teams are 66/68 for ace
Red's team are all 85.
So that's a 19-17 level jump.

Though this is because Green & Blue can be battled right away in the post game while Red you have to defeat at least 6 of the Master Trainers before he'll appear. Though I'm not quite sure why they decided "six" was the magic number of Master Trainers needed to be defeated. If anything, if he's consider the strongest challenge, shouldn't being able to challenge Red involve first beating Blue, Green, & rematch the entire Pokemon League (Gym Leaders, Elite Four & Trace)? Like what does beating the Master Trainers accomplish that makes Red comes out?

Pretty sure Rapti was referring to Blue (Green in Japan) in Johto. GSC has his highest mons at level 58, while HGSS has it at 60. Red's highest level Pokemon (not counting the Pikachu because it's a Pikachu) are at level 77 in GSC and 84 in HGSS. That means GSC has 19 level gap, while HGSS has a 24 level gap.