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Weavile (Full Revamp) +
- Thread starter darkie
- Start date
Weavile was in need of a revamp, though not because of Platinum tutors. The analysis was very outdated, and there were many grammatical errors, so I thought this was needed.
Changes
- Removed 'Sub Punch'.
- Took out slashes for items in the 'Swords Dance' set.
- Added Bullet Punch Scizor to 'Counters'.
- Removed Garchomp and Deoxys-S references.
- Trimmed 'Revenge' set down to 3 paragraphs.
- Slashed Ice Punch / Night Slash not Ice Punch / Ice Shard in the 'Revenge' and 'Swords Dance' sets.
- Made 'Opinion' section more truthful about Weavile's problems in today's metagame.
- Added Weezing to the 'Counters' section.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/weavile
---
[SET]
name: Revenge Killer
move 1: Pursuit
move 2: Ice Shard
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Ice Punch / Night Slash
item: Choice Band
nature: Jolly
evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>At first glance, this Weavile seems to be a generic Choice Bander, but this set functions as insurance against many of the metagame’s top threats. This is mostly thanks to Weavile’s STAB Pursuit, which OHKOes Azelf, Gengar, and Alakazam, even if they stay in. Starmie is also OHKOed by a Pursuit on the switch, letting your Gyarados or Infernape sweep with their counter eliminated.</p>
<p>Weavile's STAB Ice-type attacks allow it to easily OHKO any Dragon-type threatening a sweep, with the exception of Kingdra. Ice Shard is the preferred option on this set, as it handles both Choice Scarf Flygon and Dracon Dance Salamence regardless of speed. It also kills off Aerodactyl, one of the few Pokemon that naturally outspeeds Weavile. Brick Break OHKOs Tyranitar, whom Weavile can outspeed even after a Dragon Dance, as well as taking out Steel and Normal-types for super effective damage. Ice Punch takes the last slot, because it's a solid STAB attack that sends Grass and Flying-types running, and also can 2HKO Heracross. Night Slash is another option for the last slot, as it provides a stronger STAB attack than Pursuit and has good neutral coverage against Pokemon that you’ll be revenge-killing. Aerial Ace can be used, as it will OHKO Heracross and do more damage to most other Fighting-types. This set has dwindled in usage, for good reason. Weavile can't outpace the majority of OU's top threats, like Choice Scarf Heatran, and is easily picked off by Bullet Punch from Scizor.</p>
[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Night Slash
move 3: Ice Shard / Ice Punch
move 4: Brick Break
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Jolly
evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Weavile's combination of pace and power makes it an excellent candidate for sweeping late in the game, when Weavile's counters are weakened or gone altogether.</p>
<p>Night Slash is a great STAB move that hits most things neutral, and Brick Break lets Weavile handle Steel-types and Tyranitar. Ice Shard is generally a better option than Ice Punch because it OHKOs the same Pokemon, like Salamence, that you would be hitting with Ice Punch, but allows Weavile to always strike first. It will also let you outspeed and OHKO extremely fast Pokemon like Jolteon, whom you might otherwise lose to with Ice Punch. Still, Ice Punch is an option if you want a more powerful attack to use, espeically against bulky Ground-types like Hippopowdon who would take little </p>
<p>The item choice is somewhat difficult. Life Orb is a great option if you can predict what will come in well, but given the popularity of Stealth Rock, and Weavile's general fraility, it's not always the best choice. Expert Belt gives your attacks a little extra kick, but it's usually not needed, because anything hit with a Swords Dance boosted super effective attack is going down anyway. Lum Berry could also be used, as it will let you set up against something like Blissey who would Thunder Wave you, but it has little utility otherwise. Blackglasses and Nevermeltice are also decent options if you don't want Weavile to be taking recoil damage, yet would still like some power behind its low base power STAB attacks.</p>
[SET]
name: Anti-Lead
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Counter
move 4: Night Slash / Ice Punch
item: Focus Sash
nature: Hasty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the advent of Focus Sash abusing “suicide leads” that set up Stealth Rock and prevent opponents from doing the same, Weavile is one of the few leads that can combat this trend. Fake Out is the most important move on the set, as it allows Weavile to break the Focus Sashes of leads like Aerodactyl, Infernape, and Azelf, whilst keeping its own intact. Night Slash lets you finish off Azelf, while Ice Punch handles Aerodactyl.</p>
<p>The other half of the set, Taunt and Counter, allows Weavile to deal with slower, bulkier Pokemon like Bronzong. First, Taunt to prevent it from using Stealth Rock, Hypnosis, or Trick. Now that it's forced to attack you, Counter back the Gyro Ball for an OHKO. This strategy also works in situations like when facing a lead Gyarados who would normally Dragon Dance from the start, or against Tyranitar where you should probably use Counter before Taunt. This strategy is very risky, especially when facing dangerous leads like Infernape, but if you predict correctly the payoff is enormous.</p>
[Other Options]
<p>Punishment is useful for taking out Calm Minders like Slowbro and Jirachi, as it will do more than Night Slash after a few boosts. Assurance can also be used if you have Stealth Rock support, but Night Slash is generally the better choice. Stay away from using special attacks, because although Weavile gets Nasty Plot, it will never be doing much damage thanks to its terrible Special Attack stat. Focus Punch and Substitute can be used if you want Weavile to pack a more powerful Fighting-type move. Reflect can be used, but it has little utility on such a defensively challenged Pokemon.</p>
[EVs]
<p>Always use a +Speed nature, unless using a Choice Scarf, to take advantage of Weavile’s great Speed stat. Maxing Speed out isn’t needed, so just aim for 373 Speed (216 EVs) to outrun Dugtrio and Alakazam, and put the remaining EVs in HP. Those 40 EVs let Weavile survive an unboosted Flamethrower from Azelf and a Modest Choice Specs Surf from Starmie. Max Attack is a given, because Weavile needs all the power it can get.</p>
[Opinion]
<p>Weavile certainly isn’t winning any awards defensively, as it gets stripped of 25% every switch-in to Stealth Rock and has weaknesses to common attacking types like Rock, Fire, and Fighting. It is also easily walled, making it very hard to sweep with Weavile, and has very little sweeping potential late-game.</p>
<p>On the other hand, Weavile’s combination of Speed and Attack and useful STAB moves can be a great asset to many teams. Is Starmie causing you trouble? Pursuit it to death. Is Salamence threatening a sweep with Dragon Danced Outrages? Not with Weavile in the wings. Thanks to both STAB Ice Shard and Pursuit, Weavile is a true revenge killer.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Steel-types take Weavile’s attacks with ease. Forretress laughs at all of its attacks and can use Weavile’s Speed against it by firing off STAB Gyro Balls. Bronzong works in a similar way, though Night Slash does hit neutral. Metagross and Scizor can also switch in without trouble and OHKO Weavile with STAB Bullet Punches. Weezing can take Weavile's hits with ease, never being 2HKOed by a Choice Band Night Slash, and fire back a Will-O-Wisp or Fire Blast.</p>
<p>Gyarados is another good choice, as it can easily switch into Weavile thanks to Intimidate and OHKO with Stone Edge. Swampert can also come in on Weavile and 2HKO with Earthquake or Stone Edge, and OHKO with Hammer Arm.</p>
<p>Beware of random Choice Scarf Pokemon when using Weavile, especially Fighting-types like Heracross. Mach Punch ruins it as well, so watch out for common priority Fighting-types like Hitmontop. Hariyama is also dangerous, using Thick Fat and its typing to ruin both of Weavile's STABs, while threatening with Bullet Punch or Fighting-type attacks.</p>
Changes
- Removed 'Sub Punch'.
- Took out slashes for items in the 'Swords Dance' set.
- Added Bullet Punch Scizor to 'Counters'.
- Removed Garchomp and Deoxys-S references.
- Trimmed 'Revenge' set down to 3 paragraphs.
- Slashed Ice Punch / Night Slash not Ice Punch / Ice Shard in the 'Revenge' and 'Swords Dance' sets.
- Made 'Opinion' section more truthful about Weavile's problems in today's metagame.
- Added Weezing to the 'Counters' section.
http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/weavile
---
[SET]
name: Revenge Killer
move 1: Pursuit
move 2: Ice Shard
move 3: Brick Break
move 4: Ice Punch / Night Slash
item: Choice Band
nature: Jolly
evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>At first glance, this Weavile seems to be a generic Choice Bander, but this set functions as insurance against many of the metagame’s top threats. This is mostly thanks to Weavile’s STAB Pursuit, which OHKOes Azelf, Gengar, and Alakazam, even if they stay in. Starmie is also OHKOed by a Pursuit on the switch, letting your Gyarados or Infernape sweep with their counter eliminated.</p>
<p>Weavile's STAB Ice-type attacks allow it to easily OHKO any Dragon-type threatening a sweep, with the exception of Kingdra. Ice Shard is the preferred option on this set, as it handles both Choice Scarf Flygon and Dracon Dance Salamence regardless of speed. It also kills off Aerodactyl, one of the few Pokemon that naturally outspeeds Weavile. Brick Break OHKOs Tyranitar, whom Weavile can outspeed even after a Dragon Dance, as well as taking out Steel and Normal-types for super effective damage. Ice Punch takes the last slot, because it's a solid STAB attack that sends Grass and Flying-types running, and also can 2HKO Heracross. Night Slash is another option for the last slot, as it provides a stronger STAB attack than Pursuit and has good neutral coverage against Pokemon that you’ll be revenge-killing. Aerial Ace can be used, as it will OHKO Heracross and do more damage to most other Fighting-types. This set has dwindled in usage, for good reason. Weavile can't outpace the majority of OU's top threats, like Choice Scarf Heatran, and is easily picked off by Bullet Punch from Scizor.</p>
[SET]
name: Swords Dance
move 1: Swords Dance
move 2: Night Slash
move 3: Ice Shard / Ice Punch
move 4: Brick Break
item: Life Orb / Expert Belt
nature: Jolly
evs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Weavile's combination of pace and power makes it an excellent candidate for sweeping late in the game, when Weavile's counters are weakened or gone altogether.</p>
<p>Night Slash is a great STAB move that hits most things neutral, and Brick Break lets Weavile handle Steel-types and Tyranitar. Ice Shard is generally a better option than Ice Punch because it OHKOs the same Pokemon, like Salamence, that you would be hitting with Ice Punch, but allows Weavile to always strike first. It will also let you outspeed and OHKO extremely fast Pokemon like Jolteon, whom you might otherwise lose to with Ice Punch. Still, Ice Punch is an option if you want a more powerful attack to use, espeically against bulky Ground-types like Hippopowdon who would take little </p>
<p>The item choice is somewhat difficult. Life Orb is a great option if you can predict what will come in well, but given the popularity of Stealth Rock, and Weavile's general fraility, it's not always the best choice. Expert Belt gives your attacks a little extra kick, but it's usually not needed, because anything hit with a Swords Dance boosted super effective attack is going down anyway. Lum Berry could also be used, as it will let you set up against something like Blissey who would Thunder Wave you, but it has little utility otherwise. Blackglasses and Nevermeltice are also decent options if you don't want Weavile to be taking recoil damage, yet would still like some power behind its low base power STAB attacks.</p>
[SET]
name: Anti-Lead
move 1: Fake Out
move 2: Taunt
move 3: Counter
move 4: Night Slash / Ice Punch
item: Focus Sash
nature: Hasty
evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With the advent of Focus Sash abusing “suicide leads” that set up Stealth Rock and prevent opponents from doing the same, Weavile is one of the few leads that can combat this trend. Fake Out is the most important move on the set, as it allows Weavile to break the Focus Sashes of leads like Aerodactyl, Infernape, and Azelf, whilst keeping its own intact. Night Slash lets you finish off Azelf, while Ice Punch handles Aerodactyl.</p>
<p>The other half of the set, Taunt and Counter, allows Weavile to deal with slower, bulkier Pokemon like Bronzong. First, Taunt to prevent it from using Stealth Rock, Hypnosis, or Trick. Now that it's forced to attack you, Counter back the Gyro Ball for an OHKO. This strategy also works in situations like when facing a lead Gyarados who would normally Dragon Dance from the start, or against Tyranitar where you should probably use Counter before Taunt. This strategy is very risky, especially when facing dangerous leads like Infernape, but if you predict correctly the payoff is enormous.</p>
[Other Options]
<p>Punishment is useful for taking out Calm Minders like Slowbro and Jirachi, as it will do more than Night Slash after a few boosts. Assurance can also be used if you have Stealth Rock support, but Night Slash is generally the better choice. Stay away from using special attacks, because although Weavile gets Nasty Plot, it will never be doing much damage thanks to its terrible Special Attack stat. Focus Punch and Substitute can be used if you want Weavile to pack a more powerful Fighting-type move. Reflect can be used, but it has little utility on such a defensively challenged Pokemon.</p>
[EVs]
<p>Always use a +Speed nature, unless using a Choice Scarf, to take advantage of Weavile’s great Speed stat. Maxing Speed out isn’t needed, so just aim for 373 Speed (216 EVs) to outrun Dugtrio and Alakazam, and put the remaining EVs in HP. Those 40 EVs let Weavile survive an unboosted Flamethrower from Azelf and a Modest Choice Specs Surf from Starmie. Max Attack is a given, because Weavile needs all the power it can get.</p>
[Opinion]
<p>Weavile certainly isn’t winning any awards defensively, as it gets stripped of 25% every switch-in to Stealth Rock and has weaknesses to common attacking types like Rock, Fire, and Fighting. It is also easily walled, making it very hard to sweep with Weavile, and has very little sweeping potential late-game.</p>
<p>On the other hand, Weavile’s combination of Speed and Attack and useful STAB moves can be a great asset to many teams. Is Starmie causing you trouble? Pursuit it to death. Is Salamence threatening a sweep with Dragon Danced Outrages? Not with Weavile in the wings. Thanks to both STAB Ice Shard and Pursuit, Weavile is a true revenge killer.</p>
[Counters]
<p>Steel-types take Weavile’s attacks with ease. Forretress laughs at all of its attacks and can use Weavile’s Speed against it by firing off STAB Gyro Balls. Bronzong works in a similar way, though Night Slash does hit neutral. Metagross and Scizor can also switch in without trouble and OHKO Weavile with STAB Bullet Punches. Weezing can take Weavile's hits with ease, never being 2HKOed by a Choice Band Night Slash, and fire back a Will-O-Wisp or Fire Blast.</p>
<p>Gyarados is another good choice, as it can easily switch into Weavile thanks to Intimidate and OHKO with Stone Edge. Swampert can also come in on Weavile and 2HKO with Earthquake or Stone Edge, and OHKO with Hammer Arm.</p>
<p>Beware of random Choice Scarf Pokemon when using Weavile, especially Fighting-types like Heracross. Mach Punch ruins it as well, so watch out for common priority Fighting-types like Hitmontop. Hariyama is also dangerous, using Thick Fat and its typing to ruin both of Weavile's STABs, while threatening with Bullet Punch or Fighting-type attacks.</p>
Fixed, sorry, I was thinking about something else.
Both of those were taken from the previous analysis. Fixed.
EDIT: Somebody capitalize the 'F' in full and the 'R' in revamp, please. ; )
Is Aerial Ace really worth the additional paragraph here? I assume you've just copied it over from the old analysis which was written when the metagame revolved around Heracross but that really isn't the case anymore (not to mention CB Ice Punch deals up to 85% to a 4/0 Heracross).
Also, I've always found Ice Punch/Ice Shard/Pursuit/Brick Break to be more useful than Ice Shard/Night Slash/Pursuit/Brick Break. Night Slash is only really better than Pursuit against something like Cresselia whereas Ice Punch gives you a solid STAB option that OHKO's a surprising amount of shit. Ice Shard is really essential with all the DDMence around so I'd rather the slash here was Ice Punch / Night Slash if anybody else agrees?
Also, I've always found Ice Punch/Ice Shard/Pursuit/Brick Break to be more useful than Ice Shard/Night Slash/Pursuit/Brick Break. Night Slash is only really better than Pursuit against something like Cresselia whereas Ice Punch gives you a solid STAB option that OHKO's a surprising amount of shit. Ice Shard is really essential with all the DDMence around so I'd rather the slash here was Ice Punch / Night Slash if anybody else agrees?
Just some changes to be made. I also agree with Lee as to Night Slash / Ice Punch. Ice Shard is a must.
I was wondering if an Adamant Choice Scarf set was viable? You can use it to kill Modest Choice Scarf Gengar, in addition to many other things. Unfortunately you don't outspeed Timid ScarfGar, by 2 points.
[Revenge Killer]
Also, I don't know other people's opinions on this, but the anti-lead Weavile I've always seen being used is this one:
Weavile @ Life Orb
Jolly
40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
- Fake Out
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Brick Break
Fake Out vs 0/0 Azelf: 24.7 - 29.2%
Pursuit vs non-switching Azelf: 74.2 - 87.3%
That's an 87.5% chance to KO Azelf with the combination of Fake Out and Pursuit, if it doesn't switch. If it does switch then it's an obvious guaranteed OHKO.
Fake Out vs 4/0 Aerodactyl: 12.6 - 14.9%
Ice Shard vs 4/0 Aerodactyl: 76.2 - 90.1%
Low chance for a KO with Fake Out + Ice Shard, thus preventing rocks from going up.
Brick Break OHKOes Tyranitar.
I'm not saying this set is better at all, I'm just saying it's the one I've seen more of, and so wanted to point it out.
Also, I don't know other people's opinions on this, but the anti-lead Weavile I've always seen being used is this one:
Weavile @ Life Orb
Jolly
40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
- Fake Out
- Ice Shard
- Pursuit
- Brick Break
Fake Out vs 0/0 Azelf: 24.7 - 29.2%
Pursuit vs non-switching Azelf: 74.2 - 87.3%
That's an 87.5% chance to KO Azelf with the combination of Fake Out and Pursuit, if it doesn't switch. If it does switch then it's an obvious guaranteed OHKO.
Fake Out vs 4/0 Aerodactyl: 12.6 - 14.9%
Ice Shard vs 4/0 Aerodactyl: 76.2 - 90.1%
Low chance for a KO with Fake Out + Ice Shard, thus preventing rocks from going up.
Brick Break OHKOes Tyranitar.
I'm not saying this set is better at all, I'm just saying it's the one I've seen more of, and so wanted to point it out.
Not trying to rush the process, but for the Swords Dance set I recommend giving Item mentions to Expert Belt, Blackglasses, NevermeltIce, and Lum Berry. Weavile doesn't need to be on a move timer, especially versus those Steel Steel Dragon Dragon Dragon teams... Lum Berry is also fantastic for pokemon like Blissey if you want to set up.
This is misleading to an extent. While Ice Punch certainly defeats Aerodactyl in one fell swoop (after its sash is broken), Weavile can't out speed Aerodactyl. Therefore, it will have done its job before departing, which is to set up Stealth Rock
I'm pretty sure Salamence outspeeds and OHKOs Weavile anyway with Outrage after a Dragon Dance, unless you have Ice Shard.
That is why it is listed as a primary option in the 'Revenge Killer' set. That and the popularity of Scarf Flygon.
outspeeds > outspeed
Fixed up an awkward part or two in the CB set.
Anti-Lead set had a bit of awkward wording.
You use too many comma's xD I took a couple out.
Not too much else wrong, I fixed a few other things though.
I don't really like the mention of Swampert using Stone Edge or Hammer Arm.. you should probably just mention that the likes of Gyarados and Swampert are good counters in general.
Oh, and I did it like that so you can just copy and paste the whole thing, rather than file through for each mistake.
Would a Life Orb (Hail Team) Weavile with Blizzard score any KOs that Ice Punch/Shard wouldn't? 245 Special Attack= Neutral nature + Life Orb.
The advantage would be a surprise factor, Weavile's Speed (the fastest Ice-type/STAB Blizzard User), and hitting physical walls that have a weak Special Defense and are weak to Ice (Gliscor, Hippowdon, Donphan), for a better-hit 1-2KO.
Also Bulky Intimidators like Bulky Salamence could be surprised and KOed.
*I am aware it says not to use Special Attacks, but I am simply curious for what Weavile could hit harder than its other Ice Moves.
The advantage would be a surprise factor, Weavile's Speed (the fastest Ice-type/STAB Blizzard User), and hitting physical walls that have a weak Special Defense and are weak to Ice (Gliscor, Hippowdon, Donphan), for a better-hit 1-2KO.
Also Bulky Intimidators like Bulky Salamence could be surprised and KOed.
*I am aware it says not to use Special Attacks, but I am simply curious for what Weavile could hit harder than its other Ice Moves.
The only notable thing about Blizzard is that you can potentially 2HKO 252 HP / 0 SpD Skarmory. However, you will need a significant investment in Special Attack EVs in order to do so. Otherwise, it isn't very useful as Choice Banded Ice Punch will still 2HKO Hippowdon (who will get rid of your hail and make Blizzard less accurate) and Donphan and OHKO Salamence and Gliscor. I would say Other Options at best.
Should Weezing get a mention in the counters list because of W-o-W/Flamethrower and Pain Split?
As gimmicky as this sounds, I think Reflect should get some type of mention, in the other options on the anti-lead set. I've even tried it out with some sucsess; Reflect gives a member on Weavile's team some type of support after it goes down (which it will do quickly of course), rather than dying at the hands of a Pokemon who outpredicts your Counter/Taunt/Fake Out and attacks, switches out or uses a Special attack; Tyranitar, Infernape, Bronzong and Gyarados are prime examples of this, Infernape being the most fearful with all of the Vacuum Wave-Endeavor leads I've been seeing (Vacuum Wave has a greater prioriity than Fake Out) and the fact stands that Infernape resists all of Weavile's STAB moves :/. Also, if Weavile manages to take a Physical attack with Reflect up (which is very likely against most leads), there's a nice chance that it can be used later against another threat like Azelf, Cresselia and Latias.
However, I am aware that Reflect defeats the whole purpose of the Focus Sash :/. But, considering Sandstorm, Weavile's ablility to take a Physical hit behind Reflect but not a Special one, its high Speed and Trick users as leads, Reflect might have some type of use.
Anyway, here's a small scenario I managed to get together, showing how Reflect is actually of some use:
Weavile switches in
Bronzong switches in
Weavile used Fake Out
Bronzong flinched!
From this point, it's pretty obvious what will happen next, Taunt to prevent Stealth Rock or, rarely, a Swords Dance.
Weavile used Taunt
Bronzong used Gyro Ball
Weavile lost 100% of its HP
Weavile hung on with its Focus Sash
Bronzong switches out to Lucario
Weavile used Night Slash
Lucario lost 10% of is HP (if that >_>)
Lucario used Extremespeed
Weavile fainted
Gyarados switches in
Gyarados (opponent's) switches in
Gyarados used Dragon Dance
Gyarados switches out to Swampert
Gyarados (O) used Stone Edge
Swampert lost 12% of its health!
Gyarados lost 10% of its health!
Gyarados used Taunt
Swampert can't use Roar after Taunt!
Gyarados switches in
Gyarados (O) used Dragon Dance
Gyarados (O) used Stone Edge
Gyarados fainted
Swampert switches in
Gyarados runs ramapnt for a while
If the first Gyarados used Taunt in this case, Gyarados (O) would've been at a slight advantage with a Dragon Dance under its belt while the first Gyarados is at +0 Attack and +1 Speed.
Reflect over Counter, now:
Weavile switches in
Bronzong switches in
Weavile used Fake Out
Bronzong flinched!
Weavile used Taunt
Bronzong used Gyro Ball
Weavile lost 100% of its HP
Weavile hung on with its Focus Sash
Bronzong switches out to Lucario
Weavile used Reflect
Lucario used Extremespeed
Weavile fainted
Now, Weavile has a Reflect up and its job is done, it can faint with no problem.
Gyarados switches in
Gyarados (opponent's) switches in
Gyarados used Dragon Dance
Now, the opposing Gyarados isn't doing much damage, anyway while the opponent is forced to either Dragon Dance, Stone Edge or Taunt, giving something like Zapdos a clear switch in.
Zapdos switched in
Gyarados (O) used Dragon Dance
Gyarados (O) used Stone Edge
Zapdos lost 50% of its health!
Gyarados lost 10% of its health
Zapdos used Thunderbolt
Gyarados lost 90% of its health!
Gyarados fainted
Gyarados is down, Zapdos can Roost its health back and Reflect is still in play meaning that Luacrio won't be doing any big damage to Zapdos while it either KOs with Heat Have or, Roost its HP back and/or have Swampert switch in.
In this scenario, Reflect helped Zapdos survive a fatal blow from Stone Edge while giving a sort of last minute support to the team. Weavile's down, it did its job of keeping the Stealth Rock from going down while giving some well needed support in the long run.
However, I am aware that Reflect defeats the whole purpose of the Focus Sash :/. But, considering Sandstorm, Weavile's ablility to take a Physical hit behind Reflect but not a Special one, its high Speed and Trick users as leads, Reflect might have some type of use.
Anyway, here's a small scenario I managed to get together, showing how Reflect is actually of some use:
Weavile switches in
Bronzong switches in
Weavile used Fake Out
Bronzong flinched!
From this point, it's pretty obvious what will happen next, Taunt to prevent Stealth Rock or, rarely, a Swords Dance.
Weavile used Taunt
Bronzong used Gyro Ball
Weavile lost 100% of its HP
Weavile hung on with its Focus Sash
Bronzong switches out to Lucario
Weavile used Night Slash
Lucario lost 10% of is HP (if that >_>)
Lucario used Extremespeed
Weavile fainted
Gyarados switches in
Gyarados (opponent's) switches in
Gyarados used Dragon Dance
Gyarados switches out to Swampert
Gyarados (O) used Stone Edge
Swampert lost 12% of its health!
Gyarados lost 10% of its health!
Gyarados used Taunt
Swampert can't use Roar after Taunt!
Gyarados switches in
Gyarados (O) used Dragon Dance
Gyarados (O) used Stone Edge
Gyarados fainted
Swampert switches in
Gyarados runs ramapnt for a while
If the first Gyarados used Taunt in this case, Gyarados (O) would've been at a slight advantage with a Dragon Dance under its belt while the first Gyarados is at +0 Attack and +1 Speed.
Reflect over Counter, now:
Weavile switches in
Bronzong switches in
Weavile used Fake Out
Bronzong flinched!
Weavile used Taunt
Bronzong used Gyro Ball
Weavile lost 100% of its HP
Weavile hung on with its Focus Sash
Bronzong switches out to Lucario
Weavile used Reflect
Lucario used Extremespeed
Weavile fainted
Now, Weavile has a Reflect up and its job is done, it can faint with no problem.
Gyarados switches in
Gyarados (opponent's) switches in
Gyarados used Dragon Dance
Now, the opposing Gyarados isn't doing much damage, anyway while the opponent is forced to either Dragon Dance, Stone Edge or Taunt, giving something like Zapdos a clear switch in.
Zapdos switched in
Gyarados (O) used Dragon Dance
Gyarados (O) used Stone Edge
Zapdos lost 50% of its health!
Gyarados lost 10% of its health
Zapdos used Thunderbolt
Gyarados lost 90% of its health!
Gyarados fainted
Gyarados is down, Zapdos can Roost its health back and Reflect is still in play meaning that Luacrio won't be doing any big damage to Zapdos while it either KOs with Heat Have or, Roost its HP back and/or have Swampert switch in.
In this scenario, Reflect helped Zapdos survive a fatal blow from Stone Edge while giving a sort of last minute support to the team. Weavile's down, it did its job of keeping the Stealth Rock from going down while giving some well needed support in the long run.
Reflect has absolutely no utility on the lead set and even suggesting it demonstrates you don't understand the purpose of the lead. Additionally, where did you get the idea that Fake Out has "less" priority than Vacuum Wave? This is just blatantly false.
Exactly what is Reflect even going to be used over? Fake Out / Taunt / Counter / Attack. Every single move is absolutely necessary on the set otherwise it completely loses it's purpose. You need Counter, you need Taunt, you need Fake Out - so are you seriously suggesting that Weavile go without any Attack move?
In short, just no.
Exactly what is Reflect even going to be used over? Fake Out / Taunt / Counter / Attack. Every single move is absolutely necessary on the set otherwise it completely loses it's purpose. You need Counter, you need Taunt, you need Fake Out - so are you seriously suggesting that Weavile go without any Attack move?
In short, just no.
From my knowledge, the purpose of this lead would be help deal with the common leads in the metagame. However, Reflect just seemed like a somewhat good option to get a mention since Weavile could really sacrifice a move like Counter for some type of support, just as an anti lead breloom provides sleep support and an anti lead spiritomb provides burn support.
Forgot that they were the same priority, doesn't seem like a big deal, anyway I highly doubt that it would matter anyway seeing as how Weavile would ust die to Fire Blast, Close Combat and Vacuum Wave while it prevents Infernape from setting up Stealth Rock before it switches out and comes back in :s.
If you read a bit closer,
I only said that it should get a mention in the other options, not slashed on the set itself.Me said:
Also, I did forget to mention that I used Reflect over Counter.
Going back to what I just said, I only said it should get some type of mention in the other options on the anti-lead set.
Actually, Counter isn't really all that needed. Counter is one of those moves that really don't function well if the surprise is blown too early meaning if Weavile decides to use Counter at the wrong time, it won't really work very often seeing as how its opponent knows to take away its Focus Sash and attack then, ...or they would just use a Special attack from the start :s.
This is my final response, I'm not going to go back and forth on this.
This further proves you don't understand the point. Also, anti-lead Breloom is not on-site (take a look for yourself). It was deleted some time ago for being out of date. And the Spiritomb set you are talking about isn't even an anti-lead. It's just a lead. There is a difference between something being designed as a lead and something being an anti-lead. Counter serves a specific goal on the set, if you drop it for Reflect - then what was the point of even Taunting that Bronzong? Taunting that Hippowdon? Taunting that Swampert etc.
My reading comprehension is fine, thank you. Other Options is for viable alternatives to certain moves. My previous post was making the point that if you remove any of the moves for Reflect, the set is no longer viable and completely pointless. That's why I'm not going to put it in Other Options.
Actually you do need Counter, otherwise, what was the point of Taunting that wall? Counter-Sash is basically the point of the set.
Read the current analysis.
darkerkrai said:
This further proves you don't understand the point. Also, anti-lead Breloom is not on-site (take a look for yourself). It was deleted some time ago for being out of date. And the Spiritomb set you are talking about isn't even an anti-lead. It's just a lead. There is a difference between something being designed as a lead and something being an anti-lead. Counter serves a specific goal on the set, if you drop it for Reflect - then what was the point of even Taunting that Bronzong? Taunting that Hippowdon? Taunting that Swampert etc.
My reading comprehension is fine, thank you. Other Options is for viable alternatives to certain moves. My previous post was making the point that if you remove any of the moves for Reflect, the set is no longer viable and completely pointless. That's why I'm not going to put it in Other Options.
Actually you do need Counter, otherwise, what was the point of Taunting that wall? Counter-Sash is basically the point of the set.
Read the current analysis.
Eh, I guess I'll just change my suggestion to something like having the other options give a mention to Reflect but it's difficult to find a slot for it, then?
I think the Opinion section should be rewritten to emphasize the troubles Weavile faces. It's not the great revenge killer it once was, and I think that the Opinion should reflect that. I mean, SR is on almost every team and it's insanely easy to wall, not to mention that it's really only useful for its guaranteed kill on Outraging Dragons and of course, Pursuit. Mamoswine does the whole dragon slaying business a lot better since it poses a much greater offensive threat and isn't SR weak, and there are honestly better Pursuiters. Granted, Weavile is the only Pokemon that can do both effectively, but I don't think that turns it into a "great" revenge killer by any stretch of the imagination, and it certainly isn't the most likely Pokemon to mess up the opponent's strategy since it doesn't pose much an offensive threat. Besides, any good offensive team is going to prepare for revenge killers anyways.
I mean, the current one isn't bad or anything, I just feel that it should maybe cut down a little less on the hype (like the whole messing up your opponent's strategy bit) and emphasize Weavile's troubles a little more. It's not a terrible Pokemon or anything, but it's not as good as the opinion says, can we all agree on that? And yeah, I understand that it is an opinion after all, but every good competitive battler I know does not see Weavile as great or anywhere close. I don't think it should trash Weavile either though like it's Luvdisc's analysis or something, since anything with Ice Shard and Pursuit can be damn useful.
Either way, the rest is a job well done. Nice work.
EDIT: New one is better.
I mean, the current one isn't bad or anything, I just feel that it should maybe cut down a little less on the hype (like the whole messing up your opponent's strategy bit) and emphasize Weavile's troubles a little more. It's not a terrible Pokemon or anything, but it's not as good as the opinion says, can we all agree on that? And yeah, I understand that it is an opinion after all, but every good competitive battler I know does not see Weavile as great or anywhere close. I don't think it should trash Weavile either though like it's Luvdisc's analysis or something, since anything with Ice Shard and Pursuit can be damn useful.
Either way, the rest is a job well done. Nice work.
EDIT: New one is better.