***[VOTE] The final Deoxys-S "discussion" thread***

[Instinctive]

I love you GoldDraconian. You just concisely wrote everything I have been trying to say without offending anybody or going off on random tangents. We should have that post put into the OP for convenient access to all users.

 

[Hipmonlee]

When we say Deoxys E is better than everything else, the implication is that it is so much better that it reduces your options or variety or whatever.

Blissey is not being banned not because it isnt the best, but because banning it doesnt help. It isnt true that there are other special walls that are being overlooked because of Blisseys dominance, there just are no other viable special walls. Nor does Blissey prevent people using entirely special based teams. Furthermore, what is an all-special team? I dont see any reason why anyone would use an all-special team, because there is no way in which special pokemon benefit from being in a team with other special pokemon. An all-special team is what I would call a gimmick.

An all offensive team works because you can prevent multiple switch ins to threatening pokemon by trying to attack constantly, and sacrificing to do damage, and then revenge kill. But revenge killing Deoxys is really only possible with Pursuit Metagross or Sucker Punch or something. I mean, it doesnt make offensive teams impossible, but it is a serious restriction. I dont think it is by itself justification for the banning of Deoxys, but coupled with the fact that it makes Choice Scarf redundant, and our other points, it adds up to a serious unbalancing element to the metagame.

When you say being versatile is not grounds for banning, the question really ought to be how versatile does it have to be to be grounds for banning. If there was a pokemon that does everything as well as anything else, then it would clearly need to be banned. Deoxys-Es versatility is part of a number of features it has that makes it stand out as being far ahead of everything else in the game. It's the fastest pokemon, and it is far stronger both defensively and offensively than anything else fast until you look at something like Raikou. It also has way more options in that it can spikes, or boost stats with cosmic power or just go for all out attack. But the fact is none of these are really grounds for banning taken by themselves, but they are evidence that supports our claims that this pokemon replaces a large enough range of options that it is hurting the metagame.

The reason Choice Scarf should be a good item, is that if it is it increases your options and therefore variety.

Also I made a post last night about how stall teams have no recourse against OHKOs and so OHKOs should be banned. Stall teams still work in DP, there is no need to ban counter stall pokemon, because I am unaware of any that are as dominating as Deoxys. Except Garchomp I guess, but I want that thing banned anyway.

Have a nice day.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

You know what? You've finally swayed me enough to vote one way or the other. I'm going to vote that Deoxys-S should stay in OU. When I was using my all-offense team and got swept by it, my immediate reaction was "maybe I should be using Metagross/Cresselia," not "damn, that thing's uber." It's one pokemon in OU, that has more than one solid counter. A team that lacks the defensive means to deal with at least a few major threats most likely needs work, imo.

This post ignores every argument in favor of banning Deoxys-Speed. It's not about team structure, its about the style of play that a team requires to use. A team based on resistances and revenge killing (which I might add was by far the most popular playing style in D/P before D-S was allowed) loses to D-S. Nobody is questioning the fact that D-S can be countered, its that you have to have a counter to it that relies on defensive stats alone which is detrimental to a fast-paced style of play. Your vote is under the impression that all teams must have pokemon with massive defensive stats or else they suck, which is simply false.

 

[RaikouLover]

Originally Posted by Fat jujuomi
I have found that deoxes-S is as bad and evil as garchomp. Hard to counter, but once you get the right moment hes out. Deoxes-s is fast but it mostly can't do any damage without a choice item, which makes it vulnerable to switches and the likes. And as long as you can switch to the right counters sometimes, its easy to defeat it. [I know that I shouldn't compare its viablity while including chance, but this game is mostly luck after you've got your numbers)

Another example of misinterpreting the pro-ban argument. Deoxys and Garchomp are two different evils. Offensive teams have no problem because Garchomp isn't getting more than 1 kill on them, because they rely on resistances, but more importantly BLAZING SPEED to revenge threats and keep constant pressure on. Deoxys-E outspeeds every pokemon in OU and fast-paced resistance offensive teams can't even touch him for that reason alone.

Deoxys-E almost never carries a Choice Item... Why? He doesn't need Scarf because he's faster than your ass, and he's got the movepool to hit... 72% of OU super effective. Sure, you can keep switching, but chances are he hits most of your team super effective as well, and he still outspeeds you. Most of those offensive teams of the past can be easily 6-0ed by Deoxys which is a feat that no other pokemon in OU could accomplish. Now they have been deemed obselete... they were viable before, but not if one pokemon ruins them so easily that can't be countered without changing the strategy.

We've all said this so many times. Perhaps you should read through the thread more.

 

[DDyarados]

Now, I'm probably gonna sound like a noob, so this is just a disclaimer.

From my experience, the sweeper deoxys is easily countered by anything that can wall on both sides on the spectrum, and doesn't need evs for both sp. def AND def, or vice versa. The perfect example imo, is Cresselia. It can take superpowers, obviously, and has enough sp. def, even if its mainly walling for physical side, to withstand shadow balls and thunder wave it, thus incapacitating it.

Now, granted, not every team carries cresselia, that was just one example. I'm trying to say, that, at least from personal experience, (feel free to ignore this, seeing as it is pure subjectivity) deoxys has never been able to dent any of my walls significantly enough to actually prove an effective sweeper. LO and a great movepool, and obviously, great speed, are all great but lessened by the fact that it can easily be neutralized by a mixed wall, or a special wall not weak to superpower. Lest we forget 95 base sp. atk isnt fantastic. It's good, but not game-breaking.


The wall version of deoxys-E has caused more problems, however. Taunt from anything with great speed is devastating if you dont see it coming. Cosmic Power and Recover is great. However, again, it still has a measly 50 base HP, and average sp. def and def for a wall. Having not seen this variation as much, I can't say just how bad or good it can be. But it's not like it has great resistances, and has a few relatively common weaknesses, bug and ghost.

In conclusion, I cast my vote for Deoxys-S staying in OU.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah, so what if your team ^^^^ that got you to the top of the ladder months ago, that had NO walls, suddenly started getting anal raped by the introduction of 1 pokemon. Do you change your successful team and hamper its strategy to counter that one pokemon? Sounds like overcentralizing.

Basically, DDyarados your saying Deoxys-E is easily countered by many walls. Cool, now I HAVE to use walls... thats overcentralizing of the highest degree. I never had to do that for any other pokemon in OU, but now I have to conform to Deoxys-E.

 

[DDyarados]

<_<

Well I don't want to get into an argument, but think about it this way. What would have happened if Deoxys-E was OU from the start of D/P? Would you still have to have "changed" your team?

I think the introduction of a single new pokemon will almost always have an effect on the metagame, but I don't think it would have had as much effect as people are saying if it had been introduced along with the other 50 or w/e pokes that came into the viable metagame with D/P.

I do not think that Deoxys-E would have been as "over-centralizing", as you say, if it had been introduced at the start of D/P. However, since it was introduced in the "middle" I suppose you could call it, of the metagame, it had a much larger effect.

Also, the metagame is always going to be changing, so who cares if you have to change your team to deal with it. That's part of the game.


Also, this is unrelated, I'm just posting an UNOFFICIAL vote tally. I just wanted to tally it up so people would get a general idea on how the vote is going...I wanted to know, at least. <.<

Uber status:40

OU status: 56

Again, it's completely unofficial, but I just wanted to help people have an idea of how the vote was going if you hadn't been watching the topic from the start.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

<_<

Well I don't want to get into an argument, but think about it this way. What would have happened if Deoxys-E was OU from the start of D/P? Would you still have to have "changed" your team?

I think the introduction of a single new pokemon will almost always have an effect on the metagame, but I don't think it would have had as much effect as people are saying if it had been introduced along with the other 50 or w/e pokes that came into the viable metagame with D/P.

I do not think that Deoxys-E would have been as "over-centralizing", as you say, if it had been introduced at the start of D/P. However, since it was introduced in the "middle" I suppose you could call it, of the metagame, it had a much larger effect.

Your post is cool because it actually helps the "D-S is Uber" argument

I agree with you that D-S' impact is especially noticeable because of the fact it was unbanned, the fact still remains that you need a dedicated defensive pokemon to counter it. Instead of having to change teams, the teams would have never existed in the first place. This post outlines exactly why "we" feel that D-S is uber, because it eliminates a disproportionate amount of teams from becoming usable by simply existing.

 

[husk]

Through my own personal experience (which should be good enough reasoning as most of the theorymon I could discuss has already been brought up) deoxys-s is not threatening or centralizing enough to deserve to be moved back to ubers. In my opinion, Deoxys-s is not uber.

 

[IggyBot]

Many of the arguments as to why Deoxys-S is uber are, to me, utterly ridiculous.

"It's really fast, therefore it is unfair." "Deoxys-S gets used, therefore it is unfair." "The metagame has changed since the introduction of Deoxys-S, therefore it is unfair." What the hell kind of reasoning is that? Deoxys-S has the audacity to be GOOD at something, so it needs to be relegated to ubers? If this had been something arbitrary like Salamence and Lucario that had been initially banned and later introduced into the metagame, do you really think there would have been no impact? Clearly, the metagame would change significantly by introducing any one of those into a meta that didn't have it. But, so far as I know, there is no serious movement to ban either of them. Why should Deoxys be treated differently?

The difference between Deoxys-S, and Lucario/Salamence/Gengar/whatever, is that none of them have eliminated an entire style of team. Deoxys-S does this, and if you read my previous posts, I outline exactly why you can't just throw a Deoxys-S counter (or Dugtrio) into these types of teams.

Being the best at a particular role is apparently NOT grounds for banning, else Blissey among others would require immediate banning from OU. "Invalidating Choice Scarf" (as though Choice Scarf's only use was to make sure that nothing in existence outspeeds you...) is not enough, since there is no reason why Choice Scarf needs to be a good item, and frankly, I have always questioned whether it really warrants the hype. Being versatile is clearly also insufficient to warrant banning. Otherwise Tyranitar, Salamence, Lucario, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gengar, Azelf and others should be banned too, which few to no people advocate.

Blissey can not be compared to Deoxys-S, because there are no other truely viable special walls to compare Blissey to. When you think of special walling, it IS Blissey, there is nothing else that truely falls into that category.

When you say there's no reason choice scarf needs to be a good item, I agree with you. There isn't. However, the fact that the option of using a Choice Scarf adds variety to OU means that it shouldn't be thrown out of most pokemons bag of tricks thanks to Deoxys-S being clearly superior to every choice scarf pokemon in existance. No, Deoxys-S being versatile shouldn't be grounds for banning, but what about Deoxys-S taking away the versatility of other pokemon?

People seem to have some kind of preposterous expectation that every Deoxys-S should be fully counterable with a single Pokemon, and furthermore, that it must be one of the particular six Pokemon they already have. Very few OU monsters indeed can be covered 100% by a single Pokemon, so I see no precedent for this expectation. If you have only one Garchomp counter, for example, you are almost certainly vulnerable to being screwed by one of Yache Berry, Substitute, Scarf, Band or ChainChomp. Garchomp is arguably not even the most extreme example here, so if you think he belongs in ubers, consider Salamence or Lucario instead and the argument works the same way.

I agree with you here. No pokemon definitly needs, nor has a 100% counter.

The argument that "I can't play the same team as I had before Deoxys-S came in without possibly losing if all my guys are at low health and the opponent has Deoxys" (approximately) is situational to the point where it's hardly worth addressing. If you build a team with a big hole in it AND allow the opponent to maneuver the game to the point where he can exploit that hole, and he does... is that because the threat is broken, or does it indicate that you just screwed up? In this day and age, you simply cannot counter everything 100%. Deal with it.

Despite what some of my previous posts look like, I am not complaining about my teams not being able to deal with Deoxys-S. My point isn't the fact that just a couple of teams can't deal with Deoxys-S, but a whole entire style team is incapable of dealing with Deoxys-S. These offensive teams that I'm referring to work by utilizing resistances to get in, and speed and attack to hit hard. They are essentially glass cannon teams, and yes, they are very viable. However, when Deoxys-S is most likely hitting at the very least, 4/6 pokemon for SE damage, and outspeeding the whole team, the very foundation of these teams is gone.

I do find the vocal protests about Deoxys's supposed "elimination" of offensive teams hypocritical, as those voices tend not to whine about how Blissey kills off all-special teams or how wallbreakers can destroy all-stall teams. I think most people do tend to find offense-oriented play more enjoyable, myself included, but that is not justification to make bad policy decisions to promote it. If fun were a legitimate point (which it is not, since it is entirely subjective), Garchomp would've been shown the door about a year ago, and Blissey would have been forced to exit stage right more than half a decade ago and never allowed to return. Being able to play any set of 6 that you bloody well feel like is not an objective we have here, because it is unattainable.

Again, Blissey and Deoxys-S are uncomparable, and I don't know why people keep bringing it up. Like Hipmonlee said, what do all special teams gain by being all special? Nothing. However, to expand on this a bit further, Blissey does not actually beat all special teams. There are special attackers in this metagame that can break Blissey. But this is extremely off topic and has cirtually nothing to do with the argument at hand, so I'll stop here.

With all that said, I think Deoxys-S should continue to be monitored, but I don't feel it's inherently more dangerous than any of the top OUs. It's fast, but the sweeping should get snapped in half by any respectable STAB move, and is ruined by anything carrying T-Wave that lives a hit. The defensive one can hardly be considered broken if Starmie and Cresselia (and hell, even things like Dusknoir and Spiritomb- at least they have useful resistances) are not. However, if it really does turn out that it forces everyone to run multiple counters for Deoxys-S, or counters that are vastly inappropriate for the team, or counters that are total garbage for any purpose other than stopping Deoxys (although this latter is a weaker one, since Magnezone is effectively garbage for almost anything other than killing Skarmory but Skarm seems to be considered "fair"), then by all means, it should be re-evaluated and likely banned. Unless one of those occurs, or we finally come to a consensus on what the definition is for "uber" or "overcentralizing", I see no reason to prohibit its use.

The first bolded sentance makes me question your actual experience with Deoxys-S, simply because you say it "should". The second bolded sentance is something that I outlined a few pages back, since none of Deoxys-S's counters work with the type of offensive team that I am talking about. At this point this post is most likely usless, considering it looks like Deoxys-S will remain OU. I do predict that this discussion will arise again though, and with (hopefully) different results.

 

[Tangerine]

<insert really long post here>

The thing is, as Hipmonlee pointed out, you really aren't comprehending the argument, and you are throwing around simplified arguments that can, in fact, apply to any uber out there.

Your entire rant is just saying "look at how ridiculous these arguments are", when they don't represent the arguments at all.

I do see how you could reach this conclusion and I'm not going to accuse you of just arbitrarily throwing up a straw man argument to support your point, because it is true that a lot of the arguments were phrased pretty badly at the beginning and even in the middle. Just know that the arguments do have more substance than what you simplified down to and you should really take a closer look at them.

I'm not going to reiterate what the argument is, since we've done it a million times.

Thanks

 

[RaikouLover]

I guess my question now is, the majority of the Deoxys-E for OU votes that I have read and seen look something along the line of "Deoxys-E is easily countered and isn't threatening enough to be uber based on my experience." How do you counter an argument that completely misses the boat, yet this is what voters are asked to do; draw from their own experiences. No one besides Tangerine, myself, Iggy, Jrrr, and a few others even mention the change he has had since is introduction to OU. How should we respond to votes like that? Will all this be taken into consideration? I don't even think a good number of people in this thread even battled before, during and after the introduction and metagame shift of deoxys-E. Therefore, I see a lot of voters making assumptions and uneducated remarks that lead me to believe that they aren't familar to Deoxys-E, haven't used it, or haven't encountered it much. Thats not helping the discussion...

 

[imperfectluck]

Many of the arguments as to why Deoxys-S is uber are, to me, utterly ridiculous.
"It's really fast, therefore it is unfair." "Deoxys-S gets used, therefore it is unfair." "The metagame has changed since the introduction of Deoxys-S, therefore it is unfair." What the hell kind of reasoning is that? Deoxys-S has the audacity to be GOOD at something, so it needs to be relegated to ubers? If this had been something arbitrary like Salamence and Lucario that had been initially banned and later introduced into the metagame, do you really think there would have been no impact? Clearly, the metagame would change significantly by introducing any one of those into a meta that didn't have it. But, so far as I know, there is no serious movement to ban either of them. Why should Deoxys be treated differently?

Salamence and Lucario, as far as I know, have not made such an impact on the metagame as to make an item drop in usage, or make a style of play unfeasible (to say that Salamence and Lucario are wallbreakers is true, but they can be countered even with stall teams.) "Clearly the metagame would change significantly" indicates that the metagame has indeed changed due to the introduction of Deoxys-E, and here we are arguing that it should be banned due to its metagame changes. What does this theoretical movement to ban Lucario/Salamence have to do with Deoxys-E, btw?

Being the best at a particular role is apparently NOT grounds for banning, else Blissey among others would require immediate banning from OU. "Invalidating Choice Scarf" (as though Choice Scarf's only use was to make sure that nothing in existence outspeeds you...) is not enough, since there is no reason why Choice Scarf needs to be a good item, and frankly, I have always questioned whether it really warrants the hype. Being versatile is clearly also insufficient to warrant banning. Otherwise Tyranitar, Salamence, Lucario, Dragonite, Garchomp, Gengar, Azelf and others should be banned too, which few to no people advocate.

Perhaps being best at a particular role is not apparently immediate grounds for banning something, but what about being so good at a job that it makes other Pokemon "go out of business," per se? What about its impact on the offensive metagame? Versatility isn't bannable on its own perhaps, but what about all these factors combined?

People seem to have some kind of preposterous expectation that every Deoxys-S should be fully counterable with a single Pokemon, and furthermore, that it must be one of the particular six Pokemon they already have. Very few OU monsters indeed can be covered 100% by a single Pokemon, so I see no precedent for this expectation. If you have only one Garchomp counter, for example, you are almost certainly vulnerable to being screwed by one of Yache Berry, Substitute, Scarf, Band or ChainChomp. Garchomp is arguably not even the most extreme example here, so if you think he belongs in ubers, consider Salamence or Lucario instead and the argument works the same way.

Garchomp can be "countered" as can Salamence, Lucario, and every other Pokemon out there. Garchomp countering gets into centralization and the topic of Garchomp so I won't go into it here, but Salamence, Lucario etc. are Pokemon that can easily be accounted for without changing the team makeup significantly. Besides, "counters" isn't an argument for banning Deoxys-E, it's about how it replaces others in the role of revenge killing and reduces the variety of offensive teams out there.

The argument that "I can't play the same team as I had before Deoxys-S came in without possibly losing if all my guys are at low health and the opponent has Deoxys" (approximately) is situational to the point where it's hardly worth addressing. If you build a team with a big hole in it AND allow the opponent to maneuver the game to the point where he can exploit that hole, and he does... is that because the threat is broken, or does it indicate that you just screwed up? In this day and age, you simply cannot counter everything 100%. Deal with it.

I think that's a good argument for our side... pre-Deoxys-E, a good useable team was perfectly good for laddering. The emergence of Deoxys-E, the only one of its kind to perform its niche, made that type of team unuseable. A hole that once wasn't there in that type of team opened up... is the elimination of possible types of teams a good thing for the metagame? I say not.

I do find the vocal protests about Deoxys's supposed "elimination" of offensive teams hypocritical, as those voices tend not to whine about how Blissey kills off all-special teams or how wallbreakers can destroy all-stall teams. I think most people do tend to find offense-oriented play more enjoyable, myself included, but that is not justification to make bad policy decisions to promote it. If fun were a legitimate point (which it is not, since it is entirely subjective), Garchomp would've been shown the door about a year ago, and Blissey would have been forced to exit stage right more than half a decade ago and never allowed to return. Being able to play any set of 6 that you bloody well feel like is not an objective we have here, because it is unattainable.

Blissey can be easily dealt with by special sweeper teams with Nasty Plotters like Togekiss and Exploders like Azelf without losing the core centered on special sweeping. Blissey's existence in and of itself does not prevent special sweeper teams from being perfectly useable. Who said anything about banning Deoxys-E based on "fun?" Why is that being brought up? Perhaps we shouldn't just let everyone be able to use 6 Magikarps, but isn't by banning Deoxys-E, leading to more variety in team makeup, "good" for the health of the metagame, leading to more options?

With all that said, I think Deoxys-S should continue to be monitored, but I don't feel it's inherently more dangerous than any of the top OUs. It's fast, but the sweeping should get snapped in half by any respectable STAB move, and is ruined by anything carrying T-Wave that lives a hit. The defensive one can hardly be considered broken if Starmie and Cresselia (and hell, even things like Dusknoir and Spiritomb- at least they have useful resistances) are not. However, if it really does turn out that it forces everyone to run multiple counters for Deoxys-S, or counters that are vastly inappropriate for the team, or counters that are total garbage for any purpose other than stopping Deoxys (although this latter is a weaker one, since Magnezone is effectively garbage for almost anything other than killing Skarmory but Skarm seems to be considered "fair"), then by all means, it should be re-evaluated and likely banned. Unless one of those occurs, or we finally come to a consensus on what the definition is for "uber" or "overcentralizing", I see no reason to prohibit its use.

I actually would prefer to see Deoxys-E further tested on the ladder so as to collect statistics on such things as items, but I doubt that there is the time or inclination to do that. What is a "respectable" STAB move? Anything with a decent attack is probably a sweeper (other than Metagross/Scizor/select company) that's weak to Deoxys-E's attacks, or you're a tank and you won't be OHKOing Deoxys-E. We've already mentioned several times in this topic that status should be avoided by smart players and not be mentioned as a way to designate a Pokemon as "non-uber," as all Pokemon can equally be crippled by status. My two cents on Deoxys-E.

 

[husk]

Could someone explain to me what this whole "Deoxys-s killed a playing style" argument is. There are still a lot of offensive or "glass cannon" teams out there. They still perform well. In fact deoxys-s fits on those teams extremely well! I was around before deoxys-s was unbanned and I'm still around now obviously, somehow I missed this trend.

 

[SirHandsome6]

Lol, this is a strategy game. You're not supposed to be able to win using any 6 pokemon you want. If your offensive team cannot handle Deoxys, its just not a good team, because he is currently allowed.

Whether or not it was a good team before Deoxys became unbanned is completely irrelevant. Change is not inherently bad. You have to adapt, or lose.

 

[Bender]

I agree that in the month that I used Deoxy-e with the LO set, the only time I ever let it get paralyzed was when it was the last member and it was unavoidable. I would just switch into Garchomp/Mamoswine and often get a turn to set up.

 

[RaikouLover]

Lol, this is a strategy game. You're not supposed to be able to win using any 6 pokemon you want. If your offensive team cannot handle Deoxys, its just not a good team, because he is currently allowed.

Whether or not it was a good team before Deoxys became unbanned is completely irrelevant. Change is not inherently bad. You have to adapt, or lose.

Your making our point. Either you change your playing style, or you get raped by Deoxys-E. That's why we are arguing for him being uber. The metagame has adjusted accordingly. You may not have noticed it, but all of us who played a lot pre-deoxys and post-deoxys note the change.

 

[Aldaron]

I played a lot pre-Deoxys-S and post-Deoxys-S and I played well and I consider myself to be a top player in both periods.

I do not note a significant change.

Do you see how simply saying that means nothing?

What you, Iggybot, IPL and the like need to do is more effectively clarify what you mean by Deoxys-S reduces the viability of certain types of teams, because now even husk is asking what exactly you guys are talking about.

I might be too harsh or whatever the fuck (lol), but I am sure you can respect husk's confusion regarding this statement and clarify more.

 

[the_artic_one]

My vote goes to not uber.

Building a good team involves a having pokemon to execute a strategy and having pokemon that counter what counters your strategy.

If your strategy is: "use fast but frail sweepers and play resistances to keep my opponent off balance" the logical counter to that is: "a pokemon that is faster than the fast frail sweepers who can hit many of them for SE and OHKO them before they can do anything". Of course the counter to that counter is: " use a slightly bulkier pokemon who can take a few hits and finish off the quick pokemon\force it to switch".

Since there are a reasonable amount of pokemon that can fill the role of the DE counter without being dead weight in the event that the opponent doesn't have a DE, I see no reason why an offensive team shouldn't be encouraged to pack one of them to be more competitave.

When I build a rain-dance team, I need to have a counter to every abomasnow set because he stops my strategy no matter what set he's running (my experimental specs swampert set to stop him was a complete failure), offensive teams only need to counter one single DE set (with maybe 1-2 move variations) to be safe from him and only need to change one slot on their team to do so.

As for CP deoxys, I seem to remember an endless amount of trashing on the CP clefable set with people saying it wasn't viable and that he'd just get critted and die. Why is deoxys with his lower hp and more limited movepool being touted as so much bigger of a threat? Sure DE has taunt, but clefable doesn't care about status effects anyway and can be a pretty big threat to most phasers, plus he has encore to scare off set ups.

 

[Lord Alchemy]

Deoxys-Speed is Uber.

Why? Because of how it makes 90% of Choice Scarfers obsolete. Deoxys-S is unbelievably fast, and is decently powerful and sturdy. Combined with the fact that it has a great move pool and is probably the best Taunter in the game makes Deoxys-Speed far too powerful to Standards. I feel that the re-banning of Deoxys-Speed will see a resurgence of other Choice Scarf users and increases the number of viable strategies.

 

[Sunday]

After using it for a while I am ready to vote Deoxys-e is not Uber. Most of the reasons have been stated and I don't really want to re-hash anything. It's not uncounterable and I think it adds something unique to the metagame which I like.

 

[TVboyCanti]

From my experience using and fighing Deoxys, Deoxys does not have the offensive power to warrant it as a centralizing factor. The sweeper Deoxys has a strategic moveset that is only devastating against tier 1 standard pokemon and glass sweepers because those pokemon have quad weaknesses/poor defenses. Other lower tier pokes and even BLs can shrug off Deoxys attacks and exploit its mediocre and unbolstered defenses for a ko or cripple it with status.

Cosmic Wall Deoxys is a different story. One cosmic makes those defenses adequate, and two makes them wall worthy. After that, it takes a super effective STAB critical hit to kill Deoxys. This, combined with a fast taunt to prevent healing boosting and status, and recover to heal, would make Deoxys bannable if not for one thing. With three moveslots filled up, Deoxys only has room for either toxic, seismic toss, or night shade. Seeing as how steel, ghost, and blissey are extremely popular types in OU, stalleoxys won't be able to score kills if the opponent has a pokemon of the right type to absorb damage. Then, it just becomes a matter of waiting for the crit. As long as the pokemon that is immune to stalleoxy's damaging moves is still alive, Deoxys basically becomes deadweight. It could use spikes instead, which would make Deoxys the only pokemon that could reliably set up spikes in DP without giving the opponent three turns to setup.

"Deoxys makes all-sweeper teams useless"
And Breloom screws over all-wall teams with leech seed and focus punch. Ban Breloom plz.

Sweeper Deoxys relies on quad weaknesses and porcelain monkeys to get kills, and in my opinion this serves to decentralize the metagame away from the top tier OU pokemon(a group which consists of 6 or 8 pokemon), as people who exclusively use these pokemon will be and should be punished when facing Deoxys. I think Deoxys changes the OU metagame in a good way, as it gives players a legitimate reason to look outside the best six walls and best six sweepers when building their team, other than "I wanna be unique". Keep it in OU.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

"Deoxys makes all-sweeper teams useless"
And Breloom screws over all-wall teams with leech seed and focus punch. Ban Breloom plz.

Yeah, except for those ones that have Celebi, Gliscor, Zapdos etc. If you feel that it is not Uber, that's one thing. Don't use silly comparisons like this to base them off of (especially because this one you made is blatantly wrong in every aspect)

 

[Gemerl]

How are sweeper teams THAT affeced? They can just pack a DUGTRIO. It fits in farely well (A frail, fast pokemon that can reveng-kill), and can Sucker Punch the sweeper Deoxys-S to death, and it can't switch out either, so it has no CHOICE but to get KO'd. It doesn't even really have to be a revenge-kill, just get it on a Thunderbolt.

Or, even use a timid Yanmega. Protect for one turn to get a speed boost, and it then becomes faster than the standard hasty Deoxys with 96 speed EV's, and can still OHKO with Bug Buzz. Ninjask works in the same respect even, just protect for the speed boost, then OHKO with X-Scissor.

Both Yanmega and Dugtrio can be viable options for a sweeper team, though I admit Ninjask may not be, but Ninjask is not bad at attacking by any means, and can pass speed boosts to others on the team to help out anyways (And maybe giving them a chance to outrun Deoxys).

That's 3 viable options right there. And heck, I think Absol wouldn't do bad with a STAB Sucker punch coming from 130 attack. Deoxys is NOT unmanagable, I just don't see how it can totally wipe out an entire style of play, just think of ways to get around it without altering your overall strategy too much, which the 3 examples I just gave do. Honestly, if you can't think of ways around it, then you haven't looked hard enough for alternatives.

 

[august]

How are sweeper teams THAT affeced? They can just pack a DUGTRIO. It fits in farely well (A frail, fast pokemon that can reveng-kill), and can Sucker Punch the sweeper Deoxys-S to death, and it can't switch out either, so it has no CHOICE but to get KO'd. It doesn't even really have to be a revenge-kill, just get it on a Thunderbolt.

Or, even use a timid Yanmega. Protect for one turn to get a speed boost, and it then becomes faster than the standard hasty Deoxys with 96 speed EV's, and can still OHKO with Bug Buzz. Ninjask works in the same respect even, just protect for the speed boost, then OHKO with X-Scissor.

Both Yanmega and Dugtrio can be viable options for a sweeper team, though I admit Ninjask may not be, but Ninjask is not bad at attacking by any means, and can pass speed boosts to others on the team to help out anyways (And maybe giving them a chance to outrun Deoxys).

That's 3 viable options right there. And heck, I think Absol wouldn't do bad with a STAB Sucker punch coming from 130 attack. Deoxys is NOT unmanagable, I just don't see how it can totally wipe out an entire style of play, just think of ways to get around it without altering your overall strategy too much, which the 3 examples I just gave do. Honestly, if you can't think of ways around it, then you haven't looked hard enough for alternatives.

Your forgetting the fact that not all Deoxys E are offensive. Explain to me how Dugtrio beats Spikes/ Cosmic Power Deoxys E with Sucker Punch

I am voting Deoxys E as Uber. Not because of the fact it can rip through offensive teams, but more so the fact it has the element of sheer unpredictability that not many other pokemon have, and decent offense and a speed that cant go below 360 with a -Spd nature and a 0 IV.