Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[HailFall]

It doesn't really matter if chomp can eat a hp ice from lando when it doesn't actually pose a sufficient threat to lando in the first place with no investment in offenses. Generally if you're using mega chomp you want it to be for the sand force eq nuke and use it as a breaker. If I wanted a rocker that could live moonblast from diancie or whatever, I would just run lando.

 

[Magistrate of Metal]

Kartana => A+
Since being given on the discussion slate, defog and Knock off have been discussed at length, so I won't repeat those ideas unnecessarily. Instead I hope to bring up meta trends that have happened since the introduction of the previous changes and the new discussion slate. I think the best case for Kartana's rise is the SD Fightium Z set. The amount of things Kartana forces out has stayed somewhat stable, but Kartanas checks have been falling usage. cdbk said "Checks including Celesteela, Zapdos, MVenu and Amoonguss dwindling in usage thanks to recent meta trends, it's harder to consistently check". In addition to those pokemon, Mew has also seen less usage lately, further reducing the preparation of most teams for SD Kartana. The lack of counters and numerous possibilities for set up make Kartana, in my opinion, the best breaker in OU currently. Therefore, I think a rise to A+ would be justified.

To avoid being a one-sided idiot here are some counterpoints:
-Not running knock off still leaves Kartana very weak to Zapdos, Mega-Venusaur, Amoongus, Tangrowth, etc.
-Kartana's frailty leaves it vulnerable to scarfers (most notably Keldeo, Magnezone, Gren, and Blacephalon)
-the decline in usage of Kartana's counters could easily reverse and make this move pointless

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Here's some noms of my own:

Tangrowth B+ -> B

This thing has fallen thanks to AV Bulu doing basically everything better. Tangrowth has regenerator and giga drain, but Bulu has horn leech and grassy terrain. Bulu doesn't have the passivity of Tangrowth, as it actually hits hard with its moves. Also Bulu has a better typing, and a great way to punish switch ins (Nature's Madness). I feel it just needs the drop.

Bisharp B- -> B

This pokemon should rise a bit more, thanks to all the defoggers, of which there are a lot. Couple that with a lotta web teams running around, and u have got some favorable conditions for Bisharp.

And i have to agree with:

Qwilfish UR -> C Agreed

LL provided great reasoning and evidence to move this mon to OU, as a possible Rain Team member. That being said maybe start it should out at a lower rank, because rain is kinda weak with all the T-Tars resetting the weather.

Lycanroc-Dusk UR -> C or C+ Agreed

This mon has a niche, albeit small, with a great priority move in accelrock. He can be a terrifying late game sweeper if given the chance. The difference between it and Terrakion is that Terrakion performs a revenge killing role better, as well as a wall breaker. Lycanroc should have a small part of the meta, although I feel it will be a better mon in UU

 

[Kshuaib734]

It doesn't really matter if chomp can eat a hp ice from lando when it doesn't actually pose a sufficient threat to lando in the first place with no investment in offenses. Generally if you're using mega chomp you want it to be for the sand force eq nuke and use it as a breaker. If I wanted a rocker that could live moonblast from diancie or whatever, I would just run lando.

But Lando-T is S-rank???

I'm not arguing for Mega Chomp to be S rank, I'm arguing for B ffs.

And my garchomp may not pose a threat to lando, but lando doesn't pose a threat to my garchomp either.

 

[Albacore]

But Lando-T is S-rank???

I'm not arguing for Mega Chomp to be S rank, I'm arguing for B ffs.

And my garchomp may not pose a threat to lando, but lando doesn't pose a threat to my garchomp either.

I feel like you're missing the point here. The fact that Mega Garchomp both suffers massive competition and struggles against an S ranked Pokemon is why it shouldn't move up. It's ultimately very hard to justify using MChomp over Landorus-T, and the fact that Lando-T is easily the best Pokemon in the metagame is an argument against MChomp rising, not for it.
Of course MChomp is nowhere near as good as Landorus-T, but no-one is saying it should be in order to move up. It's just that, in order for things to be in the B ranks, they need to have a good and well-defined niche, and Mega Garchomp doesn't really have that, in part because of Landorus-T.

(This btw also applies to regular Garchomp which can probably drop even further, but I digress)

 

[Divine Retribution]

Regarding Qwilfish, that thing NEEDS fell stinger. That move is its only saving grace, the only thing that gives it some kind of niche in the meta, the only thing that makes it fun!
Pain split is also pretty unique to it on rain teams. Also I believe it did get liquidation this gen, which is definitely better than waterfall.

Surprised nobody touched this, but oh well, I'll take the bait.

Fell Stinger is not at all necessary on Qwilfish, in fact I'll go a step farther and say it's probably not even viable, although I admit fairly limited experience with it. That being said, the amount of times you find yourself in a situation where a 50 base power move coming from something with 95 base attack is actually going to net you a KO is very limited. It definitely isn't Qwilfish's "saving grace", that would be its ability to set up on Toxapex and absorb its Toxic Spikes as well as break down common Rain checks without taking up your Z-Move slot like Kabutops or Omastar. Also, whether or not a move or set is more "fun" is subjective and irrelevant. This is not a fun ranking thead, it is a viability ranking thread.

Pain Split is also largely unnecessary on Qwilfish and will be a wasted moveslot in almost every game, and there's nothing he can afford to drop for it. He needs Swords Dance, he needs a water STAB (you are right about Liquidation being a viable and more accurate alternative but it does get slightly worse rolls vs certain targets), he needs Explosion to take out certain Rain threats, and the last slot is a tossup to either Spikes for the hazard support or Poison Jab for a secondary STAB to smack things like Bulu and Tang around, either of which are far more useful than Pain Split.


Also I agree with Qwilfish being ranked but I'm honestly not sold on it being C+ material especially when similar rain sweepers are unranked entirely, I'd like to echo Discharged Xurkitree's thoughts that it should start in C and perhaps move up in the future if it warrants it.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Lol, this thread gets so damn hostile. . .

Kartana should be A+.

To possibly get some discussion going, I have a legitimate question that I'm hoping someone can answer and get me to see the reasoning.

Why is Mega Venusaur A-?

It's far from bad, I'm not naive. But when I'm looking at A- and all the 'mons in it, I have a really hard time convincing myself that "yea, Mega Venusaur is in the same level of viability as Mega Pinsir, Blacephalon, Latios, Mega Lopunny, Magnezone, that looks right."

Yea, it's decently fat, I get that, and it absorbs TSpikes which is also cool, but it can most certainly be muscled through by many of the 'mons it's meant to be taking hits from. I can acknowledge its defensive capabilities, I just don't think they make it A- worthy personally.

Not saying it should drop, I just want to know why it is A-, because I just do not see it.

 

[strengthofheart]

Lol, this thread gets so damn hostile. . .

Kartana should be A+.

To possibly get some discussion going, I have a legitimate question that I'm hoping someone can answer and get me to see the reasoning.

Why is Mega Venusaur A-?

It's far from bad, I'm not naive. But when I'm looking at A- and all the 'mons in it, I have a really hard time convincing myself that "yea, Mega Venusaur is in the same level of viability as Mega Pinsir, Blacephalon, Latios, Mega Lopunny, Magnezone, that looks right."

Yea, it's decently fat, I get that, and it absorbs TSpikes which is also cool, but it can most certainly be muscled through by many of the 'mons it's meant to be taking hits from. I can acknowledge its defensive capabilities, I just don't think they make it A- worthy personally.

Not saying it should drop, I just want to know why it is A-, because I just do not see it.

It's funny you mention a Kartana rise right before questioning Venu's position when Venu hard walls non-Darkinium Kartana to hell and back. Look at all the mons in A+, only Banded Tyranitar and Offensive Steela can break through it really.

 

[oh95]

It's funny you mention a Kartana rise right before questioning Venu's position when Venu hard walls non-Darkinium Kartana to hell and back. Look at all the mons in A+, only Banded Tyranitar and Offensive Steela can break through it really.

Venu walls Kartana, yes, but is Setup Fodder if is not HP Fire, and some Venus run Earthquake for CM Gearna and Tran, then this becomes in Kartana's setup opportunities, and possibilities to lose the 1v1 or finish very low. Is not a reliably Kartana's counter without HP Fire.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

It's funny you mention a Kartana rise right before questioning Venu's position when Venu hard walls non-Darkinium Kartana to hell and back. Look at all the mons in A+, only Banded Tyranitar and Offensive Steela can break through it really.

Oh, so it beats two variants of an A mon and therefore should be A-?
If you're going to be snarky, at least try.

A+? Or all of A and its sub ranks?

Because Ash Ninja, Kyurem B, Kartana (if no HP Fire), Heatran (if no EQ), Tyranitar, Lele, Volcarona, Blacephalon, Hoopa-U, PuP mLopunny, and obviously Mega Pinsir all break or heavily pressure mVenu for other Pokemon to muscle through, especially with rocks up.

Why bring up the fact it "walls" one A, possibly A+, 'mon, when 11 others break or put a lot of pressure on it?

 

[BeardyBennett]

Qwilfish to C - Agree

I fully believe this could be C+. I think this Mon fills some super solid niches and fits in super well on Rain. I started using it after the initial nom and love it. Giving Rain a better matchup against Toxapex and being a TSpikes absorber is awesome. Rain didn't generally have it before, and Qwilfish is still super solid even beyond that matchup. Love this nom.

M-Chomp to rise to B - Disagree

This has already been discussed a lot but I don't recall seeing the basic argument of competition with other Megas. There are many better options for a Mega out there. And even if this wasn't a Mega, it's hard for me to find what it has over non-Megas. Lando-T and base Garchomp are both better and I don't see what the niche is that makes this rise.

Bisharp to B - Agree

I'm already nominating Araquanid to rise, might as well support Bisharp to rise. The primary removal option for this entire meta has been Defog and it's not even close. The best case for a Bisharp rise though might be the Araquanid webs teams. Araquanid supports it so well (resists and drops Fire and Ground, resists Fighting) that it makes Bisharp stand out even more. Webs are good again, and Bisharp is benefitting big time.

 

[escarlata]

Here's a conversation I had with mattybrollic on discord about a comparison between the two.
View attachment 92058
View attachment 92057

Just to elaborate further a bit further on the point on typing, since all you brought up in your original nomination were on Qwilfish's matchup against defensive threats.

There are also offensive threats, which Kabutops cannot handle, and Qwilfish can, and the fact these are common makes it that Kabutops often cannot actually reasonably get a sweep streak even with SD, while Qwilfish actually can get the SD sweep more consistently.

Ash-gren, Hawlucha, Mimikyu, Azumarill are some of those that can immediately stop a Tops sweep, whereas Qwilfish can still keep going by virtue of typing. Also, the fact that you actually resist Water makes the matchup against opposing Rain team much less constraining, and that Qwil actually beats CharY and AloTails teams in many cases.

 

[Blaxithan]

So I've been spending a lot of time teambuilding and laddering as of late, and there's one 'mon that I feel is unjustly ranked... or I guess two 'mons?

B -> B+

B- -> B+
I don't think anyone can really disagree on both versions of Gyarados being a nightmare to face unprepared. While the rise of Rotom-W and AV Tapu Bulu are certainly hindering, it is still very easy for either of these 'mons to snowball into a victory. In many circumstances, a single Dragon Dance can end matches. Both variants can run Taunt or Substitute depending on the team, so phasing them out can be troublesome and revenge killing can be a hassle. The rise in Blacephelon usage has undoubtedly dropped the usage of Tangrowth, making the job of M-Gyarados much easier and allowing regular Gyarados to mess around with some new tech options, namely Tectonic Rage for Toxapex. M-Gyarados doesn't deal with Tapu Bulu or Scarf Keldeo quite as easily as it's counterpart, but it does deal with Rotom-W much easier. I've taken to running teams with no Mega so as to bluff M-Dos, and being able to trick people like this is huge, not to mention M-Dos does possess the option not to Mega Evolve, allowing it to maintain either Intimidate or Moxie for a later, more favorable setup opportunity. I believe it is somewhat outrageous to place such huge threats in the meta on par with 'mons such as Latias, Garchomp (for regular), Terrakion, and Mamoswine (for mega), no offense meant to those 'mons but they really don't compare. It's also worth noting that with Blace running rampant, M-Dos is one of the few 'mons that can switch in and it proceeds to setup freely.

 

[LORD HELIX 65]

So I've been spending a lot of time teambuilding and laddering as of late, and there's one 'mon that I feel is unjustly ranked... or I guess two 'mons?

B -> B+

B- -> B+
I don't think anyone can really disagree on both versions of Gyarados being a nightmare to face unprepared. While the rise of Rotom-W and AV Tapu Bulu are certainly hindering, it is still very easy for either of these 'mons to snowball into a victory. In many circumstances, a single Dragon Dance can end matches. Both variants can run Taunt or Substitute depending on the team, so phasing them out can be troublesome and revenge killing can be a hassle. The rise in Blacephelon usage has undoubtedly dropped the usage of Tangrowth, making the job of M-Gyarados much easier and allowing regular Gyarados to mess around with some new tech options, namely Tectonic Rage for Toxapex. M-Gyarados doesn't deal with Tapu Bulu or Scarf Keldeo quite as easily as it's counterpart, but it does deal with Rotom-W much easier. I've taken to running teams with no Mega so as to bluff M-Dos, and being able to trick people like this is huge, not to mention M-Dos does possess the option not to Mega Evolve, allowing it to maintain either Intimidate or Moxie for a later, more favorable setup opportunity. I believe it is somewhat outrageous to place such huge threats in the meta on par with 'mons such as Latias, Garchomp (for regular), Tapu Fini, and Mamoswine (for mega), no offense meant to those 'mons but they really don't compare. It's also worth noting that with Blace running rampant, M-Dos is one of the few 'mons that can switch in and it proceeds to setup freely.

If anything normal gyarados should drop or stay where it is tbh. Tapu Koko and rock types are everywhere. Stall is quite good right now and struggles to even do much if it gets burned. Also Rotom W can destroy normal gyarados and if its doesn't want to be dead weight against pex, it needs to run groundinium-z and even then it gets set up on, hurting the team. Also scarf Kartana is popular as ever and does a ton of damage to both of them and outspeeds both of them even at +1 with scarf.
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 229-271 (69.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As for Mega Gyarados, I totally think it should rise to B, but i'm not quite sure about B+. As shown above, it is OHKOed by kartana's leaf blade, and Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham's resurgence in the meta doesn't really help mega gyara. It can definitely sweep if you can set up, but that is hard when you are weak to common types like electric, fighting, and fairy. It gets man handled by Tapu Bulu as well, as it resists both of its STABs and even weakens Earthquake to laughable levels with grassy terrain. It's wood hammer absolutely destroys it as well.
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 548-648 (165.5 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Gyarados is definitely a threat, but is checked by a ton of relevant mons atm, so I think it should rise but i just don't know about B+.

 

[Blaxithan]

If anything normal gyarados should drop or stay where it is tbh. Tapu Koko and rock types are everywhere. Stall is quite good right now and struggles to even do much if it gets burned. Also Rotom W can destroy normal gyarados and if its doesn't want to be dead weight against pex, it needs to run groundinium-z and even then it gets set up on, hurting the team. Also scarf Kartana is popular as ever and does a ton of damage to both of them and outspeeds both of them even at +1 with scarf.
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 229-271 (69.1 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 354-416 (106.9 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
As for Mega Gyarados, I totally think it should rise to B, but i'm not quite sure about B+. As shown above, it is OHKOed by kartana's leaf blade, and Mega Lopunny and Mega Medicham's resurgence in the meta doesn't really help mega gyara. It can definitely sweep if you can set up, but that is hard when you are weak to common types like electric, fighting, and fairy. It gets man handled by Tapu Bulu as well, as it resists both of its STABs and even weakens Earthquake to laughable levels with grassy terrain. It's wood hammer absolutely destroys it as well.
252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 548-648 (165.5 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Gyarados is definitely a threat, but is checked by a ton of relevant mons atm, so I think it should rise but i just don't know about B+.

• I feel the point of Koko is somewhat irrelevant, Blace and Tran running rampant doesn't stop Kartana from being a good mon, and if there's any Rock type 1v1ing a Gyarados, let me know so I can use it. Not to mention unless Koko is Scarf, which is an unset, it gets outsped at +1.
• I did mention Rotom-W being an issue for regular Gyarados, but I also feel that with new toy syndrome winding down, Rotom-W is going to be used a lot less, seeing as how easily it gets worn down.
• I don't believe Gyarados is dead weight against Pex, Taunt shuts Pex down entirely and Substitute is pretty much free. Haze does stop a DD, true, but a regular EQ can 2HKO, since they run SpD for Gren nowadays.
  • 252 Atk Gyarados Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Toxapex: 148-176 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 52.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
    
  • 252 Atk Gyarados Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
• Lopunny with Fake Out is indeed an issue, however, there are sets that forego this and thus get outsped at +1. Of course, this doesn't make Lop any less of a threat.
• Medicham isn't exactly an answer, since Fake Out doesn't even break Sub if Jolly (and that's assuming max Speed on Dos, which isn't a requirement at +1 anyways).
  • 252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados-Mega: 68-81 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
• Tapu Bulu and Kartana are for sure the biggest threats, both can take just about any move at +1 barring SSSS from regular and OHKO in return. However, with the calc you posted above, I'd like to note that Gyarados does indeed take a hit from Scarf Tana, which may not be the biggest thing in the world, but is important. If it hasn't taken 20-30% already, it can DD again and get the guaranteed kill with Tectonic (which can do it at +1 provided some hazards), this can lead into a Moxie boost which, as mentioned earlier, is easy to snowball. I believe this is reason not to drop Gyarados, although I'll admit it being B+ is certainly up for debate.
  • +1 252 Atk Gyarados Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 226-266 (87.2 - 102.7%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
  • +2 252 Atk Gyarados Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 300-354 (115.8 - 136.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

TL;DR: Can they be checked? Of course, but I do feel that while niche, it is a much bigger threat than other things in the same rank. I may have been a bit hasty in my hyping of Gyarados, but M-Dos is certainly being slept on.

 

[BlueLobster]

The great thing is about regular gyarados is that (depending on your team) people will assume it is a mega, which means they assume the typical ways of revenging megaDos will work, when due to the typing change, do not on regular dos. Another great thing about this is that you can use a regular gyara with z bounce to take out things that your opponent will be using as a check thinking you have megaDos (such as MVenu or keldeo excluding scarf hp electric) and proceed to sweep or at least damage the opposing team. While it is not as good as megaDos, it is still good and both of them are really underrated and deserve to rise, particularly megaDos, who I would argue is harder to deal with than regular guarantee and I have no clue why it is currently a subrank below it.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Gyarados to B+ seems quite a stretch, there are certainly a ton of factors against it, including the aforementioned plethora of Tapu Koko and Stealth Rock. That being said I don't think it should drop. It certainly has a good place in B tier, and I can't really imagine it below or above as of now. While there are a lot of the aforementioned threats, Gyarados can threaten a Koko that switches in by using EQ, substituting, or even using DD to catch up and OHKO Koko. As for Stealth Rock, thankfully, we have a ton of Defoggers running around to clean up, even certain Koko switch ins like Specially Defensive Rotom-W. In my opinion it should not move at all.

 

[viol and bass]

The great thing is about regular gyarados is that (depending on your team) people will assume it is a mega, which means they assume the typical ways of revenging megaDos will work, when due to the typing change, do not on regular dos. Another great thing about this is that you can use a regular gyara with z bounce to take out things that your opponent will be using as a check thinking you have megaDos (such as MVenu or keldeo excluding scarf hp electric) and proceed to sweep or at least damage the opposing team.

I don't think this really applies because you reveal which Gyarados you are the moment you switch in based on whether Intimidate activates or not. MegaDos will always use Intimidate and FlyniumDos will always have Moxie. Unless you're making the case for regular Gyarados running Intimidate, but I think Moxie is kind of the entire point of using Gyarados.

 

[strengthofheart]

Oh, so it beats two variants of an A mon and therefore should be A-?
If you're going to be snarky, at least try.

A+? Or all of A and its sub ranks?

Because Ash Ninja, Kyurem B, Kartana (if no HP Fire), Heatran (if no EQ), Tyranitar, Lele, Volcarona, Blacephalon, Hoopa-U, PuP mLopunny, and obviously Mega Pinsir all break or heavily pressure mVenu for other Pokemon to muscle through, especially with rocks up.

Why bring up the fact it "walls" one A, possibly A+, 'mon, when 11 others break or put a lot of pressure on it?

I... wasn't trying to be snarky? Sorry you felt that way. I'll try harder next time?

All I said was that it walls a lot of really good, threatening mons in this meta. I've seen Venu as the last mon standing so often because it's so hard to take down.

Lots of pokes get borked by Lele, Volc, Mega Pinsir, et al. This doesn't mean it doesn't deserve its ranking. If you disagree... I mean, that's cool, too. Idc.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I... wasn't trying to be snarky? Sorry you felt that way. I'll try harder next time?

All I said was that it walls a lot of really good, threatening mons in this meta. I've seen Venu as the last mon standing so often because it's so hard to take down.

Lots of pokes get borked by Lele, Volc, Mega Pinsir, et al. This doesn't mean it doesn't deserve its ranking. If you disagree... I mean, that's cool, too. Idc.

It seemed quite snarky, but that's neither here nor there.

I was asking why it deserves this ranking. If you think it does deserve that ranking, then as I originally stated, I would like to know what that reason is. You also didn't say it "walls a lot", you stated it walls 1 and only 2 A mons can break it, and avoided 11 other very dominant "threatening" mons that break through it in the A rank alone.

If you think it deserves A-, which I am to assume you do, I would like an explanation, more elaborate than "it walls a few mons" so that perhaps I can see this light everyone else must be seeing. I understand its use and its ability to be an over all annoyance to Toxapex and a decent few other Pokemon in the tier, but do not think that merits it being all the way up in A-, when A- has the Pokemon that it has in it.

 

[BeardyBennett]

I don't think this really applies because you reveal which Gyarados you are the moment you switch in based on whether Intimidate activates or not. MegaDos will always use Intimidate and FlyniumDos will always have Moxie. Unless you're making the case for regular Gyarados running Intimidate, but I think Moxie is kind of the entire point of using Gyarados.

I don't think Gyarados's ability reveals anything necessarily. Regular Gyarados still like Intimidate to facilitate its setup and to support its team. After all, Intimidate helps in general but specifically is nice for opposing DDancers as well as the myriad of physical threats such as Zard-X, M-Lop, M-Medi, TTar, Excadrill, Kartana, Lando-T, physical Koko, M-Mawile, etc. Gyarados isn't a switch-in to all of these, but can come in off of kills and then pivot into a more appropriate check, making it easier for said check to operate and for longer periods of time. While Moxie is practically never run on M-Gyarados, plenty of regular Gyarados could and do run Intimidate.

 

[Jordy]

I don't think Gyarados's ability reveals anything necessarily. Regular Gyarados still like Intimidate to facilitate its setup and to support its team. After all, Intimidate helps in general but specifically is nice for opposing DDancers as well as the myriad of physical threats such as Zard-X, M-Lop, M-Medi, TTar, Excadrill, Kartana, Lando-T, physical Koko, M-Mawile, etc. Gyarados isn't a switch-in to all of these, but can come in off of kills and then pivot into a more appropriate check, making it easier for said check to operate and for longer periods of time. While Moxie is practically never run on M-Gyarados, plenty of regular Gyarados could and do run Intimidate.

Yeh.. no. Gyarados cannot effectively sweep without Moxie consistently boosting its power, since after using its z-move, even at +1, it's rather weak and fails to grab KOs that it can achieve after a moxie boost.

 

[Gary]

Yo so my activity and will to live willingness to contribute/play has basically dissipated over the last few weeks, and instead of holding my positions for the fuck of it I'm gonna just hand this off to Finchinator, the only other active VR council member lmao. Also RIP what is probably the shortest OU Council stint in the history of Smogon yeet. Not gonna be that "oh I'm quitting btw please give me attention btw" because I'll probably be back at some point who knows and I'm sure I'll still be around regardless of whether or not I post. Quitting is overrated.

Y'all behave now for daddy Finchinator. OU dictator out.

 

[Finchinator]

-OUTL takeover.

 

[Colonel M]

C- -> Unrank

I understand this might anger some users, and to be fair I get there are a lot of Pokemon within the Cs that I probably would never touch before Talonflame, but the truth is the meta has gotten rather brutal to Talonflame. Tyranitar(s) and Heatran are much more common than before, and Sand knocking Talon out of Gale Wings range is really bad. Tapu Koko is also a lot more common on teams, and naturally being faster than Talonflame hurts. Priority Skystrike is cool at 100% health, but the agonizing chore of keeping Stealth Rock off of the field and having to fear Sand is awful. Talonflame also isn't really strong unless it has a Swords Dance under its belt or has Supersonic Skystrike at ready.

Consider a few more scenarios - Hawlucha is a lot better to use as a fast Flying-type spamming Pokemon since its only opportunity cost is using a Tapu (very common on teams anyway and they can synergize well with Koko), has enough Speed to not worry about the priority shenanigans, and can break through teams much more effectively after a Swords Dance. Terrain Seeds make Hawlucha really bulky too - there are actually times where Hawlucha with Roost can win against a Celesteela one-on-one as an example. Not having a Z Crystal cost attached to Hawlucha also helps in being more useful in a team than Talonflame, which has to hog a Z Crystal to even be moderately effective. There are a lot of rather often-used defensive measures to prevent Talonflame sweeps that are commonly on teams without a second thoughas well - a lot of teams have Ash-Greninja which can threaten Talonflame if it has been chipped whereas Tapu Lele effectively locks out one of Talonflame's STABs.

I feel Talonflame has barely been relevant as time has progressed, and the rising surge of teams with Tyranitar and Heatran with Dugtrio being absent in the tier has not helped this mon. The set is rather difficult to wield properly since Talonflame relies on forced switches to Swords Dance, and the chore of keeping Talonflame at full health means you can't freely switch Talonflame if it's going to take damage. That isn't to say I can't be proven wrong on this - Talonflame has barely hung on by its talon claws for quite a while, so it would not surprise me if there has been someone that has found a team that compliments Talonflame without exploiting a lot of flaws.

I get that comparing Hawlucha to Talonflame is rather biased against Talonflame, but consider that there are much more splashable Pokemon available for teams to use with lese extreme costs surrounding them.