Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Deleted User [433215]]

Zapdos: A- -> A
Zapdos has been making the rounds as one of OU’s most useful pokemon. It counters a huge threat in hawlucha as well as flying types in general. And with its bulky spread, it can take a ton of hits and just roost up. The speedy spread gets the benefit of beating zygarde. It can also defog very effectively against most rockers. Although a weakness to rocks kinda sucks, it’s proven itself to be a capable A pokemon imo.

 

[blank]

Nominating Rotom-W to B-/C+

When you look at B+ right now, everything pretty much makes sense except this guy. Seriously, what does it do? It rose from early USUM hype about getting Defog, but the problem with that is that a bunch of infinitely better stuff also got Defog (though it fills a different role, I'd much sooner use Lando-T/Kart/Gliscor/Torn-T for Defog, and that's just counting the ones that got it in USUM). The only thing Rotom does is sit there and wish it was Zapdos. Honestly, Zapdos just does everything Rotom does but better. Despite being Rocks weak it's an infinitely better Defogger, reliable recovery and a better defensive typing makes Zapdos a much better blanket check to things like Pinsir and Lucha than Rotom could ever hope to be, and it even gets Volt Switch too if you want it to pivot. The only niche I see this having over Zapdos is being a Water resist and forcing out Heatran, but

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 108-127 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-Wash: 157-186 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

and if you're using specially defensive Rotom then you're making a mistake. As for Heatran, the rise of Gastro means that Bloom Doom Tran is coming back, and that utterly destroys Rotom. Right now B+ has two "glue" mons that are comparable in role to Rotom (Tangrowth and Gastrodon, I guess Venu but I won't talk about it since it takes a Mega slot) and when you compare Rotom to them it becomes clear that Rotom does not belong. Both are great blanket checks to a bunch of top metagame threats, have reliable recovery, and are reliable pivots. Rotom's middling defenses and lack of useful resistances mean that it's getting chunked whenever it comes in on a neutral hit, and with only Pain Split to keep you healthy you're getting worn down really quickly. (keep in mind that if you want Pain Split you probably have to give up Will-o-Wisp, which leaves you helpless and complete bait against things like Bulu, Kyu-B, and even Zygarde) And again, why not just use Zapdos?

I've seen people claim that Rotom's niche lies in offensive Waterium-Z sets, but that argument falls flat. Every team has a solid Water resist due to Ash-Gren running around, so with decent prediction that Hydro Vortex is getting sucked up easily. And without significant investment in either defense Rotom becomes even more susceptible to chip, leaving it unable to do its job of Defogging with any consistency. Flyinium-Z Torn works because Flying is an incredible offensive type, and Regenerator gives it the durability to come back in and clear hazards. Rotom has none of that. Whether offensive or defensive, this thing is one of the least reliable Defoggers in the tier. And again, why not just use Zapdos?

I said B- at the top so that this drop wasn't too drastic (although Blace just showed us that ought not be a concern) but I'm convinced this deserves C+ or even lower. Even in B-, we see mons like Amoonguss, Tapu Fini, and Jirachi, which although somewhat niche options fulfill their roles excellently and contribute a lot to teams that need their specific support. I'd sooner use any of these mons on a team than Rotom. Rotom legitimately has no niche. Because again, why not just use Zapdos?

tl;dr Rotom sucks, just use Zapdos, drop pls

I understand where you are coming from with wanting Rotom-W to drop, but it is clear you have not provided sufficient reasoning as to why it should drop two or even three subranks. Pokemon only rise or fall more than one subrank in fringe cases, such as when the Pokemon sees a sudden spark in viability or when the thread has not been updated for awhile and arguments build up. Neither of these things has happened in Rotom-W's case, so there really is no reason for it to drop so drastically.

I personally think Rotom-W is fine where it is, but I am not trying to argue that point. I have just noticed this trend, more than ever before, of people nominating Pokemon up or down 2+ ranks with no real justification for doing so. This is just bad argumentation. You can have a fine post, but when you are nominating a Pokemon up/down multiple ranks, it makes you look uninformed, making it hard to take your post seriously.

 

[naturalstupidity]

I understand where you are coming from with wanting Rotom-W to drop, but it is clear you have not provided sufficient reasoning as to why it should drop two or even three subranks. Pokemon only rise or fall more than one subrank in fringe cases, such as when the Pokemon sees a sudden spark in viability or when the thread has not been updated for awhile and arguments build up. Neither of these things has happened in Rotom-W's case, so there really is no reason for it to drop so drastically.

I personally think Rotom-W is fine where it is, but I am not trying to argue that point. I have just noticed this trend, more than ever before, of people nominating Pokemon up or down 2+ ranks with no real justification for doing so. This is just bad argumentation. You can have a fine post, but when you are nominating a Pokemon up/down multiple ranks, it makes you look uninformed, making it hard to take your post seriously.

Forgive me if I'm missing something here since I have not been on Smogon in a long time, but I don't see why we should constrain ourselves to only nomming things to move one sub-rank if there is a case to be made that such a move doesn't accurately reflect its viability. I understand not wanting it to drop if you feel it's placed well at B+, but especially if something hasn't been discussed in a while and the metagame has greatly shifted around it (as can probably be said for Rotom, I skimmed the viability thread and I didn't see anybody even talking about its viability since December, and I think we can all agree that the metagame now is noticeably different than the one from 5-6 months ago) it just seems self-limiting to discount nominations on the basis that they're bigger jumps than we're accustomed to.

Look at RU, where Golisopod rose five(!) subranks, from C- -> B+ iirc, in a single slate because people realized that its place in the metagame was not reflected by its current position. There's nothing about significant shifts that's inherently bad argumentation, although I'll give you that the standard to prove it is definitely higher - and I'm happy to offer more evidence against Rotom's current position if people feel it's necessary.

Back to Rotom's viability, I'm curious why you think it's accurately placed in B+. When you compare it to the mons in B+ it seems lacking, and arguably the same for some of the ones in B-. I don't see it as having a niche that makes it deserving of its present rank.

 

[bb skarm]

I understand where you are coming from with wanting Rotom-W to drop, but it is clear you have not provided sufficient reasoning as to why it should drop two or even three subranks. Pokemon only rise or fall more than one subrank in fringe cases, such as when the Pokemon sees a sudden spark in viability or when the thread has not been updated for awhile and arguments build up. Neither of these things has happened in Rotom-W's case, so there really is no reason for it to drop so drastically.

I personally think Rotom-W is fine where it is, but I am not trying to argue that point. I have just noticed this trend, more than ever before, of people nominating Pokemon up or down 2+ ranks with no real justification for doing so. This is just bad argumentation. You can have a fine post, but when you are nominating a Pokemon up/down multiple ranks, it makes you look uninformed, making it hard to take your post seriously.

idk where u got some of this from, there have been multiple cases in the past few years where a pokemon has been ignored for a bit and dropped more than one subrank... from what i can tell rotom hasn't been discussed in a min, chill out

 

[Ske]

Nominating To Drop Celesteela to A>A-

Celesteela is in a awkward state right now, with Heatran usage at a all time high and Magnezone being very prevalent and very often pared with scarf Kartana & Pinsir-Mega, threats its supposed to check, i think Celesteela warrants a drop. with many solid Pokemon in A such as Volcorona Hawlucha Tornadus Scizor-Mega Medicham-Mega, i feel like A is slightly out of place and being in A- with still very solid mons in Chansey, Gliscor, Zapdos, i feel is more suited for this Pokemon. A couple of months back Celesteela + Toxapex was one of the best cores in the metagame, but now with Toxapex not being as consistant and common, mons like lefties Heatran, Gastrodon, Taunt Knock Off Gliscor, Wish Clef to pass into mons to deal with Celesteela and even more offensive mons that it used to check are running coverage and techs for it, such as knock torn removing its lefties and alot of good set up sweeper rn such as Reuniclus and Sub Coil Zygarde & Volcorona can use it as set up fodder.

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

idk where u got some of this from, there have been multiple cases in the past few years where a pokemon has been ignored for a bit and dropped more than one subrank... from what i can tell rotom hasn't been discussed in a min, chill out

https://www.smogon.com/forums/search/1073477/?q=rotom&t=post&c[thread]=3621329&o=date
^ There's every mention of rotom in this thread - should be from the beginning but idk how this shit indexes but it looks like its all of it. It's pretty recent and kinda frequent so while it may not have been nommed it had been mentioned in discussion many many times; in other words shes kinda right #ProtectBasedStarryAtAllCosts #TaskForce

 

[bb skarm]

https://www.smogon.com/forums/search/1073477/?q=rotom&t=post&c[thread]=3621329&o=date
^ There's every mention of rotom in this thread - should be from the beginning but idk how this shit indexes but it looks like its all of it. It's pretty recent and kinda frequent so while it may not have been nommed it had been mentioned in discussion many many times; in other words shes kinda right #ProtectBasedStarryAtAllCosts #TaskForce

Idk why U made this post. Idc for mentions of the word rotom. I know rotom hasn't been actually discussed for a min now. I actually read the thread. They made a wrong statement period

 

[Yoshi]

Don't really want to continue this conversation because it's kind of dumb, but I'd just like to add that most of those mentions of Rotom are within nominations, and not actually nominations of Rotom-Wash itself. If I'm not mistaken, discussion on the placement of Rotom-Wash hasn't taken place in over a month. Most of the mentions of Rotom-Wash are about comparing a Pokemon to Pokemon in the B rank, or something about Mamoswine.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

Forgive me if I'm missing something here since I have not been on Smogon in a long time, but I don't see why we should constrain ourselves to only nomming things to move one sub-rank if there is a case to be made that such a move doesn't accurately reflect its viability. I understand not wanting it to drop if you feel it's placed well at B+, but especially if something hasn't been discussed in a while and the metagame has greatly shifted around it (as can probably be said for Rotom, I skimmed the viability thread and I didn't see anybody even talking about its viability since December, and I think we can all agree that the metagame now is noticeably different than the one from 5-6 months ago) it just seems self-limiting to discount nominations on the basis that they're bigger jumps than we're accustomed to.

Look at RU, where Golisopod rose five(!) subranks, from C- -> B+ iirc, in a single slate because people realized that its place in the metagame was not reflected by its current position. There's nothing about significant shifts that's inherently bad argumentation, although I'll give you that the standard to prove it is definitely higher - and I'm happy to offer more evidence against Rotom's current position if people feel it's necessary.

Back to Rotom's viability, I'm curious why you think it's accurately placed in B+. When you compare it to the mons in B+ it seems lacking, and arguably the same for some of the ones in B-. I don't see it as having a niche that makes it deserving of its present rank.

I disagree with sending Rotom-W to B or B-

It is really effective as a physical wall, has only one real weakness in grass (Barring thousand arrows or gravity lando-t). With this in mind, It can check:

Non-Gravity Lando T
Hippowdon
Heatran
Tornadus-T (Bar Knock Off)
Any slower physical attacker (with will-o-wisp)

Rotom simply checks many common stealth rock setter. Will-o-wisp is able to shut down Physical Def Lando and Rocks Tyranitar, and can Defog all hazards away. He is an excellent pivot, the only typing that is immune to Volt Switch is ground, which is weak to his secondary stab typing of water. It can also check sweepers like Gyarados. I really like his placing right now, he serves as an effective physical wall and pivot.

In short, I don't think enough has changed in the meta to warrant a drop. What it does is still very effective, and useful on many teams. If anything, with the rise of Tornadus T and Gastrodon (who Rotom can weaken with will o wisp on the switch). His usual checks of grass types are not rising in the meta, while those he does check are.
Keep in B+.

 

[Martin]

I disagree with sending Rotom-W to B or B-

It is really effective as a physical wall, has only one real weakness in grass (Barring thousand arrows or gravity lando-t). With this in mind, It can check:

Non-Gravity Lando T
Hippowdon
Heatran
Tornadus-T (Bar Knock Off)
Any slower physical attacker (with will-o-wisp)

Rotom simply checks many common stealth rock setter. Will-o-wisp is able to shut down Physical Def Lando and Rocks Tyranitar, and can Defog all hazards away. He is an excellent pivot, the only typing that is immune to Volt Switch is ground, which is weak to his secondary stab typing of water. It can also check sweepers like Gyarados. I really like his placing right now, he serves as an effective physical wall and pivot. Keep in B+.

I'm not going to comment on the nom itself because I'm not really up to date on the current meta but… this is exactly what Rotom-W has always done. These are the reasons it is on the VR at all, but it says nothing about metagame trends or anything that serves as a counter-argument for it moving down. Like, I'm not going to bloat this post with the same shit everyone who makes posts like this bloats them with with because it's kinda pointless, but come on: think before you just start listing off traits listed in its analysis overview as if they say anything about how its general utility matches up versus the current metagame. Spoiler alert: they don't, and the VR rules even state that they don't.

• When nominating a Pokemon, do not merely list its obvious qualities such as stats, typing, movepool, etc. If you think a Pokemon deserves to rise or drop, explain what has changed in the meta to cause such Pokemon to get better or worse.

 

[Discharged Xurkitree]

I'm not going to comment on the nom itself because I'm not really up to date on the current meta but… this is exactly what Rotom-W has always done. These are the reasons it is on the VR at all, but it says nothing about metagame trends or anything that serves as a counter-argument for it moving down. Like, I'm not going to bloat this post with the same shit everyone who makes posts like this bloats them with with because it's kinda pointless, but come on: think before you just start listing off traits listed in its analysis overview as if they say anything about how its general utility matches up versus the current metagame. Spoiler alert: they don't, and the VR rules even state that they don't.

Im sorry about that, I edited the post in accordance to the rules.

To avoid this being a one-liner, I would like to nominate Tyranitar Mega back to A-. Its stealth rock set is really good in the current meta, especially with the rise of Tornadus-T (bar the rare superpower). As a stealth rock setter, it is very consistent, and can function as a wallbreaker and pursuit trapper as well. That's what it does, and Pokemon it threatens such as the aforementioned Tornadus-T and Zapdos are on the rise. While it's DD set isn't the best, I feel it should have more credit given to it. In short, it's a very reliable mon to have in this meta, and can threaten the usual defoggers of the tier (Torn, Zapdos, Mew, etc.)

 

[Colonel M]

Keep the discussion focused on the Pokemon and less on the semantics. This isn't so much at Martin who brought up a good point about the nomination.

I do highly recommend one sub-rank at a time though because a good 80% of the time that's all a Pokemon will usually move in a given slate period.

I'll keep the posts for now, but any future bantering on semantics like that will likely get deleted.

Nevermind The fact I should infract every shitty UR to rank nomination but that's for another day.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

I disagree with sending Rotom-W to B or B-

It is really effective as a physical wall, has only one real weakness in grass (Barring thousand arrows or gravity lando-t). With this in mind, It can check:

Non-Gravity Lando T
Hippowdon
Heatran
Tornadus-T (Bar Knock Off)
Any slower physical attacker (with will-o-wisp)

Rotom simply checks many common stealth rock setter. Will-o-wisp is able to shut down Physical Def Lando and Rocks Tyranitar, and can Defog all hazards away. He is an excellent pivot, the only typing that is immune to Volt Switch is ground, which is weak to his secondary stab typing of water. It can also check sweepers like Gyarados. I really like his placing right now, he serves as an effective physical wall and pivot.

In short, I don't think enough has changed in the meta to warrant a drop. What it does is still very effective, and useful on many teams. If anything, with the rise of Tornadus T and Gastrodon (who Rotom can weaken with will o wisp on the switch). His usual checks of grass types are not rising in the meta, while those he does check are.
Keep in B+.

To Tell the truth, In contrast to what you said things have only gotten worse for Rotom, Heatran is now running Bloom Doom a fair bit which makes rotom's job of checking it a living hell, Tornadus-T Runs knock off on more or less every set which rotom does not like as with it's lefties gone it has nothing, Bulu being very important in the Meta also does not help it out in the slightest, It's few niches are a decent matchup against rain and checking some of the mons you mentioned, that being said, it also has trouble checking things constantly since pokemon like Mega Medicham take a massive chunk out of it.

The only thing that has been going for it recently is Wishpass Clefable, but the issue with that is, there is like 100000 better partners for Wish pass clefable. That and it checks Normal Gyarados, but you never know if it's a Mega Gyarados who obliterates you with a Boosted EQ (thanks moldbreaker) or Crunch until it's too late.

I find it very hard to compare Rotom with pokemon like Gastrodon,Tangrowth, Mega Diancie and so on and I do think that a drop to B is in order for Rotom.

 

[JustoonSmitts]

There's no doubt Rotom-W does a much better job at checking bulky Ground-types than Zapdos thanks to Will-o-Wisp crippling almost every physical attacker that comes in on the washing machine and a powerful STAB in Hydro Pump. Rotom-W is still a good pivot with Volt Switch and is in general a nice Defogger with a decent typing and good bulk.

I will say that compared to the other Pokémon in B+, Rotom-W does seem lacking. The biggest reason why (in my book) is that Grass-type Pokémon are everywhere in this metagame and Rotom-W can't really touch them aside from burning Tapu Bulu or Ferrothorn. There are plenty of Defogers that can scare away these threats like Zapdos, Landorus-T, and Tornadus-T that are all arguably better than Rotom-W. The rise of Gastrodon is also detrimental to it thanks to being immune to both of its STABS. Having no reliable recovery hurts it too. You can run Pain Split, but it's not always going to heal you like you want it to and that forces you to forgo either Will-o-Wisp or Defog. So it really forces you to run a pinch berry and even that isn't 100% guaranteed to heal you. And like Ryomathekillers stated before me, you can partner it with Wish Clefable to circumvent this problem but there are better partners for passing Wishes to.

What's worse is that the things that it's supposed to check are harder for Rotom-W to check now. Bloom Doom Heatran is on the rise thanks to Gastrodon, so now it has to be weary on the switch. Sure it can burn Mega Gyarados, but it definitely can't come in on a boosted one thanks to Mold Breaker Earthquake. Even most Pokémon it's supposed to check now run Knock Off to get rid of it's Leftovers or pinch Berry.

So while things are worse in OU for everyone's favorite washing machine, I still think it has a place in the metagame. Just know it isn't as good of an option as others. I support dropping Rotom-W to at least B or B-.

 

[robofiend]

what was that about abiding by rules of the thread?

anyway, slate was good apart from that retardation, my nigga alolem got ranked and hippo finally got the rank it deserves.
here's a nom i've wanted to make for a while:

Zygarde A+ -> S-

This Pokemon is actually fucking broken. The number of sets it can viably run is unrivaled in OU, here's a list of them;

sets (not in any particular order)

DD Dragonium, Choice Band, DD Groundium, Sub DD + Lefties, Weakness Policy, DD Steelium, Double Dance w Fat Berry, Assault Vest, Sub Coil, Sub Toxic/Glare, SpDef Rest Talk (probably more but this is just the ones I could think of rn)

Zygarde can get around pretty much any counter with the multitude of different sets it can run. Coil beats Mega Scizor and Bulu, Weakness Policy beats Clefable, Landorus, Shuca Koko, Scarf Greninja trying to Revenge and Fini, SpDef RestTalk also beats Clefable, Shuca Koko, Fini and also Tangrowth, This nom isn't so much that much has changed in the meta, its more that people have been discovering just how many viable sets this thing can run; my list doesn't even include some of the more experimental ones (Camouflage + ESpeed for example). I'd say the Weakness Policy set would be the one pushing Zygarde into S-: LL wrote a nice post about it in Creative Sets.
As for replays for the set, BKC 6-0d z0mog in SPL Semifinals here - https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen7ou-360338
This thing is definitely on level with Kartana and Heatran for their impact on the metagame - it's practically impossible to viably cover every set Zygarde can run. Get the broken ass snake into S-.

Disagree here.

I tend to think that Zyg's the best mon in A+, being bulky and strong enough to clean out weakened teams after a couple turns of setup and unpredictable enough to "pick its checks" without being bad like Volcarona (who FINALLY got moved down after months of people bandwagoning on about how it's A+ material in spite of the evidence (sorry, tangent, needed to gloat about how I was right)). But I disagree that it should move to S-, or moreover that S- is even a useful concept in a meta like we have today.

If anything I'd like to make that argument: that "S-" really doesn't make sense, that Heatran's good but not any "better" per se than Clefable or Kartana or Tapu Koko. Zygarde's good, but I don't think it's markedly better than Ash-Gren, it just does different things. And almost everything in A+ has been nommed at some point to go to "S-" which was a designation made up for Toxapex when it was having a swell in popularity, similar to what we're seeing now with Gastrodon and Clefable or a month ago when every game was KokoLucha hell. So yeah, Zygarde's good right now but it'll go back to being just plain good again when the meta readjusts to its current dominance.

As for Rotom-W from B+ -> C+: this is a truly pants-on-head nomination, Rotom-W is good and while it's certainly not perfect, it is not Araquanid or Zard-Y tier.

If anything, Rotom's actually gotten better since its first of use in OU. It has the bulk to swap in on the annoying special attackers and heal itself with PS, it has reasonable longevity as a Defogger, it can counter Torn-T and check M-Pinsir, M-Scizor, Keldeo, Heatran, Lando, Lucha, and a host of other mons, it's just not a C rank by any means. It might be decreasing slightly, because some of these mons aren't at their all time high, and it's well known that Rotom's outclassed as a Defogger (and it's probably the worst thing in B+), but moving it down multiple subranks is unrealistic.

Last, Blace should be a C rank, it has a niche it's just bad. I feel like the move to UR is mostly a meme/hate train move that doesn't actually represent the fact that it gets used sometimes and isn't actual garbage. Compare and contrast it to M-Aero, M-Alt, Avalugg, Scolipdede, M-Shark or Azelf, all of whom I've seen approximately none of EVER in an OU match.

 

[OldAmberPlays]

View attachment 115113Qwilfish C -> B-

Agree

Qwilfish likes the fact that Tapu Bulu is the #12 most used mon on the tier and Tangrowth is #24, two things that get obliterated by it and that gives trouble to rain teams. Also, with the rise of Gastrodon and Amoongus, Qwilfish fits the role of rain wallbreaker much better, since it can OHKO booth even without the SD boost.
----------
252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 424-499 (99.7 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 248 HP / 96 Def Amoonguss: 368-434 (85.3 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery
----------
Toxapex, another possible problem to the archetype, while on decline of viability, get dealt with by Qwilfish too, since it can remove its Toxic Spikes and can use it as setup fodder and 2HKO it with Liquidation in rain (if you don't wanna boom, wich is a OHKO too).
----------
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Liquidation vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex in Rain: 165-195 (54.4 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
----------
Ferrothorn, while can't be OHKO by any of Qwilfish's moves, can be dent in a range that it will fall to Swampert's Earthquake without any other chip damage or non-transformed Ash Gren's Dark Pulse after 1 layer of Spikes.
----------
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Qwilfish Explosion vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 238-279 (67.6 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 153-180 (43.4 - 51.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 208+ SpD Ferrothorn: 112-133 (31.8 - 37.7%) -- 0.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
----------
Considering the damage output that Qwilfish has, its speed tier (outspeeding everything up to Modest Tapu Koko in rain) and the recent usage of some mons that can give rain teams some trouble, I agree with Qwilfish's nom to at least C+. It REALLY belongs to a higher rank, far away from unmons like Thundurus-T and Muk-Alola (who use these nowadays? lol unrank it). I can even consider Qwilfish being the better Swift Swim abuser in the tier by the way (after Mega Swampert of course).

Now, to a original nom:

Kingdra: From B to B- (I would say C+, but B- is ok too)

Kingdra is so much outclassed as a rain sweeper by Ash-Gren, who has a more spammable secondary STAB, a high-powered priority move in Water Shuriken and Spikes, pressuring its own checks. Also, Kingdra usually (almost always) face problems breaking throught rain checkers, such as the afromencioned Tapu Bulu and Tang. To hit Mantine, It needs to give up Ice Beam to use HP Electric, now doing absolutely nothing to bulky-Grass types. Also, Kingdra HATES Gastrodon and Amoonguss getting some attencion, since they swallow hits with ease.
----------
252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 160+ SpD Assault Vest Amoonguss: 229-271 (53.1 - 62.8%) -- not a KO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Kingdra Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 305-362 (71.7 - 85.1%) -- not a KO
----------
Considering the fact that it faces very hard competition with Ash-Gren as a rain abuser and it's hard walled by high-usage mons, I'd like to nom it to at least B-. It will fit way better there, with Hippo and Quag.

 

[SeniorGibus]

Can we please re-blacklist Qwilfish? God, this conversation is going nowhere.

Anyways, thots on current noms:

Kingdra: From B to B- (I would say C+, but B- is ok too)

Agree. Kingdra is such a relic and hasn't seen any legitimate usage in months. Kingdra is dicked by every rising pokemon: Av bulu, gastrogod, amoongus, and still hates everything that made this thing bad even when rain was good: Pex, ferrothorn, tangrowth, chansey, etc. While many other strong attackers have these downsides, such as koko, ash gren, etc; they all have redeeming qualities that gains you momentum instead of loosing it (spikes and uturn) as well as being usable outside of some retarded dead playstyle.

Nominating Rotom-W to B-/C+

If anyone saw my post from a while back, it should be no surprise how I feel about this nom. Agree. However, considering it's going to drop to B whatever we nom this relic, I'm just going to say I agree only with the fact this thing should be B, this isn't on the same levels of C+ and the lower end of B- at this point, sure it's outclassed and situational but it has redeeming qualities like a lack of a rock weakness and wilo-wisp over zapdos that make this thing a decent pick on the levels of the fat shit in B.

Every other topic point is either over-stated at this point or pointless, zapdos really has no right to rise and qwilfish is irrelevant.

Operation fixing the lower tiers:

Staraptor C- to C

Look at C-, look at staraptor. This was ranked in C- simply because it was UR before, but now that that's ranked and has been sitting there for a while it's definitely time to rise this monster. It has very little defensive counterplay, most things that want to come in on a brave bird can get smacked by d edge after rocks, and unlike everything else in c- it has a legitimate common nieche: a powerful scarfer with uturn

Uxie and Creaselia to c-
Let’s face it, trick room is dead. That alone is reason to drop these Pokémon, but their general passivity and weakness to being set up on easily as well as being extremely linear and weak to extremely common Pokémon such as ash greninja, bulu, koko, etc. trick room, as said above, is quite useless and obsolete in serious play and if we’re dropping things like volc for seeing little usage, we should drop the staple Pokémon of what may very well be the worst play style in the meta game.

 

[A]

Disagree here.

I tend to think that Zyg's the best mon in A+, being bulky and strong enough to clean out weakened teams after a couple turns of setup and unpredictable enough to "pick its checks" without being bad like Volcarona (who FINALLY got moved down after months of people bandwagoning on about how it's A+ material in spite of the evidence (sorry, tangent, needed to gloat about how I was right)). But I disagree that it should move to S-, or moreover that S- is even a useful concept in a meta like we have today.

If anything I'd like to make that argument: that "S-" really doesn't make sense, that Heatran's good but not any "better" per se than Clefable or Kartana or Tapu Koko. Zygarde's good, but I don't think it's markedly better than Ash-Gren, it just does different things. And almost everything in A+ has been nommed at some point to go to "S-" which was a designation made up for Toxapex when it was having a swell in popularity, similar to what we're seeing now with Gastrodon and Clefable or a month ago when every game was KokoLucha hell. So yeah, Zygarde's good right now but it'll go back to being just plain good again when the meta readjusts to its current dominance.

(hi i'm here to support mellowyellowhd 's nomination)

The thing is though, Zygarde is definitely S- material alongside Heatran, arguably on par with the level of danger it poses to most teams. VR is also meant to reflect current viability, and trying to predict what the meta will be isn't really the job of the Viability Rankings, nor should be a proper basis on how we go about ranking mons. Pre-emptive rises and drops have always been iffy in the first place. At the moment Zyg's absurd variety when it comes to sets, undeniable splashability (similar to Heatran in this regard, it also possesses good defensive qualities), and ability to exploit the current popular metagame trends are qualities that resemble a S- rank Pokemon.

Surely a Pokemon that can even dismantle its hardest counters (Choice Band, Dragonium Z, Groundium Z, Steelium Z, DD+Coil, SubToxic, SubDD, WCAR, WP, etc) and punish you for making correct plays (Using Hidden Power [Ice] on Landorus-T vs it, or a Clefable Moonblast with Weakness Policy), as well as being legitimately more threatening than everything else in A+ is noteworthy for a rise. Kartana and Heatran possess similar qualities, having a myriad of options to use and always have the ability to input great pressure onto your opponent with limited defensive counterplay (it exists; but they can also just bust through said counterplay.)

And with this variety in place, it's very much arguable that Zygarde can adapt to any metagame situation it's in and perform extremely well. Tangrowth on the rise once more? Dragonium Z might pop up yet again. It's things like these which separate it from the lot of A+, don't get me wrong those Pokemon are indeed notable, but they aren't as threatening as Zygarde with its flexibility (its biggest selling point) and power. The metagame may adapt to Zygarde, but Zygarde will always find a way to adapt and be a top threat in every iteration, barring extreme circumstances.

(Now a strawman here would be "but A ur trying to predict metagame changes hehe xd", not exactly. I'm stating a proven point that Zygarde has time and again maintained its relatively high usage and relevance over the entire time SM OU has existed. Similar to Landorus-T and Heatran, the meta may change, but they will continue to be influential threats.)

In conclusion, Zyg is by definition an S- ranked offensive threat with its ease of access and unpredictable variety, and is often considered a high priority threat when it comes to teambuilding, while still possessing great defensive utility to boot as a nice bonus.

 

[Srn]

Disagree here.
Last, Blace should be a C rank, it has a niche it's just bad. I feel like the move to UR is mostly a meme/hate train move that doesn't actually represent the fact that it gets used sometimes and isn't actual garbage. Compare and contrast it to M-Aero, M-Alt, Avalugg, Scolipdede, M-Shark or Azelf, all of whom I've seen approximately none of EVER in an OU match.

bitch hold on
A articulated my thoughts on zygarde and I agree with the rest of what you had to say but Mega Aerodactyl is in no way garbage, and while it has not seen much usage it is perfectly viable in OU.

I can really agree with kingdra drop, prevalent walls like toxapex kind of invalidate it in favor of rain sweepers that can threaten it, like mega swampert.
But I fully disagree with Mega Aero to UR.

Mega Aero is a good fast attacker that can revenge kill some stuff and overall fits many nice niches that no other mon can fill in the tier. It can use eq to kill popular mons like koko and heatran after rocks, it can 1v1 most lando-t with ice fang (offensive variants die after rocks even to -1 ice fang), can revenge kill SD/band kartana with fire fang, and check mega pinsir+volc with stone edge at full health, as well as revenge kill some dd mons like dragonite, adamant zygarde, and gyarados (lots of chip if mega) at +1.
If there's any other pokemon that can do all of this without being burdened by scarf in the tier, it'd be ok to unrank aero, but as it stands, it is still an adequate revenge killer and check to many relevant mons that can comfortably fit onto offensive teams.

relevant calcs

-1 252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 276-328 (86.5 - 102.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kartana: 304-360 (117.3 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Aerodactyl-Mega Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Tough Claws Aerodactyl-Mega Ice Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Zygarde: 324-384 (90.5 - 107.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Inferno Overdrive (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Aerodactyl-Mega: 243-286 (80.7 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

While I do think that the only real viable set is 4 attacks with Stone Edge, Fire Fang, Ice Fang, and Earthquake, aero has a lot of other options like roost, taunt, stealth rock, pursuit, aerial ace, aqua tail, defog etc and can be customized according to team. I personally think Another coverage move like fire fang/eq/ice fang is better than aerial ace bc ace is really only hitting keldeo and venu where as eq/fire fang/ice fang have much more important targets, like tapu koko, heatran, and magnezone for eq and ferrothorn, celesteela, scizor-mega for fire fang and lando-t, zygarde, and lando-t for ice fang.

Ultimately it's still a very viable pokemon that has just enough power and just enough bulk to still warrant a teamslot in the meta imo. Keep maero ranked in C- pls.

I've already talked about maero at some length but I can add that wing attack > fire fang is viable if you have a scarf zone on the team.
Ultimately maero is a perfectly competent fast attacker that can really threaten offensive archetypes. While it does struggle against popular mons like gastro and clefable that are gaining traction, it is equally excellent against mons like Torn-t that are also climbing in usage, and its job was never to break through fat shit anyway.

I have a few replays this time though:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746417949 - i lied aero can "break" fat with some help
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746410745 - i get crit but good example of maero outspeeding and 2hko'ing every mon in a cardboard cutout offense team.

more replays but mostly subsd kart not maero lol

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746388675
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746384858
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746036971
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746029824
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-735928321

so yeah no disrespect on goattee bird keep maero C/C-

 

[Nuked]

Does Mega Garchomp really have a place in this meta anymore? Garchomp already sucks and it was placed in C when Garchomp was actually good early in the SM meta and it's kind of just stayed there for a year. Looking at it now, I can't see why you would:

1. use your mega slot on an already mediocre Pokemon, and
2. use it as a wallbreaker when Landorus-T / Kartana are just 100% better in most situations, and
3. use it when it's walled by Clefable (which has risen a LOT in usage since Mega Garchomp was actually usable)
4. Use it over Zygarde as a setup sweeper, which has a better Ground STAB, priority, and a better setup move in Dragon Dance.

I guess that Mega Chomp could be a decent stallbreaker, but it's just not needed in this meta when you already have a lot of capable stallbreakers, like Hoopa-U, Mega Medicham, and Band Tyranitar, that are more viable than it. I'll also bring up the fact that it's gotten absolutely 0 tournament usage for god knows how long, while at least Mega Camerupt and Mega Gallade have gotten some sliver of usage anywhere relevant in the past 6 months. I don't really know where it should go, my heart tells me unranked but I could see it going to C- either way, if it has that small of a niche.

 

[Srn]

Does Mega Garchomp really have a place in this meta anymore? Garchomp already sucks and it was placed in C when Garchomp was actually good early in the SM meta and it's kind of just stayed there for a year. Looking at it now, I can't see why you would:

1. use your mega slot on an already mediocre Pokemon, and
2. use it as a wallbreaker when Landorus-T / Kartana are just 100% better in most situations, and
3. use it when it's walled by Clefable (which has risen a LOT in usage since Mega Garchomp was actually usable)
4. Use it over Zygarde as a setup sweeper, which has a better Ground STAB, priority, and a better setup move in Dragon Dance.

I guess that Mega Chomp could be a decent stallbreaker, but it's just not needed in this meta when you already have a lot of capable stallbreakers, like Hoopa-U, Mega Medicham, and Band Tyranitar, that are more viable than it. I'll also bring up the fact that it's gotten absolutely 0 tournament usage for god knows how long, while at least Mega Camerupt and Mega Gallade have gotten some sliver of usage anywhere relevant in the past 6 months. I don't really know where it should go, my heart tells me unranked but I could see it going to C- either way, if it has that small of a niche.

+2 252+ Atk Garchomp-Mega Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 385-454 (97.7 - 115.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
outside of sand btw

252+ Atk Choice Band Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Anyway 1) the mega slot doesn't mean as much anyway, thats the only reason pokemon like mega latios are a thing. Its fine to run a mega over an already usable pokemon for shits and giggles now.
And what exactly is "on an already mediocre pokemon" supposed to mean? Alakazam is a mediocre pokemon, and there's nothing wrong with using a mega slot on it to make it good, is there?
2) Lando-t and Kartana are better in most situations, definitely, but mega garchomp does come with some perks like being a solid check to heatran and not needing to worry about z-fly torn-t/clef/gastro cores where as every other wallbreaker you listed does.
3) see above
4) zygarde gives it plenty of competition, but from a pure wallbreaking standpoint, you would have to resort to steelium z or weakness policy to break through clefable, and your Z-crystal is WAY more important than your mega slot.

In any case, if your team wants to run some other miscellaneous ttar set like scarf/chople rocks or something but you still want a wallbreaker that checks tran, I think Mega garchomp is a totally fair and viable choice. I think where mega garchomp shines is when you consider that it can more or less do the same thing as z-move SD garchomp without wasting the z-move and uses the less valuable mega slot instead. I'd be fine with a C- drop but dont UR.

i'll try to edit with replays later

 

[100 Hoes Kaido]

This is in no way shape or form a post that supports a Mega Garchomp rise but it acts differently than normal Garchomp and has things that makes it different than the other 'mons mentioned too.
It can run a QuakeEdge coverage with Sub, or another move like say Fire Fang over Sub in order to quickly hit Scizor and Ferro or Skarmory (beware of Counter, in this case though). Stone Edge, boosted by sand is actually, when it doesn't miss, better than Dragon Claw, since it gives it a way to ohko Bulu at +2 under sand.
Earthquake under sand allows it to actually 2hko Unaware Clefable, so in a 1v1 under sand, Clefable cannot win against MChomp, it also has the ability to 2hko Quagsire, making MChomp an effective sabstall breaker, unlike Zygarde, or regular Garchomp (Kartana also struggles with Counter Skarmory, since it lacks sub, Landorus needs alot of mindgames, and has problems with Quagsire if CC or Skarmory if S4), going even further, you may opt for an Adamant nature if you don't care about outspeeding Jolly Landorus, or Adamant MMedicham you get some neat stuff such as 100% ohkoing Alomomola at +2, 100% ohkoing Rotom-Wash and Gliscor after Stealth Rocks at +2, and a chance at ohkoing asvest Tangrowth at +2 after SR (It will still die by the second sandstorm chip damage though).
While the Mega Slot isn't as important as back in ORAS it's still an important factor that holds him back, just like it needs a very specialized type of support, with 'mons that share some of its weaknessess, and possibly Smooth Rock in order to have more Sand turns, which are very helpful when you fight defensive inclined teams, but then again, most of the 'mons in C Rank, hold a very particular niche which need a great deal of support, just like Mega Garchomp.
Edit: Since I know that words without replays aren't that useful, I started up the ladder and find some matches using an old Sandstorm semistall who was actually quite popular months ago (can't remember the creator, but the original had Chainchomp, which I changed to Adamant SD for a better showcase), here's a good battle showing MChomp's abilities:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-746973265

Keep in mind that turn 23 miss was important, since MGarchomp was adamant Gastrodon was in Stone Edge ohko range, other than that, the battle goes around for 60 (unfort. the one turn sleep stopped Garchomp at killing another 'mon, but the battle was as good as won at that point, with twave Clefable dead, Kyub asleep, Kartana unable to outspeed hwave Tornt and Gastrodon as a potential fodder against Spore Amoonguss ) turns until I'm able to set up a sub with garchomp and finish the match, thanks also to Sand Force, which gave Chomp the ability to 2hko Clefable in the endgame.

 

[Salemjuggernaut]

Scolipede C- > C/C+
I already said this twice. It’s an under appreciated threat that can be an effective sweeper. Players are mostly prepared for Hawlucha with mons like Clefable, and Zapdos to counter it out. But Lucha beats both (except for Defensive Zapdos) with Poison Jab. Pex is declining and Clefable is on the rise so Poison Jab is more fitting rn but Earthquake can be used. Plus it OHKOs Tornadus after rocks

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 271-319 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don’t want to go over the calcs vs Clefable cause it’s obvious what will happen. Now I don’t want to make all my posts into a Scolipede parade so here’s several noms from me.

Nihilego C- > C
Now I know this thing already dropped but the meta is more beneficial towards it. Toxapex’s Reign Of Terror is slowly vanishing and the likes of Clefable and Tornadus increasing in usage is a big deal for Nihilego. Being able to set up rocks vs almost every viable defogger is a nice niche to have. It also doesn’t have to worry about Pex absorbing Toxic Spikes anymore. I believe it should go back to C rank for those reasons.

Alolan Ninetales/Cresselia & Uxie/Araquanid/Shuckle
C+/C > C-
Trick Room, Veil, Webs. What do they all have in common? They are mostly irrelevant in the meta and take a lot of support to execute these playstyles correctly. All five of these mons should drop to C- since their roles are too obscure to be ranked this high in the meta. Veil and Webs get bombarded by our common defoggers and Trick Room requires an entire turn to set up. Bottom line, drop them down.

Crawdaunt > C-
Speaking of Trick Room, Crawdaunt is shredded by the sheer decline of Trick Room. The rise of Clefable and the ever so growing KokoLucha cores is too much for it to handle. If it didn’t have to face competition from Mega-Swampert, Hawlucha, or Qwilfish as rain sweepers than it would’ve definitely deserved to be were it’s at. But right now, it’s plain mediocre.

Manaphy C+ > C
Manaphy was one of the biggest victims to the Gen 7 power creep. Even though Tail Glow + 100 Sp.A is still a deadly combo, it’s base 100 Speed can’t hold it together anymore. The popularity of KokoLucha, Zapdos, and AV Bulu/Amoonguss, as well as Gastrodon makes me wonder why is this ranked this high. It’s a waste of a Z-slot and one mom that tried to fill a niche in playstyles like Webs, Bird Spam, and Veil all failed to stay relevant in the meta. And so did Manaphy.

Mega-Charizard Y C+ > B-
This is an example of a mon that was overhated. Completely walled by Toxapex, weak to rocks, and outclassed by Blacephalon were the main issues for it. But guess what happened? Toxapex (again) is on a bit of a decline, defoggers are more common, and Blacephalon is considered awful. I really think this thing could potentially rise up in the future. Nothing besides Pex and the Mega-Lati twins can swap into it and can swap into a good number of mons like Defensive Lando, Non-Twave Clefable, Non-Toxic Heatran, Mega-Scizor, etc.

Thundurus-I C+ > B-
Thundurus is certainly underrated imo and has a few unique but helpful traits to set it apart from Koko and Zapdos. Instead of discussing it’s offensive toolkit, why not it’s supportive tool kit. Prankster Defog means it is near guaranteed to get rocks off the field giving it an advantage over Zapdos. It has other utility moves to use in conjunction with Prankster like Taunt, Substitute, Toxic, Twave (Because Hawlucha), and Knock Off even though it’s not affected by Prankster. Another underrated set is the mixed Defiant set to punish defoggers such as Tornadus, Gliscor, or even Zapdos. It can not only clear hazards away, but also pressure the use of Defog and Intimidate as well. Can I also mention it’s speed tier let’s it outpace Kartana, Mega-Medicham, and Mega-Pinsir making it a better check to those three. Overall, it’s an underrated mon with utility and speed that needs more representation.

Gastrodon B+ > A-
So Gastrodon rose to B+. But why stop there? It’s arguably one of the best Koko counters we have in the everlasting battle to find the best Koko counter. It does more than counter Koko ofc. It’s well known as a stop to Lando, Greninja, and Magearna. But the main reason for it to rise besides the SPL success it has had is how many cores it can create with the defensive top tiers. Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Landorus, Toxapex, Amoonguss, I can go on. Oh and speaking of Koko

Tapu Koko A+ > S-
I’m still surprised it hasn’t rose to the top yet. Ever since the beginning of the SuMo meta, it has found a way to get even more versatile and stronger. It has forced players to use non-4x weak to ice ground types to counter it out. It had nearly shifted the meta all by its self. It single handedly made Hawlucha and even rain viable and amazing, and has evolved to adapt to the changes in the meta from the Specs Set to the Shuca Set, it is absolutely splashable and a meta defining threat that will probably stay top tier for years to come.

 

[Ropalme1914]

Could I ask why Gengar was not voted on the slate? It did have a good amount of discussion and support for it to rise (or even drop on some cases), and it also was not present on the last vote slate despite having some noms at that time too.
To not make this a one liner, I agree with Mega Garchomp to C-, but not UR. It still has some niche between being stronger than Zygarde on a raw power scale and with Swords Dance to break things better than it, notably letting it deal with Magic Guard Clefable, Mega Scizor, Bulu (somewhat), Tangrowth and some others. It's not a good mon by any means and most of the time, it is outclassed, but it isn't useless, and it does appreciates some of the recent changes like KyuB dropping and Hippowdon rising.

 

[naturalstupidity]

Nihilego C- > C
Now I know this thing already dropped but the meta is more beneficial towards it. Toxapex’s Reign Of Terror is slowly vanishing and the likes of Clefable and Tornadus increasing in usage is a big deal for Nihilego. Being able to set up rocks vs almost every viable defogger is a nice niche to have. It also doesn’t have to worry about Pex absorbing Toxic Spikes anymore. I believe it should go back to C rank for those reasons.

I disagree with this and in fact question whether or not it even deserves to be ranked. Yeah, Clefable and Torn rising are points in its favor, but even more shifts are hurting it. Lando-T + Steel (Magearna, Celesteela, Heatran, Ferro, etc) is increasingly becoming the backbone of bulky offenses and balances, the most common playstyle right now. Depending on its set, Nihilego is hard walled by one half of that core and forced out by both. Mega Lati@s are rising in usage and both win handily, with Latias setting up all over it and Latios just blowing it back with an EQ. Gastrodon and Gliscor are picking up too and laugh in its face. Toxapex still is around and invalidates its existence completely. Honestly, Nihilego might actually hurt a team more than helping it, due to being a huge momentum sink from being forced out by everything and giving free turns to some of the biggest threats in the tier (Magearna, Zygarde, Kartana, etc.) I personally think it should be unranked, but since stuff like Avalugg is ranked I think it's fine being kept in C-.