Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Taptricity]

Hello! This is my first post on the forums so if I get something wrong correct me! So this is my nomination!
I nominate Pelliper to A-

Rain teams while they can seem to be pretty one dimensional, they can be effective and Pelipper carries the team composition as a whole. Drizzle support is the core of rain compositions and that amount of support that Pelipper offers to make a whole composition function deems it worthy of a rise imo. It also doesn't drain momentum since it can U-turn out after making it rain or can stay in and either go for the 100% accurate hurricane or the rain boosted scald. It's amazing with Tapu Koko which they end up forming a volt turn combo along with them consistently switching in on their checks with Tapu Koko apprieciating a terrain boosted, 100% accurate Thunder. Pelipper is just the backbone of it all and that rain support warrants a rise. Here are some other nominations that I would like to put my opinion in on:

Clefable from A+ to S-= Agreed

As always, Clefable keeps coming out on top. It's just so splashable and fits on many compositions. On BO it can be a great sr setter that isn't affected by any hazards on the switch barring webs (which aren't good rn) and has some surprising survivability. And then on stall/semistall, it gives nice wish support while forming an unaware core with Quagsire. Fairies just being an omnipresent typing shows how welcome Clefable is.

Zygarde from A+ to S-= Agreed

Zygarde is just way too threatening right now. If you don't have a consistent check to the hell worm then prepare for some casualties! It can give your team massive troubles if it gets a free turn of set up. Something that I haven't seen people talking about with Zygarde is that it can use Z-Iron Tail to lure in fairy types and then slaughter them with a Corkscrew Crash. A rise for the hell worm is well deserved.

Also it's great that I can meat all of you! How has your week been as well Finch?

 

[naturalstupidity]

Everyone's talking about S-/A+ right now, but I'm going to focus this post on the rank below it. I fully support the earlier nominations of Gliscor and Mega Lati@s to A for the reasons people have already brought up, but if those changes are implemented A rank begins to look rather bloated. There'd be 14 mons in A rank alone, which does not feel like an accurate representation of how the metagame stands right now. With that in mind as well as metagame trends, there's a few current A rank mons that I feel deserve to fall to A-.

Celesteela A -> A-

This is the one I'm most on the fence about because Celesteela is one of my favorite Pokemon to use, and it is fair to say that certain metagame trends have definitely helped it out. The rise of Gastrodon and WishClef is great for Steela because those two make incredible teammates for it and together make a solid balance core that checks a great deal of the meta. However, the reason I'm nomming this to A- is because of Heatran. Heatran is notorious for being very punishing with any free turns you give it, and Celesteela gives Heatran a free invitation to fire off an almost risk-free Magma Storm, set Rocks, or make an aggressive play with a Z-move. Since we're in a 40% Heatran use meta and Heatran so easily takes advantage of Celesteela, I feel it doesn't perform nearly as well as it used to and should drop to A-.

M-Medicham A -> A-

Meanwhile, there's not a single recent metagame trend that has helped out Medicham. For starters, bulky pivot Tornadus-T is rising and gives offenses a soft switch-in to HJK. The Mega Latis have cemented themselves as staple picks on many teams, and they both check Medicham and give it serious competition for the Mega slot. Furthermore - and this is the change that has hurt Medicham the most - Clefable has established itself again as the queen of balance. Clefable's omnipresence really hurts Medicham's viability, as balance teams almost by default now have one of the most reliable answers to it in the game. It's still a menace that's incredibly hard to switch into, but so are Hoopa, Kyub, M-Mawile, and M-Pinsir. I feel that a drop to A- accurately reflects Medicham's falling viability, the increasing competition of the Mega slot, and the status of Scizor and the Latis as the best, most splashable Megas in the tier.

Magnezone A -> A-

Magnezone has always felt out of place to me in A anyway. Its purpose is clearly to support mons like Pinsir and Kyub by eliminating the Steels that counter them, but the majority of Pokemon that Magnezone supports are currently below it in the viability rankings. Furthermore, the niche of Steel trapping is less important. Most teams' Steel of choice is Heatran, who for obvious reasons beats Magnezone but not Alolem. True, Magnezone does have some other utility beyond that niche, but not much. Scarf can revenge kill SD Kartana, and Sub+Z sets are tolerable wallbreakers. But those characteristics alone would hardly make it break C+, so we have to ask whether its niche of trapping Steels is worth putting in A, above many of the mons it's supporting and alongside metagame staples like Hawlucha and Tapu Bulu. In general, and especially in the current Heatran metagame, I feel the answer to that is a definite no.

 

[Srn]

Magnezone A -> A-

Magnezone has always felt out of place to me in A anyway. Its purpose is clearly to support mons like Pinsir and Kyub by eliminating the Steels that counter them, but the majority of Pokemon that Magnezone supports are currently below it in the viability rankings. Furthermore, the niche of Steel trapping is less important. Most teams' Steel of choice is Heatran, who for obvious reasons beats Magnezone but not Alolem. True, Magnezone does have some other utility beyond that niche, but not much. Scarf can revenge kill SD Kartana, and Sub+Z sets are tolerable wallbreakers. But those characteristics alone would hardly make it break C+, so we have to ask whether its niche of trapping Steels is worth putting in A, above many of the mons it's supporting and alongside metagame staples like Hawlucha and Tapu Bulu. In general, and especially in the current Heatran metagame, I feel the answer to that is a definite no.

Is it just me or does this make no sense?

A) Magnezone supports mons like pinsir and kyu-b by beating steels
B) But the steel type is usually heatran
C) Therefore magnezone is bad because it cannot support mons like pinsir and kyu-b???

I think it's pretty clear that mons like pinsir, kartana, and kyu-b will fuck up non-scarf tran any day of the week, and that the mons that zone is actually responsible for getting rid of (celesteela, ferrothorn) will be crucial in a matchup where pinsir/kart/etc is on the other side.

Basically, I think that you're not thinking of the right partners that typically pair up with magnezone; you usually see it with shit like ash gren, kyu-b, pinsir, kartana, mega aerodactyl, gyarados, and Mega latios to get rid of Ferrothorn, skarmory, celesteela, and mega scizor for those pokemon. And you know what all of magnezone's partners happen to do? Beat heatran...

If you want to drop zone, it can't be on the basis that heatran's popularity is rising, and due to this somehow mag can't do its job or something. It's still doing totally fine as far as I can tell.

 

[Ohmboy Tesla]

Is it just me or does this make no sense?

A) Magnezone supports mons like pinsir and kyu-b by beating steels
B) But the steel type is usually heatran
C) Therefore magnezone is bad because it cannot support mons like pinsir and kyu-b???

I think it's pretty clear that mons like pinsir, kartana, and kyu-b will fuck up non-scarf tran any day of the week, and that the mons that zone is actually responsible for getting rid of (celesteela, ferrothorn) will be crucial in a matchup where pinsir/kart/etc is on the other side.

Basically, I think that you're not thinking of the right partners that typically pair up with magnezone; you usually see it with shit like ash gren, kyu-b, pinsir, kartana, mega aerodactyl, gyarados, and Mega latios to get rid of Ferrothorn, skarmory, celesteela, and mega scizor for those pokemon. And you know what all of magnezone's partners happen to do? Beat heatran...

If you want to drop zone, it can't be on the basis that heatran's popularity is rising, and due to this somehow mag can't do its job or something. It's still doing totally fine as far as I can tell.

I pretty much agree with everything you said, but seeing how M-lati, Kyurem and Pinsir are all A- at the moment, a drop for Magnezone to the same rank as its greatest beneficiaries might still be justified.

 

[Nuked]

Furthermore - and this is the change that has hurt Medicham the most - Clefable has established itself again as the queen of balance. Clefable's omnipresence really hurts Medicham's viability, as balance teams almost by default now have one of the most reliable answers to it in the game.

252+ Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 210-247 (53.2 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This shit does not wall Medicham at all, and if Medi is Jolly then the roll is about 60/40 to kill if you take into account Zen Headbutt flinches. If Clef switches into High Jump Kick, it does live 2, but then Clef is forced to recover and you get to go into something that can deal with Clef at that point. If anything, Clef rising in popularity is a plus for Medicham, because it's one of the few physical wallbreakers that can 2HKO Clef without boosting. Plus if you're jolly you can totally stay in and risk the 50/50 with Zen Headbutt because Moonblast usually doesn't OHKO Medicham.

Second, going helmet Tornadus on HJK is risky because Ice Punch is a 50/50 to KO and Zen Headbutt also does a metric fuckton, and it's not that hard to predict a Torn switch either, considering they'll want to get the Helmet chip on Fake Out.

In the end dropping Medicham is going to be up to the VR council but I think your clefable point is really weak seeing as one of the main moves Medicham runs flat out 2HKOs, and if you're jolly you'll eventually just get the 50/50 roll and kill it. I basically just think that clefable rising isn't the main thing against medicham, if anything it's the mega competition.

 

[Taptricity]

If I'm going to be honest here, I really don't mind that A is inflated. It just shows that there are plenty of good picks that are flawed to the point that they aren't as meta defining as A+. I would be more worried if a subrank in like C was inflated. However I wouldn't if Magneozne did drop to A- to represent that support it offers to the mons in that rank.

Now so that this post just isn't just one paragraph, I'm still going to push my Pelipper nomination. It making a team composition viable shows the support it offers and it should rise because of it. You can scroll up to see my original post on it.

 

[volx757]

If I'm going to be honest here, I really don't mind that A is inflated. It just shows that there are plenty of good picks that are flawed to the point that they aren't as meta defining as A+. I would be more worried if a subrank in like C was inflated. However I wouldn't if Magneozne did drop to A- to represent that support it offers to the mons in that rank.

Now so that this post just isn't just one paragraph, I'm still going to push my Pelipper nomination. It making a team composition viable shows the support it offers and it should rise because of it. You can scroll up to see my original post on it.

I'm going to disagree with pelliper rise, for the same reason you support a magnezone drop. The mon should be in the same rank as the mons it supports, it doesn't make sense to rank Pelliper the support mon higher than Swampert the threat that it enables. Pelliper and swampert have been moving around on the VR together all gen because each is kinda shit without the other. I think you're better off making a nom for rain to move up (if you believe the playstyle's viability is actually improved).

 

[Taptricity]

I'm going to disagree with pelliper rise, for the same reason you support a magnezone drop. The mon should be in the same rank as the mons it supports, it doesn't make sense to rank Pelliper the support mon higher than Swampert the threat that it enables. Pelliper and swampert have been moving around on the VR together all gen because each is kinda shit without the other. I think you're better off making a nom for rain to move up (if you believe the playstyle's viability is actually improved).

Good point. I didn't want to discuss Swampert since I saw it on the banlist. I didn't see the posts about it but I'm assuming that it's about regular pert and not its mega. I'm an idiot lol.

But anyway, Mega Medi is fine where it's at. Mega Latios can't safely switch into it in fear of Ice Punch and Mega Latias still gets 2HKOed by Ice Punch so that Mega Medi can switch into something that can finish it off.

252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios-Mega: 272-322 (90.3 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 234-276 (64.2 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

There's also the posts above showing that Mega Medi doesn't care about Clefable and can just Ice Punch Torn-T for the 50/50 chance for the OHKO. Mega Medi is still really threatening and A is a justified rank for the mon.

 

[Finchinator]

Hey, daily reminder from your favorite kind and handsome OU moderator to follow the forum rules when it comes to making nominations and justifying them. Let's not bother discussing Chansey for the time being, too -- thanks!

 

[Gross Sweep]

My last 2 posts in this thread have been overly long posts discussing nominations from UR to some insignificant C- slot, so I figure I might as well mix it up and give my opinions on a few of the more discussed nominations throughout the thread that I find interesting/care about. I probably will not touch on everything, and my arguments may drag on, but hopefully it’s not too boring of a read.

I’m going to disagree with M-Venusaur dropping. I feel that M-Venusaur is one of those mons that often has people hating on it for whatever reason be it: Tyranitar or rain rising in usage crippling Venu’s Synthesis, Toxapex/Amoong rising in usage fighting Venu for a slot since double poison is not great, or some other meta trend like M-Latios rising stopping it from being effective outside of Sludge Bomb Fishing; yet M-Venusaur always finds a way to do something in the meta. Be it helping with Kartana due to HP Fire, being one of the safest switch ins to Gastrodon in the tier since no one is trying to let Toxic spread around, or checking SG Mage which seems to be on the rise again from what I’ve seen. M-Venusaur definitely has some faults, but it always seems to make up for it in some way or another. Keep M-Venu B+ as M-Venu has and will continue to be a solid presence and mega choice until something drastic happens to the meta.

I am going to start off by saying I love Heatran, but I can’t agree with it rising to S. I feel like Landorus-T sets a certain tone in the meta, and if you don’t measure up to it you don’t deserve to rise. That may not be the best policy towards ranking a mon, but it’s the arbitrary one I use. Also I don’t feel like meta shifts have been kind enough for Heatran to merit a rise. M-Latios, Gastrodon, and Gliscor have been on a recent usage rise, so it’s hard for me to sit here saying it should rise with three serviceable switch ins finding their way onto a lot of teams for a variety of reasons (Heatran is not the sole reason those three are good in the current meta). Overall while I think Heatran is a good mon, it’s just no Lando-t, which for me is enough to keep it S -.

I am all aboard the Zygarde train, and support the rise to S-. Between Choice Band, Weakness Policy, and Sub Glare sets Zygarde has a myriad of options making it one of the most menacing threats in the current meta. I feel WP + Iron Tail Zygarde becoming more common has been great for Zygarde’s overall viability as mons that people love using as their Zygarde check such as Clefairy and Scarf Lando-t no longer are completely safe solid switch ins. Screens HO has also helped Zygarde along recently as the extra bulk provided has turned Zygarde into a true fiend pushing it over the wall of A+.

I do not agree with a rise on this one. Pelipper rises and falls with rain, and I honestly don’t see how rain has gotten better recently. If anything rain has gotten a little worse as Gastrodon has been on the rise sucking up those water type moves. While I do feel like Pelipper is a good mon, I just feel like this wasn’t a very good nom, since everything stated about Pelipper was the exact same two months ago. If nothing changes for a mon, it’s not going to move on the VR. It’s a very simple premise.

Not going to lie I am in love with Weavile right now. With mons like M-Latios and Reuniclus popping off in the tier strong trappers are only going to get better. Weavie also having a great speed tier out pacing the likes of Tornadus-Therian is very nice. Also with DD Zygarde being such a good mon currently, Weavile being able to pressure that with Ice Shard is very nice. I have big expectations for this mon moving forward, the meta is really turning in its favor. While M-Scizor is still a huge issue for this mon, I feel like that one horrid match up isn’t a large enough concern to keep Weavile down.

I would agree that Mew’s offensive set is in a pretty good place right now, and probably deserves a small rise. Aside from being a solid fighting resistance being able to check Zygarde and Tran based on coverage is nice in the current meta. I still don’t like how people use it as a ground resist, and just let it U-turned on by Lando opening up a team to a lot of issues. Meaning that as long as people build good teams I’m okay with a Mew rise since it can put in some nice work, but if people continue to oversell Mew when it comes to handling ground types I’m a little hesitant. I simply feel a lot of people use Mew incorrectly, and that's more a bother to me than a knock towards Mew - so I'll support this one.

This is a nomination very similar to Pelipper in my opinion. I honestly can’t think of any recent changes in the meta that make it better or worse. Everyone needs to understand you cannot just list out what a mon has done for the entire generation, and expect a mon to rise or drop. You need to explain some sort of meta shift if you want a mon to rise or drop, and that just hasn’t happened in the case of Magnezone. As long as Pokemon like Ferrothorn and Celesteela exist in this tier annoying mons like M-Pinsir, Gyarados, and M-Zam Magnezone will continue to have a solid viable niche in the tier. Meaning that until something happens like steel types become drastically more or less popular for whatever reason Magnezone really shouldn’t be moving. I understand Heatran is becoming increasingly more common, but there are enough other steels / Heatran switch ins in the tier that Magnezone is not greatly effected based upon what its role is within the tier.

Gastrodon is in my opinion a cycle mon. What that means is every couple of months meta trends will come into enough favor that this mon shoots up in usage and viability. However, without fail the fad of using Gastrodon only seems to last a few weeks, and it eventually falls back to NU/PU. Mons like Z-Solar Beam Heatran and Grass Knot Greninja rising in usage are already indicative of this mons decline. The meta can adapt to Gastrodon once it’s truly acknowledged as a threat, which is the point we’re just starting to get too. I feel like Gastrodon has peaked, and does not merit a rise looking forward. I realize this may be a bit of a futuristic approach, it’s just always the same old story for everyone’s favorite slug. I would hold off on giving this mon anymore consideration for a rise until more WCOP games take place, and we all see if Gastro can finally cement itself in high level play instead of just being a cyclical matchup pick that surprises people for a few weeks as the common teams of the time cannot handle it.

That's all I wanted to address. I didn't touch on a few of the bigger ones such as Clefable and Kartana since I don't like the elimination of S- debate, and couldn't really see a way of discussing those mons in any kind of detail without touching on that argument. For the record I think they're both fine where they are. Anyways, I'll end my post here, hopefully I kept my stuff shorter this time around.

 

[patlop2307]

I’m going to disagree with M-Venusaur dropping. I feel that M-Venusaur is one of those mons that often has people hating on it for whatever reason be it: Tyranitar or rain rising in usage crippling Venu’s Synthesis, Toxapex/Amoong rising in usage fighting Venu for a slot since double poison is not great, or some other meta trend like M-Latios rising stopping it from being effective outside of Sludge Bomb Fishing; yet M-Venusaur always finds a way to do something in the meta. Be it helping with Kartana due to HP Fire, being one of the safest switch ins to Gastrodon in the tier since no one is trying to let Toxic spread around, or checking SG Mage which seems to be on the rise again from what I’ve seen. M-Venusaur definitely has some faults, but it always seems to make up for it in some way or another. Keep M-Venu B+ as M-Venu has and will continue to be a solid presence and mega choice until something drastic happens to the meta.

I would like to add/elaborate on one or two aspect of the use of Mega-Venusaur: It's an extremely flexible Pokémon. It can run Hidden Power [Fire] for Kartana, Hidden Power [Ice] for Zygarde, Earthquake for Magearna, Knock Off for general utility and support of other sweepers on the team, and Leech Seed to better deal with Chansey alongside with its two STABs. That movepool is enough to fit onto nearly any team and show decent results on a constant basis. Also, I would like add that Venusaur isn't necessarily a 100% offensive nor 100% defensvie Pokémon, it is acting as a sponge while being able to hit back realtively hard and is usually one of the last Pokémon I usually add on a team.

 

[lydian]

Mega Latios to A rank
I'm going to support Indigo Plateau's nomination. Mega Latios has gathered a lot of success and usage in recent tours and it just fits on so many playstyles always playing its role consistently. I feel like it much better fits on A rank, being one of the more viable and consistent Pokémon this generation. There isn't really any huge meta trend to justify this move, but I think the use and success it got in SPL and OUPL should be enough to justify its rise.

Zygarde to S- rank
Also going to support this rise, Zygarde is really good and it has like literally a dozen sets and all excellent. It cheese its way past pretty much any check depending on its set, and its bulk gives it so many oportunities to set up. With most teams using Clefable and Landorus-T as their sole Zygarde check also makes the recent Weakness Policy set very menacing and threatening.

Weavile to A- rank
Completely agree with this one, the meta is very much in favor of Weavile with the likes of Mega Latias, Mega Latios, Reuniclus, and Tornadus-T seeing a lot more usage and viability, the same is truth for Weavile. Its also getting some more usage on recent tours, and most of its Fairy-type checks like Clefable and Magearna despite getting knocked off. Really worth a rise in all honesty.

 

[Taptricity]

I agree with the Weavile rise, but we're forgetting the other Ice type.

Mamoswine B---->B+

Ice types are quite dependent on metagame trends and since they've shifted in their favor, I think Mamoswine should rise with Weavile since they are locked together by the heel and when one rises, the other should too. With these two, you are given the query of should I pick the slower mon with more power, or the faster mon with less power? Mamoswine can check almost anything that Sneasal can check while boasting more strength. Mamo can also fix its speed problem by having ice shard to revenge kill a Pokémon at KO range. Mamo does get chipped and isn't something you should continuously bring in on the switch and he can become too reliant of ice shard which can be shut down by Lele so I feel like for now it should be in B+ for now.

 

[Jordy]

I disagree with Mamoswine rising to B+

ce types are quite dependent on metagame trends and since they've shifted in their favor, I think Mamoswine should rise with Weavile since they are locked together by the heel and when one rises, the other should too.

Honestly I don't think comparing Mamoswine to Weavile (or say they're locked together) really works as they do quite different things. Weavile being a notable Pursuit trapper and Knock Off spammer. And Mamoswine using its defensive typing to switch in and start wrecking Pokemon.

With these two, you are given the query of should I pick the slower mon with more power, or the faster mon with less power?

It's literally 10 base Attack so that barely matters(also note that Weavile runs Choice Band, so it's about as strong as Life Orb Mamoswine), and as i mentioned before they do quite different things.

Mamoswine can check almost anything that Sneasal can check while boasting more strength.

Mamoswine can check things, yes, but not the same that Weavile can as Weavile barely holds any defensive utility, except for the fact that they both have Ice Shard which lets both check Zygarde and Landorus-T, which is fair enough. As I mentioned before, Weavile runs Choice Band so it's about as strong as Life Orb Mamoswine.

Furthermore you mention some things that are already known about Mamoswine, so I don't know how that warrants a rise.

All in all, I don't think Mamoswine is due to a rise just because Weavile is due to a rise and that it still does the same it's always done.

e: typo

 

[Persella]

B to B+: I disagree with this rise. While it has a very nice offensive typing, permitting it to touch strongly every Pokémon in OU exept Celesteela and Scizor-Mega, a nice ground typing and some good utility moves, Mamoswine is very slow, too slow. Much offensive teams are simply too fast for it, forcing to use it with hard predicts. Its skill to break defensive teams thanks to Metronome is no longer usable at its full level because most defensive teams are balanceds including Clefable which easily Wish on it and pass it to Celesteela or Venusaur-Mega, which can destroy Mamoswine or heal themself easily.
Compared to Landorus-Therian: it objectively checks less threats, does not have momentum provided by U-Turn, and is slower. The only advantages it has on Landorus-Therian is that it has a stronger Ice type hit, its strong priority move in Ice Shard and its resist to Ice type thanks to its own Ice type + Thick Fat, which permits it to come on Dazzling Gleam-less Tapu Koko.
Compared to Weavile: Weavile is frailer, but is a lot faster, which is very useful because it can break with ease a lot of metagame Pokémon, notably Tornadus-Therian, Latios-Mega, Gliscor, Kartana, etc... It can easily spam Knock Off in this metagame. It globally hits stronger thanks to Choice Band, being a better revenge killer therefore. The only point Mamoswine is above Weavile is that it can hit Magearna, Toxapex and cie. with its Ground typing, but these Pokémon will usually switch facing Mamoswine. Thought Magearna lives one Earthquake if Mamoswine is holding Metrenome, and can deal a lot of damages with Fleur Cannon, and for instance be healed with a Wish or a Healing Wish support.

B+ to A-: I agree with this nomination for the reasons I said above.

A- to A: I agree with this rise. Latios-Mega is arguably the best Mega Pokémon in the current Over Used metagame. It fits very well in a lot of teams, a provide a good wallbreaking and utility, while still checking OU strongest threats, including Heatran, Toxapex, and other Pokémon, from Ferrothorn to Gliscor, depending on what moves it is carrying (HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Scizor-Mega and Celesteela, Ice Beam for Landorus-Therian and Gliscor (it has a net OHKO which Draco Meteor does not have). Pursuit trappers have to be careful because Latios-Mega carries Earthquake which 2HKOs Choice Band Tyranitar after only 1 Stealth Rock chip damages and Draco Meteor OHKOs Weavile. And more, they does not OHKO full health Latios-Mega with Pursuit, so they force 50/50 in the case Latios-Mega is at 100% of its health.

S- to S: I disagree with this nomination. Yes, Heatran is a really good Pokémon, easily suitable in team building, which always makes what he has to do, because every team has at least one Pokémon which does not beat Heatran, on which Heatran can set up rocks, or inflict good damages with its high fire power. Without own recovery, it still heals itself with Leftovers + Protect without a lot of problem thanks to its huge bulk and its wonderful typing, which let him have 11 resistances including 5 double ones and 2 immunities. However, recent rises of Gastrodon, Gliscor and Latios-Mega prevents its stallbreaking power to be really effective. Gastrodon has still to be careful against Z-Move Heatran, because it can hold a Grassium Z which it will use with Solar Beam.
To conclude: Heatran is a very good defensive Pokémon, but its offensive potential is reduced by current metagame Pokémon.

A+ to S-: I disagree with this rise. Clefable is currently a metagame defining Pokémon, but I don't think it should rise to S-, because I think it is very weak to Z-Moves. While it has a lot of bulk and switchs in on a lot of Pokémon, whether defensives or offensives ones like Landorus-Therian, Toxapex, Zygarde, Gastrodon, etc... I think it is easily lured, for instance by Corkscrew Crash Zygarde. It has a very good stallbreaking potential with Calm Mind, avoiding offensive status and Entry Hazards thanks to Magic Guard, but stall isn't the most played archetype since Arena Trap ban unfortunately.

 

[Hydreigonfan01]

B to B+: I disagree with this rise. While it has a very nice offensive typing, permitting it to touch strongly every Pokémon in OU exept Celesteela and Scizor-Mega, a nice ground typing and some good utility moves, Mamoswine is very slow, too slow. Much offensive teams are simply too fast for it, forcing to use it with hard predicts. Its skill to break defensive teams thanks to Metronome is no longer usable at its full level because most defensive teams are balanceds including Clefable which easily Wish on it and pass it to Celesteela or Venusaur-Mega, which can destroy Mamoswine or heal themself easily.
Compared to Landorus-Therian: it objectively checks less threats, does not have momentum provided by U-Turn, and is slower. The only advantages it has on Landorus-Therian is that it has a stronger Ice type hit, its strong priority move in Ice Shard and its resist to Ice type thanks to its own Ice type + Thick Fat, which permits it to come on Dazzling Gleam-less Tapu Koko.
Compared to Weavile: Weavile is frailer, but is a lot faster, which is very useful because it can break with ease a lot of metagame Pokémon, notably Tornadus-Therian, Latios-Mega, Gliscor, Kartana, etc... It can easily spam Knock Off in this metagame. It globally hits stronger thanks to Choice Band, being a better revenge killer therefore. The only point Mamoswine is above Weavile is that it can hit Magearna, Toxapex and cie. with its Ground typing, but these Pokémon will usually switch facing Mamoswine. Thought Magearna lives one Earthquake if Mamoswine is holding Metrenome, and can deal a lot of damages with Fleur Cannon, and for instance be healed with a Wish or a Healing Wish support.

B+ to A-: I agree with this nomination for the reasons I said above.

A- to A: I agree with this rise. Latios-Mega is arguably the best Mega Pokémon in the current Over Used metagame. It fits very well in a lot of teams, a provide a good wallbreaking and utility, while still checking OU strongest threats, including Heatran, Toxapex, and other Pokémon, from Ferrothorn to Gliscor, depending on what moves it is carrying (HP Fire for Ferrothorn, Scizor-Mega and Celesteela, Ice Beam for Landorus-Therian and Gliscor (it has a net OHKO which Draco Meteor does not have). Pursuit trappers have to be careful because Latios-Mega carries Earthquake which 2HKOs Choice Band Tyranitar after only 1 Stealth Rock chip damages and Draco Meteor OHKOs Weavile. And more, they does not OHKO full health Latios-Mega with Pursuit, so they force 50/50 in the case Latios-Mega is at 100% of its health.

S- to S: I disagree with this nomination. Yes, Heatran is a really good Pokémon, easily suitable in team building, which always makes what he has to do, because every team has at least one Pokémon which does not beat Heatran, on which Heatran can set up rocks, or inflict good damages with its high fire power. Without own recovery, it still heals itself with Leftovers + Protect without a lot of problem thanks to its huge bulk and its wonderful typing, which let him have 11 resistances including 5 double ones and 2 immunities. However, recent rises of Gastrodon, Gliscor and Latios-Mega prevents its stallbreaking power to be really effective. Gastrodon has still to be careful against Z-Move Heatran, because it can hold a Grassium Z which it will use with Solar Beam.
To conclude: Heatran is a very good defensive Pokémon, but its offensive potential is reduced by current metagame Pokémon.

A+ to S-: I disagree with this rise. Clefable is crrently a metagame defining Pokémon, but I don't think it should rise to S-, because I think it is very weak to Z-Moves. While it has a lot of bulk and switchs in on a lot of Pokémon, whether defensives or offensives ones like Landorus-Therian, Toxapex, Zygarde, Gastrodon, etc... I think it is easily lured, for instance by Corkscrew Crash Zygarde. It has a very good stallbreaking potential with Calm Mind, avoiding offensive status and Entry Hazards thanks to Magic Guard, but stall isn't the most played archetype since Arena Trap ban unfortunately.

While I agree for Mamoswine to stay for most of the reasons you and Jordy said, I don't like comparing a Ground type S rank mon (Landorus-Therian) to a B rank ground type that does different things. Mamoswine is meant to be a wallbreaker, take a hit and do a lot of damage with an Icicle Crash or an Earthquake. Landorus-Therian can be a tank, pull a defensive set or be choice scarf and be a fast sweeper. It's obvious which one is better with all the versatility. Pick a ground type in a similar tier might be a bit easier. Like Garchomp or Excadrill for example.

 

[Dreadfury]

Clefable is crrently a metagame defining Pokémon, but I don't think it should rise to S-, because I think it is very weak to Z-Moves.

A lot of things are weak to Z-moves. They're one-time, prediction-reliant nukes. Clefable shouldn't be an exception: in fact, the rise in usage of things such as Corkscrew Crash Zygarde to beat it and Bulu should be a testament to how influential Clefable is in this current metagame, and how worthy it is of being in an S-rank. Shuca Koko is one of the best Koko sets because Lando-T and Zygarde are everywhere in the tier, and its purpose is to quite literally lure them. Yet the power that particular lure set provides doesn't take away from the fact that it's luring and beating two of some of the best things in the tier in the head-to-head. Likewise, things running lure sets to beat Clefable is a testament not to how exploitable Clefable is, but to how necessary running something to beat Clefable really is.

In addition, Clefable may be great on Stall, but it's by no means exclusive to stall insert obligatory Chansey Offense joke here since it still happens to have that coveted niche of a fat Stealth Rock user with reliable recovery. It can find its way onto more offensively-oriented teams just because it is so good at getting its hazards up, and once its counters, like Heatran, are eliminated it is still a proven, tried-and-true win condition.

I just don't feel like being weak to Z-moves is a good reason for it to not rise to S-. A lot of things are weak to Z-moves. That's literally the point of Z-moves. 95% of the time, they exist because they can turn 2HKOs into OHKOs, and 3HKOs into solid 2HKOs. And Clefable getting beaten by Iron Tail variants of Zygarde doesn't really make up for the fact that it can do extraordinarily well against literally any other Zygarde variant.

 

[Empress Mobile]

Gastrodon is in my opinion a cycle mon. What that means is every couple of months meta trends will come into enough favor that this mon shoots up in usage and viability. However, without fail the fad of using Gastrodon only seems to last a few weeks, and it eventually falls back to NU/PU. Mons like Z-Solar Beam Heatran and Grass Knot Greninja rising in usage are already indicative of this mons decline. The meta can adapt to Gastrodon once it’s truly acknowledged as a threat, which is the point we’re just starting to get too. I feel like Gastrodon has peaked, and does not merit a rise looking forward. I realize this may be a bit of a futuristic approach, it’s just always the same old story for everyone’s favorite slug. I would hold off on giving this mon anymore consideration for a rise until more WCOP games take place, and we all see if Gastro can finally cement itself in high level play instead of just being a cyclical matchup pick that surprises people for a few weeks as the common teams of the time cannot handle it.

I agree that it remains to be seen whether Gastrodon has any long-term influence on the metagame, but I personally think Grass Knot Greninja and Bloom Doom Heatran are reasons for it to rise. Both are subpar coverage choices that can severely worsen Greninja & Heatran's matchups against a lot of top tier threats. If Gastrodon's presence can continue to force players to run these sets, I would only see this as a reason to support a rise.

 

[Ske]

I agree that it remains to be seen whether Gastrodon has any long-term influence on the metagame, but I personally think Grass Knot Greninja and Bloom Doom Heatran are reasons for it to rise. Both are subpar coverage choices that can severely worsen Greninja & Heatran's matchups against a lot of top tier threats. If Gastrodon's presence can continue to force players to run these sets, I would only see this as a reason to support a rise.

I agree on your reasonings with maybe Grass Knot Greninja and even the unmentioned Z-Grass Knot koko as i think that set is really bad, but Grassium-Z Heatran has always been a very solid set with grassy terrain support and was used even before the gastro hype, Gastrodon rising in usage just gave players another reason to use it rather than "force" players to run it.

Here Are Some More Nominations

Gliscor to A->A

This mon is awsome. SD Facade/Ice Fang Pressures so many common balance builds and destroy unprepared teams. It even is a little centralizing having Mega Latios run Ice Beam and the rise of Pokemon such as Ice Beam Mega Slowbro, Hp Ice Scarf Defensive Landorus & Weavile. Gliscor is really really good ATM & better than Pokemon in A- Such as Kyurem & Chansey.

Alakazam-Mega B+ > A-

Mega Alakazam is really solid ATM. Recover Mega Alakazam can switch into the ever so popular Heatran due to Trace and pressure alot of teams. Its speed tier is amazing outspeeding the likes of Tapu Koko, Ash Greninja even when evolved, and Tornadus, & can even hit a boosted Zygarde and chip it with Psychic. Mega Alakazam has been rising in usage due to Recover being such a big good on it rn & Mega Alakazam is very much overdue to a rise given its rising prevalence and how threatening it can be to so many common builds.

Leo edit: merged with your other post​

 

[Indigo Plateau]

and

should probably rise too, but I'll get to those at some other point

↑ A

Mega Latias is, undeniably, a powerful force in the current metagame. It is a staple on BO and one of the most annoying Pokemon to deal with if the opposing team doesn't have the necessary tools, such as a Dark-type, to break it. However, what really makes Mega Latias A material is its sheer versatility combined with its stellar 80/120/150 bulk. Using a SubCM set, Latias can set up on a multitute of common Pokemon, such as Gastrodon, dual heal Clefable, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex, just to name a few. Roost + 3 attacks is also common nowadays, being able to beat Heatran, Gliscor, Zygarde, Ferrothorn, and Scizor if the rest of the team is able to handle setup sweepers. I've even messed around with CM / Roost / SP / coverage, which was my favorite set during ORAS, and used it successfully. Levitate means that it's an excellent fit and wincon on hazard stacking builds, as it's able to wear down and beat opposing Clef / Torn / Gastro builds that are seen pretty often atm.

As shown by its usage stat during SmogTours, Latias sat slightly below Mega Scizor and slightly above Mega Latios in usage and actually had the best win % between those three:
| 14 | Latias | 156 | 11.30% | 53.85% |

Mega Latias' good defensive and offensive stats coupled with the versatility of its sets make it a top-tier mega that has to be taken into account when building and, as such, deserves a rise to A rank alongside megas like Scizor, Medicham, (and hopefully) Latios.

Quickly skimming this page, I also agree that

and

should both rise, as they benefit from recent metagame trends, but I think they've been talked about enough already. Personally, I've really enjoyed using

lately and think it has a lot of potential, but I'll probably delve into that in meta thread or at a later time.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Just gonna go through some nominations people made in this thread.

Volcarona from A to A+: Agree.
Volcarona finds many setup opportunities in the current metagame with Clefable, AV Magearna, AV Tapu Bulu, and others being very common. Defog support is also easy to find in the current metagame, with Mega Lati@s, Kartana, and Gliscor being very good atm. SD Gliscor is great atm, being an amazing partner for Volcarona. Hawlucha usage is also dying down atm. A lot of teams are sleeping on Volcarona, and thus Volcarona’s sweeping potential rises.

Zapdos from A- to A: Disagree.
Nothing has really changed for Zapdos for the better, quite the opposite actually. It is huge bait for Mega Lati@s, and is Wish fodder for Clefable. Zygarde is also extremely common and good atm, and Zapdos is a good setup target for Zygarde. Hawlucha is also dying down. Zapdos is a good mon, but it shouldn’t be ranked alongside mons like Tornadus-T, Tapu Lele, and other mons like that.

Mega Lati@s from A- to A: Agree.
These mons are amazing atm. Latias is an amazing wincon atm, people aren’t bringing very good answers to it. It finds plenty of oppurtunitites to setup by virtue of Clefable, Defensive Lando, and Shuca Berry Koko. Any team lacking Tyranitar, Weavile, Chansey, or Toxapex is going to have a very difficult time dealing with Calm Mind Latias. The utitly set is also very good glue atm and can be tailored to teams needs. Mega Latios is Offenses best switchin to Heatran, and is also very good glue. Both mons are very splashable and good atm, and deserve to be ranked in A.

Weavile from B+ to A-: Agree.
I don’t have much to add to this, in summary Weavile just has very few switchin atm and can trap Mega Lati@s and check Zygarde.

Gliscor from A- to A: Agree.
Don’t have much to add either, but I agree for the reasons people stated.
Now for a nomination of my own.

Mega Heracross from B- to B.
Mega Heracross is as amazing mon atm. It finds opportunities to wallbreaker through Weavile, Mega Latias, and AV Bulu. Bulkier teams just don’t have very good answers to it atm, often resorting to Clefable and Tornadus-T. Tornadus gets OHKOed by Rock Blast. As for Clefable, +2 Rock Blast 2HKOs and Clefable can’t OHKO back. Hawlucha usage is also down atm. Offense has legitimately no switchins (lol defensive Lando is not an answer to Hera). Heracross has great matchups at the moment, and deserves a raise because of this.

 

[Kanmi]

I would like to nominate Diggersby

from UR to C or C+

I think that people haven't tested Diggersby enough because it has flaws that made it look bad at the first glance in comparison with the other breakers that have a better speed tier or bulk (making them more useful vs offense), however, it’s a fair trade considering that it has tools that can make it a better choice in some scenarios.
The first thing that should be mentioned is that the meta trends are all in favor of Diggersby (and breakers in general). Balance is the most popular playstyle at this moment, this is good for breakers because it solves a common issue shared for most of them: the speed. Digerssby has a speed tier bad vs offense but great vs balance, even when running an adamant nature, Diggersby outspeeds the things that it needs to break and the most common defensive pivots, being Zapdos the most relevant. Other thing important about balance is that Diggersby can set up in front of the most of the defensive Pokémon because its bulk, while isn’t impressive, allows it to take neutral hits.

Now that the problem of the speed is "solved" is time to justify why use Diggersby over other breakers.

Power: thanks to Huge Power Diggersby (when using an Adamant nature) has the fourth highest attack of the tier, only being outpaced for Mega Heracross, Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile (in that order) but here's where one of the benefits of use it is evident: Diggersby has the highest attack of non-mega Pokémon in the tier along with Kartana (3 points of difference are nothing). It means that you can use another mega in your team that can fill another role in the team if needed, while Diggersby can make holes in the opposing team for it thanks to its attack stat that allow it to 2HKO almost the entire tier.
Diggersby has the same attack stat of Kartana but has a better stab combination (and a better movepool), this is relevant because in a fact, Kartana is one of the reason why the Diggersby stab combination is great in the current meta. Normal/Ground is an amazing at this moment because the meta trends have made that the mons that resist both have fallen in grace, Celesteela and Skarmory aren't longer as common as they used to do that is because Kartana and Hawlucha take adventage of their steel type to make to wear them down with their fighting moves. This is great for Dibbersby because now it can spam its stab moves without almost any drawbacks, that is because while normal is resisted by large number of Pokémon in the tier, they also are weak or take neutral damage from ground, so play around it is risky (but not imposible), for that I don’t recommend a choice set. And even you can afford to use a moveslot to run fire punch and get rid of Skarmory, Celesteela, Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor if they are problematic for your team and get a perfect coverage for everything that is not Mega Aerodactyl.
The most part of the time Diggersby just spam normal moves but its stab EQ allows it to OHKO things that other breakers can’t without any boost, examples:

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 374-444 (103 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 222-262 (61.1 - 72.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Terrakion Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 192-228 (52.8 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 290-344 (95.7 - 113.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Pinsir-Mega Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 172-204 (56.7 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Charizard-Mega-X Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 152-180 (50.1 - 59.4%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Jirachi is also a big one but don’t want to flood the post with calcs.

Its Ground type gives to Diggersby an electric immunity, this is nice because it can block volt switch and take advantage of Zapdos, an amazing Pokémon at this moment, to set up in front of it.

To summarize: Diggersby is a niche wall breaker that doesn't take your mega slot, doesn't require much support (actually it provides it), has little to no existent defensive counterplay and even take advantage of the meta trends, it also can be a late game cleaner vs slower or frail/weakened teams. It struggles vs offense, healthy faster Pokémon with strong or effective moves can beat it with ease, however, they can't switch in directly and must avoid getting into the quick attack range.
Things that it has but I haven’t tested if they work well in the current meta:
Agility to solve its speed issue, I think that it hardly would work and would require a lot of support.
Spikes, I think that is better just attack and dent something than setting up spikes, also there’s better setters but it can help if you don’t have a setter already.
Ice Punch, with it Diggersby could break the Magearna and Landorus T defensive core without much prediction and it also could help to not becoming a set up fodder to Zygarde, cool option if your team struggles vs that core and Zygarde.
I have been using this set mainly and it does what it has to do but there’s other options:

Diggersby @ Silk Scarf
Ability: Huge Power
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Frustration
- Quick Attack
- Earthquake
- Swords Dance

Like I said, normal is really spammable and you will be clicking Frustration and Quick Attack the most part of the time, that is why Silk Scarf. Not using life orb because the recoil is bad if you consider that Diggersby can set up in front of foes that doesn’t can OHKO but it also isn’t bulky so in would kill himself two turns after set up, making it easy to play around. Life orb could be ok in a Spikes/four attacks set but not for SD, also there’s not notable Kos that the damage output of life orb helps to get if Adamant, with the silk scarf it already can 2HKO Clef and Quagsire after rocks. Choice items are just awful.

Replays:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-759115395
Diggersby forced a sacrifice the two times that it switch in, Mega Pinsir and Kartana would have been walled by Zapdos and also shows how Diggersby works well along other breakers like Tapu lele. (Fini couldn't have killed it in the turn 25 if attacked btw)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-759602023
Thanks to its teammates exerting pressure and a miss predict for part of my opponent with its Clef (that didn’t matter much anyways) Diggersby got every KO vs a stall team. Also show that unaware mons get 2HKO by Diggersby.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-760253677
Diggersby saves the game after my opponent choked and allow me to put his Lando to sleep. Showing that with support, Diggersby can be a win condition even vs offense (even if Lando wake up turn one, after Quick Attack Amoonguss could have KO Landorus with Gigadrain after healing itself with Regenator thanks to Nihilego)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-759104225
The best match up for Diggersby ever, it that shows that Diggersby has a limited defensive counterplay that much balance teams can’t afford to bring. Thanks to some rocks that only lasted five turns and a safe switch in Diggersby beat a whole team. Just in the fourth turn Diggersby got an important KO for Tapu Lele and Alakazam in case Diggersby were stopped with static. At +2 Megearna gets OHKO even with the grassy terrain, Charizard gets OHKO after rocks, Clef get 2HKO but can’t OHKO it in return (once again is showed that unaware mons are unreliable checks), also Gastrodon and Zapdos get OHKO so the game was done since that turn. I could have killed Zapdos before it used defog but since Zapdos can’t do anything to Diggersby I could afford to use it as set up fodder in case it were max speed or get para with static so Charizard or Gastrodon couldn’t revenge kill it. The team of my opponent wasn’t bad, it was built in the way that any other mon couldn’t break it that easily but it shows how the current meta doesn’t have a good defensive answer vs Diggersby.

 

[Ohmboy Tesla]

Has enough time passed to unrank

yet?

It sits at a whopping 145th place in the usage stats (weighted 1695) and its best partners according to the stats would be either full stall (Sableye-M +49.501% | Chansey +47.736% | Shedinja +45.273% | Skarmory +37.903%) for which I'm very confident better hazard removers exist (Skarm is even on that list... so it can remove hazards for Avalugg?); or a combination of Nidoking, regular Hoopa and Stunfisk AKA "that one Omari P team" from which I'm pretty sure 90% of its usage comes.

It's incredibly one-dimensional, and a bunch of better removers/physical bulky 'mons with a lot more viability exist. All you're ever doing with it is sending it in (but only when T Spikes aren't on the field ofc), recovering your 25% SR damage so Sturdy isn't broken, Spin hazards if the situation allows it, and retreat from the threatening Special Attacker that's now in front of you.
I get that RS over Defog is pretty nice, but that one move doesn't justify Avalugg's usage imo.

 

[TheUprising007]

I have no opinion on Avalugg, as I've never used it.

While it may be one dimensional; that shouldn't be used to bash it imo, because theres quite a few mons who fit the bill but are very dangerous. Versatility doesn't always equate to viability.

It differently has a niche, as it's one of the few mons that can take on Mega Maw(one on one, should it have EQ), mega Pin, All sets of Lando( it's true that it needs protect to properly counter AoA RockiumZ set, that is if it switches in at plus 2 and it's ability is compromised), Zygarde (including the notorious weakness policy set, and steeliumZ set), All sets of Diggersby, Banded HoopaU, Hax, Banded Staraptor, IceiumZ KyuB with Hp fire, Garchomp(if it's not a rare mixed attacking set) Dragonite, Salamence, even banded Azumaril. All using one set and without having its ability activated.

Yes, it needs hazard support, however most mons do, and for an enterprising stall team, there's potential in Avalugg

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Avalugg is Ranked because it is a fantastic blanket check to most physical attackers. Being a counter to every Zygarde set is also very nice. It can go 1v1 with many major threats such as Scarf tana, Mega Pinsir, Lando, Zygarde, Mega Mawile and others. Hazard Removal is not it's niche, it's just nice to have. I don't see anything that has changed what Avalugg does, the 40% Tran usage isn't nice for it but it does run EQ on most sets which I believe in this meta is 100% more useful than Toxic.

Overall while not the best mon, nothing has changed for it since it's ranking and it does have a Niche. Keep it ranked.