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What is uber?

Acredula said:
Manaphy is the only über that is going to balance out the metagame. If it had a fire counterpart (actually, I think Heatran was supposed to be Manaphy's counterpart with different stats) the whole Rain Dance/Sunny Day thing would become more apperant, and Weather Control would become much more effective. Castform useage would probably see a surge as well.

Manaphy is very prodictable, and if you think about it, Umbreon can counter it. Umbreon has high Sp. Def, and has Taunt, Mean Look and BP, as well as Yawn, so if manaphy were allowed, Umbreon would become OU.
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??

1. Umbreon switches in. Manaphy Tail Glows
2. Manaphy Surfs (55% to 60% damage). Umbreon uses Mean Look.
3. Manaphy Surfs (55% to 60% damage). Umbreon dies.

Assuming 252/252 +Nature Umbreon and 252 Sp. Attack LO Manaphy. Hardly a counter. Umbreon doesn't even have the time to Taunt, let alone Mean Look / Pass.

-----

EDIT... Yawn... well...


1. Umbreon switches in. Manaphy Tail Glows
2. Manaphy Surfs (55% to 60% damage). Umbreon uses Yawn
3. Manaphy Surfs (55% to 60% damage). Umbreon dies. Manaphy falls asleep.
4. Manaphy switches out for Rain Dancer. ...
5. Manaphy comes back in with rain, Sleep is lifted.
 
Look Obi, if you want Kyogre and Giratina (but not Groudon and Rayquaza for some absurd reason), just play Ubers.

Name one instance where someone would choose any other wall when they could choose Giratina or Lugia? Lugia is like Cresselia on Steroids, with a reliable recovery move and true Boltbeam to boot. Giratina isn't particularly great at eating Outrage or Draco Meteor, but walls the hell out of Gyarados and Heracross.

Bringing these Ubers down will centralize OU. Garchomp doesn't even compare to these beasts, it isn't as if Garchomp can use Fire Blast right after it starts Outrage, so meanwhile someone sets up spikes or gets a shot off. Worse still, it can be revenge killed by Ice Shard Weavile and Mamoswine. There's also loads of pokemon with ground immunity through either flying type or levitate. In contrast, there are 6 fully evolved pokemon with Water Absorb, 5 of which get owned by Thunder and the other by Ice Beam. Kyogre has no 4x weaknesses and has mich better defenses overall, especially special defense. Kyogre switches into Specsmence Draco Meteor saying "LOL whut up fool!"

Lets face it, a metagame with any of these beasts down is completely different from OU. Every since team will have one of Lugia, Giratina, or Kyogre if those 3 are brought down.
 
Dragontamer, Hydra, and Raikou all expressed my thoughts on this subject perfectly. Making a balanced "uber-lite" metagame is only going to hurt the metagame we now know as OU and all signs point to the "uber-lite" metagame to be less diverse than today's OU metagame.
 
rofl this is the end of pokemon as we know it. i thought unbanning Deoxys-S would open up a huge bag of worms.

Lets just all start playing ubers. Would DT/OHKO still be banned?
 
Dragontamer said:
1. Umbreon switches in. Manaphy Tail Glows
2. Manaphy Surfs (55% to 60% damage). Umbreon uses Yawn
3. Manaphy Surfs (55% to 60% damage). Umbreon dies. Manaphy falls asleep.
4. Manaphy switches out for Rain Dancer. ...
5. Manaphy comes back in with rain, Sleep is lifted.
Click to expand...
I was assuming a Manaphy Switch in, but whatever. Haze Crobat for the win!
 
I can't wait to make a new team consisting of :

Blissey
Cresselia
Kyogre counter
Giratina counter
Darkrai counter
Wobbuffet

Wake me up when all this BS is over.
 
Ummm.......

In case I'm missing something, shouldn't we start with the Uber metagame as is? Then we can use results from the existing Uber metagame to figure out what to ban out to "Ultra-Uber" or "Legendary". This lets you create a middle ground between OU and Uber that could replace OU naturally if it really is that much better.

Obi's list of:
Rayquaza
Deoxys-A
Deoxys-M
Latios
Latias
Groudon
Mewtwo
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For obvious candidates for "Ultra Uber" or "Legendary" looks good, especially after reading some Uber warstories. However, I have to think that Kyogre would eventually find its way onto that list. Unless I've missed something he seems to feature in to a large number of Uber War Stories as is.
 
Dr.Traveler said:
Ummm.......

In case I'm missing something, shouldn't we start with the Uber metagame as is? Then we can use results from the existing Uber metagame to figure out what to ban out to "Ultra-Uber" or "Legendary". This lets you create a middle ground between OU and Uber that could replace OU naturally if it really is that much better.
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Why not make a Borderline Uber (BLU) tier? It'd allow some ubers in OU while keeping the original OU tier intact.
 
Aeroblacktyl said:
I'm pretty sure IB does a shitload without Tail Glow
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Yeah, but Crobat gets Hypnosis.

As I was saying earlier, we could do that and combine OU and BL while putting the big OU threats into ubers permanatly. Or, we can continue to make sub-divisions like that until we have 2 Pokémon a sub-tier in übers.
 
The only pokemon we should consider testing are

Manaphy
Deoxys-D
Latis w/o Soul Dew
Wobuffet
Mew

All the others have retardedly high stats and do not belong in OU.
 
Go back a page and read my post about borderline Uber

I don't see why people think Latios with no Soul Dew is in any way fair. It's like Gengar, except significantly bulkier and with generally better typing. It makes one of the games best Calm Minders. Also, it doesn't have to use the weird Uber moveset of Grass Knot//Dragon Pulse//Calm Mind//Recover. It knows other stuff. It's also a better SpecsMence with Draco Meteor//Dragon Pulse//Hidden Power [Fire]//Grass Knot.

Deoxys-D is like Cresselia with lower HP that can heal itself, spike, and is also the best toxic staller in the game.

Go play against a Wobbuffet, have fun
 
Phox said:
Go back a page and read my post about borderline Uber

I don't see why people think Latios with no Soul Dew is in any way fair. It's like Gengar, except significantly bulkier and with generally better typing. It makes one of the games best Calm Minders. Also, it doesn't have to use the weird Uber moveset of Grass Knot//Dragon Pulse//Calm Mind//Recover. It knows other stuff.
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Explain in what way Latios is like Gengar, because I don't follow.

They're kinda, completely different in every way possible, different movepool, different typing, etc. Just because they have the same special attack and speed, it doesn't make them similar. Gengar doesn't even get Calm Mind, he's usually an all-out attacker, while Latios boosts up with Calm Mind and such, and can't put things to sleep.
 
If you said Latios was like Salamence, I'd agree with you. But Gengar is stretching it, unless you mean the Pursuit weakness.

I can agree on some being moved down. I've had my placement on Manaphy staying Uber however (don't attempt to bring it into this topic) and perhaps Wobbuffet could have a test on OU again. But to me some of the others are stretching it. Mew would outclass Celebi in terms of Baton Passing, Darkrai would be generally a better Gengar (of course the lack of resistances hurt other than resisting Pursuit), Lugia is a generally more reliable Cresselia, same argument with Deoxys-D, Giratina is a godly wall, Dialga has to be the best mixed sweeper in the game, Arcues is near impossible to counter in the first place, Kyogre / Groudon would be pretty broken IMO, Palkia is a definate no-no, etc.

The real problem is is that if we introduce more Ubers into the OU metagame, it could cause a lot of shifting. First off, we'd have to basically re-work counters, have different movesets, rethinking of walls, and even rethinking of sweepers. Dialga outclasses Salamence in the mixed department, Mewtwo is one of the best Calm Mind + Taunt users in the game, Darkrai with Dark Void does hamper a lot of teams (especially in double battles, oh God that's a nightmare)...

It would hurt more than help. To me, they're Uber for a reason, and should generally stay that way. Some could be tested if they seem feesable enough in OU (like Deoxys-S) but some should stay where they are (like Mew).
 
Part of the reason Salamence does well is that it hits hard from both the special and physical sides, which the Lati twins can't do effectively.

But having a neverending Rain causing ability like Kyogre's without Groudon's ability to cause balance is unfair. Lugia can also hit from both sides very effectively, and has incredibly fantastic amazing defenses. Giratina is just too hard to get rid of.
 
Unless they rework the tier definitions, that'd be by accident. BL isn't meant to be a balanced tier on its own apart from OU. OU is basically a glorified 'threat list' for the standard 'tier', which is OU+BL.
 
Dragontamer said:
*On Ho-oh*
Death of Moltres and Charizard right there. I'd assume this would kill Arcanine, Entei and just about every other BL / UU Fire Type there is.
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But doesn't Garchomp make a lot of Ground pokemon redundant? Doesn't he have as many solid counters as Ho-oh? Ho-ohs STAB is resisted against Fire, Water, Rock and Dragons, while Garchomps STAB is resisted by two pokemon in Skarmony and Bronzong. While Ho-oh's attack is resisted by 35% of OU, Garchomp is resisted by 2%. While Ho-oh's attack inflicts burn 50% of the time, Garchomps has 100% accuracy.

Ho-oh's base speed is 90, Charizard still has a place solely because of that, different movepools and attacks also make up for the difference.

Doesn't Azelf make a lot of special sweepers redundant? I rarely see Alakazams anymore.

Doesn't Cress make a lot of other walls redundant? If Deoxys D is defensively weaker then Cress, shouldn't we add him for diversity? I don't know how many people complain about seeing Blissy...

With Darkrai/Gengar, There are so many sleep inducing pokemon already. People say his sleep move is broken, but it only has 10% more accuracy then Hypnosis, I don't see how that changes things too much. I also don't see how CM Darkrai would be any harder to counter then CM Raikou, if you miss play Raikou, he sweeps, same with Darkrai.

A lot of what I've been reading here is people just saying "They don't like it, therefore, it is overpowered", however I bet they love using their Garchomps and Azelfs and not having a worry in the world, because they're already settled into a metagame.

What Obi is suggesting is to not Uberise standard play, but to question what an uber really is. He doesn't want to just add ubers to OU, but to get rid of our preconceptions that ubers are too good just because they always have been separated from OU. Some ubers, if given the chance to prove themselves in an environment that is open to others that are stronger, we could see a deeper metagame then we could ever of imagined.

It feels like everyone in this thread are medieval Christians, and Obi's claiming the world is flat.
 
It feels like everyone in this thread are medieval Christians, and Obi's claiming the world is flat.
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Unnecessary.

The best concept in this thread is the difference between high-ubers and low-ubers. If we can define this, we can get to trying low-ubers in OU play and possibly unbanning them. High-ubers have no point in being tested since they will obviously comp-stomp everything into the ground.
 
I agree with Obi in spirit and am always strongly in favor of more testing but am baffled by the placement of Groudon above Kyogre.

(I have long advocated a similar if somewhat more extreme position)
 
The issue is that all ubers are not created equal and separating those that could possibly be OU from the obviously banned is not an easy task. So far a consesus has not been reached about most pokemon, save a select few that are going to stay in ubers (Mewtwo, Giratina,Rayquaza.)
 
Raikou said:
Actually, I use just as many BL pokes as OU on my teams and I've never touched Blissey or Garchomp. People like me have more to be concerned about with the unbanning of ubers, because people who play to win with the most powerful options available don't care if ubers are unbanned, they'll just whore them like they whore their Garchomps and Blisseys now. People like me will have to kick the Sceptiles, Arcanines, Raikous, Blazikens, Espeons, etc. off our teams because they may just cut it in the current OU, but there's no way they would against ubers. It shifts everything up a tier and makes playing with diversity, or with favorites over whored pokes, nearly impossible- unless your favorites pokes are ubers, in which case please play the uber metagame, it's that way. --------->
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It indeed hinders versatility if those BLs suddendly become unplayable, that is a good point. However, you are indeed using somewhat novel choices in a game often played to win, so it really isn't your place to complain about people dragging the wrong Pokemon into the wrong environment. Admittedly, this would be a better point if we had a BL metagame.

I really don't care much for this little debate anymore though because it's full of crap on both sides.
 
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