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What is the best set for a Pokemon?

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At the root of it all this is a pokemon game, and it operates off of numbers, not your "feelings" towards your pokemons. No matter how much you stroke your pikachu's pokeballs, he isn't going to thunderbolt a sprinkler and drench the ground types in water so that he can thunderbolt them into oblivion.

It's based on numbers which includes(luck/chance)as well as prediction(skill).

Bigger numbers(stats) are better than smaller ones. Obviously. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight and expect to win just because you like your knife, or that it looks cool. While you may "surprise" someone by bringing said knife, after the initial shock wears off, you're gunna get blasted regardless.

All in all I would agree with the OP, but that seems more common sense than anything.
 
Rodan said:
So basically the gist of this thread is don't a moveset on one pokemon when another pokemon can pull it off better?
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that, or play each pokemon to it's advantages over other pokemon. you wouldn't employ your blissey as a physical wall, don't try to send your butterfree as a special sweeper; it may not be a top quality pokemon as far as the OU metagame goes, but at least it can sleep stuff with greater accuracy than the majority of pokemon.
 
chaos said:
that, or play each pokemon to it's advantages over other pokemon. you wouldn't employ your blissey as a physical wall, don't try to send your butterfree as a special sweeper; it may not be a top quality pokemon as far as the OU metagame goes, but at least it can sleep stuff with greater accuracy than the majority of pokemon.
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So hypothetically if someone were to come up with this move set for a Pikachu

Charge Beam
Iron Tail
Grass Knot
Rollout

and Pikachu pulled it off perfectly[Remember, it's hypothetical], instead or trying to use this on a Pachrisu, you should play to Pachrisu's strengths (Status I guess??) with a Thunder Wave/Super Fang/Sweet Kiss/U-Turn set.
 
The defenses don't make as much of a difference now as they used to though, since special attackers are using 266 SpAtk instead of 235 (I think that's what it was), and 266 SpAtk Ice Beam will usually OHKO Dragonite.
 
Esco Thomson said:
At the root of it all this is a pokemon game, and it operates off of numbers, not your "feelings" towards your pokemons. No matter how much you stroke your pikachu's pokeballs, he isn't going to thunderbolt a sprinkler and drench the ground types in water so that he can thunderbolt them into oblivion.

It's based on numbers which includes(luck/chance)as well as prediction(skill).

Bigger numbers(stats) are better than smaller ones. Obviously. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight and expect to win just because you like your knife, or that it looks cool. While you may "surprise" someone by bringing said knife, after the initial shock wears off, you're gunna get blasted regardless.

All in all I would agree with the OP, but that seems more common sense than anything.
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Agreed, but on the same note we must remeber different numbers are for different things.
 
porygon3 said:
The defenses don't make as much of a difference now as they used to though, since special attackers are using 266 SpAtk instead of 235 (I think that's what it was), and 266 SpAtk Ice Beam will usually OHKO Dragonite.
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And that's Dragonite's edge. A guarentee on Mence could become a 6-0 by bulky Draggy. I don't see why it can't outclass Mence in Specsing, either. It gets Draco Meteor, Ice Beam(Blizzard), Flamethrower(FBlast), Thunder(bolt), Focus Blast, Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power, Focus Punch and Surf for only 10 less SAttk and superior defenses. Compare that to Mence's Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Hidden Power, Hydro Pump, and FB/FThrower. And never forget its massive support options (Heal Bell, Haze, Light Screen/Reflect/Safeguard, and Thunder Wave come to mind). Superior movepool + unpredictability is win.
 
I will do something most people don't do.Say I am wrong.I taught that most people would see that Salamence is clearly better at doing thing than Draggy .I was wrong.I don't want to take from topic anymore by making it Draggy /Mence argument.

I think topic was more about about people use certain pokemon in roles,when they are trying make competitive team and settle for a lesser pokemon when there is poke that does same exact role better.I think this is a better example a person use using a Dracometer Altaria or DD Altaria when they could use Mence/Draggy.
 
Choice Specs Dragonite has one edge that Specsmence doesn't, and that is the ability to dent Blissey with Focus Punch. Although Salamence may have higher base speed, Dragonite's wider options might make it the better choice in the end.
 
Firestorm said:
It'd be better if you could find something Luxray is uniquely good at and play to that strength instead. "Toxi-Shuffling" isn't that great a strategy anyway IMO.

I'll give an example. I like Dragonite. Garchomp is an ugly little god knows what. Instead of going Choice Band Outrage, I use a Dragon Dance Outrage Dragonite. This is something neither Salamence nor Garchomp can do and is effective.

You should always look at things Pokemon can do effectively that others can't and play to those strengths if you really, absolutely must play with your favourites.
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Stole the words right out of my mouth....or fingers, whatever. Woah, I probably shoulda read the other 3 pages of posts....
 
While I can respect the general thought process of the original poster and subsequent replies, I think prescribing to this thought process can cause as much damage as good.

Assume for a minute that most of the people follow this rule, sets become standardized, and one (possibly two) sets become the accepted standard for every Pokemon. You play this way, and most of the people you know play this way. You've trained yourself to react a certain way when you see a certain thing.

Then comes a player who plays their own style, without creating their team within the confines of this guideline. As they play you, they realize your team is built around this "best" concept, and are able to exploit it. Suddenly, they are playing with a good deal of knowledge about your team, while you are faced with uncertainty at every move.

Battles are all about prediction, and streamlining the options in this way makes prediction a whole lot easier. Using unusual or unorthodox sets can give you a (perhaps brief) edge in every battle. Every time a new series comes out and the options grow more and more, playing with this style becomes more and more successful. Of course, I'm not suggesting anyone whip up a team of crazies, but using a solid base of a team with a couple of aces in the mix is a very valid battle strategy.
 
porygon3 said:
The defenses don't make as much of a difference now as they used to though, since special attackers are using 266 SpAtk instead of 235 (I think that's what it was), and 266 SpAtk Ice Beam will usually OHKO Dragonite.
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An Ice Beam will OHKO most Dragons...including Salamence.
 
To illustrate what I'm getting out of this, I'm going to use the Manectric/Raikou comparison.

Let's say they both had the following sets.

Raikou @ Leftovers
Timid
EVs: 64 HP/252 Spd/96 SpAtk/96SpDef
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Substitute
- Calm Mind

Manectric @ Leftovers
Timid
EVs: 64 HP/252 Spd/96 SpAtk/96SpDef
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave

Almost an exact copy, and does far worse a job then Raikou does. However, using this set:

Manectric @ Leftovers
Timid
EVs: 252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Flamethrower
- Uproar
- Thunder Wave

This would be a better idea because he performs diffently and can do thinks Raikou can't. (Preventing sleep, being able to use Flamethrower) Not the best set, mind you, but still better then using a worse off version of standard Raikou, right?
 
The argument here really is "Which is better? To have the best moveset a pokemon can have? Or to have the best pokemon a moveset can have?" Personally, I don't think any one pokemon is best suited for one particular set. While some sets are generally better than others on a specific pokemon, the rest of the team really must be considered. Who is to say what is best for every team?

If you want to use your favorite, sub-optimal pokemon and get crushed, no one is going to stop you. But if you want to win, use the best pokemon for the moves.
 
Fish is getting at what I was thinking reading this thread. Surprise sets have their merits. I mean, why would you use a Cspecs Dragonite? Salamence does it better. That's what they're saying as you get a kill with Cspecs Dragonite. It's "dumb" to use and therefore unexpected.

Likewise, sometimes different teams need different things. Maybe your team, for whatever reason, really wants the bulkiness of Dragonite over the speed of Salamence. Maybe you want the bulkiness of Vileplume for Swords Dance without a 4X bug weak. Maybe you think that you can integrate the surprise benefit and the small but generally lesser advantages like extra defenses over attack/speed onto a sweeper into a winning formula.

In that sense, I think using Pokemon that do one job in an inferior way isn't a bad thing so long as you are doing it trying to win. Being stubborn with "I hate 3rd gen" or "Unown is my favorite" is likely to be a burden, but using things for the sake of being unpredictably different can be successful.
 
Prio said:
An Ice Beam will OHKO most Dragons...including Salamence.
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He was talking about how one of Dragonite's advantages was living through an Ice Beam where Salamence can't. However, with Garchomp on the rampage, people are opting to give 266 spatk to their Ice Beam users for a OHKO on Garchomp. This can also OHKO Dragonite.
 
Blah, blah. Of course if you're playing to win you either play to the meta or you play anti-meta, which still means using the best or using something different for a very specific and effective goal. However, as a "casual" player who uses things he likes, I feel the need to address two points.

What I wrote, and what is really the core of Smogon, I'd say, is competitive battling. If you're using your favorites and you want to use a set regardless of effectiveness, then what do you need other people's opinions for? Such a team is made entirely by the trainer, and no arguments can change that, so there's no point in writing anything for it.

The reason is that, although some of us play with favorites and goofy/sub-optimal ideas, we still want to make the very best of them. Thus, speaking with smart people is still the best way to do that. :p

The only reason to use a certain moveset on an inferior Pokemon, other than the blindly stupid idea of "favorites" would be if that pokemon's types fit your team better than the superior Pokemon's would. Although if you have to force a Pokemon in, then you probably need to make a better team.

If you are playing purely with the intent to win, then yes. It is stupid. But I do object slightly to being insulted like that. Some of us are well aware of what we're doing and not following a "blindly stupid idea" and are instead doing something that we enjoy. I agree! Its not wise for competitive play. But I still have more fun. So please, no name calling?

Absolutely agree. If you are playing a Pokemon based on what it looks like, then you should probably head to a different forum.

And I didn't say that you shouldn't play favorites with your Pokemon, but that maybe you shouldn't be playing on Smogon.

Except this is still a premier source of information and a wonderful source of good battles. Please remember. Just because some of us enjoy "casual" play, doesn't mean numbers don't matter and doesn't mean we don't enjoy playing against competitive teams. I know what this site is about, but there is no need for the "go elsewhere" attitude.

Just felt the need to speak up a bit. Rawr.
 
Prio said:
An Ice Beam will OHKO most Dragons...including Salamence.
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Last gen, people used just enough SpAtk to OHKO a standard Salamence with Ice Beam (assuming no STAB, it was 235), and Dragonite could live through it while Salamence couldn't. Now that Garchomp has been made, Ice Beamers try to get 266 instead, which means Dragonite will now be OHKO'd by Ice Beam when it previously wouldn't
 
Amazing Ampharos said:
I mean, why would you use a Cspecs Dragonite?
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Boltbeam, Focus Punch, loling so hard when it survives Ice Beam for the OHKO on something. And Ice Beam isn't the only thing to watch out for, you could bring Draggy in on a CC that would severely dent Mence. You could survive a Stone Edge from something thinking it's got you beat just because it's got Mence beat. Maybe a bulkier set without Specs would be generally more effective, but hey. Ever heard of CBSkarm and the chaos it caused on things thinking they could set up on it? Slow and less attack means it OHKOs less, better defenses means it doesn't have to OHKO. The same applies to Dragonite.
 
I'd just like to point out that Pokemon is a game, which people play for fun. There's no money involved, there's no prizes for winning all your battles, there's really no reason to play for anything but your own enjoyment, so why not play with your favorites as long as you find that more "fun" than playing with standards? Such examples that Obi presented only work if the player is playing solely to win. Now, I personally enjoy winning, and the main reason I play Pokemon is to improve and beat everybody else, but not everybody does so and there's no reason to go around calling people who use their favorites "blindly stupid". There's definitely a feeling of satisfaction when you pull off a double powder with a Butterfree, or when you sweep their team with a Raticate.
 
I'm going to have to side with COalex on this one; like he said, yes, we all do enjoy winning, but beating another player at a game that promises nothing more than bragging rights as an ultimate reward makes it hard to justify a 'play to win' approach. If someone wants to use their favourite in a way that justifies it, even if it's comparatively worse when put beside another candidate, you can't just send them off of the site for wanting to be different, or go 'hey you can't use Dragonite with Choice Specs, Salamence does it better.' I think we should at least try to help those users that say they want to use a specific pokemon or two regardless of how inherently bad it may be considered, and fill the other slots with pokemon that play to the strengths of the favourites and produce a well-rounded team.

Of course, I do enjoy using my favourites, but I tend to try to use them in unusual ways to catch my opponent off guard rather than use the most effective set number-wise, that way it isn't comparatively worse to something in the OU metagame. I still think those users that think differently shouldn't be considered the Bane of Smogon, however.
 
In casual battling with friends, I think it's fine using your favorite pokemon, but since this is smogon, centered around tourney/competitive battling, the favorites thing usually doesn't work.

Also, this may be digressing from the outclassing argument that Obi made in the first post, but running a pokemon with a moveset pulled off more effectively by another pokemon could add an element of surprise. The following example should help illustrate my point, but it's probably going to be slightly confusing to read. Also, I am using abstract names because I can't think of a concrete example.

Player A favors pokemon X over pokemon Y. They share a commonly used moveset 1, and pokemon Y pulls off the set more effectively than pokemon X. However, pokemon X also has a second moveset, 2, that cannot be used by pokemon Y. So, in competitive gaming, pokemon X is usually seen using moveset 2. However, player A runs a pokemon X with moveset 1, for whatever reason.

Meanwhile, player B has a pokemon Z, using moveset 3, which is the best counter to pokemon X to counter the more commonly used moveset 2. However, moveset 3 falls to moveset 1.

Players A and B battle, and eventually, player A's pokemon X with moveset 1 is pitted against player B's pokemon Z with moveset 3. Player A has observed that pokemon Z almost always carries moveset 3, and he knows that, if player B's pokemon Z is carrying moveset 3, his pokemon X will beat it. Player B (incorrectly) assumes that player A's pokemon X is carrying moveset 2, and this causes his pokemon Z to get fainted, and down one pokemon, player B loses the match.
 
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