Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[comma]

Fully support Hawlucha to A- and this mon should probably be in A

First of all, discussion of Hawlucha going to A- has been going on for almost two months and as of yet I haven't seen any good counterarguments against it. It's easily one of the best sweeper/breakers in the tier and one of the most complained about mons as it is very tough for offense to deal with (not nearly on toxapex level though.) It has very limited defensive counter play which includes zapdos, celesteela, landorus, scizor, gliscor, Tapu Koko, unaware clef, physically defensive mew and skarmory. Even then, all of the counters just listed are shaky. Unaware clef and skarm are only on full stall which is nearly nonexistant. Gliscor, Landorus, scizor and celesteela all get blown away with multiple boosts and have trouble preventing hawlucha from setting up in their faces. Tapu Koko gets sniped by the very rare poison jab but takes 1 million from high jump kick and gets chipped into range very quickly. After 2 rock switchins, Koko only has a 7% chance to live a +2 high jump kick. Zapdos is probably the best defensive countermeasure since stone edge is pretty rare and can take on Hawlucha pretty comfortably as long is it isn't severely chipped down. Physically defensive mew is on the decline and doesn't take +2 acrobatics particularly well. It either has to not kill with ice beam and die to the next acrobatics or wisp and die to the next acrobatics.

Hawlucha's offensive counterplay is even more limited. You can attempt to take it down with pinsir quick attack, ash gren water shuriken, mimikyu, ice shard from mamo or weavile, or jolly hawlucha. First of all, outside of mimikyu, none of these mons can ohko hawlucha outside of mimikyu and hawlucha and they all will be ohkoed back (outside of mimikyu.). Obviously other priority like medicham fake out and bullet punch, scizor bullet punch and mega lopunny fake out and quick attack exist but don't do enough damage to hawlucha and if they don't kill a mon needs to be sacrificed. Here are some calcs of the "offensive counterplay" of hawlucha. For these calcs I used the 296 speed set which outspeeds the tier's fastest mons in scarf koko and timid rain kingdra and leaves room for 160 hp EV's. This set can't outspeed sand drill but that mon isn't relevant enough to warrant hawluchas to start running 303.

calcs

+1 defense +0 spdef represents electric or grassy seed variants and +0 def +1 spdef represents psychic or misty seed variants

252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 152-182 (45.1 - 54%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 228-270 (67.6 - 80.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 243-288 (72.1 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. +1 160 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 162-192 (48 - 56.9%) -- approx. 93% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 236-278 (70 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 158-188 (46.8 - 55.7%) -- 75.8% chance to 2HKO

252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 148-174 (43.9 - 51.6%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 218-257 (64.6 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 416-491 (123.4 - 145.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 276-328 (81.8 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mimikyu Play Rough vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 212-252 (62.9 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mimikyu Play Rough vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 320-378 (94.9 - 112.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

These calcs are to show faster hawluchas trying to revenge kill other hawluchas. +2 was shown to have the equivalent of a +0 110 base power acrobatics as a Hawlucha coming in to revenge kill another Hawlucha before setting up any sd's.

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 264-312 (78.3 - 92.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 396-468 (117.5 - 138.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. +1 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 240-284 (71.2 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (55 BP) vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 360-426 (106.8 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Another thing going for Hawlucha is the amount of mons it can use as setup fodder. As mentioned in a previous post, Tapu Koko, the Tapu 80% of Hawluchas are paired with, can pivot out on bulky grasses or grounds that hawlucha can set up on such as tangrowth, Bulu, defensive Landorus, venusaur, ferrothorn and the occasional amoonguss. Defensive Landorus doesn't stop Hawlucha as hp ice does around 40% and most Hawluchas run roost and +1 acrobatics 2hkoes Landorus most of the time.

There are no particular meta trends that are particularly bad for Hawlucha except for the fact that Zapdos is rising in usage and Hawluchas are running more speed to revenge kill other Hawluchas. Both of those trends just go to show how good Hawlucha is and the impact it's having on the meta in forcing it to adapt. A new core I've been seeing is Pinsir+Hawlucha birdspam in which one bird wears down shared checks for the other bird to sweep late game. This core works extremely well especially since one mon can run lures like poison jab or stone edge for the other.

There are only 2 downsides to running Hawlucha. The first one is hardly a downside. To run Hawlucha, you need a Tapu or run SubSitrus which is a bad set and is used by absolutely no one. Fitting one of the Tapus on an offense team is really not difficult although it's never really Bulu or Fini. Tapu Koko is a top 5 mon in the metagame and even can u-turn into mons to let Hawlucha set up. In my opinion, Hawlucha+Koko is the best offensive core of USUM. The only other downside is the fact that Hawlucha can only go for a sweep once because the seeds aren't renewable. However, as long as you don't set up Hawlucha prematurely, it can usually pull off it's sweep or get at least 1 kill to weaken for other mons to clean.

Pinsir A- to A

Pinsir is very arguably the best mega in the tier. It's competition is scizor, which is outclassed by other mons as a bulky steel and a defogger. Defog is scizors only viable set as SD scizor is borderline useless in a meta with Toxapex, Celesteela, Heatran, Volcarona, Ash Greninja, Tapu Lele and Magnezone. Lopunny is just not as great of a breaker as it used to be and the PuP Encore set isn't unexpected or unpredictable anymore and also is revenge killed easily by priority and a lot of common scarfers. Mawile is in my opinion, the 2nd best mega but it's ability to beat stall isn't as valuable anymore since full stall isn't seen to much anymore and gets revenge killed by a lot of common offensive mons before it can pull off a sweep.

Pinsir is usually the best option as a mega on any HO style that isn't trick room. It's a deadly sweeper and although it has a lot of revenge killers (ash gren, koko, diancie, latios and scarf lele, heatra, magnezone, excadrill and kartana with smart strike) it can usually get at least 1 kill or sufficiently weaken the opponent's team for another sweeper like Hawlucha or Bisharp.

On bulky offense, pinsir requires a lot more support but can break through literally every fat team without a zapdos or rotom. Pinsir generally needs Magnezone, a defogger and a knock off mon to lure in shed shell skarm, but all these things can be fit on dedicated pinsir builds. http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/mega-pinsir-magnezone-bulky-offense-christmas-special.3624035/ I know this is my own rmt and I'm not trying to sound too egotistic here, but I feel this team does a great job of showing Pinsir+Mag's ability to invalidate bulky teams without zapdos. Also, in the poll I posted, pinsir was voted the best mega and I feel most people would agree.

The pinsir+hawlucha core is also great on hyper offense and also shows another fantastic partner for pinsir in breaking bulky builds. Another core I've tried out is Pinsir+Gravity Landorus to get rid of Rotom, Zapdos, Skarm and celesteela but this core is pretty bad to be honest.

Zapdos B+ to A-

Zapdos is still a great defogger and roost 3 attacks is still troubling for offense to switch in to. It checks a ton of very deadly pokemon in Landorus, Hawlucha, Kartana, pinsir and doesn't usually have to fear stone edge/smack down/darkinium. Zapdos is also really fat and keeps itself healthy with roost and depletes important pp on moves like hydro pump and fire blast. There isn't too much else to say about this mon but the current ranking of this mon feels too low to reflect it's actual viability and the pokemon it checks are extremely important mons.

Magnezone A- to A

Mainly for the points I brought up about Pinsir+Magnezone but this mon can also trap steels for tons of other breakers like Tapu Bulu, Kartana, Lopunny and even traps ferrothorn for ash greninja and lele. I feel every magnezone set is viable even though specs is subpar.

SubElectrium gets super reliable traps against ferrothorn and celesteela and can outplay and trap SD Mawile. SubSteelium is also nice because magnezone can take out other mons like a somewhat-worn down venusaur. Z-move 4 attacks with volt switch is also an underrated option which isn't bad at all. Scarf Magnezone can't trap spdef leech seed ferrothorn and celesteela as reliably but traps SD kartana which is invaluable as kartana is a top-5 mon in the tier and no team likes dealing with magnezone. Not to mention, scarf magnezone can revenge kill mega pinsir, which is also a huge threat. Assault Vest is a somewhat decent option on teams that need magnezone to trap but can't fit another special pivot like heatran, magearna or bulu. Specs is fine on teams that have the z-slot taken and don't need another scarfer or pivot. Specs isn't even a bad wallbraker and is only really walled by gastro and pert but you can even flex with hp grass if you aren't concernead about ferrothorn. Electric spam with koko+magnezone does make magnezone extremely strong but is a bad core in general.

Tapu Bulu A to A+

Assault vest bulu is the new wave and just because it is the new wave doesn't mean that it's other sets aren't still fantastic. Assault vest bulu is the best option as a blanket check to special attackers on bulky offense teams and the only other pokemon that could be argued to hold that title is assault vest magearna which is already in A. Tapu Bulu has a great defensive typing, recovery in grassy terrain and horn leech and pretty good bulk. AV Bulu can also check a ton of pokemon in the current meta like ash gren, kingdra, keldeo, swampert, zygarde, non z-fly landorus, tapu koko, diancie, latios, garchomp, tapu lele, tapu fini and mega gyarados. Not to mention, AV Bulu also doubles as a decent wallbreaker with it's strong attack and boosted grass moves as well Nature's Madness which is the most annoying move to switch in to. AV Bulu also isn't hazard fodder or setup fodder for most mons like trash tangrowth.

Choice band wood hammer is basically the strongest physical hit in the game and with magnezone removing steel types it becomes near impossible to switch into without a venusaur but venusaur doesn't like choice band megahorns and zen headbutts or even banded stone edges very much. Swords dance is getting outclassed by kartana but the grassium set is still great because with zone to trap steel types z-wood hammer is guaranteed a kill. SD Rockium still functions as a nice venusaur lure but fightinium is pretty bad. SubSD can also destroy stalls that use skarmory without whirlwind. Even though SD Kartana is faster and stronger, the defensive utility provided by SD Tapu Bulu is nice.

Another great thing about Tapu Bulu is how great grassy terrain is. It weakens earthquakes for Heatran and AV Magearna and provides them with extra passive recovery. The only downside is it can weaken your own earthquakes sometimes in bad situations. Grassy terrain also boosts the leaf blades of scarf or even band (band is a bad set) kartana. With a magnezone to trap steel types, the only thing switching into those leaf blades is venusaur, tangrowth and Tapu Bulu (which can be predicted with smart strike and take 1 million %) In my opinion grass spam is top 5 offensive cores in the meta right now.

Mega Venusaur is bad

 

[weirdo faye]

I'm echoing this, Lopunny doesn't deserve a rise. I've used it a lot recently and it's a fine teammate, but it suffers massively from 4MSS and fails to break a number of top-tier Pokemon in the metagame without prior damage, some luck, or absolutely masterful prediction. Let me explain.

1. Toxapex: by far the worst thing to face as a M-Lopunny user, it swaps in on anything and won't die to a +1 Return. Even when you're running Encore, all this thing needs to do is get a burn with Scald and swap out to do its job effectively. Regenerator lets you pull this off numerous times throughout a match - not that Lopunny has a good chance of safely getting into play more than a few times throughout a match.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 85.7% chance to 3HKO
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 144-169 (47.3 - 55.5%) -- 76.6% chance to 2HKO

2. Landorus-T: The other S-Rank, and a pain in the ass for M-Lopunny. While Ice Punch hits it hard, it doesn't score a kill, even if you get it with PuP on the switch. On top of this, Lando's all-too-common Rocky Helmet completely nullifies the effectiveness of PuP, as it leaves you at neutral and you take damage. Last, Lando's ability to retaliate with Earthquake gives it needed retaliatory power.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 272-320 (71.2 - 83.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 180-216 (47.1 - 56.5%) -- 25% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
-1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Return vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Landorus-Therian: 93-109 (24.3 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

3. Zapdos: Another popular wall whose been enjoying a little more popularity recently with Kartana, Bulu and M-Scizor's rise in popularity. Similar to Landorus in that PuP is not effective and it opens the door for you to take Static paralysis. Even if you correctly predict it, neutral Ice Punch is a 2-3HKO (depending on SR/prior damage) meaning you're looking at two 30% chances to have a ruined M-Lopunny for the rest of the match.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 138-164 (36 - 42.8%) -- 20.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 204-242 (53.2 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

4. Scarf users/Speed Tier: Latios, Kartana, Landorus-T, Tapu Lele, and pretty much any other Scarfer (save Greninja) has recourse against Lopunny. While that's not a death sentence (all of these pokemon are also vulnerable to others if they lack a Scarf or are locked into a bad move), it doesn't help a pokemon whose job it is to set up and sweep with PuP. In particular, Latios, Lele, and Landorus can also swap in on a PuP or HJK and threaten it out. One of the major selling points for M-Lopunny is that it's faster than all of these Pokemon (and Tapu Koko/Ash Greninja) when they're not scarfed, but in reality, any or all of these pokemon might nullify it and the only way to know is to swap M-Lopunny out and guess what's going on. That's a problem for something as frail as M-Lop is and once you take entry damage a couple of times it starts to show. On top of this, Ash-Greninja has Water Shuriken, which ruins your day and knocks another name off the list of things that M-Lopunny surely beats because of its great speed tier.

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 174-207 (64.2 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

5. Power-up Punch: This move itself is a massive conundrum for the M-Lopunny user. What exactly does it kill? Weakened Ash-Greninja, weakened Tyranitar, weakened Heatran.. etc. It doesn't kill anything in the metagame from reasonably high health, and that quickly becomes an issue. For instance, a PuP against Heatran can mean you're taking huge damage from Magma Storm (or a burn from Lava Plume) or a Hydro Pump from Ash-Greninja. Even in more favorable matchups, PuP can become a liability: what happens when your opponent sends in Ferrothorn and you take Iron Barbs damage and then have to guess whether or not it's running Protect? Same situation applies to Celesteela. The point in each of these cases is that while it may seem dumb to go for PuP against these Pokemon, PuP is the only way that you
can properly sweep, and it's often abused as a method for powering up when a would-be KO is predicted to switch out. Overall, the move presents the user with many 50/50's that can be painfully costly.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja-Ash: 186-222 (65.2 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 132-156 (34.2 - 40.5%) -- 31.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 111-132 (40.9 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Power-Up Punch vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 92-110 (26.1 - 31.2%) -- 10.1% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Ferrothorn Gyro Ball (133 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega: 144-169 (53.1 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

6. Tapu Bulu: Yet another defensive mon that swaps in on Lopunny and forces it out. This one's near the bottom of the list of checks since it's easy enough to play around, but it just illustrates how annoying trying to sweep with Lopunny can be. Bulu also has the added advantage of being able to cover Lopunny with Superpower and hit common switch ins like Kartana and Heatran in case Lopunny sees its death coming.

252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 150-178 (43.6 - 51.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+1 252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu: 226-266 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252+ Atk Tapu Bulu Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lopunny-Mega in Grassy Terrain: 213-252 (78.5 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

7. Encore: In my world, this move is a recipe for 50/50's and lost turns. Think about it: you swap in against SR Heatran, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, Clefable, Chansey, Lando, etc. Each and everyone one of these pokemon can either see that coming and hit you on the switch or they can just set up and swap out on the predicted Encore. In some of these cases (Skarmory, Chansey) the punishment for mispredicting isn't too bad. But in the case of Clefable, Heatran, or Ferrothorn, that can mean some unfortunate damage that you didn't want to take. The other case in which you'd use Encore is to stop slow setup Pokemon. But in that case, what exactly are you swapping in on? What uses CM or Swords Dance and is either too impotent or too slow for Lopunny to safely swap in on? I have never found this move to be particularly useful outside of maybe dealing with Toxapex a little better.

In conclusion, I've just listed 7 ways that Mega Lopunny struggles with common situations in the current metagame. That's not to say it's trash or deserving of a drop, but rather that it has some major issues with popular pokemon. While it boasts some qualities that are worthy of praise, like a great speed tier, the ability to boost and simultaneously deal damage, perfect neutral coverage, and some fun gimmicks like Encore, this doesn't amount to an A-Rank pokemon in my book.

Ok, ill respond to this cuz im the 1 who said lop deserves a rise. You posted a lot of stuff but it all seems like theory.

I got the replays here n im not sure if u actually watched them but ill repost them again.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671855684
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671891341

U mentioned pex & landot are problems I disposed off his landot and had very little problems with pex as u can see. Also u can see here encore is no gimmick lol, the most optimal smogon set is literally pup/encore/dual stab. I dont think ice punch is even good on lop anyways, id rather pair lop with something that can dent landot severely than run ice punch 90% of the time.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-678400857

Zapdos can be pressured out with sr and other physical atkers as u can see here. Also once again encore saves the day.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670910634
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670915338

These final 2 replays show u how good encore + pup is.

Also i think u misunderstand lop is not a sweeper primarily. Its good cuz it can rk ashgren & koko easily 1st and foremost, then its also capable of doing something for your team regardless of what team u face (stall, offense, balance etc.) but thats only if run encore pup, thats why i think its so good. Other powerful megas like medicham pinsir etc they struggle to put in work if ur opp has sableye or zapdos.

Ill admit bulu is a problem for my team but i usually wear it down with spikes n sr and working from there.

 

[Counting Sheep]

Tapu Koko to S rank -> Kinda Agree

I have believed Koko to be S rank worthy for a long time now, a combination of its power, versatility in sets, momentum grabbing nature and imo the best team support mon in the meta make it a staple on Volt Turn teams, defining its nature. Its also posseses some defesive utility in being able to check M.Pinsir, M.Mawile arguably two of the best offensive Megas atm, by resisting its priority which they rely on to beat faster threats. Let me try and explain my poits.

Koko, despite its base 95spatk, has a supirsing punch due to the boost of electric terrain. Due to Kokos usage, teams almost require a resist to this attack, with Tangrowth working in the past, Av Bulu now rising and Ferrothorn being ever prominent while M.Venu forming the infamous VenuSteela (patlop <3) core. With Zmoves Specs and Calm Mind allowing Koko to work as effective breaker, one wrong switch and Koko can be free to spam Electric Attacks undisputed. But with its low base spatk also being its Achilles Heal, with Dazzling Gleam, Hp Ice hitting for feeble damage, even with the support of specs creating a reliance on Electric attacks and Zmoves.

Koko posses probably the second most amount of sets in Ou atm behind LandoT, being able to run physical zmove, special zmoves, Specs, Calm Mind and the very rare; Scarf, Stall Breaker and many other options which can be considered less viable, but due to the customisability of Koko can still work on many teams, such as Thunder for Rain teams, defog for extra support, Natures Madness to chunk common switch ins and many of these lesser used sets have still seen usage on prominent teams throughout the generation. Its also can get by many of its most common checks with certain moves, almost being able to chose its own answers, allowing for a team to more easily deal with them. Hp Fire smacks Ferro, Hp Ice nails Lando and Zygarde, while Grass Knot can snipe Hippo, Quag and Gastrodon but also Z-Brave Bird can be used as a lure to Grass Types such as Tangrowth, M.Venu and Bulu. In this versatility it is to note that Koko is still somewhat predictable, running Tbolt and UTurn on most of these sets, also the fact although it processes these sets, Specs is still the most common. But not knowing the set could lose you your Chansey to Z-Wild Charge or M.Venusaur to Z-Brave Bird etc etc.

If youre still reading, take a breaker and enjoy a funny cat video

However these traits make it no way near S rank worthy, with many of the A - A+ beating it in these solo aspects. But when you combine this with the immense support Koko can provide a team, I believe it makes Koko define the meta through its support, making it at the very least best in A+ and perhaps, S.

The Electric Terrain support Koko has provided has alone made a mon (Hawlucha) being nommed for A ranking, being essential to its success but with a plethora of other mons it supports with its boost of Electric moves, M.Medicham, KyuremB, Magearna, M.Mawile, Magnezone, Keldeo (Specs Hp Electric) and M.Diancie allowing them to break past defensive mons thatd usually stop them dead or limit them of pick off other threats. I cannot express the significance of this enough. This with the fact that some of the tiers best defensive pokemon are scared of taking Kokos attacks, Lando scared of Hp Ice, Celeteela and Toxapex afraid of any Electric attack, Magearna and Chansey fearing ZWild Charge, and M.Scizor and Clefable being significantly chunked by neutral hits, allowing Koko can find many oppotunities to pick up momentum for team, making it an excellent choice on offence and BO almost a staple on any Volt Turn, being able to gain momentum on its many forced switches and easily bring in the tiers most threatening wallbreakers, which most can easily abuse many of its switch ins .

Though the amount of switching makes Koko more susceptable to spike stacking and wear, its low base 95 spatk and poor physical increasing its reliance on Zmoves and Electric moves and although it can potentially beat a large portion of its checks through various coverage, it still leaves its being taken advantage by another threar, howevr the momentum it provides and its consistency to provide support in near every match up far out weighs these points imo and make it potentially S.

Despite all this, my current meta knowledge is kinda lacking, and although I think its the best, imo, in A rank, im not 100% sure if it should be S.

E: (didnt get time to finish everything id like to say, so i might come back and edit/refine the post later :] )

 

[robofiend]

Ok, ill respond to this cuz im the 1 who said lop deserves a rise. You posted a lot of stuff but it all seems like theory.

I got the replays here n im not sure if u actually watched them but ill repost them again.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671855684
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-671891341

U mentioned pex & landot are problems I disposed off his landot and had very little problems with pex as u can see. Also u can see here encore is no gimmick lol, the most optimal smogon set is literally pup/encore/dual stab. I dont think ice punch is even good on lop anyways, id rather pair lop with something that can dent landot severely than run ice punch 90% of the time.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-678400857

Zapdos can be pressured out with sr and other physical atkers as u can see here. Also once again encore saves the day.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670910634
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-670915338

These final 2 replays show u how good encore + pup is.

Also i think u misunderstand lop is not a sweeper primarily. Its good cuz it can rk ashgren & koko easily 1st and foremost, then its also capable of doing something for your team regardless of what team u face (stall, offense, balance etc.) but thats only if run encore pup, thats why i think its so good. Other powerful megas like medicham pinsir etc they struggle to put in work if ur opp has sableye or zapdos.

Ill admit bulu is a problem for my team but i usually wear it down with spikes n sr and working from there.

I understand what your saying, and I think your team is great but I'd like to point out a couple things:

1. In replay 1 your opponent makes several really bad plays and a lot of the heavy lifting came from your support mons. All Lop did was Encore Hawlucha at the right time - like I said originally, this can be a really costly 50/50 if you mess it up.

2. In replay two your opponent again blew it by sacking Lucha too early (not to mention it was the same team/opponent - not exactly a "new" replay). In this match, however, you did play Lopunny extremely well and ultimately swept, which was cool.

3. Your success in replay 3 against Zapdos was contingent on your admittedly good playing around it and using Lele to force it out. In your third replay, Lopunny doesn't have to deal with Lando or Zapdos, both of whom were listed as common problems for Lop. By forcing your opponent to sack these two early.

4. I won't comment on that TR team, your opponent had a bad team and didn't have any of the checks/counters that I mentioned.

Overall I don't see M-Lopunny being the overpowering force on your team. Lele, Latios, Zygarde, Landorus and Ferrothorn are all A/S ranks for a reason, and they all contribute to your team's success. I'm gonna use your team and come back, but again, all I'm saying is that I don't see Lopunny being "A" as opposed to "A-" - it just has some problems (listed above) that it has trouble with unless it has the proper team support.

 

[MANNAT]

While I’m sitting in a car on the way to New York, I guess I’ll weigh in on a couple of the things being discussed atm because I have nothing better to do. That also means I won’t be able to put in any cool sprites or anything, so sorry in advance for this post being wall-of-texty.

Tapu Koko to S: Strongly Disagree
This should never have been a discussion in the first place. Tapu Koko is a fantastic offensive pivot and the best momentum gainer in the tier but it is by no means as metagame defining as Toxapex or Landorus-T, nor does it perform as consistency as the two in every game. Toxapex and Landorus-T have literally been warping the metagame for a good while now and forcing teams to be constructed a certain way to the degree that having an “offensive breaker that comes in on Toxapex” is borderline mandatory on every team and everyone and their mom knows how metagame defining Landorus-T is and all you have to do to get a glimpse of its versatility is look at its analysis page. Tapu Koko doesn’t warp teambuilding the way that Landorus-T and Toxapex have. This nommination would’ve made a bit more sense a couple weeks ago, but if anything Tapu Koko has gotten slightly worse lately with the exponential rise in AV Tapu Bulu on teams and thus fewer offensive teams being as Koko weak as they were before. This point specifically leads into my next nommination quite nicely.

Tapu Bulu to A+: Agree
Tapu Bulu should definitely rise as it has quickly become one of the best defensive pivots in the tier with the discovery of its Assault Vest set while still being one of the most threatening breakers in the tier. It’s Assault Vest set checks a fuckton of Pokemon that have been trending upwards lately, namely Zygarde, while also checking some of the metagame mainstays such as the aforementioned Tapu Koko, Ash Greninja, Tapu Lele, and more.

Hawlucha to A-: Agree
Hawlucha has been a fantastic sweeper and it’s only going to get better. Roost allows Hawlucha to turn Landorus-T into setup bait, Hawlucha can just bust past offensive teams after a Swords Dance boost, and the recent rise in more defensive Tapu Bulu sets only helps it be a more threatening force. Zapdos usage being at an all time low for this generation isn’t exactly hurting Hawlucha either, but the rising Mega Pinsir usage is somewhat upsetting for Hawlucha. However, Hawlucha is undeniably one of the top 3 setup sweepers in the tier and should be ranked as such due to just how threatening it is and the insane pressure that it exerts on opposing teams.

There’s a couple of noms I could talk about, but those were the main ones I want to address. I wish everyone a happy new year and hope you had a great day yesterday!

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

With the amount of discussion on Tapu Koko having a chance of moving upwards with no argument going anywhere I can see Tapu Koko getting blacklisted by Flinchinator.

To not make this a one-liner, I support Hawlucha to A- rank. It's one of the most disgusting sweepers late-game and probably the best besides Magearna and Volcarona (Who has 4MSS because if it's not running Z-Psychic it loses to Haze Pex and if it's not running HP Ground it loses to Heatran and if it's not running Bug Buzz or Giga Drain it loses to Tyranitar or bulky Water types that aren't Pex which means this could actually make Volcarona worse than Hawlucha). Most of the time when some Pokemon are heavily weakened, unless I play poorly, Hawlucha destroys absolutely everything. It's only major weakness is the fact that you can only sweep once, but unlike Porygon-Z or Kommo-o, once is enough to massively weaken a team if not end the game, and of course it's best paired with Lele (To block priority) or Tapu Koko (Because it's the most viable out of all the Tapus right now and VoltTurn). It also has very few hard checks and counters, which is mostly that of Zapdos and Toxapex, and unless you get burnt Hawlucha pretty much sets up on Pex and if you have Stone Edge then at +2 you can take out Zapdos.

 

[comma]

Lele doesn’t block priority for Hawlucha since it isn’t grounded but the SpDed boost is nice for Ash Gren I guess. Tapu Koko isn’t going to S anytime soon. If any A+ mon has a tiny chance of going to S it’s Kartana and maaaaayybe Ash Greninja.

Mega Venusaur is bad

 

[LordHelix]

Lele doesn’t block priority for Hawlucha since it isn’t grounded but the SpDed boost is nice for Ash Gren I guess. Tapu Koko isn’t going to S anytime soon. If any A+ mon has a tiny chance of going to S it’s Kartana and maaaaayybe Ash Greninja.

Kartana is no where near as versatile as tapu koko which literally can be customized to fit on most teams, heck it even is the reason that kyurem-b and hawlucha are so good right now with its terrain support and amazing offensive synergy, not to mention it has the most sets of any A+ rank (a nuke specs user? it can do it. A revenge killer/scarfer? It can do that too. A support utility mon? Easy. A stallbreaker? Taunt + z wild charge is ur friend. Weak to celespex cores? ... yea basically u get it)

And for ash gren, as long as chansey and pex usage stays the same i cant see ash gren being s ranked, its so one dimensional that it cant even punish them by luring them unlike other A+ mons (yea life orb protean exists but ive havent seen it for ages seriously, its 90% of the time gonna be ash gren or scarf protean)

 

[micmacaroni]

Just playing the devil's advocate here so discussion isn't entirely one sided (I support hawlucha's rise to A-. To be brief, I believe his upsides heavily outweigh his downsides and he just stands out from all the other pokemon ranked at B+)

Hawlucha is a scary threat for offense, but that's about it. If balance plays their checks well, then there's nothing to worry about, and stall, well phys def toxapex, quagsire, and/or unaware clef are all really annoying for hawlucha to go through lol.

Hawlucha hits relatively hard after a swords dance boost, but after playing with hawlucha some time, I've found that it has trouble setting up swords dance and staying healthy, even with roost. The only offensive threats that hawlucha can set up on is scarf kartana and mega gyarados. I've listed a few examples below of how much damage hawlucha takes if it wants to set up on other offensive threats

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252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 238-282 (73.6 - 87.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Blacephalon Fire Blast vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 292-345 (90.4 - 106.8%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Vortex (185 BP) vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 438-516 (135.6 - 159.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Sludge Bomb vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 168-198 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
60+ Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha in Grassy Terrain: 118-140 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO (note hawlucha can't roost this off without taking neutral damage from wood hammer)

It has to take some chip before it gets KO'd by priority users, calcs ordered from highest to lowest. The most relevant one is specs ash gren, needing just a tiny bit of chip in order to secure a KO.

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252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 243-288 (75.2 - 89.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Weavile Ice Shard vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 158-188 (48.9 - 58.2%) -- 97.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 152-182 (47 - 56.3%) -- 81.3% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Water Shuriken (15 BP) (3 hits) vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 138-165 (42.7 - 51%) -- approx. 0.4% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 102-120 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- 83% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 78-93 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 97.8% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 68-81 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Fake Out vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO

Even then, there are checks which can beat +2 hawlucha in a 1v1 scenario, listed from most consistent to most shaky (imo)

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+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 240+ Def Zapdos: 148-175 (38.6 - 45.6%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Discharge vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 306-360 (94.7 - 111.4%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 255-300 (79.9 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 524-618 (162.2 - 191.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Explosion vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 274-323 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 210-248 (74.7 - 88.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha in Electric Terrain: 518-612 (160.3 - 189.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Play Rough vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 276-328 (85.4 - 101.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Mimikyu Shadow Sneak vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 62-74 (19.1 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 313-369 (87.4 - 103%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 240-283 (74.3 - 87.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Zygarde Extreme Speed vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 68-81 (21 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO

+2 252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 273-322 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Clefable Moonblast vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 288-338 (89.1 - 104.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO

If you were wondering about my first set of calcs, there's 4 possible scenarios that happen when hawlucha gets in

-Hawlucha sets up a SD, opponent switches out to their check/counter
-Hawlucha sets up an SD, opponent stays in and attacks and deals a lot of damage to hawlucha
-Hawlucha (doesn't set up and SD and) attacks the opposing pokemon, who chose to stay in
-Hawlucha (doesn't set up an SD and) attacks the opposing pokemon, who just switched out to their check/counter.

Scenario 4 is very bad for the hawlucha user, who lost momentum and doesn't even have any SD boosts, so it normally doesn't happen between 2 good players. Scenario 1 generally occurs only when the opponent still has a counter available, so let's focus on the key scenarios 2 and 3. These scenarios take advantage the possible outcomes by saying "ok, so hawlucha either sets up here and I attack it, weakening it for one of my priority users or defensive tanks to finish the job, or it attacks me and kills me, allowing one of my following pokemon to revenge kill." In short, this mindset allows offense or balance to never get swept by hawlucha, even if they have no actual checks.

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252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Lele: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Tapu Lele Psychic vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha in Psychic Terrain: 644-758 (199.3 - 234.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 187-222 (62.1 - 73.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 309-364 (95.6 - 112.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 200 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 163-193 (46.4 - 54.9%) -- 66% chance to 2HKO
56 SpA Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 534-630 (165.3 - 195%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 157-186 (43.8 - 51.9%) -- 12.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 171-202 (52.9 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 40 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 153-180 (60.9 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Play Rough vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 470-554 (145.5 - 171.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kingdra: 193-228 (66 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Surf vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha in Rain: 424-501 (131.2 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha High Jump Kick vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 174-205 (60.2 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Rotom-Wash Volt Switch vs. 104 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 318-374 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Hawlucha Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 190-225 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Gyarados Supersonic Skystrike (160 BP) vs. +1 104 HP / 0 Def Hawlucha: 432-510 (133.7 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

There's probably a lot more I'm missing.

And one final point, unlike hawlucha, other sweepers like volcarona, kartana, zygarde, or magearna CAN come in several times before they decide that conditions are right to sweep. After electric seed activates, if hawlucha ever switches out, then its incredible speed is neutered and it can no longer threaten to sweep without being revenge killed by faster pokemon.

 

[superstrike66]

Zapdos B+ to A-

I agree with this nom, since 'dos with roost + 3 attacks can OHKO lead landos with rocks (or garchomps with rocks, although this is rare) with hp ice, which is nice to not have to worry about rocks the rest of the match. It also can KO or greatly damage common 'mons like zygarde, ferrothorn, celesteela, Magnezone and the ones listed by wyattdev . All in all, I think zapdos is a great lead, and a big threat to many 'mons.

 

[comma]

Kartana is no where near as versatile as tapu koko which literally can be customized to fit on most teams, heck it even is the reason that kyurem-b and hawlucha are so good right now with its terrain support and amazing offensive synergy, not to mention it has the most sets of any A+ rank (a nuke specs user? it can do it. A revenge killer/scarfer? It can do that too. A support utility mon? Easy. A stallbreaker? Taunt + z wild charge is ur friend. Weak to celespex cores? ... yea basically u get it)

And for ash gren, as long as chansey and pex usage stays the same i cant see ash gren being s ranked, its so one dimensional that it cant even punish them by luring them unlike other A+ mons (yea life orb protean exists but ive havent seen it for ages seriously, its 90% of the time gonna be ash gren or scarf protean)

Just like Koko, Kartana can fit on any archetype besides stall as a revenge killer and wallbreaker. It can work as a breaker, scarfer and still has utility in defog. It isn't as versatile as Koko but with certain sets it can break through any defensive core. Kartana is like naganadel, i feel. It isn't as good as naga but it has very limited defensive counterplay on it's set up set and still functions as arguably the best or 2nd best scarfer and defogger in the tier.

As for ash greninja, that is why I said it most likely won't be S. First of all, since full stall is pretty dead rn, chansey isn't very common. It's common spikes set can break through it's most common checks like venusaur, ferrothorn and toxapex. Obviously, av bulu is everywhere now and probably the best ash gren check, but ash gren can lure it and kill with gunk shot while tapu koko can't really take out most bulky grasses without running brave bird and taking recoil and losing out on running other important moves like roost/taunt/defog/hp ice. Although unfortunately, gunk shot ash greninja loses out on spikes. Unlike, ash greninja which can beat most of it's checks with it's spike sets or lure AV Bulu with gunk shot. Gunk Shot is also great on rain teams to lure Bulu for the rest of the team to break.

In conclusion, none of these mons are going to be S. On the extremely odd chance that one of them are, it won't be Tapu Koko. Now can we stop talking about Tapu Koko since people are just using old arguments and not bringing anything new to the table. Finchinator and gary are probably going to blacklist Tapu Koko if this goes on for much longer. Also, to the first guy who nommed koko and the guy who nommed ferrothorn a while back, stop nomming A+ mons to S with no real strong arguments just to stir up conversation.

Mega Venusaur is bad

 

[cityscapes]

As for ash greninja, that is why I said it most likely won't be S. First of all, since full stall is pretty dead rn, chansey isn't very common. It's common spikes set can break through it's most common checks like venusaur, ferrothorn and toxapex. Obviously, av bulu is everywhere now and probably the best ash gren check, but ash gren can lure it and kill with gunk shot while tapu koko can't really take out most bulky grasses without running brave bird and taking recoil and losing out on running other important moves like roost/taunt/defog/hp ice. Unlike, ash greninja which can beat most of it's checks with it's spike sets or lure AV Bulu with gunk shot. Gunk Shot is also great on rain teams to lure Bulu for the rest of the team to break.

this argument is contradictory. tapu koko "loses out on running other important moves" by running brave bird but meanwhile ash gren loses nothing by running gunk shot? if you have to give up one of hydro/pulse/shuriken/spikes to run a move that hits 1 mon, there will be drawbacks man.

new nom: muk-a to c+

i feel that people have forgotten about this mon. the meta has been very kind to it. special attackers that threaten it, like zard y, are on the decline. tapu bulu is fantastic right now and makes a great partner thanks to grassy terrain recovery + weakening eq while muk switches in on dangerous foes like blacephalon. absorbing toxic spikes is an amazing boon in this pex heavy meta too. because of this i think muk a should rise

 

[BodaciousT]

Actually my first post ever on Smogon. First of all, Merry Christmas, and now, I’ll briefly talk about a big topic at the moment, which is Tapu Koko rising to S.

I think that I speak for a lot of people when I say that Tapu Koko is a great mon. However, Tapu Koko rising to S is a very controversial topic, and in my opinion, a very disagreeable one. For one, an argument for it to rise to S is its offensive presence, which is admittedly very good with Electric Terrain. However, while its TBolt is very powerful, the rest of its moves aren’t as exciting. Most of the time you’ll be running a special LO, Specs, or Magnet (If that’s still used) set. When you say a powerful Dazzling Gleam, I usually don’t think of Tapu Koko. It is also pretty strapped for moveslots. Most sets have U-Turn and/or Volt Switch, TBolt, Dazzling Gleam, and another move if not running 2 pivots. Are you running HP Fire to hit Ferrothorn, or HP Ice to hit Lando? You need to pick your poison, and you can’t heavily hurt some of its checks without the proper coverage.

Another point that I would like to bring up is that Tapu Koko is clearly only on offensive teams. While Lando and Pex are some of the best mons in the tier, as Lando can fit so many roles, and Pex can check so much of the tier, Tapu Koko is fairly one-dimensional. And while you could argue that Pex is also extremely linear as well, Pex checks so much of the tier either way that it doesn’t matter. Koko is only seen on offensive teams, and furthermore, a lot of the time it’s only pivoting around in the early-game. While it’s an insane late-game cleaner, that’s assuming you preserve it, and not using its Fairy typing in a defensive attempt. You stated that one could switch in Koko on an incoming Devastating Drake, but you also stated that it switches in on Zygarde and Garchomp’s DD. It isn’t that hard to predict a hard switch to Koko, and fire off a 1K Arrows, or EQ. No matter how you spin it, Koko doesn’t offer defensive presence. Hence, Koko only appearing on offensive teams. I also would also like to look at that Scarf Koko set that was listed as a set to demonstrate its versatility.

This might be my first time posting, but it’s pretty clear why Koko should not rise. It packs an undeniably powerful TBolt, but not much else, and it only fits on offensive geared teams (balance and offense). At the end of the day, you really just need to compare Koko to Lando. Lando is clearly the definition of an S Rank. Multiple viable sets, ranging from setup sweeper to offensive rocker to defensive behemoth. Does Koko really compare to Lando?
Also as a side note, while people may use Hawluchas increase in viability and usage as an excuse to rise Koko, wouldn’t you really just be rising Lucha instead? Thanks for taking the time to read this, hopefully will throw out a nom soon. Feedback is great.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

this argument is contradictory. tapu koko "loses out on running other important moves" by running brave bird but meanwhile ash gren loses nothing by running gunk shot? if you have to give up one of hydro/pulse/shuriken/spikes to run a move that hits 1 mon, there will be drawbacks man.

new nom: muk-a to c+

i feel that people have forgotten about this mon. the meta has been very kind to it. special attackers that threaten it, like zard y, are on the decline. tapu bulu is fantastic right now and makes a great partner thanks to grassy terrain recovery + weakening eq while muk switches in on dangerous foes like blacephalon. absorbing toxic spikes is an amazing boon in this pex heavy meta too. because of this i think muk a should rise

I support Muk-A to rise to C+. AV Muk-A checks every Tapu. Can Pursuit-trap Blacepheon. It has Fire Punch/ Fire Blast to deal with Kartana , M-Scizor and Ferrothorn if need be

It's always good to strong Knock-Off plus with a bonus of adding insult to injury with a chance to inflct Posion to with Posion Touch. Poisoning an opponent after a sucessful Pursuit or Knock-off is always cruelly funny

 

[comma]

this argument is contradictory. tapu koko "loses out on running other important moves" by running brave bird but meanwhile ash gren loses nothing by running gunk shot? if you have to give up one of hydro/pulse/shuriken/spikes to run a move that hits 1 mon, there will be drawbacks man.

new nom: muk-a to c+

i feel that people have forgotten about this mon. the meta has been very kind to it. special attackers that threaten it, like zard y, are on the decline. tapu bulu is fantastic right now and makes a great partner thanks to grassy terrain recovery + weakening eq while muk switches in on dangerous foes like blacephalon. absorbing toxic spikes is an amazing boon in this pex heavy meta too. because of this i think muk a should rise

Alright fixed. That was kind of dumb. Muk is a mon I would never use but it does have a nice niche and I would support this rise.

Mega Venusaur is bad meme is getting old. Add it to your signature on your profile or stop posting it unless the discussion is actually relevant to Mega Venusaur.

^ Fair point

 

[Soul silver fan]

Camerupt: C+ to C

Personally, while I hold fond memories of it, the lack of reliable recovery kills it. Because it has to switch in multiple times across the match to check or counter pokemon like magearna and celesteela, it can get worn down by stealth rocks and repeated attacks. This leaves it very reliant on having a dedicated wish passer or Tapu Bulu. Without them, Camerupt easily gets worn down into the 2HKO range and OHKO range of attacks over time. Generally, it is also hard to fit outside of bulky/TR teams in this fast asf meta because of its slow speed but only relatively good bulk and no reliable recovery. While I support it still being ranked due to the large number of mons it can check/counter and it's insane wallbreaking power with fireblast sheer force, it just isn't reliable enough without reliable recovery.

 

[Dziga]

Camerupt: C+ to C

Personally, while I hold fond memories of it, the lack of reliable recovery kills it. Because it has to switch in multiple times across the match to check or counter pokemon like magearna and celesteela, it can get worn down by stealth rocks and repeated attacks. This leaves it very reliant on having a dedicated wish passer or Tapu Bulu. Without them, Camerupt easily gets worn down into the 2HKO range and OHKO range of attacks over time. Generally, it is also hard to fit outside of bulky/TR teams in this fast asf meta because of its slow speed but only relatively good bulk and no reliable recovery. While I support it still being ranked due to the large number of mons it can check/counter and it's insane wallbreaking power with fireblast sheer force, it just isn't reliable enough without reliable recovery.

That's pretty much the reason it's in C+, specially if you compare Camerupt with some of the actual crap that is in C rank, I think C+ is pretty good for it at the moment.

To not make this a one liner: Zard Y C+ -> Lower: Agree.
I decided to do a few matches to see if this Pokemon can actually do some good. It's really, really awful, way more awful than the usual shit you see in C+. To echo some arguments presented before. It is supposed to be a wallbreaker that fails to break the current top walls and is even more severely limited by how prevalent Balance is.

Now despite that, it's still able hit really hard with Fire STAB and differently from the current best Fire Wallbreaker, Blacephalon, it can actually hurt TTar and Heatran a lot, but the problem is that these niches are not enough to compensate it from ultimately being severely outclassed by the mentioned Blacephalon and other Wall Breakers. For the reason I mentioned before and also all other downs of using Zard such as the awful quadruple rocks weakness and mediocre speed tier.

And what kills it is that it wastes a mega slot, which is what I believe what seals it at C or even C- rank. The two C+ megas can at least make a good use of its niche. The Camerupt mentioned before is still a good checker to a number of threats and can actually decently Wallbreak, while Manectric can rely on a slightly superior speed tier and special coverage compared to Koko to justify its entry on the VR. Zard Y just can't perform its niche decently like those two and overall just have way much more downs than ups.

 

[Soul silver fan]

Manectric M: C+ to B-

This one is by a small margin. Three of the biggest reasons for this rise are Tapu Koko being everywhere, its good speed tier, and its good coverage. With the boost of electric terrain from Koko, thunderbolt deals terrifying amounts of damage, being able to OHKO or 2HKO just about everything that it hits neutrally or super effectively when they try to switch in or when Manectric switches into them. With some prior damage e.g. hazards, rough skin/iron barbs etc., the number of things it OHKOes just goes up. Tapu Koko is easy to fit onto many team archetypes, meaning you won`t have to make extensive modifications to fit Manectric onto it. Additionally, it synergizes well with Koko's U-turn/Volt Switch and ability to bring in pokemon like Ferrothorn or Scizor and the like to check it, which Manectric can then check e.g. Overheat for the latter two, HP ice for Lando ( OHKOes offensive variants and OHKOes defensive variants after rocks ) etc. Intimidate also helps with this pivoting role by increasing Manectric's survivability in its role as a pivot.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar in Electric Terrain: 288-339 (109.9 - 129.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega in Electric Terrain: 234-276 (86.3 - 101.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 258-306 (84.8 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Overheat vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 572-676 (166.7 - 197%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Its good speed tier is more of a side note to the coverage and Koko, but is still noteworthy. At 135 speed, it is only outsped by Alakazam M and speed ties with Lopunny M. This means that for the rest of the tier, it can outspeed it and proceed to OHKO or 2HKO as mentioned above. This also makes cleaning late game easy for it.

Lastly, its coverage is great for its role, as it can easily muscle past would be check/counters like Lando T and Ferrothorn as mentioned before. This leaves switching in to a pokemon that is not weak to fire, ice, or electric and can tank hits well. It makes for predictable plays that can be exploited as not many pokemon on teams resist all three types. For example, if Swampert M or Heatran or Marowak A or Mega Venusaur tried to switch in, the play would be relatively easy to counter, as all of the pokemon have exploitable weaknesses that are not too hard to use against them, though mega venusaur is somewhat harder to counter.

But this pokemon is held back from getting up any further by its ehh power without Koko, as it doesn't have anything to boost up its power with, and it is extremely predictable, making counter plays not very hard. Another reason this thing isn't rising any higher because scarfers still pose some problems for it, as they outspeed Manectric and can deal some serious damage, though scarfers can be easily dealt with by switching in the appropriate pokemon once they are choice locked.

 

[James9LG]

if some of the things I say in this post are wrong, sorry, not incredibly familiar with this pokemon since I haven't used this thing since like ORAS
Manectric-M C+ --> B- Disagree
While Koko usage being high can be good for Manectric, one of the main problems it has is that it's outclassed by Koko, which fills Manectric's roles and better. One of Manectric's main roles is it's ability to be useful on volt-turn, but Koko has U-turn and volt switch, meaning that it can't be stopped from switching out by common ground types. Also, since Koko can use an item, it hits harder than Manectric by using Choice Specs. While being locked in as Koko isn't great, specs isn't the only thing Koko can use, as it can also use z-crystals effectively. By what you're saying if you're using Manectric you'll be using Koko anyways, so just use Koko and use Manectric's slot for something else.

I'm not saying Manectric should drop, as it still has a few niches over Koko, like being able to OHKO Lando-T without specs, having good fire coverage(meaning it can OHKO Ferrothorn and 2HKO AV Tapu Bulu), and its slightly higher speed which actually means a bit, as it can outspeed ash-gren. However, it being outclassed by Koko in it's main role of volt-turning and Koko having higher electrical power without any team support is what's holding it back from being higher than C+

 

[paoisd]

I was just about to make the mane nom up myself. i am a huge believer in this mon and i think it is sooooooooo much better than all the garbage in c+ (except for azu). One thing that Soul silver fan didn't talk about is how it's ability to be a pivot is boosted even more by the fact that it has intimidate so it has some sort of defensive utility. It also obviously has the speed which is huge in allowing it to pretty consistently check greninja. also many teams right now are just super weak to mane with it's great coverage as well as speed and volt switch. overall this thing is super overdue for a rise

 

[Soul silver fan]

I was just about to make the mane nom up myself. i am a huge believer in this mon and i think it is sooooooooo much better than all the garbage in c+ (except for azu). One thing that Soul silver fan didn't talk about is how it's ability to be a pivot is boosted even more by the fact that it has intimidate so it has some sort of defensive utility. It also obviously has the speed which is huge in allowing it to pretty consistently check greninja. also many teams right now are just super weak to mane with it's great coverage as well as speed and volt switch. overall this thing is super overdue for a rise

In addition, it doesn`t suffer from Koko's 4MSS, being able to run both fire coverage ( overheat ) and Ice ( HP Ice )at the same time, preventing anything from outright checking/countering it completely. For example, if Lando or Tangrowth wanted to switch in to Manectric, both have to fear a supereffective move, while with Koko, with a bit of scouting, one can reliably switch into it without fear. It also does not require specs to hit hard with coverage. Because without specs, coverage coming off a base 95 special attack is not very strong. But anything above b- is a no-no, because it simply cannot compete and stand out among its would-be peers in the B ranks.

 

[James9LG]

Tbh I think that Manectric isn't horrible, and I could see it in B- but there's still a few things. For one, Manectric doesn't hit as hard as Koko outside of electric terrain, even without specs.

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 216-254 (71 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex in Electric Terrain: 306-360 (100.6 - 118.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Heatran in Electric Terrain: 204-240 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 144-171 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar: 142-168 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Manectric-Mega Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable: 165-195 (41.8 - 49.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magnet Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Clefable in Electric Terrain: 232-274 (58.8 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So it really depends on what your team needs and/or already has.
Koko Pros: Hits much harder with electric moves, great support partner with electric terrain, much less one-dimensional, amazing pivot, can use an item adding to its versatility.
Cons: Much weaker coverage, slower than Manectric, meaning it's outsped by stuff like ash-gren, has 4MSS sometimes, but only on certain sets.
Manectric Pros: Much better and more powerful coverage, decent volt-turner albeit worse than Koko, higher speed, intimidate meaning it has a small amount of defensive presence.
Cons: Uses a mega slot, weaker electric moves than Koko without electric terrain, requires a lot of support, predictable in that it's always going to have the same 4 moves.

So Manectric is a solid option if:
You have no mega
You're weak to ash-gren
Have no answer to Koko's usual checks like lando-t and Ferro
However, I still believe it should stay in C+ due to it still being very niche as well the meta not changing all to much for it. The only big meta shift that I see in Manectric's favor is the immense decline of mega Venusaur, as well as the further rise of Tapu Bulu which Mane can beat if not AV. So while I could see a potential rise, I still feel that there's too much holding Manectric back for it to go to B-

 

[fightnugget]

Mega manectric faces competition for its team slot not just from Koko, who hits harder with elec stab and offers more utility, but Zapdos who offers the same coverage, has potentially more power depending on item, and reliable recovery. Other mons in b- and even some in c+ have more unique niches they fulfill more optimally than mega manectric.

Is there a specific partner that works better with mega manectric over koko/zapdos? Do you have any replays showing why mega manectric is making waves in the metagame?

 

[NintendoVSPlaystation]

I know someone said this already, but I personally agree with Tapu Bulu to A+. Being resistant to common Pokemon in the meta ( Tapu Koko, Lando T, Toxapex and plenty of fighting types ( Haluncha / Keldeo ) ) is actually really good.

Tapu Bulu is actually tanky enough, and if it gets a sword dance it can ruin a Toxapex's day ( unless it gets burned ).
252 SpA Magearna Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tapu Bulu: 272-324 (79 - 94.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tapu Bulu in Grassy Terrain: 85-101 (24.7 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 56 SpD Tapu Bulu: 149-176 (43.3 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
It can be really hard to kill ( unless Toxic ) if it has an Assault Vest when it comes to special defense. I know this applies to many Pokemon but it is resistant to a lot of the top OU Pokemon.
It can hit other common threats really hard if it gets a swords dance up.
+2 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex in Grassy Terrain: 313-370 (102.9 - 121.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Tapu Bulu Wood Hammer vs. 252 HP / 135+ Def Landorus-Therian in Grassy Terrain: 382-450 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Keep up the good work, I enjoy everyone's posts!

 

[BeardyBennett]

A couple things I'd like to add to the Mane discussion.

A huge advantage of Koko over Mane is that Koko has U-Turn. Meaning it can gain momentum on literally anything. Mane cannot, as Volt is blocked by Electric immunities, meaning Mane essentially wastes a turn if it incorrectly Volts. This is a big reason why I would opt for Koko over Mane.

Secondly, Koko is in A+. Mane is in C+. I feel that pointing out what Koko does better and trying to compare the two is a bit....odd? Saying Koko is better shouldn't necessarily mean Mane can't rise. Reason being that even though they have the same primary job (fast, offensive Electric that will focus on attacking), they both are very different still. Mane has Intimidate and access to great Fire coverage. Meaning it's an Electric Mon that can still work well against Grass mons, which can fit the needs of teams differently than Koko with its other coverage options. If you have a lot of Grass answers, opt for Koko. If you are a little Grass weak, go for the better-suited Mane. Likewise if you're worried about physical offense/set-up, then opt for Mane. If you want better momentum-grabbing, a Dragon answer, and potential stallbreaker than go Koko.

I'm not saying Mane should rise, in fact I think it's fine where it is, but using Koko superiority as a reason not to rise it doesn't make sense given Mane has a couple distinct advantages/differences.