Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Rasengan777]

The only reason to ever run it is if you're scared of sub ogre, which I don’t think is that common. Maybe people abuse it on ladder, not sure. I personally haven’t seen it anywhere and feel like it’s a sub-par set. I’m not trying to be elitist, but what I gather from this thread is that people just post (and sometimes agree with each other) without thinking much over it. I feel like this could in fact be harmful to new players, as they gather false believes about the tier.

As for the post right above me, I feel like from what I’ve read you’re doing exactly what you call “elitism” without being elitist. The zygarde posts where as far of a cry from productive and valuable as anything. Also to adress the ferro not being a xern check, this claim is false. It’s not a geoxern check, it checks about every other set out there, apart from something like the very uncommon hp fire pixie plate. Possibly hp fire specs as well, but it would require some predicting to get rid of it.

As to sum it all up:

It’s fine to post but please think about what you’re saying. If you’re not sure feel free to ask any staff member or someone you feel is more knowledgable about the tier on ps smogon or discord. And if you decide you don’t want to, at least phrase it in an asking manner instead of stating it as truth. It avoids empty discussions and misinformation for newer players. And “discussing” stuff like the reg zygarde analysis is about as pointless as arguing over wether to spell it with or without a capital letter.

You literally just did what you said for people not to do. You said to not post unless you don't know what you're talking about. But literally in the paragraph before you said oh i don't think that that's a set but idk because i don't play ladder. I think it's trash so don't use it. Like bro, smh.
Bullet seed ferro is so you win almost every stall war, you have a better matchup against sub ogre and sub arc ground, and literally does the same thing as power whip but better and it can't miss. Undeclared's posts desribes some other things about your posts too.
Don't be so toxic, arrogant, and acting like you're better than everyone if you're spreading the wrong information.

 

[LucosDiCampos]

You literally just did what you said for people not to do. You said to not post unless you don't know what you're talking about. But literally in the paragraph before you said oh i don't think that that's a set but idk because i don't play ladder. I think it's trash so don't use it. Like bro, smh.
Bullet seed ferro is so you win almost every stall war, you have a better matchup against sub ogre and sub arc ground, and literally does the same thing as power whip but better and it can't miss. Undeclared's posts desribes some other things about your posts too.
Don't be so toxic, arrogant, and acting like you're better than everyone if you're spreading the wrong information.

I wasn't going to respond but I guess I can take only so many call-outs, not getting baited into this again though. After talking it over with some other users I do think bullet seed has a niche in the metagame, as it can PP stall goth and non-wisp Msableye (which is for Yveltal I guess?). But since you can run shed shell as well and just escape if you're that worried about getting trapped, I don't think it's worth justifying it over power whip, at least not in every scenario. As for you saying it literally does the same but better, that's as far from the truth as possible. To refer to a conversation that took place in the ubers discord:

Spoiler

Hack yesterday at 12:47
Why doesnt whip ferro
Check ogre as well as bullet
What am i missingb
Also whats mm2 om abt with bullet seed vs goth n sab
Idgi
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:48
Miss chance Vs sub ogre I think
Hack yesterday at 12:48
Buh huh
The expected dmg is still lower than seed bomb
Why not run that then
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:49
Damage after breaking sub
Hack yesterday at 12:49
The chance of that not happening is larger than pwhip miss
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:50
Idr the sub ogre spread to tank gyro behind sub
Hack yesterday at 12:50
Wat
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:51
But pretty sure 2 hits at most are needed to break sub
In sm there was a spread so gyro doesn't break ogre sub
Hack yesterday at 12:51
Theres a 1/3 chance
It gets 2 hits
Meaning its a 1/3 chance u wont get added dmg from running it
That chance is larger than pwhip missing
Why would u not run whip
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:53
I thought it was
3 and 4 hits have same odds, 1 and 5 same
Hack yesterday at 12:53
No lol
1/3 1/3 1/6 1/6
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:53
So always thought it's 2/10 and 3/10
Ohh
Hack yesterday at 12:54
2 3 4 5 hits respective chances
Avg base power is 79.2

Since both pokemon can't really do much to it unless they get to set-up at least once, and neither sub groundceus nor primal Kyogre have any form of recovery, you basically only need to hit power whip 3-4 times in those situations, assuming they're even at full to begin with. And in this situation, you can usually even afford to miss one out of those on Pogre, depending on the situation. Bullet Seed's base-power overall is lower, and literally THE ONLY reasons to run it is if you don't want to run shed shell and still not want to lose to gothitelle, and if you're afraid of missing your whip vs sub groundceus, and sub pogre, both unorthodox and uncommon sets. On top of this, if you only get 2 hits, there's a chance of the groundceus sub not breaking, so in this scenario (although the odds are slim), it's not fully guarantueed to break either.

As for Gyro Ferrothorn being worse than Bullet Seed, mono Bullet seed allows you to a multitude of Mgars, and allow threats to be switched in that can just U-turn or switch out when you leech, when you are forced to protect. I'm sure there's even more to it than that like not being able to check things like Specs Xerneas and a multitude of other pokemon, but I haven't looked into it that much.

I also want to note that ever since XY has passed, (one could even argue early oras to a degree) that afterwards, ladder has no longer been an accurate representation of the state of the meta. This applies to the current one too. Before I get shit for "acting arrogant and elite" again, I'm not calling out people who're playing on ladder, the more power to ya. But for accurate metagame representation I'd refer to seasonals, other USM tours on forums, and possibly even upl (although those can be tricky, since sometimes people try to cteam. I think overall people rely moreso on overall good match-up, which is why I say "possibly even upl").

As for stating nonsense as truth and sticking with it instead of admitting its wrongs:

Ferro still checks spout/sub ogre with bullet seed, it deserves it's place in A-

On what Planet does Bullet Seed ferro make ANY difference in checking Spout Pogre? It still can't switch-into it all the same. As for damage output, as established before, the average base power of Power Whip is higher. But this should be irrelevant in the case of Spout Pogre to begin with.

I'm legit not responding here anymore, so feel free to drag my name through the mud all the same, I'd say that's the "toxic" and "arrogant" behaviour you so seem to oppose. I'd say it's been a pleasure viability rankings, but it really hasn't. Peace.

 

[Ladder Jesus]

I wasn't going to respond but I guess I can take only so many call-outs, not getting baited into this again though. After talking it over with some other users I do think bullet seed has a niche in the metagame, as it can PP stall goth and non-wisp Msableye (which is for Yveltal I guess?). But since you can run shed shell as well and just escape if you're that worried about getting trapped, I don't think it's worth justifying it over power whip, at least not in every scenario. As for you saying it literally does the same but better, that's as far from the truth as possible. To refer to a conversation that took place in the ubers discord:

Spoiler

Hack yesterday at 12:47
Why doesnt whip ferro
Check ogre as well as bullet
What am i missingb
Also whats mm2 om abt with bullet seed vs goth n sab
Idgi
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:48
Miss chance Vs sub ogre I think
Hack yesterday at 12:48
Buh huh
The expected dmg is still lower than seed bomb
Why not run that then
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:49
Damage after breaking sub
Hack yesterday at 12:49
The chance of that not happening is larger than pwhip miss
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:50
Idr the sub ogre spread to tank gyro behind sub
Hack yesterday at 12:50
Wat
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:51
But pretty sure 2 hits at most are needed to break sub
In sm there was a spread so gyro doesn't break ogre sub
Hack yesterday at 12:51
Theres a 1/3 chance
It gets 2 hits
Meaning its a 1/3 chance u wont get added dmg from running it
That chance is larger than pwhip missing
Why would u not run whip
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:53
I thought it was
3 and 4 hits have same odds, 1 and 5 same
Hack yesterday at 12:53
No lol
1/3 1/3 1/6 1/6
SparksBlade yesterday at 12:53
So always thought it's 2/10 and 3/10
Ohh
Hack yesterday at 12:54
2 3 4 5 hits respective chances
Avg base power is 79.2

Since both pokemon can't really do much to it unless they get to set-up at least once, and neither sub groundceus nor primal Kyogre have any form of recovery, you basically only need to hit power whip 3-4 times in those situations, assuming they're even at full to begin with. And in this situation, you can usually even afford to miss one out of those, depending on the situation. Bullet Seed's base-power overall is lower, and literally THE ONLY reasons to run it is if you don't want to run shed shell and still not want to lose to gothitelle, and if you're afraid of missing your whip vs sub groundceus, and sub pogre, both unorthodox and uncommon sets. On top of this, if you only get 2 hits, there's a chance of the groundceus sub not breaking, so in this scenario (although the odds are slim), it's not fully guarantueed to break either.

As for Gyro Ferrothorn being worse than Bullet Seed, mono Bullet seed allows you to a multitude of Mgars, and allow threats to be switched in that can just U-turn or switch out when you leech, when you are forced to protect. I'm sure there's even more to it than that like not being able to check things like Specs Xerneas and a multitude of other pokemon, but I haven't looked into it that much.

I also want to note that ever since XY has passed, (one could even argue early oras to a degree) that afterwards, ladder has no longer been an accurate representation of the state of the meta. This applies to the current one too. Before I get shit for "acting arrogant and elite" again, I'm not calling out people who're playing on ladder, the more power to ya. But for accurate metagame representation I'd refer to seasonals, other USM tours on forums, and possibly even upl (although those can be tricky, since sometimes people try to cteam. I think overall people rely moreso on overall good match-up, which is why I say "possibly even upl").

As for stating nonsense as truth and sticking with it instead of admitting the wrongs in it:



On what Planet does Bullet Seed ferro make ANY difference in checking Spout Pogre? It still can't switch-into it all the same. As for damage output, as established before, the average base power of Power Whip is higher. But this should be irrelevant in the case of Spout Pogre to begin with.

I'm legit not responding here anymore, so feel free to drag my name through the mud all the same, I'd say that's the "toxic" and "arrogant" behaviour you so seem to oppose. I'd say it's been a pleasure viability rankings, but it really hasn't. Peace.

Preach! As someone who has topped the ladder on a few occasions in the past without having to resort to cheese stall teams, I used to be under the illusion that ladder was an accurate representation of the metagame. After being competitively tutored by Mysterious M, I learned the harsh reality that the ladder does not even reasonably represent the state of the metagame. Some of the top ladder players bring Sticky Webs and weird sets (like Dual Dance Ultra Necrozma and Choice Band Marshadow) to name a few, to essentially CTeam others and beat them. The amount of prep required for tour games is a more accurate representation of the current metagame. While laddering reflects a certain degree of consistency of the player, I don't think it is correlated with a player's skill ceiling (i.e. not to self-roast myself, but I got knocked out of Ubers SSNL very quickly and peaked the ladder at least twice in the past three months).

As for the role of Ferrothorn, having used both Bullet Seed and Power Whip in the past, this is what I can safely say: Ferrothorn is a shaky check to Water Spout Variants of Primal Kyogre. It can more reliably check Timid Variants of Spout Ogre, but straight up loses to Modest Variants with a bit of chip. For this reason alone, it almost certainly needs to run Power Whip at this point in time. In fact, Ferrothorn Teams need to run Primal Groudon as back up insurance against Spout Variants of Ogre, it is just that devastating at the moment.Bullet Seed is optimal to use when battling Sub CM Variants of Primal Kyogre. However, since this is a very rare set, Power Whip will almost always outdamage Bullet Seed (unless the latter move hits 5 times, which is extremely unlikely). Furthermore, as the Premier Spiker of Ubers, Ferrothorn suffers from a case of 4MSS. It somehow needs to fit Spikes, Power Whip, Leech Seed, Protect, Gyro Ball, Toxic, etc. in one set. I think Protect Ferrothorn is not the way to go at the moment, because if a player predicts incorrectly, letting Primal Kyogre reach +1 almost guarantees the loss of some mon. As far as being a Xern check, Ferrothorn can check any variant of Xerneas that doesn't carry Focus Blast or HP Fire. It can whittle down Xern with Toxic and Leech Seed and proceed to finish it off with a well timed Power Whip. In summation, Power Whip > Bullet Seed for Ferrothorn at the moment. The Goth/M-Sab arguments are trivial since neither of those mons are even seen much anymore. Still, Ferrothorn is a decent Ogre check at best, not to mention having next to zero offensive presence while getting pressured by far too many things, like Primal Groudon, Ho-Oh, and DD Zyg, to name a few, while failing to adequately check Geomancy variants of Xerneas - I would nominate Ferrothorn dropping to the upper parts of B+ (probably above Toxapex).

Something I've recently wanted to discuss is ranking the viability of certain sets. As a relatively experienced player, I have always assumed the sets listed on the Smogon Analysis are listed by relative viability. Some sets are clearly becoming more popular and noteworthy in viability than others. At the moment, my favorite Primal Groudon and Primal Kyogre sets are those that can reliably spam their 150 BP moves and proceed to wallbreak/dent things rather than outright sweep (in the case of the former). While Primal Kyogre may not even be near a S-Ranked Mon, I think it's Water Spout set deserves to be ranked as a S-Ranked Set (it's just obscenely powerful and can be extremely challenging to play around). Perhaps in the future, the sets of all of the currently ranked mons can also be ranked. To give an example, Xerneas is currently ranked as an A+ mon, but neither its Z-Geomancy or Defensive Sets see much use (the only benefit the latter set has over Fairyceus is access to Aromatherapy). These latter sets would then be most likely B-Ranked. I think new players having a general idea of the viability of certain sets will allow them to better pick a mon because understanding the viability of a set is in my opinion just as important as understanding the viability of a mon. To give an analogy, in card games, its not just about knowing how to use a card, but also realizing when is the most opportune time to play it.

To conclude this rather long post, I would like to recap its fundamental essence. This Ferrothorn argument should end, Power Whip > Bullet Seed because Spout Primal Kyogre and Mixed Liquidation are the two most popular variants at the moment. Ferrothorn needs to drop to B+ because it can't reliably stand up to Modest Variants of Water Spout Primal Kyogre, and is heavily pressured by a plethora of other offensive threats that plague the tier. Finally, the viability of sets should be ranked, as this would give an additional perspective to new players. Peace.

 

[pulsar512b]

(i.e. not to self-roast myself, but I got knocked out of Ubers SSNL very quickly and peaked the ladder at least twice in the past three months).

This should be e.g., but your point stands. The idea of set viability would be good in a perfect world, but simply put, we don't have the time, and it might even confuse some newbies.

 

[The Exposer]

This should be e.g., but your point stands. The idea of set viability would be good in a perfect world, but simply put, we don't have the time, and it might even confuse some newbies.

I agree with this but I think the viability of sets should still be useful for future generations of Ubers. Carry on!

 

[orch]

Pp stalling with bullet seed beats more branches than power whipping. It really is a better move to use even if it seems ridiculous for the "conventional" mindset for a lack of better word.

It's also notable that it's almost always better to click leech seed or spikes for punish over using attack moves. So, the fact that power whip has greater power output is highly irrelevant imo.

Bullet seed and power whip is equally effective against kyogre except for subogre which BS is better.

Cm and support groundceus loses to either move. SD groundceus beats you anyways.

You don't click either move to beat fairies. At best, it's filler to pass turns, which BS is better since it has more Pp.

Gengar doesn't care about your shitty grass moves. It's a question of whether if you have gyro or not that determines the match up.

Going back to the pp stall thing--the prominence of Gira A stalls is forcing team builders to be more creative with the move selections. Raw power output is not sufficient to beat stalls now. The number of pp must be considered or you will lose in preview.

 

[Bread Sandwich]

Time to make a dumb "It's good in ag so I assume it's good in ubers" Nom

UR->C-

Slurpuff has been a staple on plenty of anything goes webs teams for its ability set set up webs reliably

Slurpuff also takes advantage of the unburden ability with the focus sash to allow it to outspeed opponents to possibly allow for an easier time setting up webs

Access to magic coat allows it to prevent taunt and use your opponents hazard setter to your advantage

Slurpuff also gets the choice between yawn and endeavor to either put a pokemon to sleep or cripple an opponent

The Set

Slurpuff @ Focus Sash
Ability: Unburden
Level: 97
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Sticky Web
- Endeavor/Yawn
- Dazzling Gleam
- Magic Coat

Hope you guys have a nice day and that my nom isn't too stupid

Edit: Level 97 allows it to get down to its sash easier

 

[Rarycaris]

Edit: Level 97 allows it to get down to its sash easier

I'm curious why that level specifically? Does it survive an important hit? Does level 97 put it at an important speed benchmark?

 

[Bread Sandwich]

I'm curious why that level specifically? Does it survive an important hit? Does level 97 put it at an important speed benchmark?

Level 97 allows it to get down to its sash from a support arceus Judgment while also being able to outspeed +2 standard geoxern after unburden

 

[Guard]

0 SpA Pixie Plate Arceus-Fairy Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Slurpuff: 264-312 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0 SpA Earth Plate Arceus-Ground Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Slurpuff: 264-312 (89.1 - 105.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
You would need a maximum of level 91 to get what you re saying
0 SpA Splash Plate Arceus-Water Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Slurpuff: 282-333 (101.4 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

You didn't IV it right. It needs to have 0 IVs

 

[FookMeDadddy]

Hoe Where my boy Aegislash

 

[Oldamar999]

Hoe Where my boy Aegislash

Aegislash is C. that's where your boy is

 

[Guard]

Gonna swoop through the A ranks...

Ultra Necrozma Bottom of S >>> Top/2nd of S

I think we can all agree moving U-Necro up within its subrank, however nit-picky it may seem, is a more accurate representation of the current meta. If I remember correctly, U-Necro was initially moved to S because of its SD set which was nigh uncounterable in general and impossible to stop in Webs.

However, U-Necro has seen considerable experimentation since then, with an increased usage of Outrage instead of Edge/Sunsteel Strike, Calm Mind variants popping up every now and then and, most recently, the SR sets. All of these new sets add an extra layer of versatility and unpredictability to U-Necro, on top of the Dusk/Ultra predictions and the manoeuvring you need to do in order to mitigate its Z-move.

Meanwhile, even though both Dusk Mane (increased Spd-variants usage to combat Arc-Ground) and Gengar (Thunder to combat the rising Pogre) have continued to adapt to the meta, their viability ceiling has pretty much remained the same. U-Necro however is an even more ripened and flourished Pokémon compared to the time when it was first raised to S and undoubtedly possesses a much higher viability ceiling. Therefore, I think a U-Necro rise would be appropriate.

Mega Salamence A >>> Bottom of A+

Mega Salamence is seeing increased usage for its ability to easily customize its moveset and EVs to the wishes of its team, while also scaring out the featuring wallbreakers in the rising Dual Primal teams and giving Webs and certain hazard leads a very difficult time setting up. Its flagship DD Roost Double Edge set alone has the ability to slot in anything from Refresh, Defog, Façade, Substitute, Toxic and EQ. Forgoing DD for any of the aforementioned is also an option to create an offensive utility set and yet another possibility is a set with Body Slam and a defensive EV spread. Mega Salamence is a Pokémon that offers unique checking prowess and lots of utility while maintaining enormous offensive pressure, making it a very valuable glue pick in lots of builds. An A rank doesn’t give it the necessary credit.

Arceus Fairy A- >>> A

Fairyceus has seen a respected amount of usage in UPL with good sets finally popping up. Alongside the mandatory Judgement, Recover and SR (please do not run Defog) EP/Toxic/TW/WoW are all notorious utile options for the fourth moveslot. It’s undoubtedly one of the best Rockers in the tier because of its ability to annoy defoggers with Toxic and lay Rocks against Mega Sab. In addition to checking Salamence and Zygarde and practically countering Marshadow, it’s also the most reliable Yveltal check out there, which is crucial since Yveltal abuses everything these days with either its LO or Taunt-Toxic set. As a Supportceus, it currently stands shoulder to shoulder to Waterceus and Darkceus as far as viability is concerned in my eyes, if not surpassing them.

A few other noms I’m too lazy to write much about:

Arceus A >>> A- (I fail to compare it to any of the A mons. Provides no defensive utility at all, takes up the Arceus slot and fails to OHKO nearly everything)

Smeargle A- >>> B+ (Webs is taking a rest, so this should move down)

Mega Scizor A- >>> B+ (I feel like it’s rise was an overreaction to its initial tournament success. It hasn’t done anything relevant for a while and its position feels like it’s overestimated)

 

[jacksoras]

-> A+ Might be a bit controversial but I honestly think it is completely warranted. Pogre can bring sheer destruction when played well imo easily on the same level as say Xerneas or Yvetal. Its plethora of sets ranging from physical to cm spout to resttalk make it relatively unpredictable. A huge chunk of teams imo seem to rely on pdon as their sole proper pogre switch-in and neglect to consider that not only do physical variants 2hko it with eq but that if it comes in freely on pdon it forces it out (often netting a KO in the process). Respectable bulk also means it beats a lot of mons in 1v1 scenarios. In a metagame dominated by the Arceus formes, having the ability to 2hko all of them is invaluable. Although it functions differently to Arcues-normal, I would say it is objectively more viable (arceus-normal is hampered by the omnipresent marshadow and fails to ohko many threats at +2). Undeniably, it has its flaws in its rather middling speed and defence, but I would say what it offers more than makes up for it to rise to A+ as a meta-defining threat.

--> A Agreed with the above nom. I'd argue that the defensive prowess it offers is completely comparable to both Arceus-Water and Arceus-Dark. Alongside Arceus-Water, it is perhaps the best arceus-form at setting SR with its sr / toxic / judgment / recover set. CM / epower is also a substantial threat. Keeping Yvetal and Marshadow completely subdued is a huge boon as both are two of the most prominent offensive threats in the current metagame. Its substantial bulk means it can also be used as a check to a plethora of mons i.e. Zygarde, Mega Salamence etc. I think keeping Arceus-Fairy in A- alongside mons such as Mega-Scizor and Ferrothorn is an innacurate representation of the metagame. It would be far more at home in the A ranks alongside Arceus-Water and Arceus-Dark based on its defensive utility and SRing ability.

--> D Might seem a bit weird but I believe Celebi has enough of a niche to justify a D ranking. I can't get replays rn because the site is down but a set of recover / hp ice / epower / grass knot w/ groundium-z has carried its weight in almost every game I have used it in as a respectable glue / lure (the set I was running was 252+ SpA / enough speed to outspeed dusk mane / rest in hp). Groundium-Z epower OHKO's most variants of pdon and does a huge amount to non spdef dusk mane. Grass knot 2ohkos pogre and arceus-ground. Hidden power ice means celebi can function as a near-perfect zygarde-c check. It's pretty much a psuedo Arceus-Grass that lures in pdon without using an arceus-forme. This set is obviously only suited to a very niche group of teams that require a groudon lure and a check to a number of common threats in one i.e. pogre, arceus-ground and zygarde-c but don't want to use arceus-grass as their arceus form. It also happens to check pdon lacking fire coverage. Just thought I would put this nom out there!

 

[Nayrz]

Time to finally drop the post UPL update. The delay on this has been caused by a number of good things, firstly, the size of our team has increased massively with some fresh faces that proved themselves in the UPL. Welcome PurpleGatorade, skysolo14, Pearl, TDK, and byronthewellwell to the VR council! That brings our team to the following 11 members:

VR Council

Nayrz
Melee Mewtwo
Mysterious M
iry
Cynara
Exiline
PurpleGatorade
skysolo14
Pearl
TDK
byronthewellwell

Secondly, this VR update covered a LOT of nominations. While the size of the update list itself is pretty typical, we went over every nom mentioned so far along with internal discussions to cover what felt like half the metagame and see how we felt about their placements. Some changed, some were solidifed in their current ranking. Here's the list of mons that changed rank this update:

Ho-Oh: A- >> A (Bottom of A)
Mega Scizor: A- >> B+ (below Toxapex)
Naganadel: B >> B+ (above Arceus-Flying)
Smeargle: A- >> B+ (above Deoxys-A)
Rayquaza: B+ >> B (top of B)
Celesteela: B- >> B (below Rayquaza)
Deoxys-S: C+ >> B- (above Mega Sableye)
Mega Lopunny: C+ >> C- (top of C-)
Arceus-Poison: C >> C+ (above Tapu Lele)
Dialga: C >> C+ (below Arceus-Grass)

And here's the huge list of mons that were covered, but ultimately did not change ranking. Check out the sheet to see how this all came about! I'd recommend zooming out for better viewing.

Discussed

Yveltal
Ultra Necrozma
Arceus-Dragon
Arceus
Chansey
Magearna
Mega Gengar
Zygarde
Primal Kyogre
Rotom-W
Arceus-Water
Giratina-O
Skarmory
Arceus-Grass
Ferrothorn
Slurpuff
Mega Salamence
Arceus-Fairy

In relation to the thread, I've brought up a potential change to how we rank the mons that may come into play with the next VR update. In a nutshell, my suggestion is that VR internal ordering should only apply to the S and A ranks, switching B to D back to alphabetical ordering. This suggestion comes from the idea that S and A ranked mons tend to stand out among themselves to be comparable against each other in an overall metagame state, while the lower ranks are more about a general feeling of viability for niche mons that are team / player specific. This also helps to reduce inaccuracy in the long term and feel less tedious to our contributors. Feel free to comment on this yourselves if you have thoughts on the matter. Cheers for reading!

 

[Ronneberg]

To be honest, I could really see Naganadel being in the A- rank. Its Nasty Plot Dragonium Z set is ludicrously dangerous after a boost, threatening to sweep entire teams with its Dragon-Poison-Fire coverage and Beast Boost preventing enemy non-priority revenge killers from, well, revenge killing it. It's ludicrously underrated in my opinion.

 

[Zenithial]

ik my opinion doesn’t matter and VR posts most of the time mean nothing, but I may as well give my opinion on some possible VR changes because I have nothing better else to do honestly. I also know I’m really out of touch with Ubers atm but I think I know enough still to give some noms.

Arc Fairy: A- -> A

Agree with this nom as well. Being trapped by M gar doesn’t warrant it being lower on the VR. Firstly, CM EP variants don’t get trapped by Mega Gengar at all on the switch as Gar is OHKO’d by EP at +1. Secondly, pursuit support such as pursuit marshadow, ttar (or dare I say pursuit m sciz) allows arc fairy to avoid getting trapped. In addition, arc water is another passive mon in A that gets trapped by Mega Gengar if it lacks Judgment (which is generally does). Arceus-Fairy can also run a Wisp set if Dusk Mane/Ultra really is that frightening to the team. Overall, Arc Fairy has too much utility and darks/marsh are too prominent to let Arceus-Fairy fall down to A- alongside ferro and mag.

Arc Flying B+ -> B

I don’t know why this pokemon is so high. It offers no defensive utility, it’s weak to SR and is completely one dimensional. It struggles to find opportunities to set up, and when it does it gets stopped by Dusk Mane, ultra, mag, ho-oh variants (band or ww) and even if it gets passed all that Marshadow can just come and steal all your boosts anyway. Extremely unreliable and is hardly ever used, definitely does not warrant B+.

Ditto B -> B-

I can kind of get why ditto is B, but overall is too unreliable and can be deadweight in some matchups to warrant B. It’s only good MU is against HO, so you’re already playing 5-6 vs stall and balance which sucks. On top of that even against HO by no means does it auto win. Firstly, you’re forced to make predictions most of the time, and secondly your bulk is extremely limited and priority will hurt a lot. Even if you do make your prediction right you leave yourself vulnerable next turn if you’re locked into a move an opponent can take advantage of. There are much better options to take on HO, such as Marsh and Gira O.

Ribombee C -> UR / Slurpuff UR -> C maybe?

Ribombee generally speaking is hot trash. Gets shut down by taunt, is set up fodder for sub mons and relies on hitting stun spore to stop set up, which is only 75% acc. The only niche as mentioned is a webs setter that can beat sableye. Off the bat I don’t think this one particular niche is enough to warrant a rank at all. Mega Sableye is B- and isn’t prevalent at all in ubers, and secondly getting up webs against stall isn’t that much of a priority in the first place. However, if beating m sableye IS enough to warrant a rank, then Slurpuff is a way better option to Ribombee as AnythingGoesLegend mentioned. It offers magic coat and yawn, which at least help against taunt users and gives you a 50 50 rather than nothing. Yawn is also more reliable as it can’t miss like stun spore can. Overall a much better option than Ribombee if a web setter that beats Mega Sableye is rank worthy.

Naga
In regards to Naga, I think it should stay at B+. It’s nowhere near consistent enough to join the likes of Ferrothorn/Mag/Lunala/Arc fairy who are all esteemed and well established Pokémon in the ubers meta. Naga offers very little against HO, as it is fragile, can’t set up and loses to priority. Against balance it can put in some work, however predictions are necessary most of the time between attacking and using NP, and priority is still an issue so against balance it’s too inconsistent and doesn’t always work. While it is insane against stall, I don’t think stall is that good in Ubers per se, though I’m aware it can perform very well on ladder and in tours. Regardless, being only primarily a stall killer isn’t enough to warrant A-.

Final thoughts

In regards to using alphabetical order for B and below, it does make sense as I don’t think Pokemon in the lower ranks compete against each other quite so much as mentioned and they are also of a lower priority than that of the higher part of the VR. Although I will just say with so many council members, I don’t see why you can’t put in the extra effort to rank B and below properly, between everybody it should be doable, but that’s just my opinion. Most of the VR is fine, I like the top half of the VR a lot except for Arc Fairy’s placement, these were just some lowkey noms to try and make VR a little tidier and neater, to me at least.

 

[Mysterious M]

ik my opinion doesn’t matter and VR posts most of the time mean nothing, but I may as well give my opinion on some possible VR changes because I have nothing better else to do honestly. I also know I’m really out of touch with Ubers atm but I think I know enough still to give some noms.

Arc Fairy: A- -> A

Agree with this nom as well. Being trapped by M gar doesn’t warrant it being lower on the VR. Firstly, CM EP variants don’t get trapped by Mega Gengar at all on the switch as Gar is OHKO’d by EP at +1. Secondly, pursuit support such as pursuit marshadow, ttar (or dare I say pursuit m sciz) allows arc fairy to avoid getting trapped. In addition, arc water is another passive mon in A that gets trapped by Mega Gengar if it lacks Judgment (which is generally does). Arceus-Fairy can also run a Wisp set if Dusk Mane/Ultra really is that frightening to the team. Overall, Arc Fairy has too much utility and darks/marsh are too prominent to let Arceus-Fairy fall down to A- alongside ferro and mag.

Arc Flying B+ -> B

I don’t know why this pokemon is so high. It offers no defensive utility, it’s weak to SR and is completely one dimensional. It struggles to find opportunities to set up, and when it does it gets stopped by Dusk Mane, ultra, mag, ho-oh variants (band or ww) and even if it gets passed all that Marshadow can just come and steal all your boosts anyway. Extremely unreliable and is hardly ever used, definitely does not warrant B+.

Ditto B -> B-

I can kind of get why ditto is B, but overall is too unreliable and can be deadweight in some matchups to warrant B. It’s only good MU is against HO, so you’re already playing 5-6 vs stall and balance which sucks. On top of that even against HO by no means does it auto win. Firstly, you’re forced to make predictions most of the time, and secondly your bulk is extremely limited and priority will hurt a lot. Even if you do make your prediction right you leave yourself vulnerable next turn if you’re locked into a move an opponent can take advantage of. There are much better options to take on HO, such as Marsh and Gira O.

Ribombee C -> UR / Slurpuff UR -> C maybe?

Ribombee generally speaking is hot trash. Gets shut down by taunt, is set up fodder for sub mons and relies on hitting stun spore to stop set up, which is only 75% acc. The only niche as mentioned is a webs setter that can beat sableye. Off the bat I don’t think this one particular niche is enough to warrant a rank at all. Mega Sableye is B- and isn’t prevalent at all in ubers, and secondly getting up webs against stall isn’t that much of a priority in the first place. However, if beating m sableye IS enough to warrant a rank, then Slurpuff is a way better option to Ribombee as AnythingGoesLegend mentioned. It offers magic coat and yawn, which at least help against taunt users and gives you a 50 50 rather than nothing. Yawn is also more reliable as it can’t miss like stun spore can. Overall a much better option than Ribombee if a web setter that beats Mega Sableye is rank worthy.

Naga
In regards to Naga, I think it should stay at B+. It’s nowhere near consistent enough to join the likes of Ferrothorn/Mag/Lunala/Arc fairy who are all esteemed and well established Pokémon in the ubers meta. Naga offers very little against HO, as it is fragile, can’t set up and loses to priority. Against balance it can put in some work, however predictions are necessary most of the time between attacking and using NP, and priority is still an issue so against balance it’s too inconsistent and doesn’t always work. While it is insane against stall, I don’t think stall is that good in Ubers per se, though I’m aware it can perform very well on ladder and in tours. Regardless, being only primarily a stall killer isn’t enough to warrant A-.

Final thoughts

In regards to using alphabetical order for B and below, it does make sense as I don’t think Pokemon in the lower ranks compete against each other quite so much as mentioned and they are also of a lower priority than that of the higher part of the VR. Although I will just say with so many council members, I don’t see why you can’t put in the extra effort to rank B and below properly, between everybody it should be doable, but that’s just my opinion. Most of the VR is fine, I like the top half of the VR a lot except for Arc Fairy’s placement, these were just some lowkey noms to try and make VR a little tidier and neater, to me at least.

Every opinion matters and every post is being considered bro, we legit go over every suggestion from the posts here! So keep this up.

 

[orch]

Idk where this misconception of ditto being deadweight against stall comes from. You can abuse utility moves to keep your ditto a live for essentially infinite turns, be a cleric, and be a defogger. Ditto is actually extremely strong against stall, but I will admit that it is incredibly boring to execute.

Keep Ditto where it is imo.

 

[pulsar512b]

Idk where this misconception of ditto being deadweight against stall comes from. You can abuse utility moves to keep your ditto a live for essentially infinite turns, be a cleric, and be a defogger. Ditto is actually extremely strong against stall, but I will admit that it is incredibly boring to execute.

Keep Ditto where it is imo.

And (assuming you can keep off rocks which should be ez given that u have 10 million defoggers to copy) u can pp stall them to a worst case scenario of a tie.

 

[Lasen]

Idk where this misconception of ditto being deadweight against stall comes from. You can abuse utility moves to keep your ditto a live for essentially infinite turns, be a cleric, and be a defogger. Ditto is actually extremely strong against stall, but I will admit that it is incredibly boring to execute.

Keep Ditto where it is imo.

Hard agree, everyone who says Ditto is a deadweight mon vs Stall hasn't ever seen it utilised correctly. I'd like to point out this and this replay which, albeit gen 6, show off the sheer prowess Ditto can have in dealing with stall that (almost) exclusively run passive Pokemon. It's not a free win in any match-up and I consider its placement as B very fair.

 

[DracoMaster Dab]

Posting my thoughts on some of the nominations discussed here as well posting my own.

Mega Latias C- to C+: Latias' ability to beat basically any P-Don set alone should justify a rise especially when the scary and hard to switch into Eruption set has become quite popular however, it has added bonuses of reliable recovery which a similar mon like Giratina-O lacks as well as access to Healing Wish which can be a scary proposition with some of the monstrous set up sweepers Ubers has. An example of it doing well in a tour can be seen here.

Mega Blaziken C+ to B-: This thing is in a way a physical version of Naganadel without the good stall match-up as it's a frail set up sweeper which can absolutely hammer bulky offense/balance teams. There isn't much that those kind of teams can do to combat it once it's set up apart from things like Tina-O or the aforementioned M-Lati. These qualities make it worthy of being at least in the same rank as Mega Lucario as Blaziken has a similar role which it performs better due to Speed Boost and better coverage.

Greninja UR to C+: HO teams with Greninja as the suicide spikes lead such as the one that was posted by obii on the RMT thread have seen a lot of success in tours recently and It's qualities such as a good speed tier,access to taunt and good MU vs other leads such as Smeargle allows it to justify it's slot. While I know the rules say that a mon generally has to have a skeleton or analysis before being ranked i think this can be exempt from that due to it being featured on team showcase.

Arceus-Fairy A- to A: I agree with this nom as it's ability to cover threats such as Marshadow,Yveltal,Zygarde and Salamence in one slot is ridiculous role compression and It has a fair amount of flexibility apart from what i consider to be the mandatory options of judgement/recover/earth power as you could run Status Move,CM or Rocks in the last slot further boosting it's utility to a team.

Arceus Flying B+ to B: I agree with this change as well.I think Zenithial covered it's flaws pretty well and i would also like to add that having an Arceus form on the BO teams that Flyceus best fits that covers neither Zygarde or Salamence creates a lot of team building problems.

 

[Ronneberg]

I know that I'm probably not known enough in the Ubers community but I'd really like to make the nomination of Zygarde-complete making it to S rank.

Zygarde-C A+ ---->

Zygarde-C S

I know that such kinds of nominations need a lot of explanation behind them, the general sets I want to talk about are offensive DD sets utilizing Glare and also a very physically defensive Rest-Talk set that's seen more and more on defensive balance and even stall sometimes.
Zygarde is capable of not only filling a various amount of offensive rolls with Thousand Arrows being hands down the best offensive move in the game, Extreme Speed being a way to revenge kill on the go and Dragon Tail or Outrage being either very strategy-dismantling or very powerful STAB moves to fill any gaps, Glare being the only way outside of Static to paralyze P-Don, opposing Zygarde and Arceus-Ground, as well as the entire rest of the tier not being electric types (and to be honest that's a ridiculously high amount), giving awesome utility for bulky- and hyper-offensive teams. Zygarde's so called "big boss" sets abusing Glare to safely set up with DD, Coil or even both are even able to capitalize on Glare themselves. Depending on the set, Zygarde is able to safely take on any Necrozma-Dusk-Mane or Ultra-Necrozma out there, with the Rest-Talk set being even more effective than any other, as well as P-Don sets not carrying HP-Ice, although these seem to have fallen out of proper relevancy. It can withstand Yveltal trying to beat it down and defensive sets can only be broken down by very specific threats and support Arceus forms carrying Ice Beam to hit Zygarde in its glaring weakness, ice type attacks. Rest-Talk Zygarde and Toxapex form the, in my opinion, best defensive core in the tier, giving great remembrance to the infamous Skarm-Bliss cores of the olden days. That core particularily stops setup sweepers like Xerneas and physical threats such as dual-dance P-Don and Mega Ray, a quality that simply can't be looked over. And while it is for example not as unpredictable as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, it shares huge amounts of characteristics with P-Don, being able to utilize a sheer infinite amount of viable EV spreads and all kinds of rolls.
The gist I'm trying to communicate is, that Zygarde can fill any roll you assign it to, it excels on stall, it excels on balance and it excels on offense with the very reliable Z- or pinch berry-Glare sets running around. It requires careful maneuvering in order to break it down and the optimal approach shifts with the set it is running, a quality that is shared across all the top-tier threats. I personally love it to bits, but I won't let that get in the way of an objective nomination. Yes, it does have weaknesses, but so does Ultra-Necrozma, so does Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and so does Primal Groudon. And I genuinely think that it's time to acknowledge its right to stand beside the big ones.

 

[Rasengan777]

I know that I'm probably not known enough in the Ubers community but I'd really like to make the nomination of Zygarde-complete making it to S rank.

View attachment 181934Zygarde-C A+ ---->View attachment 181935Zygarde-C S

I know that such kinds of nominations need a lot of explanation behind them, the general sets I want to talk about are offensive DD sets utilizing Glare and also a very physically defensive Rest-Talk set that's seen more and more on defensive balance and even stall sometimes.
Zygarde is capable of not only filling a various amount of offensive rolls with Thousand Arrows being hands down the best offensive move in the game, Extreme Speed being a way to revenge kill on the go and Dragon Tail or Outrage being either very strategy-dismantling or very powerful STAB moves to fill any gaps, Glare being the only way outside of Static to paralyze P-Don, opposing Zygarde and Arceus-Ground, as well as the entire rest of the tier not being electric types (and to be honest that's a ridiculously high amount), giving awesome utility for bulky- and hyper-offensive teams. Zygarde's so called "big boss" sets abusing Glare to safely set up with DD, Coil or even both are even able to capitalize on Glare themselves. Depending on the set, Zygarde is able to safely take on any Necrozma-Dusk-Mane or Ultra-Necrozma out there, with the Rest-Talk set being even more effective than any other, as well as P-Don sets not carrying HP-Ice, although these seem to have fallen out of proper relevancy. It can withstand Yveltal trying to beat it down and defensive sets can only be broken down by very specific threats and support Arceus forms carrying Ice Beam to hit Zygarde in its glaring weakness, ice type attacks. Rest-Talk Zygarde and Toxapex form the, in my opinion, best defensive core in the tier, giving great remembrance to the infamous Skarm-Bliss cores of the olden days. That core particularily stops setup sweepers like Xerneas and physical threats such as dual-dance P-Don and Mega Ray, a quality that simply can't be looked over. And while it is for example not as unpredictable as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, it shares huge amounts of characteristics with P-Don, being able to utilize a sheer infinite amount of viable EV spreads and all kinds of rolls.
The gist I'm trying to communicate is, that Zygarde can fill any roll you assign it to, it excels on stall, it excels on balance and it excels on offense with the very reliable Z- or pinch berry-Glare sets running around. It requires careful maneuvering in order to break it down and the optimal approach shifts with the set it is running, a quality that is shared across all the top-tier threats. I personally love it to bits, but I won't let that get in the way of an objective nomination. Yes, it does have weaknesses, but so does Ultra-Necrozma, so does Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and so does Primal Groudon. And I genuinely think that it's time to acknowledge its right to stand beside the big ones.

but zyg doesn't really excel on stall? or pinch berry sets? like i agree with your nomination just thought to point that out

 

[prikshit]

Hello All. While I Am Primarily UnderUsed Player And Am Loyal To That Tier Until Death, I Have Also Played Ubers A Lot Recently And Looking Through Viability Rankings I Have Some Suggestions:

- Arceus Ground to A - While The Offensive SD Set Is Very Good, It Is In My Opinion Overrated. I Have Noticed Bulky Yveltal (Both Non Scarf And Scarf) Picking Up A Lot In Usage Which Is Not Ideal For This Mon, In Addition To The Usual Beasts Such As Marshadow Roaming The Tier Hungry To Steal Boosts. It Is Simply Not As Good As It Once Was. Support Ground In My Opinion Is Even More Overrated As Heck And Most Smart Players Will Know How To Take Advantage Of This Mon Or Will Always Have A Pokemon To Take Advantage Of The Exploitable Coverage. Being Total Bait For Xerneas, P-Ogre, Arceus Water And Ho-Oh ETC Is Not Ideal.

- Lunala To B+ - In My Opinion The Only Way To Make This Girl Work Is For Specs To Be Used. A Horrid Defensive Typing For The Coverage Seen In Ubers Nullifies The Ability It Has, Not To Mention Just How Hard It Can Be To Keep Shadow Shield Active Against Us Good Players On High ELO Ladder Play. Without Shadow Shield Active This Mon Is Mostly B-Tier. Defensive Set I Have Seen Around Is Also Total Garbage Straight From Trash Can, Please Stop Using That.

- M-Lucario To B - How Is This Mon In The Same Tier As Garbage Such As Lugia And Tyranitar? It Is Basically Better Than Everything Currently In B-.

- Dialga To B- - Again, Another Pokemon Completely Misplaced In Sub Rank With Total Sewage Straight From Sewer. This Is Really Ranked In Same Tier With Arceus Grass? With Dugtrio (Which Is Basically Never Seen)? It Has A Niche As A Good P-Don Lure With Lead Groundium Z Or Shuca Set And Has Niche As Being One Dragon Not Totally Free For Broken Mons Such As Xerneas To Switch Into, And Has A Decent Defensive Typing. By No Means Amazing, But Better Than The Filth With It.

Thank You For Listening!