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What is uber?
- Thread starter obi
- Start date
To standard Milotic:
336 attack vs 286 defense, 120 power(*2), 384 max HP: 53.13% - 62.5%
To standard Suicune:
336 attack vs 266 defense, 120 power(*2), 404 max HP: 54.21% - 63.86%
To standard Vaporeon:
336 attack vs 226 defense, 120 power(*2), 464 max HP: 55.17% - 65.09%
Now if you want to say "I'll just Special Defense EV it, then I guess I'll just max Kyogre's Special Attack."
336 attack vs 286 defense, 120 power(*2), 384 max HP: 53.13% - 62.5%
To standard Suicune:
336 attack vs 266 defense, 120 power(*2), 404 max HP: 54.21% - 63.86%
To standard Vaporeon:
336 attack vs 226 defense, 120 power(*2), 464 max HP: 55.17% - 65.09%
Now if you want to say "I'll just Special Defense EV it, then I guess I'll just max Kyogre's Special Attack."
Forgive me if I say Grass Rope. That's what it was directly translated as and I'm used to it.
To use Mantine, an almost completely outclassed special wall, just to counter Manaphy is overcentralization. Ludicolo, ok. Tenta, ok, I was just saying Mirror Coat isn't a normal part of its moveset and I wasn't sure if +6 Energy Ball/Grass Rope would OHKO or not.
I meant you gave Palkia spacial rend twice.
lol >_>
Focus Punch
Ok, but if any of these pokemon are going to be tested, people are obviously going to start using unorthodox pokemon as counters. Why do you think people started using the previously UU Tentacruel to counter Mix Infernape? If it's a solid counter, then why not?
People put Ice attacks and boltbeam on so much stuff just for Garchomp and Gyarados and such, are they causing overcentralization? Apparently not. There's also the Magneton-Skarmory case back in ADV.
I personally don't really see how Tail Glow Manaphy is more dangerous than Calm Mind Suicune. I mean, if Manaphy can't use Rain Dance without messing up its coverage on a Tail Glow moveset, then it can't heal itself nearly as well. If people can deal with a 2 Calm Minded Suicune, I think they can deal with Manaphy too.
Your joking right with this post right?
Blissey/Giratina do not counter Arceus on a whole and only specific sets at that
Timid Kyogre always 2hko Lati@s with Specs and Modest can OHKO, and these calcs are done without Soul Dew, but even if you account for Soul Dew Lati@s is still always 2hkoed
Rayquaza can 2hko Groudon easily
Palkia can OHKO Lati@s with Spacial Rend with Choice Specs and gets an easy 2hko without it
Darkrai is not a counter to Lati@s as it cannot switch in as they 2hko it with Dragon Pulse and do not get OHKOed by Dark Pulse regardles of their item
And concerning Darkrai and Deoxys - A with Arceus you should be able to see that Arces can only counter them depending on favouring situations so that part of the post is also irrelevant.
Back on topic I totally agree with Jibaku's list. As far as i see it Kyogre has no place in OU to begin with and without it there is nothing stopping Ho-oh, yes you can complain about Stealth Rock but as we all know it's not always on the field and Spinners do exist.
Once again nothing in OU is stopping Palkia much less Ubers so I dont see why it would be allowed in OU in the first place and almost the same goes for Dialga, but for some reason i could see this working in OU due to the fact that its so slow and its weaknesses are exploitable
Mew i wouldnt consider Uber just because it can run a bunch of sets, its mainly the Baton Pass set that causes it to be uber in my opinion, nothing can really stop it as it has moves like Taunt and Hypnosis at its disposal and the stats to sit infront of most pokemon and use them without fear of being OHKOed, then to pass a +2 boost to any pokemon in the game is a rather absurd thing to let into OU.
As for the other Uber pokemon i can all see reasons as to why they should be tested in OU and giving them all a chance at once would definately yield some interesting results.
I dislike the premise. Currently, we have an OU metagame where the general public (on Shoddybattle, WiFi, and Smogon) have been playing. OU is a well defined metagame as it is and clearly still has plenty of room for innovation.
The problem with releasing all of them at once is like I said earlier: we won't be playing with OU as we know it anymore.
What we need is a non-subjective way to test whether one metagame is better than another. Because there are so many pokemon, we can create very well balanced metagames changing only some 5 to 15 pokemon at a time. Adding just 5 of these "possible Ubers" to OU, or subtracting ~10 members of the 600 Club from OU... both will clearly create a balanced metagame (eventually with testing).
With that in mind, I ask, what do you want by adding these pokemon to Ubers? Not just to Obi, but to everyone. We really need to know _what_ kind of game we are looking for before changing the metagame, else it may just get worse.
Why I think adding powerful pokemon is a bad thing: Everyone loves using UU and NU pokemon in OU, especially if they are well played and possible. In fact, many people openly try to avoid blatantly OU pokemon to come up with unique teams. By adding clearly powerful Pokemon to OU, this is far less possible. The UU metagame, as awesome as it is shaping up to be right now, is not played, nor is it standardized. Right now, GameFAQs, Smogon, Serebii and for the most part ShoddyBattle all agree on practically the same OU metagame. But there is no standard on any site what is and isn't UU.
"Unique teams" cannot compete as well when even more powerful pokemon are added to this mix. Yes, bringing in Manaphy allows strange and wonderful counters like Ludicolo to come out of hiding, but it makes it even a bigger disadvantage for those unique players who want to pull out BL/UU pokemon and still compete in this metagame.
You might just say... then go play in UU. But every other tier however is totally out of whack. OU is the biggest and the most standard metagame, it is a challenge to even find a UU player, let alone a UU player who even follows the same tier system as you.
I advocate small testing, doing it one at a time. We should see if single Pokemon adversely effects the metagame, never releasing them all at once.
@Dragontamer
I agree with some of this, but I kind of disagree with your opinion on not being able to use UU pokemon in OU anymore after all of those ubers would be introduced into OU.
For example, you have pokemon that are currently NU, like Seaking, that would do tremendously with something like Kyogre there to give it a boost.
Then, there's also more Shedinja usage since a lot of the ubers being introduced can't hit the guy, and he's often seen as an UU in a lot of sites (not here obviously).
You get the rise of Parasect/Toxicroak thanks to Kyogre.
There's also the rise of Registeel thanks to the Lati twins.
Calling in the more powerful pokemon into OU calls for more niches, and more niches bring more lesser used pokemon, and more lesser used pokemon brings more diversity.
It's not all that hard to use UU/BL pokemon in OU, especially since some of them actually compete quite well in ubers already. Eg. Registeel, Qwilfish, Seaking, Shedinja, just to name a few.
I agree with some of this, but I kind of disagree with your opinion on not being able to use UU pokemon in OU anymore after all of those ubers would be introduced into OU.
For example, you have pokemon that are currently NU, like Seaking, that would do tremendously with something like Kyogre there to give it a boost.
Then, there's also more Shedinja usage since a lot of the ubers being introduced can't hit the guy, and he's often seen as an UU in a lot of sites (not here obviously).
You get the rise of Parasect/Toxicroak thanks to Kyogre.
There's also the rise of Registeel thanks to the Lati twins.
Calling in the more powerful pokemon into OU calls for more niches, and more niches bring more lesser used pokemon, and more lesser used pokemon brings more diversity.
It's not all that hard to use UU/BL pokemon in OU, especially since some of them actually compete quite well in ubers already. Eg. Registeel, Qwilfish, Seaking, Shedinja, just to name a few.
I think we're looking for a balanced metagame where one Pokémon is not overcentralizing the enitre metagame. Manaphy was banned without a test (or at least to my knowledge, correct me if I'm wrong) in OU, so testing it would be a good idea. I think we should do this like you would a poll for statisics; pick random people and get their consent and try things around for testing. Releasing them into OU is plain stupid. Get some newbies, some fogeys and some intermediate players and battle each one to get a good idea.
As for UU, if you read my post in some other topic (lol, really specific there) my phylisophy in the matter is that UU evolved form being too weak for standard, and NU evolved form being too weak for UU. So therefore, there is no balance in the metagame of UU or NU, and there probably never will be without a tier between UU and BL once BL offically becomes a tier.
As for UU, if you read my post in some other topic (lol, really specific there) my phylisophy in the matter is that UU evolved form being too weak for standard, and NU evolved form being too weak for UU. So therefore, there is no balance in the metagame of UU or NU, and there probably never will be without a tier between UU and BL once BL offically becomes a tier.
if we add half of the ubers to standard, why have two seperate metagames? Honestly, Obi get on with your real point of making our current Uber game the Standard game. It's obvious this is what you want, so why don't you say it?
I have no problem with changing the standard metagame to include everything. I do have a problem with this fad of trying to turn the standard metagame into the uber metagame. For one, we know that a 70+ BST difference is an amazing advantage, unless you have a hindering trait. Two, lvl 1 kyogre's + groudon's were banned in RSE because of the threat of auto weather. Honestly, any of them endgame ubers (670+ BST) are clearly too strong for standard.
Now, anything with 600 BST can be considered for standard. From this, Deoxys A + N are almost definitely autobanned, for their insane speed and attack stats. Manaphy was tested earlier, nothing on your list of possible standard really counters it. Mew is basically a free GG. It's worse than Baton Pass Celebi was in ADV because it can completely shut down phazers. Wobby can never have a true counter. This pretty much leaves Deoxys D + S left. D-S is being testing, and people already complain about Cresselia with its oh so reliable recovery.
In other words, I'm all for making ubers our standard game, but OU cannot really hold anything else without becoming too similar to ubers.
I have no problem with changing the standard metagame to include everything. I do have a problem with this fad of trying to turn the standard metagame into the uber metagame. For one, we know that a 70+ BST difference is an amazing advantage, unless you have a hindering trait. Two, lvl 1 kyogre's + groudon's were banned in RSE because of the threat of auto weather. Honestly, any of them endgame ubers (670+ BST) are clearly too strong for standard.
Now, anything with 600 BST can be considered for standard. From this, Deoxys A + N are almost definitely autobanned, for their insane speed and attack stats. Manaphy was tested earlier, nothing on your list of possible standard really counters it. Mew is basically a free GG. It's worse than Baton Pass Celebi was in ADV because it can completely shut down phazers. Wobby can never have a true counter. This pretty much leaves Deoxys D + S left. D-S is being testing, and people already complain about Cresselia with its oh so reliable recovery.
In other words, I'm all for making ubers our standard game, but OU cannot really hold anything else without becoming too similar to ubers.
Of course, some UU / BL pokemon will benefit, the ones that the Ubers work well with. I have a feeling however (especially if Groudon is kept banned while Kyogre stays) that far more pokemon would be left behind. Arcanine, Ninetales and Rapidash will clearly get even worse under a rain with their primary attack getting halved. (and rain it will with Kyogre out). Anyone who wants to run Moonlight Umbreon or Synthesis Meganium will suffer even more with a 3rd weather effect bringing doom to their recovery.
Even with Specsmence and Garchomp right now, there is occasional use of Flygon. Throw say Palkia in and I have trouble wondering why to use Flygon when Specs DracoMeteor can fire off 150 base sp. attack at 100 speed, dealing way more than double the damage of Specs Earth Power and nearly double the damage of Flygon's Meteor. (and chomp already stole his band set) Palkia's Surf probably even beats Flygon's Earth Power on Steel Pokemon.
I'm not that familiar with ubers, so I'm not going to embarass myself by analyzing something I know nothing about, but maybe a new teir is in order. BLU maybe? Then people get to keep their precious OUs, but those who wish can still use their 'debatable ubers' here. The uber teir though, is probably not big enough for a split, but it could be of some help.
Why not just go with the radio marks?
High Frequency
Very High Frequency
Ultra High Frequency
etc. etc.
So... OverUsed. VOU for Very OverUsed. And UltraOver Used if we need another split after that. (OU, VOU, UOU)
High Frequency
Very High Frequency
Ultra High Frequency
etc. etc.
So... OverUsed. VOU for Very OverUsed. And UltraOver Used if we need another split after that. (OU, VOU, UOU)
Yeah, but there doesn't seem like much of a point to that, because, why not just play ubers? Everything is available there, and there's not much point of making a whole tier so that 5 more pokemon can be used.
Dragontamer, I understand where you're coming from with that. I'd say that the bigger problem is most likely just Kyogre, since it seems like the ultimate screwjob for a lot of the pokemon, especially a lot of Fires that are UU/BL.
As Obi suggested, moving ubers and their uber counters into the OU tier means that OU would become Ubers-lite, not become more diverse.
It forces even more of people's favorite Pokes into BL where they are unusable due to the influx of uber powerhouses, because they simply don't stand up to base 680 monsters and those monsters will steal the jobs of most OU Pokemon in their type (Kyogre is the best water special attacker, best water special wall, best water CMer, etc so you replace 10 water types with 1). If you allow Ho-oh, but also Kyogre to counter it and pretend that makes them balance out, there is no way you can run a team without one or both; OU teams without them would be fodder.
The only OU/UU Pokemon that would benefit are niche Pokemon and for every 1 of those you lose 5 regular OU who just don't measure up anymore. So, the choice of available Pokemon constricts, people like me who use half BL Pokemon on their OU teams will be forced to use only high tier OU and ubers to see any success, and now only UU looks worth playing. No thanks.
There's already too many good Pokemon stuck in BL thanks to the likes of Blissey and Garchomp, adding 10 ubers into OU just makes that list gigantic. Letting them in with testing one at a time is one thing, because I seriously doubt much beyond Deoxys-S is going to fit into OU.
It forces even more of people's favorite Pokes into BL where they are unusable due to the influx of uber powerhouses, because they simply don't stand up to base 680 monsters and those monsters will steal the jobs of most OU Pokemon in their type (Kyogre is the best water special attacker, best water special wall, best water CMer, etc so you replace 10 water types with 1). If you allow Ho-oh, but also Kyogre to counter it and pretend that makes them balance out, there is no way you can run a team without one or both; OU teams without them would be fodder.
The only OU/UU Pokemon that would benefit are niche Pokemon and for every 1 of those you lose 5 regular OU who just don't measure up anymore. So, the choice of available Pokemon constricts, people like me who use half BL Pokemon on their OU teams will be forced to use only high tier OU and ubers to see any success, and now only UU looks worth playing. No thanks.
There's already too many good Pokemon stuck in BL thanks to the likes of Blissey and Garchomp, adding 10 ubers into OU just makes that list gigantic. Letting them in with testing one at a time is one thing, because I seriously doubt much beyond Deoxys-S is going to fit into OU.
I am now a very very happy camper now that you brought that up. We don't like NFE's in UU/NU because we don't want those tiers being OU-lite, and the same principle applys here. Good job Raikou.
I think that we could trade Pokémon between tiers. Manaphy for TTar, etc.
Im all for semi-uber.
Testing Kyogre would be an absolute waste of time, but at least rain dance would dominate OU instead of sandstorm for a change!
I'm all for testing deoxys, deoxys-D, lugia/ho-oh, the Latis (without soul dew), and Wobba. I don't think a pokemon should always be considered uber just based on it's strength. You have to also consider whether they'd overcentralize the metagame. ie-Darkai's not that powerful but it takes too many pokes to counter it. This is what seperates most of these pokes from OU imo, but you have to consider what would happen to the OU standards with a surge of all these pokemon.
Would anyone use specsmence when they can use Palkia/Dialga?
Would anyone bother with Heatran when the metagame is dominated by rain?
Would Gengar even be OU with Darkrai in the game?
Just a few thoughts for you that think we should dump all these monsters into a still developing metagame.
I'm all for testing deoxys, deoxys-D, lugia/ho-oh, the Latis (without soul dew), and Wobba. I don't think a pokemon should always be considered uber just based on it's strength. You have to also consider whether they'd overcentralize the metagame. ie-Darkai's not that powerful but it takes too many pokes to counter it. This is what seperates most of these pokes from OU imo, but you have to consider what would happen to the OU standards with a surge of all these pokemon.
Would anyone use specsmence when they can use Palkia/Dialga?
Would anyone bother with Heatran when the metagame is dominated by rain?
Would Gengar even be OU with Darkrai in the game?
Just a few thoughts for you that think we should dump all these monsters into a still developing metagame.
I dunno. Here is the list again.
My problem with Manaphy is always the same: it was already tested. Actually, Manaphy might be the only one that can increase diversity. The issue with this one is whether or not it is Uber but thats for another topic.
Mew will easily take the place of Leafeon and Floatzel as speedy Taunt + Baton Passers, with the advantage of unpredictability (you never know what Mew will BP till it actually does it. At least with Leafeon you know its always going to be a swords dance or wish)
Death of Moltres and Charizard right there. I'd assume this would kill Arcanine, Entei and just about every other BL / UU Fire Type there is.
Goodbye Flygon and Kingdra.
A Registeel and Steelix with a bit less defense, and a hell of a lot more attack and Draco Meteor.
As if Azelf and Alakazam had enough with Weavile. Add another STAB pursuiter who is faster than both of them, with the option of Dark Void.
Eh... never used one.
Kyogre was discussed before. Lugia I've never really used. I really hate Wobbuffet.
Just about every pokemon on the Uber border is going to cut out many usable pokemon, maybe even more than the diversity they bring in.
Manaphy is the only über that is going to balance out the metagame. If it had a fire counterpart (actually, I think Heatran was supposed to be Manaphy's counterpart with different stats) the whole Rain Dance/Sunny Day thing would become more apperant, and Weather Control would become much more effective. Castform useage would probably see a surge as well.
Manaphy is very prodictable, and if you think about it, Umbreon can counter it. Umbreon has high Sp. Def, and has Taunt, Mean Look and BP, as well as Yawn, so if manaphy were allowed, Umbreon would become OU.
Manaphy is very prodictable, and if you think about it, Umbreon can counter it. Umbreon has high Sp. Def, and has Taunt, Mean Look and BP, as well as Yawn, so if manaphy were allowed, Umbreon would become OU.