"What can it do that SDLuke can't?"

[Lee]

Earlier in DP, Choice Specs Lucario was a great special sweeper, easily smashing through all of the walls that DP had to offer. His great resistances and ability to shrug off most forms of passive damage offered many switch-ins and from there his raw power and great coverage caused real problems for any opponent that couldn't outpredict him. It was the premier Lucario set and was rightfully feared.

Lucario @ Choice Specs
Inner Focus
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature (-Atk, + SpA)
- Aura Sphere
- Shadow Ball
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Vacuum Wave / Psychic

But now, less than 6% of Lucarios are SpecsLukes. To put that into perspective, if SpecsLuke was a standalone Pokemon (and we assume that those 6% listed as carrying an "other item" are indeed all SpecsLukes) then he would have placed at No.104 in September, barely seeing more use in OU than Toxicroak and Cloyster.

Anyone who has played Pokemon in the last year will tell you what caused this fall from grace. Swords Dance Lucario burst onto the scene.

Lucario @ Life Orb
Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe (30 HP IV)
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SpA)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Extremespeed
- Crunch / Ice Punch / Stone Edge / Bullet Punch

Possibly one of the most dangerous sets in Pokemon today, this pushed SpecsLuke into obscurity seemingly overnight. As a standalone Pokemon, SDLuke ranked in at No.7 in September.

So the question here is

I never liked specsluke the few times I've used it, and honestly, what can it do that sdluke can't?

A question that I've seen asked so many times in the RMT forum. Anytime a user posts a team containing SpecsLuke, somebody will often reccomend he swaps it for SDLuke with little justification beyond "SDLuke is better." Few would argue that SDLuke is better, but does this mean that SpecsLuke is now obsolete? Hopefully I can convince you all otherwise and we can start to see a few more Aura Spheres out there!

#1 Unpredictablity

Nobody expects the SpecsLuke inquisition; even the finest and most cautious of battlers will expect a SDLuke as soon as they see Lucario. Unpredictability can often be overated, but the Pokemon that switch into Lucario are easily crippled or killed by an attack from SpecsLuke.

The following Pokemon are often used as SDLuke counters.

- Gliscor
- Hippowdon
- Weezing
- Salamence
- Gyarados
- Zapdos
- Tangrowth
- Spiritomb

Spiritomb is the only Pokemon on that list who can switch into SpecsLuke and SR without losing his life or at least a sizable chunk of health.

Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Gliscor = 167.23% - 196.89%
Psychic vs 252/0 Gliscor = 53.67% - 62.99%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Gliscor = 47.74% - 56.21%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Gliscor = 40.11% - 47.18%

Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Hippowdon = 72.86% - 85.71%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Hippowdon = 70.00% - 82.38%
Psychic vs 252/0 Hippowdon = 46.67% - 54.76%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Hippowdon = 41.43% - 48.81%

Psychic vs 252/0 Weezing = 120.06% - 141.02%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Weezing = 53.29% - 62.87%
Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Weezing = 46.71% - 55.09%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Weezing = 44.91% - 52.99%

Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Salamence = 142.89% - 168.02%
Psychic vs 252/0 Salamence = 45.69% - 53.81%
Psychic vs 4/0 Salamence = 54.22% - 63.86%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Salamence = 40.61% - 47.97%
Shadow Ball vs 4/0 Salamence = 48.19% - 56.93%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Salamence = 34.26% - 40.36%
Aura Sphere vs 4/0 Salamence = 40.66% - 47.89%

Psychic vs 216/0 Gyarados = 38.96% - 45.71%
Psychic vs 4/0 Gyarados = 45.18% - 53.01%
Aura Sphere vs 4/0 Gyarados = 33.73% - 39.76%

Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Zapdos = 66.67% - 78.39
Psychic vs 252/0 Zapdos = 42.71% - 50.26%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Zapdos = 38.02% - 44.53%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Zapdos = 32.03% - 37.50%

Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Tangrowth = 99.75% - 117.33%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Tangrowth = 96.04% - 112.87%
Psychic vs 252/0 Tangrowth = 63.86% - 75.25%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Tangrowth = 56.93% - 67.08%

#2 Wall-breaking

Stall's a bitch isn't it? If only there was a Pokemon who was immune to Sandstorm and Toxic Spikes, took minimal damage from Stealth Rock and could beat the shit out of those pesky stall teams. Hmm...

Wall-breaking has always been SpecsLuke's speciality and it's the reason that so many people fell in love with him many, many months ago. As you can see from the above calculations, SpecsLuke has no problem smashing through physical walls. But what about special walls, I hear you say! Well, they're not much of a problem either. SpecsLuke is a little pissed that Blissey has changed her EV spread and nature, robbing him of that precious 2HKO but I would be very hesitant to say that she walls him when even with Calm and 176 SpD EVs she's still losing up to 50% of her health from Aura Sphere.


The fact here is, Spiritomb is the only Pokemon in OU who can switch into SpecsLuke when SR is on the field without a concerned expression on his face. And it should probably be noted that the standard 252 HP / 252 Def Spiritomb loses up to 48% of his health from a Shadow Ball so he better be packing SpD EVs!

Random calculations vs Pokemon commonly seen in stall teams

Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Forretress = 95.48% - 112.43%
Aura Sphere vs 252/176 Calm Forretress = 68.08% - 80.23%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Forretress = 28.25% - 33.33%

Psychic vs 252/176 Calm Tentacruel = 55.77% - 65.66%

Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Celebi = 66.09% - 77.72%
Hidden Power [Ice] vs 252/0 Celebi = 57.92% - 68.32%
Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Celebi = 27.72% - 32.67%

Shadow Ball vs 252/4 Dusknoir = 70.41% - 82.65%

Shadow Ball vs 20/0 Cresselia = 55.18% - 65.03%
Shadow Ball vs 252/4 Cresselia = 47.97% - 56.53%

Aura Sphere vs 252/0 Swampert = 60.40% - 71.04%
Shadow Ball vs 252/0 Swampert = 35.89% - 42.33%

SDLuke is no stranger to wall breaking either, being able to smash through the majority of physical walls after a SD, but any stall team worth it's salt knows this and will often be very anti-SDLuke. It's not uncommon for them to have two counters for SDLuke and perhaps some other form of "check" against him. Life Orb hurts him in this regard too, especially if Spikes are around. I know which variant of Lucario I'd rather have on my side if I was going up against a stall team.

#3 "Luring"

An interesting thing to note here is that SDLuke's counters overlap quite neatly with Scizor's counters. If Lucario can pose as a Swords Dancer and lure out Pokemon like Salamence, Zapdos or Weezing then he has just made Scizor's life a hell of a lot easier by crippling or killing the opponent's main defence against Scizor.

Another interesting thing I found out in my playtesting is that Choice Specs Lucario is simply fantastic at killing Bulky Fighters such as Hariyama and Machamp. If you can get in on them in once piece (Ice Punches, Stone Edges, Paybacks and the like) then the musclebound meatheads often think "Great, I'll just nail him with a STAB attack and get him out of my way." The moment of silence when Psychic easily OHKO's them both is just priceless. You'd think that the opponent would think something is fishy when Lucario comes in on a Bulky Fighter but I've honestly yet to see one of them switch out. Ask yourself; would you switch out your Hariyama? Or would you just absorb the expected unboosted Close Combat/stay in on the expected SD and KO him now, rather than let him become a menace in the late game? Excellent for clearing the way for Tyranitar or Weavile (or just killing off Machamp easily...seriously, who actually likes fighting Machamp, ugh).

#4 Coverage

SDLuke has a bad case of four-moveslot syndrome. Because he is forced to carry Swords Dance, he can only use three attacks which pretty much condemns him to being walled by a few common Pokemon depending on his choice. If he opts for the standard Swords Dance/Close Combat/Extremespeed/Crunch then he will run into problems against Pokemon such as Gliscor, Zapdos, Gyarados, Salamence and Nidoqueen. If he goes down the route of Swords Dance/Close Combat/Extremespeed/Ice Punch then he will inevitably run into problems against the likes of Slowbro, Cresselia, the new Rotom formes and Dusknoir. Thankfully SpecsLuke has no such problems as the Choice Specs allow him to use all four-moveslots granting him wonderful coverage.

~-~-~

To wrap this up before it gets tl;dr. Yes, SDLuke, on an even playing field is the better Pokemon. I need to emphasise that; I'm not here to bullshit you guys. Swords Dance/Extremespeed is one of the best combos in the game. He doesn't require the nigh-telepathic levels of prediction that SpecsLuke does. He can sweep teams in the blink of an eye. But there's no way SpecsLuke deserves to be forgotten because of it. We're talking about a Pokemon who is almost impossible to wall, has no shortage of chances to switch-in and is about as anti-metagame as it gets. Let me put it this way; of the top 40 Pokemon used on the OU ladder last month, SpecsLuke OHKO's 22 of them. Assuming standard spreads, he 2HKO's 17 of them (Stealth Rock being factored in here which isn't exactly unreasonable). Calm Blissey is the only Pokemon who can avoid being one-or-two hit KO'd by a good prediction...barely. I can't accept that a Pokemon like that is used the same amount as Toxicroak...the only explanation for it is that we've forgotten what he is capable of so hopefully this has functioned as a little reminder.

The other explanation is that we're all using SDLuke on all our teams so species clause prevents us using SpecsLuke. :cloud:

tl;dr Give SpecsLuke a go sometime. There are few things scarier than a SpecsLuke in the hands of somebody who knows how to use it.

Go ahead and tear my argument apart, share your experiences with SpecsLuke or maybe even help me out here.

 

[MetaNite]

The problem I always have with SpecsLuke is never know what's coming out, unless it's really late game... but by then the cats probably out of the bag.

You can't predict that the BL Hariyama is going to switch in. It's quite hard to know what's coming.

One wall you forgot to mention, is Dusknoir. My favorite. Immune to Aura Sphere, and not as common as let's say Gliscor. It's a mixed wall, taking minimum damage from anything except Shadow Ball (or flash cannon). It also packs EQ to KO, and I've seen more with it since Heatrans switching in to take the Will-o-Wisp everytime.

Good arguement though, if only he could switch attacks and not be walled by Blissey he'd be golden.

 

[Shinryu]

Imo, the main problem is that he's just too slow. 279 from maxed Modest still isn't outspeeding Mence (who usually runs 280 minimum for these reasons), (formerly) Garchomp, and a lot of other Pokemon if you mispredict and get locked into an unfavorable move. Don't get me wrong, I think SpecsLuke can be deadly in the right hands, but he requires too much prediction for the "average" player, whereas SD Luke abides by the KISS theory and is more popular. Plus, your unpredictability is pretty much gone once you throw out the first Aura Sphere or Vacuum Wave, from there it's pretty obvious what you're running.

 

[seds]

I love Specsluke, it's the only one I really use. It's nearly impossible to use effectively though until you know a little bit about your opponent's team, but if you predict properly, it can 2HKO almost anything. It's an amazing pokemon.

Now that Scizor has Bullet Punch, people should start asking themselves "What can SDluke do that Scizor can't?"

Answer: Not much.

 

[Tangerine]

One thing about Specsluke is why it always ran Modest - it can seriously get away with running Timid and the only KO it'll probably miss out on is Blissey, and that +Speed actually helps you against SD Lukes (Vaccum Wave??!?!?) and other stuff that stops at 280.

Plus, your unpredictability is pretty much gone once you throw out the first Aura Sphere or Vacuum Wave, from there it's pretty obvious what you're running.

You assume that the only reason people used SpecsLuke to begin with was its unpredictability which is far from true. It's like Heracross. You know what it is going to do the second it comes out but you have to pray that you are making the right switch in unless you run some ridiculous dedicated counter for it - but unlike Heracross, not many things can actually "wall" Specsluke save Calm Blissey and... I guess Spiritomb!

It's not just Specsluke either - I see that Heracross usage has dwindled quite a bit from early DP. I think the flaw has to do with the fact that they are choice banded - and lack of a Dragon STAB with awesome speed like Garchomp means that after they nail the Pokemon that switches in, they are helpless against something that comes in to set up on them - meaning that you gave your opponent a turn to set up and now you're on the defensive all of a sudden. Considering how offensive DP has gotten since Early DP, I think this might be the reason why SpecsLuke and Heracross usage both dwindled down. Choice Items are far too restrictive, unless you're up against Stall Teams.

 

[Scofield]

Heh, my quote is used in the topic. The problem I had the most with specsluke was prediction, and I'm not even a bad predictor. Say, the opponent predicts a physical luke, and goes straight to gliscor. Gliscor resists aura sphere (naturally, I'd go for the strongest stab move first rather than randomly spamming an hp ice) and I can't 2hko it and there's no way I'm staying in on gliscor. I then have to switch out, I gain nothing, and I've lost my entire element of suprise when it comes to specs luke, making it thateasier for the opponent to predict later. The same happens against spiritomb, dusknoir, weezing, and even salamence, gyarados, gengar. Once the suprise is gone, I just don't see specslucario as nearly as effective.

 

[Scofield]

Scizor doesn't exactly outclass sdluke. Scizor can dent but can't ohko hippo, fort, skarm, pert, all of which are quite common on stall teams. Scizor might be a better pure late game sweeper, but midmatch, luke is better.

Of course, that isn't what this thread is about >_>

Edit: Also, luke can beat zapdos with ice punch now.

 

[ChronoSquare]

Imo, the main problem is that he's just too slow. 279 from maxed Modest still isn't outspeeding Mence (who usually runs 280 minimum for these reasons), (formerly) Garchomp, and a lot of other Pokemon if you mispredict and get locked into an unfavorable move. Don't get me wrong, I think SpecsLuke can be deadly in the right hands, but he requires too much prediction for the "average" player, whereas SD Luke abides by the KISS theory and is more popular. Plus, your unpredictability is pretty much gone once you throw out the first Aura Sphere or Vacuum Wave, from there it's pretty obvious what you're running.

This.
In playing for a little while in-game with actual Specsluke (although granted that was over a year ago when DP was still new, I didn't even think about going for HP Ice for coverage), I often found myself too slow for my liking. Sure it did a good chunk of damage if it was neutral, but a lot of the time I lost because Lucario was going second instead of first.

...
All this Lucario talk of owning people is making me want to play Brawl. :/

 

[sanjay120]

One thing about Specsluke is why it always ran Modest - it can seriously get away with running Timid and the only KO it'll probably miss out on is Blissey, and that +Speed actually helps you against SD Lukes (Vaccum Wave??!?!?) and other stuff that stops at 280.

This seems to be true, just looking at the above calcs.

Heh, my quote is used in the topic. The problem I had the most with specsluke was prediction, and I'm not even a bad predictor. Say, the opponent predicts a physical luke, and goes straight to gliscor. Gliscor resists aura sphere (naturally, I'd go for the strongest stab move first rather than randomly spamming an hp ice) and I can't 2hko it and there's no way I'm staying in on gliscor. I then have to switch out, I gain nothing, and I've lost my entire element of suprise when it comes to specs luke, making it thateasier for the opponent to predict later. The same happens against spiritomb, dusknoir, weezing, and even salamence, gyarados, gengar. Once the suprise is gone, I just don't see specslucario as nearly as effective.

Besides unpredictability being only one thing that makes Specsluke great, you can switch Luke in and then out the next turn as they switch in their counter to scout it. I do this all the time since I suck at predicting.

 

[RaikouLover]

I always ran Timid Specs Luke as a check against Swords Dance Luke. It's amazing how many idiots leave their Jolly SD Lukes in ready to Close Combat me into oblivion and then quit when they die.

Another thing you forgot to mention is Dragon Pulse hits more neutrality and is an option over Hidden Power Ice. I used that to make sure I finished off Garchomp's that were stupidly locked into unboosted Outrages.

 

[bulbasauresrec]

Well it seems that SpecsLuke and SDLuke plays two different roles. It already has been mentioned that SpecsLuke is an immediate wallbreaker who doesnt need to waste a turn to statup while SDLuke is a sweeper who can function also as a wallbreaker once it gets the SD up.

Once the opponent knows you are Speced, they can easily switch in a resist but thats not the case for SDLuke.

 

[Bogmire]

I always ran Timid Specs Luke as a check against Swords Dance Luke. It's amazing how many idiots leave their Jolly SD Lukes in ready to Close Combat me into oblivion and then quit when they die.

Another thing you forgot to mention is Dragon Pulse hits more neutrality and is an option over Hidden Power Ice. I used that to make sure I finished off Garchomp's that were stupidly locked into unboosted Outrages.

why not use modest with vacuum wave?

 

[Sunday]

One good use I've found for SpecsLuke is softening up the Physical Walls who would usually switch into SDLuke early on so my Physical Sweepers can land 2HKO's on the switch later on. My first move is always to fire off a HP Ice, which as we've seen hits 5/8 of the Pokemon listed as "common SDLuke counters". Even if you do some measly amount of damage to, say Gyarados, you now know exactly what your opponent is running to counter SDLuke. You may have lost the element of surprise as to what type of Lucario you're running, but they've now revealed the only thing that's standing between you and, say, a Scizor sweep!

 

[Lee]

My first move is always to fire off a HP Ice, which as we've seen hits 5/8 of the Pokemon listed as "common SpecsLuke counters".

I assume you mean common SDLuke counters but heh, that was always my first attack too. It has the added bonus of doing just under 70% to Gengar switch ins too, which is nice.

On the note of Hidden Power, I was talking to Aldaron about this earlier and he said that Hidden Power Rock is worth considering as it scores super-effective hits on Zapdos and Salamence, as well as Gyarados. I'm not sure that I'd be willing to give up the coverage that HP Ice gives, but it should be noted that it can OHKO all three of those Pokemon after they've taken SR damage. Just throwing that out there for anyone who hates Gyarados.

 

[Shinryu]

You assume that the only reason people used SpecsLuke to begin with was its unpredictability which is far from true. It's like Heracross. You know what it is going to do the second it comes out but you have to pray that you are making the right switch in unless you run some ridiculous dedicated counter for it - but unlike Heracross, not many things can actually "wall" Specsluke save Calm Blissey and... I guess Spiritomb!

Actually, I didn't mean that people only used SpecsLuke for unpredictability, I was just saying that once you use Aura Sphere or Vacuum Wave, it's obvious that it is likely holding Specs because only about one other set might run those moves. The movepool for SpecsLuke isn't exactly large, so it is easy to determine what moves it's likely to have, and then plan accordingly once you've figured out it's holding Specs.

 

[sanjay120]

And the point is that unless you carry a somewhat specialized SpecsLuke counter you aren't going to have an easy time with it. Like Heracross. Sure, Gliscor, maybe Weezing, but how common are they anyways? Heracross rips through teams, predictable or not.

 

[Lee]

so it is easy to determine what moves it's likely to have, and then plan accordingly once you've figured out it's holding Specs.

Yes...and no. I'm interested as to what "plan accordingly" actually involves. Your only weapon against a SpecsLuke is the ability to outpredict/outguess your opponent or plain old damage limitation. So, you know that Lucario is holding Choice Specs and knows Aura Sphere/HP Ice/Shadow Ball/Psychic. He's just switched into your CBTyranitar's Crunch...now what?

Losing unpredictability isn't a big deal as he's still a very capable Pokemon without it...SDLuke doesn't even have unpredictability to begin with and he does just fine. It's not like a Choice Specs Weavile or something ridiculous that becomes completely useless once the cat gets out the bag.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Gliscor resists aura sphere (naturally, I'd go for the strongest stab move first rather than randomly spamming an hp ice) and I can't 2hko it and there's no way I'm staying in on gliscor. I then have to switch out, I gain nothing, and I've lost my entire element of suprise when it comes to specs luke, making it thateasier for the opponent to predict later. The same happens against spiritomb, dusknoir, weezing, and even salamence, gyarados, gengar. Once the suprise is gone, I just don't see specslucario as nearly as effective.

It's for this reason that for me, the calculations of interest are not the one's Lee listed, but the ones with less than ideal damage. How much does Aura sphere do to Gliscor, Cresselia, to Salamence? How much does Dark Pulse/Psychic, HP Ice do to Blissey? You're going to make mistakes, going to hit for "unideal damage," but when talking about a 4-attack pokemon, choiced or not, the best favor it can give me is by knocking out 30-40% damage hits even under un-ideal situations.

 

[Lee]

It's for this reason that for me, the calculations of interest are not the one's Lee listed, but the ones with less than ideal damage. How much does Aura sphere do to Gliscor, Cresselia, to Salamence? How much does Dark Pulse/Psychic, HP Ice do to Blissey? You're going to make mistakes, going to hit for "unideal damage," but when talking about a 4-attack pokemon, choiced or not, the best favor it can give me is by knocking out 30-40% damage hits even under un-ideal situations.

It's funny you should say that, as I had originally put in some unideal calculations but decided to remove them as it looked a little extraneous. Luckily I saved them so I've gone and updated the OP with a lot of calculations like Aura Sphere vs Gliscor and added some more Pokemon such as Celebi and Cresselia.

 

[Chou Toshio]

You're awesome Lee. Added calcs really show Lucario's use. Ok, yeah, it can kill gliscor with HP Ice. But what's really cool: Holy shit it hits 40% MINIMUM with Aura Sphere!! That's impressive.

Zap takes 32% Min from Aura Sphere! Meaning it's taking 50% each time it switches in on Luke with SR up. Also means it'll take 60%+ if it tries to roost in Lucario's face and mis-predicts the switch. xD

Weezing can be eating more than 50% from Aura Sphere. Some counter, right? xD

These are the calcs that show off it's worth imo.

 

[Chill]

The only Lucario I have used so far is specCario so I've seen what he does to pokemon like Salamence and Gliscor with Aura Sphere.

Something else I like to do once I've learned that the opposing Blissey is not carrying t-wave (or just take the risk) is to bring Lucario in. They switch expecting a physical version only to have to switch back to Bliss when they find out the're wrong. You basically end up getting in two free and powerful hits.

I'm also a big Togekiss user and baton passing a Nasty plot to Specscario is usually easy since most people will try to hit Togekiss with ice beam. He's also great at stopping Heatran and Tyranitar from sweeping you.

 

[Syberia]

I like bluffing Specsluke and running Expert Belt instead; it usually nabs at least one surprise kill when my opponent thinks I can't switch moves.

Aura Sphere
HP Ice
Psychic
Shadow Ball

It has a bit of trouble with Calm Blissey, but Blissey is rarely the first (or second) switch-in to Lucario.

 

[Articanus]

I find Vacuum wave to be the main reason to use SpecsLuke over SD Luke, as it is really cool for it to be a special priority move!!! >=D

It also is just cooler in general and doesn't have to take LO recoil after every attack, not to mention the horrendous defense drops!

 

[Thorns]

By posting this thread you have effectively raised the popularity of SpecsLuke, and it will see a lot more use, for sure.

I actually do not use SDLuke. If I can bring myself to use Lucario at all, it will have Specs on it.

 

[Shinryu]

Yes...and no. I'm interested as to what "plan accordingly" actually involves. Your only weapon against a SpecsLuke is the ability to outpredict/outguess your opponent or plain old damage limitation. So, you know that Lucario is holding Choice Specs and knows Aura Sphere/HP Ice/Shadow Ball/Psychic. He's just switched into your CBTyranitar's Crunch...now what?

Losing unpredictability isn't a big deal as he's still a very capable Pokemon without it...SDLuke doesn't even have unpredictability to begin with and he does just fine. It's not like a Choice Specs Weavile or something ridiculous that becomes completely useless once the cat gets out the bag.

Well, I guess it would depend on what each side has seen up to that point, if you have a sure-fire counter to Lucario, it'd be best to switch him in obviously. But I get your point...it'll just go into a lot of prediction wars trying to figure out what Lucario and you will do. I mean, SpecsLuke only runs about 5 or so different moves, but it's hard to guess what to throw in unless you have some rare Pokemon that resists or is neutral to all its moves (or a 252/252 Calm Blissey or something, lol).