Upsetting The Metagame

[Ramblin Wreck]

I can see what the OP is getting at here. I've never battled on Shoddy, but off the top of my head I can give you five slots on what would be a very successful team in someone's hands other than mine. Latias, Salamence, Scizor, Heatran, Rotom-A. Then, depending on the style of team, something like Swampert or Tyranitar.

There is a heavy centralization around dragon and steel, as shown by this team from the RMT archive.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49512

Three Dragons, three Steels, and it worked EXTREMELY well.

That's why I like UU so much more than OU; there is much more variety on teams, and between teams.

 

[cantab]

That's actually a good way of doing it. Calculate how much damage the hazards do to Pokemon on average (weighting by Poke usage). SR probably will come out on top overall.

Stealth Rock has a huge impact on the metagame, for it is indeed everywhere. What I'm saying is its prevalence may owe as much to what learns it as to the nature of Stealth Rock itself. For the same reason, Earthquake is the number 1 move despite the plethora of things immune to it - because so many Pokemon learn Earthquake.

That SR is typed does also contributes to its impact. Then again, Salamence and Gyarados are used a lot despite their weakness to it.

The multitude of Spike users isn't really relevant to this discussion, because we are talking about the effects that the moves themselves have on our meta, and subsequently, whether or not they (Stealth Rock) deserve to be considered a suspect. There are more than enough usable users of the move itself in the OU environment to display its effects appropriately.

If you do consider SR suspect, then the range of Pokemon that can use it is surely a factor. It's learnt by so much that I reckon you'd struggle to build a decent OU team with no Pokemon capable of learning the move - even if playing in a SR-banned metagame. Thus, any team can find a space for it - and given the advantages, they do. If SR was only learnt by a dozen Pokemon, would it be so prevalent? No move can be broken in and of itself, it can only be broken if there are Pokemon that can use it brokenly. To take an extreme example, give Luvdisc a 200 Base Power priority move and it still wouldn't be broken.

Hypothetically, if the users of Spikes and Stealth Rock were switched, I reckon Spikes would be the entry hazard everywhere, and people would be complaining that it gave an unfair advantage to fliers and levitators.

 

[Ulevo]

If you do consider SR suspect, then the range of Pokemon that can use it is surely a factor. It's learnt by so much that I reckon you'd struggle to build a decent OU team with no Pokemon capable of learning the move - even if playing in a SR-banned metagame. Thus, any team can find a space for it - and given the advantages, they do. If SR was only learnt by a dozen Pokemon, would it be so prevalent? No move can be broken in and of itself, it can only be broken if there are Pokemon that can use it brokenly. To take an extreme example, give Luvdisc a 200 Base Power priority move and it still wouldn't be broken.

I could not disagree with you more if I tried. That is the entire problem with Stealth Rock. It is broken in and of itself, because it's use does not depend upon the Pokemon using it.

Take powerful moves like Draco Meteor, or Explosion. Clearly, both are incredible, and able to end games, break through walls, and clinch matches. However, much the way your exaggerated example implied, if it is used by a Pokemon that does not formulate with it accordingly, or beneficially, it will not work effectively.

Salamence with Draco Meteor is a powerful force, much the same way Metagross with Explosion is a powerful force. However, their effects are dependant on a few factors. Attack/Special Attack is one factor. If we give Draco Meteor to a Gible, suddenly that move is no longer effective, because it does not support the stat to use it well--it is too weak. Speed is also another factor. If user is too slow to use the move, unless it has the Defense/Special Defense to brace whatever is thrown at it until it can use the move, then again this becomes a problem. STAB is also something to consider. If Draco Meteor is given to Salamence, it's power increases by 1.5, simply for sharing type attribute. Draco Meteor is not learned by anything other than Dragon, but if an equivalent move, say Overheat, were given to Salamence, it's power drops further. This is all very self explanatory, but the point that I am making is that the move in question depends on the Pokemon using it.

Stealth Rock ignores this rule. It is just as effective as if it were used by a lvl 5 Sandshrew as it would be by a lvl 100 lead Azelf. Clearly the Azelf would be the better option, because one would not want to waste synergy and a party slot on a useless Pokemon, but for the purposes of acting out the use of Stealth Rock, the move needs minimal support, and the Pokemon using the move is nearly irrelevant. It won't matter if a lvl 5 Sandshrew with Focus Sash starts off the battle using Stealth Rock, because your Ninjask or your Salamence or your Weavile are going to lose that 25%-50% health on switch just the same had an Azelf used it.

And please do not take the Sandshrew example and run with it, because it was a completely unnecessary, but very straight forward example. Clearly we are seeing the use of multiple OU, very powerful Pokes using this move, but my point stands to reason.

Hypothetically, if the users of Spikes and Stealth Rock were switched, I reckon Spikes would be the entry hazard everywhere, and people would be complaining that it gave an unfair advantage to fliers and levitators.

No, because Spikes worth would not change. It would still take 2-3 turns to set up, it would still require a solid ghost to be used on your team, and the benefits would be the same. The fact that a million Pokemon learn Protect/Detect does not make them useful. It's the quality of the move itself. Now, if Spikes had a type attribute that damaged based on the types that switched in, then you might have an argument. But even then, it still wouldn't be as good or as commonly used, because it doesn't set up in a single turn.

 

[cantab]

Why do Spikes require a ghost to prevent them being removed, while Stealth Rock does not? I've already covered why one layer of spikes, though generally worse than SR, is still far from useless, hitting plenty of things just the same and a few things harder. Just because you CAN set up multiple layers, does not mean you have to, or even that it's desirable to use turns to do so. Suppose you plan on using spikes but only setting up one layer - why are you in any more need of a spin blocker than a team using SR?

I'd like to give an offensive spikes team a go. But who would I use as a spiker? No users are really fast enough to be a spikes suicide lead, so I'd probably have to put them on my supporter. (EDIT: Maybe it would work better in UU, with Froslass.)

EDIT: I'm not necessarily saying SR is or is not broken. That would require testing. But I feel that 'spikes needs three turns to set up' is a misconception. More layers helps, but it's optional. Spikes is usually seen on stall teams, which have the turns to set three layers. But if you put spikes on an offensive team, you'll probably be using 1 layer. No-one DOES, and I feel that's mainly because Stealth Rock has better users, not because it's the better hazard (although it generally is).

Lets say Electrode or Ninjask got Spikes and Taunt. Stops any stealth rock lead and puts up its own spikes. I think that alone would lead to a spike in spikes usage, and people wouldn't always go for three layers.

 

[Lockeness]

Metagames are based on internal factors that evolve because of threats and strategies. As new moves are used and strategies become popular the metagame changes. Pokemon has billions of different combinations and strategies. The metagame shifts as different ideas take hold or fail. The metagame also changes in subtle less discernable ways. Take Smeargle leads. Smeargle is easily destroyed by nearly everything but it has a very special niche that it could fill. When lum berry metagross leads became more popular as a result of Smeargle becoming popular the metagame changed. It has gone through a subtle change which spreads like a ripple throughout the whole game. It would be very interesting to do chaos theory analysis on the metagame. To take the many factors and to analyze them.

 

[rvrstar12]

i agree with a lot of people on this, such as people just wanting to win and all...but then again there are also the pokes that don't get as much recognition that they should...Porygon2 is the best salamence counter..but its NU
Hariyama is an awesome T-tar counter..its UU
i really think people just need to start using the pokes that arent used as much if they want to change things...prove that you can defeat a team of the top 6 OU's witha bunch of NU's and UU's

 

[TSPhoenix]

From late 200-play to Emerald I tended to use non-standard teams. I did reasonably well. Yet there was no denying the raw power of a Gyarados or a Salamence. Those metagames were a little more forgiving and less offense-oreientated than HGSS's mind you. These days the number of viable walls is much lower, I mean look at Cresselia's stats and it still can't wall reliably.

But these days I've been mostly using Swampert, Latias, Rotom-H, Scizor, Lucario, TTar, Zapdos, Heatran across my main teams and they simply work. They comprise my most successful teams (Heatran and Zapdos being my Rotom and Latias replacements for Wifi). My sets are pretty standard, I run Toxic on Swampert to good effect, and I'm EV'd for high bulk giving me more staying power than people expect which often catches people off guard, but otherwise very standard stuff.

That said when I use a less conventional team I don't really do that much worse, and I'd say that with some more intelligent team building (they weren't given as much though in the way of EV spread and coverage as my main OU team) these teams could be really potent.

To give an example another team of mine has TTar and Aggron. TTar provides the sand and that makes Aggron very hard to kill as Ground/Fighting attacks are reasonably easy to predict and Aggron has lots of HP, huge Defense and nice SpDef in the sand and nice resistances. If you get it in safely it is astoundingly dangerous. For example Head Smash OHKOs Suicune who can't OHKO it with an unboosted Surf. Considering it usually gets one or more KOs, I'm surprised is doesn't see more play.

Quite simply there are a lot of sets that function fantastically in today's Dragon/Steel orientated metagame that are simply not used very much. The top OUs are top for a reason, but there are plenty of other solid options when team building.

 

[IcyMan28]

Suspect: Any Pokémon, move or clause that respectively may benefit competitive standard or uber battle if moved or implemented elsewhere.

Anyone that supports the banning Stealth Rock must make it relevant to this definition of "suspect," provided by Jumpman in the Policy Review. That way we will be on the same term and, if it gets to that point, make coherent arguments here that can be used later should a suspect nomination round ensue.

From late 200-play to Emerald I tended to use non-standard teams. I did reasonably well. Yet there was no denying the raw power of a Gyarados or a Salamence. Those metagames were a little more forgiving and less offense-oreientated than HGSS's mind you. These days the number of viable walls is much lower, I mean look at Cresselia's stats and it still can't wall reliably.

This. I definitely agree with the use of non-standard sets; they take it a step further from mere type-synergy team building and can open up sweeps, the most common examples being lures.

But these days I've been mostly using Swampert, Latias, Rotom-H, Scizor, Lucario, TTar, Zapdos, Heatran across my main teams and they simply work. They comprise my most successful teams (Heatran and Zapdos being my Rotom and Latias replacements for Wifi). My sets are pretty standard, I run Toxic on Swampert to good effect, and I'm EV'd for high bulk giving me more staying power than people expect which often catches people off guard, but otherwise very standard stuff.

That said when I use a less conventional team I don't really do that much worse, and I'd say that with some more intelligent team building (they weren't given as much though in the way of EV spread and coverage as my main OU team) these teams could be really potent.

To give an example another team of mine has TTar and Aggron. TTar provides the sand and that makes Aggron very hard to kill as Ground/Fighting attacks are reasonably easy to predict and Aggron has lots of HP, huge Defense and nice SpDef in the sand and nice resistances. If you get it in safely it is astoundingly dangerous. For example Head Smash OHKOs Suicune who can't OHKO it with an unboosted Surf. Considering it usually gets one or more KOs, I'm surprised is doesn't see more play.

I'm not really sure how you consider this to be "unconventional..." sand support is nearly staple for Aggron, and everyone knows that Aggron these days = Head Smash.

Quite simply there are a lot of sets that function fantastically in today's Dragon/Steel orientated metagame that are simply not used very much. The top OUs are top for a reason, but there are plenty of other solid options when team building.

Plenty of solid options indeed. SubPetaya Empoleon, SubPunch Breloom, etc, are all quite useful, and can serve niche roles and require the opponent to think on their feet much more so than when presented with the cookie cutter Scizor + Latias + Heatran, etc teams.

 

[ultimifier]

i agree with a lot of people on this, such as people just wanting to win and all...but then again there are also the pokes that don't get as much recognition that they should...Porygon2 is the best salamence counter..but its NU
Hariyama is an awesome T-tar counter..its UU
i really think people just need to start using the pokes that arent used as much if they want to change things...prove that you can defeat a team of the top 6 OU's witha bunch of NU's and UU's

Porygon 2 switched in. Salamence used draco meteor. Porygon 2 got fucked.

Porygon 2 is a DD mence counter. He is a horrible switch in for Mix Mence. Cresselia is the best salamence counter there is. Heck, even a bulky gyarados is a better switch in to Salamence than porygon 2 is

 

[Veles]

Stealth Rock will never be banned. Far too many people will debate that it is not broken and it will continue to be present in the metagame. Personally, I believe that it should be tested, but not enough people believe that for it to even be tested, from what I've seen. I think that the metagame could perhaps be a better place without it, but it would certainly shake a lot of things up. (Like the aforementioned Salamence.)

As for the metagame. Nearly every metagame centralizes at one point or another, sure it can change, but it centralizes in another way once the dust settles. Every competitive game will settle into what they consider "the best" until something, either an external force (game mechanic) or internal force (the "finding something better") forces it to shift.

Currently, OU has been focused around a certain set of Pokémon since Platinum (at least), and after then it eventually shifted into the 6 or Pokémon we see today. If there's anything wrong with that? Probably not, from the stand point of a competitive game, using the best is how you win. It's just how it goes.

In Yugioh a certain decktype will rise above the others until a counter is found or something more broken is released into the metagame or something is banned. In Dota, certain groups of heroes are picked/banned until something upsets that balance.

Personally, I've been looking into the UU/LC metagame more, simply because the OU one has been relatively uninteresting.

 

[cantab]

Porygon 2 switched in. Salamence used draco meteor. Porygon 2 got fucked.

Porygon 2 is a DD mence counter. He is a horrible switch in for Mix Mence. Cresselia is the best salamence counter there is. Heck, even a bulky gyarados is a better switch in to Salamence than porygon 2 is

Porygon2's strength is being able to deal with common sets on a fair few Pokemon with rather different typing. Name something else that can stop Gyarados, Salamence, Heatran, Vaporeon, Jolteon, maybe Electivire? True, it can't deal with all sets those Pokemon run, but Porygon2's hardly the only thing to suffer that problem.

It's true that against any specific Pokemon Porygon2's probably not the best counter. But it's quite versatile. I think it's probably best finding places a sixth member, if you need to counter some of the things it can. Or if you just want insurance. You might have Gyara and Mence already handled, but it's often good to have a back-up way to deal with such threats. Porygon2 can do general walling/tanking too.

 

[M BLADE]

I think that Rhyperior is also a counter to Salamence. With Sandstorm and the right evs, it can take a Draco Meteor+Outrage(stronger than Earthquake due to Solid Rock), or a DD Outrage. Then go with Stone Edge or Avalanche for a clean OHKO.

 

[cantab]

Of course Rhyperior won't take a Hydro Pump. If Rhyperior becomes popular as a Mence counter, DDMence will just switch to carrying Hydro Pump over Fire Blast.
Also Stone Edge is on the inaccurate side. Does Rock Slide get the OHKO, and does Avalanche if Mence DD's on the turn - and if not, does twice DD'd Mence take out Rhyperior?
In any case, Rhyperior just screams "come here grass / water user".

Of course, that counts as 'upsetting the metagame'. And taking Hydro Pump means Skarmory whirlwinds Mence away.

 

[ultimifier]

Porygon2's strength is being able to deal with common sets on a fair few Pokemon with rather different typing. Name something else that can stop Gyarados, Salamence, Heatran, Vaporeon, Jolteon, maybe Electivire? True, it can't deal with all sets those Pokemon run, but Porygon2's hardly the only thing to suffer that problem.

what's with all this praise of porygon 2, he is not a good pokemon. He is NU for a reason. And if you think he can stop all of those pokemon, wow, just wow.

First off, who cares what he does to electrivire, no one good uses it so it doesnt really matter. Plus the majority of people who use it use that stupid all physical set which destroys porygon 2.
How does it "stop" vaporeon?? It switches in and the best case scenario is porygon healing 25%. He has recover so that just doesnt matter anyways.
Porygon switching into salamence = dumb. If it draco meteors you have essentially traded a pokemon for 20% on mixmence. Don't forget that Mix mence is more popular than DD mence iirc.
Many top players are using sub heatran as a lure to take out bulky waters. Porygon 2 switching into sub heatran is a gift to your opponent. Its like hey heatran, make a sub that I cant break and proceed to get free toxics on my team.

tl/dr porygon 2 sucks.

 

[rvrstar12]

what's with all this praise of porygon 2, he is not a good pokemon. He is NU for a reason. And if you think he can stop all of those pokemon, wow, just wow.

First off, who cares what he does to electrivire, no one good uses it so it doesnt really matter. Plus the majority of people who use it use that stupid all physical set which destroys porygon 2.
How does it "stop" vaporeon?? It switches in and the best case scenario is porygon healing 25%. He has recover so that just doesnt matter anyways.
Porygon switching into salamence = dumb. If it draco meteors you have essentially traded a pokemon for 20% on mixmence. Don't forget that Mix mence is more popular than DD mence iirc.
Many top players are using sub heatran as a lure to take out bulky waters. Porygon 2 switching into sub heatran is a gift to your opponent. Its like hey heatran, make a sub that I cant break and proceed to get free toxics on my team.

tl/dr porygon 2 sucks.

actually...porygon2 doesn't suck.. he's a great poke...
i've used him since i started battling competitively, and he has not let me down once... not against any salamence...period...
plus its an awesome counter to things like choiced heatran and other pokes like jolteon and vaporeon...
trace is a great ability and proygon2 uses to its fullest potential

 

[M BLADE]

Of course Rhyperior won't take a Hydro Pump. If Rhyperior becomes popular as a Mence counter, DDMence will just switch to carrying Hydro Pump over Fire Blast.
Also Stone Edge is on the inaccurate side. Does Rock Slide get the OHKO, and does Avalanche if Mence DD's on the turn - and if not, does twice DD'd Mence take out Rhyperior?
In any case, Rhyperior just screams "come here grass / water user".

Of course, that counts as 'upsetting the metagame'. And taking Hydro Pump means Skarmory whirlwinds Mence away.

The same argument about Stone Edge being innacurate can be said about Hydro Pump, so i don't know what's your point there.

what's with all this praise of porygon 2, he is not a good pokemon. He is NU for a reason. And if you think he can stop all of those pokemon, wow, just wow.

First off, who cares what he does to electrivire, no one good uses it so it doesnt really matter. Plus the majority of people who use it use that stupid all physical set which destroys porygon 2.
How does it "stop" vaporeon?? It switches in and the best case scenario is porygon healing 25%. He has recover so that just doesnt matter anyways.
Porygon switching into salamence = dumb. If it draco meteors you have essentially traded a pokemon for 20% on mixmence. Don't forget that Mix mence is more popular than DD mence iirc.
Many top players are using sub heatran as a lure to take out bulky waters. Porygon 2 switching into sub heatran is a gift to your opponent. Its like hey heatran, make a sub that I cant break and proceed to get free toxics on my team.

tl/dr porygon 2 sucks.

See? That mentality is that keeps the metagame far away from being "upsetted". Most people are set on using only the top pokes, and can't give a slight chance to other pokes tha can be really useful in OU.
If i say how Floatzel is great in OU, they'll say "Gyarados is better". Even if they don't have the same role(one uses DD. Other uses Bulk Up and it's faster.) The thing is that Floatzel ties with Starmie and ouspeeds Latias, Gengar, Infernape and friends without need of setting itself up.
Of course Gyarados is better(bulkier and the flying type), but saying Floatzel is useless just because there's Gyarados there is stupid. Since Floatzel does a different thing than Gyara even if they look alike(sweeping).
Just a examle.

 

[cantab]

EDIT: we have a Porygon2 thread. Let's stop discussing it here.

The same argument about Stone Edge being innacurate can be said about Hydro Pump, so i don't know what's your point there.

I'm thinking more in the case of standard Mence, WITHOUT Hydro Pump. If Rhyperior misses with Stone Edge, it takes a third hit from whatever Salamence is using. I'm not sure it can survive that. Basically, I'm asking which is better in this case - Rock Slide or Stone Edge?

 

[pastel]

How to beat it?? that's just simple....just battle alot, specially against the best, so like that you'll see what they have and see what you have to counter, because people like to copy the best to be the best themselves, and if the best try something, everyone will try it.

 

[Lite]

There is no way of limiting the effects on new threats or old threats on the everchanging metagame. The metagame will always adapt to the new environment like most large enterprises in the world such as the stock market or poloics. This everchanging game makes Pokemon never become too predictable or lose it's ability to be fun. As player's needs and wants change so does the metagame to keep things intresting.

 

[M BLADE]

I'm thinking more in the case of standard Mence, WITHOUT Hydro Pump. If Rhyperior misses with Stone Edge, it takes a third hit from whatever Salamence is using. I'm not sure it can survive that. Basically, I'm asking which is better in this case - Rock Slide or Stone Edge?

Avalanche. If it's the standard mixed one(and even the DD one) it WILL attack, making Avalanche a 120 BP attack coming from a 347 atk(zero evs and a positive nature). Enough to easily KO Salamence.

 

[cantab]

What do you mean, "it WILL attack". It's being controlled by a player. If it's not already locked into Outrage, then the sensible thing to do is switch out. Anyone who attacks Rhyperior with Salamence either doesn't know Rhyperior's a danger, or has decided to sacrifice Mence.

That said, Avalanche probably OHKOs with that attack value even if Salamence doesn't attack, doing 310-364 damage (and certainly OHKOs if Salamance has taken SR, LO, or weather damage.) So you're right that Avalanche is the best move.

Rock Slide is probably second best, doing 289-340, enough to KO with SR damage. If you're running both, I guess you have to figure out whether the switch-in if there is one is more likely to be an ice resist or a rock resist.

Rhyperior can't come in on Salamence that's already danced though. But then again, not much can until it Outrages (at which point you can switch in a steel.)

 

[M BLADE]

It can. How it can't come on Sala that used DD? A DD Outrage won't KO Rhyperior. Rhyperior can come in on DD or a straight Outrage and Avalanche if it stays in(most people feel confident that they can KO Rhyperior, keeping Salamence in... a error)
And EQ does less... even if 90% uses it thinking it does more.
And Rhyperior without Stone Edge is lame. No matter if it's less accurate than Rock Slide, it should always be used on Rhyperior.

Oh yes: every thing we're discussing here can be said about Dragonite as well. Switching speed for survivability.

 

[MetaGross66]

Okay, firstly, regirock is better suited for this job as it has higher defenses to take those hits better, is 2x weak to hydro pump (better than rhyperior), has a higher special defense stat, and a higher defense stat. It also KOs Salamence with rock slide with no EV investment and a neutral nature after SR damage, I believe. Rest-talk curse regi also keeps you in a good position for the rest of the match, as it can serve as a last stat up poke, and as long as you have a gliscor to keep skarmory and co., as well as lucario away, you're good. I've tried it and it's really effective at dealing with mixmence even after SR damage.

 

[cantab]

It can. How it can't come on Sala that used DD? A DD Outrage won't KO Rhyperior. Rhyperior can come in on DD or a straight Outrage and Avalanche if it stays in(most people feel confident that they can KO Rhyperior, keeping Salamence in... a error)
And EQ does less... even if 90% uses it thinking it does more.
And Rhyperior without Stone Edge is lame. No matter if it's less accurate than Rock Slide, it should always be used on Rhyperior.

After a Dragon Dance, LO Salamence Outrages Rhyperior as it switches in, and Outrages again, killing Rhyperior before it can attack. Earthquake still gets the 2HKO, and IS thus the better choice for Mence. Without an Orb the most defensive Rhyperior has about a 50% chance of survival.

Rhyperior can switch in ON the Dragon Dance, but not after. Of course it can revenge kill, but frankly there are far better revenge killers.

Name something that Rhyperior can OHKO or 2HKO with Stone Edge but not with Rock Slide. Bear in mind that if you're relying on it to 2HKO, it's going to fail 34% of the time, even taking into account the chance of a crit. Rock slide has half the chance of failing to 2HKO, 19% (ignoring flinch because Rhyperior's too slow to flinch anything.)

 

[Orik]

What if we created a new tier; One where the top 2 pokemon from last month are banned for 2 months, and the top 3rd-6th are banned for one month?