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What is the best set for a Pokemon?

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Did we forget that tiers exist? Calling Vileplume a "worse Celebi/Blissey" ignores the fact that you can use Vileplume in a place where Celebi and Blissey don't exist, thus its "inferiority" is meaningless. Why would we use any water Pokemon that isn't Kyogre? Because Kyogre is banned.

Some Pokemon are doomed to be "inferior" to other Pokemon. There is a certain "luck of the draw" based on what Game Freak thinks is a good design for a Pokemon, and whether that design is effective vis-a-vis the OU (or uber) metagame. While I respect people like Nobie who find unique ways to use Pokemon like Whiscash, using the most "unique" set doesn't equate to using the "best" set - a point you admitted - and ultimately that means that, in the most competitive of arenas, there are going to be Pokemon that are, bluntly, useless.
 
rbygsc kid 251 said:
obi, I completely agree with you, but the fact of the matter is people will always be stubborn. I am a perfect example of this. Lets take the whole Salamance over Dragonite situation. Probably 90-97 out of 100 trainers are going to take Salamance. Why? Because he is better
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Since when is Salamence better than Dragonite? Salamence doesn't have the same special attacks or Outrage, which definitely gives Dragonite an edge.
 
Misty said:
Did we forget that tiers exist? Calling Vileplume a "worse Celebi/Blissey" ignores the fact that you can use Vileplume in a place where Celebi and Blissey don't exist, thus its "inferiority" is meaningless. Why would we use any water Pokemon that isn't Kyogre? Because Kyogre is banned.
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Obviously we're talking about environments where these pokemon are allowed. If you want to use Vileplume in the standard environment, then you want to differentiate it from something other than "poor man's uber." Of course this is a non-issue if we're talking about a UU-only environment.
 
rbygsc kid 251 said:
obi, I completely agree with you, but the fact of the matter is people will always be stubborn. I am a perfect example of this. Lets take the whole Salamance over Dragonite situation. Probably 90-97 out of 100 trainers are going to take Salamance. Why? Because he is better. i am not doubting salamance's potental, but like my sig says, I freaking hate the third generation, so I will never use a Salamance. It's just my personal choice. Can I win without a Salamance on my team? Sure. Can I win with a Dragonite on my team? I don't see why not.

I guess the final point I want to make is that by being stubborn, some people, like myself, are putting a built in challenge to their game. It's kinda like when you bring in a bunch of UU/BL guys and destroy noob's ubers online.

It can make you feel proud of yourself.
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Please spell "Salamence" correctly...

Anyway, this misses the point.

What I wrote, and what is really the core of Smogon, I'd say, is competitive battling. If you're using your favorites and you want to use a set regardless of effectiveness, then what do you need other people's opinions for? Such a team is made entirely by the trainer, and no arguments can change that, so there's no point in writing anything for it.
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tenchi17 said:
Since when is Salamence better than Dragonite? Salamence doesn't have the same special attacks or Outrage, which definitely gives Dragonite an edge.
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Dragonite is actually one of my favorite Pokemon, but if you were playing rationally instead of with a "freaking hate" for the third generation, as rbygsc kid 251 said, then you would know that as a standalone threat Salamence is generally superior, and play him so. Dragonite can certainly be as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than Salamence with the proper set-up, but don't dismiss (a whole generation of) Pokemon because of personal taste, and then hold it against competitive battlers for using them. If you realize this, then great, go ahead.

And by the way, Dragonite isn't exactly UU worthy...
 
The point is Salamence is not "generally superior" to Dragonite since they provide different things. This isn't a Luxray vs Raikou comparison, in that Raikou can do everything Luxray can but better. Dragonite has the same base stat total and learns different moves. Salamence can't be "generally superior" when it can't do all the things Dragonite does!
 
tenchi17 said:
The point is Salamence is not "generally superior" to Dragonite since they provide different things. This isn't a Luxray vs Raikou comparison, in that Raikou can do everything Luxray can but better. Dragonite has the same base stat total and learns different moves. Salamence can't be "generally superior" when it can't do all the things Dragonite does!
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But Salamence is usually a more immediate threat, while Dragonite needs a DD to become truly scary. Most people prefer the usefulness of being able to stick Salamence into pretty much any team and having him be as dangerous as ever. Believe me, I'm not ripping on Dragonite at all, as I use it quite often. But you can't say that Dragonite definitely has an edge, they're just different types of threats. One needs a set-up while the other is a switch-in fighter.

If you meant that Dragonite definitely has an edge over certain Pokemon, or in certain situations, then I agree with you. But you can't say that it is definitely better than Salamence.
 
Firestorm said:
No, using your favourites with the same set as pokemon who do it better than them isn't original. It's the same formula again and again. I use my favourites. I play them to their strengths, not as a "poor man's Salamence" or "poor man's Skarmory".
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Completely agreed.
 
MTL_Master_Gamer said:
If you meant that Dragonite definitely has an edge over certain Pokemon, or in certain situations, then I agree with you. But you can't say that it is definitely better than Salamence.
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I didn't! I simply said it had its uses, and has an "edge" in the sense that it has a reason for its use and not Salamence's. Perhaps that was poor wording, but in my opinion neither is "better" than the other.
 
MTL_Master_Gamer said:
Dragonite is actually one of my favorite Pokemon, but if you were playing rationally instead of with a "freaking hate" for the third generation, as rbygsc kid 251 said, then you would know that as a standalone threat Salamence is generally superior, and play him so. Dragonite can certainly be as dangerous, if not more dangerous, than Salamence with the proper set-up, but don't dismiss (a whole generation of) Pokemon because of personal taste, and then hold it against competitive battlers for using them. If you realize this, then great, go ahead.

And by the way, Dragonite isn't exactly UU worthy...
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absolutely. I do not get angry with people who use Salamence. I do not hold it against competitive battlers for using the third generation. it is just my personal taste to use generation one and two.
 
Firestorm said:
No, using your favourites with the same set as pokemon who do it better than them isn't original. It's the same formula again and again. I use my favourites. I play them to their strengths, not as a "poor man's Salamence" or "poor man's Skarmory".
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I agree as well. You're using the same Pokemon as everyone else, just weaker. Being original is coming up with new strategies for Pokemon, otherwise it's just wannabe anti-establishment
 
tenchi17 said:
I didn't! I simply said it had its uses, and has an "edge" in the sense that it has a reason for its use and not Salamence's. Perhaps that was poor wording, but in my opinion neither is "better" than the other.
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Agreed.

rbygsc kid 251 said:
absolutely. I do not get angry with people who use Salamence. I do not hold it against competitive battlers for using the third generation. it is just my personal taste to use generation one and two.
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That's fine, more power to you.
 
While some pokemon may appear to be similar at first sight (Blaziken and Infernape), Nintendo have made sure that all pokemon are different in some way, be it stats, movepool or trait.

Its the little differences that count, such as Flygon having Levitiate and Garchomp having to suffer Ground Moves.

So if you were looking for a Special sweeper, you can go with Alakazam and Porygorn-Z for their amazing sp.atk, or you can try somthing different and go with a pokemon that hasn't seen much useage, such as Lapras.

All pokemon are given potential, whether they need BP speed or Attack to get it or not. People don't like the effort of stat-upping, so they go with the pokemon that have higher stats to begin with, which is why Blissey and Mence see so much action.
 
I will play the game

Yes Salamence is better who cares Dragonite get different elemental moves or Outrage.It is those 20 points extra in speed is what truly matters.Stat distribution is on salamence side,Yes Salamence is Generally Superior,Is Salamence more effective special attacker? Yes. Is Salamence a better physical attacker?Yes the speed to get off its attacks on some pokemon that would beat Dragonite.While dragonite present it self some different stuff to make it usable it own right,make no mistake about Salamence is Generally Superior.


Now watch as Million of Draggy fanboys run to support it.
 
There's no need to repeat what has already been said... Of course Salamence poses an instant menacing threat while Dragonite must DD to scare things. Salamence may have 1 base attack stat higher than Dragonite but it doesn't have a physical STAB move with 120 base power. So I don't think it's correct to say that Salamence is more powerful physically. GF should've given Dragonite a useful ability to further differentiate it from its brothers.
 
First I will put this out there I like Dragonite,I used Dragonite in R/S i happy that switch gave something more useful to do and brought back to land of the OU.


But


Salamence has move 100 bp move that does not lock it in to one move.For example dragonite dd once KOs a starmie with Outrage then defensive Empoleon,T-Tar or a Registeel comes in what does Dragonite do then run away.What does Salamence do in the same situation it brick break or earthquake those same pokemon.I pretty sure you can come up some situation where outrage extra power comes in handy and where dragonite extra defenses came in handy but if you can't see that Salamence is better choice in most cases,Well i can't do anything about that.

What I was trying to saying and I was agreeing with most people even though Salamence and Garchomp may be better pokes,You can still find a use for Dragonite or Flygon and they can still be very effective competitively.
 
Whilst luck has rightfully said that it's Salamence's speed that gives him the edge, I'm gonna argue that it's Dragonite's predictability that gives Salamence the edge.

People have said that Outrage is Dragonite's main strength. Each and every Dragonite I've fought on Wifi has used DD/Outrage/Earthquake/FirePunch or ThunderPunch. Compare this to Salamence who can belt out SpecsMence, DDMence or BandMence sets. I have actually been up against a Salamence and switched in my special wall (expecting Specs Draco Meteor), only to eat a CB Dragon Claw which ultimately cost me the match.

Anyway, that is miles off topic. :jump:

If another Pokemon can do the same job better, why not use that other Pokemon?
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Well, the obvious excuse is "I wanna use my favourite" but that's obviously not gonna hold any weight here. I thought about this for a bit, and the best reasoning to use an inferior Pokemon is to take advantage of the obscurity and thus, unpredictability of that Pokemon.

Using your Raikou argument, if he comes out, I will know his moveset before my opponent does a thing. Thunderbolt/Sub//CM/HP Ice or Grass. I switch to Blissey/Snorlax and that's the end of that threat.

On the other hand, if I you were to use an inferior Electric type like Raichu, you could potentially rip the game wide open if you Sub and Focus Punch on the Blissey switch and follow it up with a Volt Tackle or something.

An easy to predict Pokemon is easily predicted. Obviously.
 
So basically the gist of this thread is don't a moveset on one pokemon when another pokemon can pull it off better?
 
There's always the factor of surprise, which can score you a kill. Though generally relying on surprising the enemy is bad.
 
I'm not a Dragonite supporter, so nobody thinks that by this post.

Luck said:
Yes but it has to use Outrage or else why not use Salamence .
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You get 4 moves, DD and Outrage only takes up 2. You can easily use Brick Break/Earthquake.

You probably could play it with a Garchomp feel; that is, do some damage early game, and sweep with Outrage in the end. And unlike Garchomp, if they send in Starmie for the revenge kill, you haven't lost Dragonite (because you're either faster because of a DD, or because you have enough SpDef without EVs to live through a standard non-Specs Starmie's Ice Beam).

edit: never mind, Ice Beam will OHKO Dragonite about half of the time. Dragonite still can be faster though.
 
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