What is uber?

[X-Act]

This is a good post insofar as the metagame is concerned, as we are honestly at a bit of a mess about what is allowed in OU right now.

I would just like to say that if a Pokemon does not overpower ubers, then it doesn't mean that it is OU. Just like if a Pokemon does not overpower OU, it doesn't mean it is UU.

Sets that are not that effective in ubers might be very effective in OU. This is why I support that things be tested out.

However, even though you said not to mention theorymon, I'm going to say that a Life Orb Kyogre with Brick Break/Ice Beam/Thunder/(Surf or Hydro Pump) 2HKOes everything except Shedinja and _maybe_ a few of the uber debatables, which could be taken care of by your other 5 Pokemon in your team.

 

[evolutia]

Manaphy: Could theoretically fit in OU, but is obviously overpowering in Uber with Kyogre. Tail Glow+Surf is just wrong, and Base 100 stats means it's as bad as Jirachi or Celebi. Could lead to a rise in Rain Dance-oriented teams if in OU to abuse Hydration, but with T-tar/Hippo and Aboma running around, any other weather-based team is hard to set up anyways.

I would agree with you there. The combination of Kyogre + Manaphy would completely overwhelm the OU Metagame. Kyogre can already power over almost every single pokemon in the OU Meta (I can only think of Blissey and Ludicolo that have the potential to hold it a bay for a while). Unlimited Rain combo'd with Hydration get's rid of on of Manaphy's main problems; by itself rain is limited.

I would suspect that with a Manaphy unbanning many teams would like to try out an all out rain dance team, but with Tyranitar, Hippo and Aboma with the ability to create unlimited weather I would suspect that would pose a major problem to those creating a rain dance team as the rain isn't unlimited.

Tail Glow+Surf is an amazing combo but until it's counters are worn down (See any sweeper) I don't see it doing major damage to a team (Unless of course their special wall is killed but there are other special sweepers in OU that I believe can take advantage of a dead special wall equal or even better than Manaphy).

I will perhaps tackle some of the other pokemon later on today, but I will touch a little on Darkrai. From what I gather Darkrai is hard to handle even in the uber enviroment due to it's sleeping move taking out a potential counter.

 

[DevilinDenial]

Manaphy
Mew
Ho-oh
Palkia
Dialga
Darkrai
Deoxys-D
Kyogre
Wobbuffet
Lugia

Kyogre will get one mention, and that is to say that infinite Rain in any team will not only make things like Azumarill and Gyarados unbeatable, it will make Fire types unusable, and other than the X-Act and others have pointed out anything of importance.

Out of the whole list, the most stable thing on it is Manaphy, and that's only if it and it alone is unbanned. Manaphy has had tons of threads about it and standard and it's almost unfair not to give it another chance, since all tests made were pre-metagame.

Wobbuffet has been tested and tested and tested and can be tested until Nintendo gives Flareon Arceus stats and a movepool to match, but at the end of the day Wobbuffet takes away the best move in the game,(Switching) ties that together with another game-breaking move(Encore) and can set up anything it wants. While the U-Turn/Ghost argument cna be made, Wobb comes in when it wants to, not when it's in danger. In fact, Wobb is even frowned upon in Ubers, so what even gives the thought of standard? 200 Play never wore off on many players.

Lugia and Ho-Oh are tied close enough that you can bring them together in lastability. Simply put, they don't die to anything. You thought Hippowdon was hard to bring down, but Lugia is ridiculous, being able to stall far harder hitters. Garchomp and Salamence wold never be the same again from either side of the spectrum. Ho-Oh is a bastard, it only needs to come in once to wreak total havok, even with Stealth Rock. 130 Attack is nothing to joke with, especially with the best Fire attack in the game. Their ability to wall and attack are crazy, don't forget Lugia's Aeroblast or Psycho Boost.

Palkia and Dialga, both can be seen from either side of the threat spectrum, and both can change the way games are played. You thought taking Heatran's Specs'd attacks were hard? Try 150 base power over 130 and more diversity. I like that Dialga can wall just about anything without a powerful EarthQuake and that Palkia can be a Bulky Water if need be.

Deoxys-D would serve well in OU, actually, walling several threats, but let's not forget that it can actually do something, setting up on weak attackers, and draining PP with Recover and Pressure. The issue is that nothing can really take it out without risking a diverse Deoxys move. It has Attacking potential, amazingly enough, and the bitching would never end. Let's not forget Taunt either.

Darkrai is where it gets scary. Jump always mentioned Luna, perhaps the scariest sweeper there is, in comparison to Darkrai, who has all the improvements Jynx wishes it had. If after 2 Calm Minds you 2HKO everything with like 115 base Special Attack, the after 2 with 135, things just die with no chance. Darkrai's Ability alone can make it a threat, the things you team up with it make it nearly unstoppable. Choice Scarf isn't scary when you can put them to sleep or KO them regardless, and Darkrai has the defense to take a hit to KO back. It would be too scary, to deadly, to overpowering to let into OU and not overcentralize.

The only things I see not completely overcentralizing the game are Manaphy and Deoxys-D, who can and will change the style of it. I wouldn't mind testing things like Ho-Oh or Manaphy, and personally, even Darkrai, but everything else is just begging for overcentralization and endless bitching.

 

[Twilight_Vaizard]

That leaves the following Pokemon that are currently marked as uber:

Manaphy
Mew
Ho-oh
Palkia
Dialga
Darkrai
Deoxys-D
Kyogre
Wobbuffet
Lugia

Now, I have my suspicions that Lugia, Mew, and Palkia would also turn out to be uber for sure. However, I haven't found them to be too overpowering in the current uber environment.

The proper way to go about this is to decide on all the Pokemon that are necessarily uber, and allow the rest all at once. You cannot get an accurate depiction of how they will work any other way. If the ultimate game might include X, Y, and Z Pokemon, and you allow them one at a time, that's not an accurate portrayal of how they will actually work.

Manaphy-I agree with you here. Manaphy is way to weak to be an uber. It only works well in rain dance teams, and in the OU environment rain is not permanent, and Tyranitar and Hippowdon ruins it completely. Manaphy's stats also aren't that great, and its only two noteworthy moves are tail glow and heart swap. Heart swap can be really nice against any pokemon that bulks up with stat boosts, so it can easily ruin ninjask BP leads. Other than that, it completely deserves OU.

The rest of the list...just no. Except for maybe Wobbuffet.

Kyogre is a beast. With choice scarf it can outspeed the vast majority of OU pokemon and deal lots of damage with water spout or surf. Hell, it can freakin 2HKO a Blissey. And let's not forget how it can also freely thunder its way through many pokemon as well.

Of course you could always just go with bulky Kyogre so that you can set up with calm mind so that no special wall stands in your way.

Mew is debatable, but I think its very large movepool makes it deserve the spot of uber.

Lugia is one of the best walls in the game with high special defense, defense, and HP. I don't see why you don't think it should be uber.

Palkia only has one weakness, very high stats and an extremely large movepool.

Darkrai? you've got to be joking. Darkrai is one of the best pokemon in the game. It outspeeds almost everybody, and if you sash it, it can prove to be the ultimate monster. Even with sleep clause, you can still easily destroy any pokemon with Dark Void+Nightmare. There is no real counter to darkrai that I can think of, except for Deoxys, but like I said, sashed Darkrai can survive any attack and hit anyone back very hard. This is what I would call uber material.

 

[Gemerl]

@ those Manaphy & Kyogre guys

Manaphy & Kyogre = Walrein & Abomasnow

No. Walrein can't rest without penalty like Manaphy, nor can it sweep anywhere NEAR as well as Manaphy. And Kyogre lacks the amount of Abomasnow's weaknesses, and has much better stats all around. And, rain is much more beneficial imo than hail. Hail limits usable pokemon a bit... as it only benefits a handful of pokemon (The ice type, which is also a horrible defensive type)

To be honest, I think most of the ubers should stay uber, except for perhaps Manaphy. I mean, without Kyogre's permanent rain, it will need some other pokemon to set up rain for it, or will need to waste a moveslot for Rain Dance, which wouldn't be too good. And with the largely felt presence of Tyranitar, setting up rain and KEEPING it in play would be quite a pain. It is a great sweeper, but not uncounterable. Manaphy should be tested a bit...

And to those saying Mew should be unbanned, think for a moment. It is so versatile, its ridiculous. It can baton pass ANY +2 stat. And it makes a horrific sweeper on either end of the spectrum as well, what with its gigantic offensive movepool as well. Sure, Psychic is not a great defensive typing, but 100/100/100 defenses ease that.

 

[Lyfsaho]

Mew is debatable, but I think its very large movepool makes it deserve the spot of uber.

Based on your criteria, Smeargle says hi.

Lugia is one of the best walls in the game with high special defense, defense, and HP. I don't see why you don't think it should be uber.

Again, Cresselia says hai.

Wobbuffet has been tested and tested and tested and can be tested until Nintendo gives Flareon Arceus stats and a movepool to match, but at the end of the day Wobbuffet takes away the best move in the game,(Switching) ties that together with another game-breaking move(Encore) and can set up anything it wants.

Erm... Wobbuffet has never been adequately tested in d/p. Never, not once. It has had a period in adv where it was, but then again, in ADV Curselax was a god among mortals and mixed sweepers where as common as pikachu.

Oh, and the best move in the game is Spore, hands down.

Lugia and Ho-Oh are tied close enough that you can bring them together in lastability. Simply put, they don't die to anything. You thought Hippowdon was hard to bring down, but Lugia is ridiculous, being able to stall far harder hitters.

Wrong statement. Lugia is hard to bring down. Ho-oh? Hard to bring down? you do realize he dies from switching in twice into Stealth Rock? And isn't insanely fast?

Lugia is indeed very hard to bring down, but then again, so is Cresselia. The difference between both of them lies in what Lugia can do offensively.

Deoxys-D would serve well in OU, actually, walling several threats, but let's not forget that it can actually do something, setting up on weak attackers, and draining PP with Recover and Pressure. The issue is that nothing can really take it out without risking a diverse Deoxys move. It has Attacking potential, amazingly enough, and the bitching would never end. Let's not forget Taunt either.

Here you're partly right, particularly in your first sentence. But let's also not forget his max hp is 304.

 

[Suburvia]

Just one small thing to add about Kyogre:

"BLISSEY WALLZ IT!!1111!!"

No, it doesn't. Choice Specs Water Spout in the Rain is a 2HKO on 252 HP/252 SpD Blissey 100% of the time. See that? The best Special Wall in the game is 2HKOd by Kyogre 100% of the time, which means just about everything that doesn't 4x resist it or 2x resist it with huge SpD is OHKOd effortlessly. If that doesn't scream Uber, I don't know what does. I don't think it even warrants testing.

 

[evolutia]

If Mew wouldn't of learned "Baton Pass" then maybe I'd lean more towards it being OU this generation. With Baton Pass + Any stat up move of your choice it seems broken. Phazers can't touch it while it stats up due to taunt. Any other counter get's put to sleep, afterwards Mew can either stat up again or bp to a pokemon to take advantage of those stats.

 

[sanjay120]

Posting to say Obi has the right idea. Unban everything, then ban everything that's overcentralizing.

I've never actually had a problem with Darkrai in Ubers. Standard mixed would sleep anything but Mewtwo, fail to 2HKO Mewtwo, get OHKOed by Mewtwo. Standard CM would sleep anything but Blissey and then fall to CMBliss. Alone, I agree it's way too powerful. But quite a few Ubers counter it.

Just speaking from experience please don't flame me.

 

[Cooper]

The problem I see with stating that "weak Ubers belong in OU" is that just because something is weak in one tier doesn't mean it should go in another. I see weak Ubers as being in a sort of BL status: too weak for Uber, too strong for OU.

Look at Manaphy: it doesn't have the offensive or defensive stats to be a threat in Ubers. It needs a Tail Glow to get going, and while it's doing that, you'll be 100% accurate Thundering it to hell. But when you bring it down to OU, you lose the sheer volume of pokemon that know thunder typically. You get Thunderbolt and standards who are slower, which means 100% Resting and Tail Glow. People defend it with "Oh, Hippowdon/Tyranitar comes in and screws it up," but sadly, those two are not resistant to a boosted Surf.

Now, I don't know the stats of other debated pokemon like Ho-oh or Dialga, but I do know that we shouldn't be asking which pokemon are too weak for Ubers, but rather which pokemon are too strong for OU.

 

[evolutia]

The problem I see with stating that "weak Ubers belong in OU" is that just because something is weak in one tier doesn't mean it should go in another. I see weak Ubers as being in a sort of BL status: too weak for Uber, too strong for OU.

Look at Manaphy: it doesn't have the offensive or defensive stats to be a threat in Ubers. It needs a Tail Glow to get going, and while it's doing that, you'll be 100% accurate Thundering it to hell. But when you bring it down to OU, you lose the sheer volume of pokemon that know thunder typically. You get Thunderbolt and standards who are slower, which means 100% Resting and Tail Glow. People defend it with "Oh, Hippowdon/Tyranitar comes in and screws it up," but sadly, those two are not resistant to a boosted Surf.

Now, I don't know the stats of other debated pokemon like Ho-oh or Dialga, but I do know that we shouldn't be asking which pokemon are too weak for Ubers, but rather which pokemon are too strong for OU.

I agree with the bolded part. Now moving on to what you said about Manaphy. "which means 100% Resting and Tail Glow" A set like that only leaves one attacking move which will almost always be Surf. A set like that doesn't seem uncounterable to me. (Infact I posted several counters to it, in the other thread).

"People defend it with "Oh Hippowdon/Tyranitar comes in and screws it up, but sadly, those two are not resistant to a boosted Surf"

Is Manaphy now immune to prediction? If either of them come in a predicted rest Manaphy is done for. There are several pokemon in the OU metagame right now that are "only" countered by prediction. Should those pokemon be banned? If Manaphy was in Ou bringing with it the prevalence of Rain Dance teams, why not take advantage of that by using thunder over thunderbolt, by using pokemon that take advantage of the rain?

Manaphy has a key moveslot problem when it comes to choosing it's last move, will I choose Ice beam and be walled by this or grass knot and be walled by that? Will I choose to become an all-out sweeper than cannot sweep until my counters are gone (see any sweeper in the game). Will I choose to a more defensive route and not harm anything?

 

[Twilight_Vaizard]

Based on your criteria, Smeargle says hi.
Again, Cresselia says hai.

Does Smeargle have overall decent stats? No, I don't think so.


And for Cresselia, what is its special defense again? I think it's...394 max. And what is Lugia's max special defense? That's right, 447.

And of course, like you said, Lugia also can serve some offensive purpose. Also, the move Roost gets rid of two of its weaknesses.

 

[sanjay120]

For the last time Manaphy is not Uber because of Hydration. It's Ube because of Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Rope.

Counter that.

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

For the last time Manaphy is not Uber because of Hydration. It's Ube because of Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Rope.

Counter that.

If you look at the top of the page I did. ABAMASNOW COUNTERS IT. Resists Surf/Grass Knot and only takes neutral from Ice Beam, which doesn't 2HKO.

Add STAB SE Wood Hammer to that and the ability to screw up rain, and I'd think that actually defines the word counter.

Edit: Oh, and 252HP Ttar only takes 47-55% from a 252Modest Manaphy Surf in sand. Not great, but also not a KO.

 

[evolutia]

For the last time Manaphy is not Uber because of Hydration. It's Ube because of Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Rope.

Counter that.

If I were to use a set like that, I would wait until my foes counters are worn down as Manaphy has nothing to restore it's lost HP before setting up to sweep.

Abamasnow and CM Blissey counter that set 100% as well as grass pokemon powered up with CG attacks who can come in on two of it's moves. Electric Pokemon who can come in on a Tail Glow and threaten Manaphy with Thunderbolt/Thunder.

Those pokemon are the first things that come to mind when dealing with such a Manaphy set. I'm sure now that the metagame has been established since Manaphy was first tested even more counters will arise.

Looking at those counters which number more than 2, I don't see it anymore threatening than Tyranitar, Salamence or Garchomp.

Also I'm curious as to what person would switch this type of Manaphy in on? It really cannot afford to take damage now that it doesn't have a recovery move. It can be effected by status (Unless their is a rain dancer on the team, and that doesn't last forever or be advisable to use unless Manaphy's counters are gone).

 

[DevilinDenial]

3 weaknesses actually, Ice, Electric and Rock.

Spore is not the best move in the game, although one of the best, because Sleep is not permanant, infact, there's a chance you wake up turn 1. With Sleep Clause Spore is so limited that it's still a great move, but not a perfect one. Switching, however, is not limited by Clauses or Pokemon that can do it, in most cases. If you can't switch you can't counter, and if you can't counter then you can't defend, and if you can't defend then every match is a slugfest. Wobboffet will almost be undoubtedly banned if it's taken out of Ubers.

Being insanely fast has nothing to do with walling. Roost, Pressure, 106 HP/90 Def/154 SpDef and both Screens allows Ho-Oh to come in, Roost off damage, drain PP and reduce damage to itself all the while dishing out a 130 base attack 100 base power move that Burns half the time, potentially stopping things like Tyranitar and Aerodactyl. Ho-Oh walls Heatran, Mixed Infernape, Mixed Salamence and ChainChomp, Lucario, Roserade and Weavile easily, most of them only able to do 40%, which can be Roosted Off, and KO back most with Sacred Fire and EarthQuake. All of this while only needing 24 EVs to assure that it's never outspeed by most CBTyranitar.(And therefore able to Roost before a Stone Edge and drain it's PP in 4 turns) This walls walls as well. Ho-Oh only needs one Poke to clear Stealth Rock, it can easily face down the Rapid Spin blockers, and beats SRers like Hippowdon(Almost never carry SE) and Skarmory and Gliscor. Ho-Oh ca't even be 2HKOed by most Bulky Waters that wall it.

The reason a Pokemon is Uber'ed is because they're just too good, and begin to overcentralize the metagame, with everyone either trying to counter it or use it. As of now, Deoxys-S is yet to do that, and it is not proven that any of these(Except maybe Wobboffet and Kyogre) would do that. I agree that just about all of these need to be tested.

Sanjay, how does Darkrai fail to 2HKO Mewtwo? Even max/max Calm Mewtwo takes 62% minimum from Life Orbed Darkrai.

Manphy once again faces how the hell do I switch in-itis. Ludicolo, Empoleon, Vaporeon(Toxic), and Raikou all counter this as well, but since they're less common, would that be overcentralization? When you think about it, no, Raikou, Empoleon and Vaporeon are all good on their own.

 

[éyaang]

Only unban Manaphy and Deoxys-(S/D) I say.

Manaphy is not more uncounterable then, say, Mence or Ape, and stands no chance against Tyranitar, Abomasnow, Hippowdon, Blissey, Shedinja, the opposing Manaphy, Vaporeon or even Ludicolo.

Deoxys-S is unbanned on Shoddy and there is this thing called prediction. Spiritomb, Cresselia, Metagross, Jirachi are decent counters. Furthermore Deoxys-D stops it cold.

Deoxys-D has too low HP and Taunt screws it over. It does nothing that Cress cannot. It stops Deoxys-S, Infernape and the opposing Deoxys-D in its tracks. And lol 4-moveslot syndrome.

 

[Dragontamer]

Hidden Power Fighting what the fuck, Thunderbolt would do more.

With all of these at once

--snip--

They might be able to balance each other out, but the amount of other Pokemon that could compete would probably be pretty damn low compared to what we have now. Every Pokemon is now hurt more by moveslot syndrome and 6 slots in your team as it is now already isn't enough to moderately cover you against the most predictable and obvious sweepers such as Salamence and Tyranitar.

The problem of putting a bunch of pokemon into the metagame at once is that we no longer have OU as we know it, but we are transforming OU to an entirely new metagame. I don't doubt that they would balance each other out, but you'd also cut out the bottom OU pokemon while you bring in new pokemon. (If manaphy is in, I can almost guarentee that Tentacruel will be moving out. Manaphy weighs so little that Grass Knot doesn't hurt, has similar sp.defenses and more physical def).

If the end goal is to increase diversity in OU (or whatever the new metagame would be), we should consider what would happen to the lesser OU pokemon. If we are aiming to create a new metagame, there is no reason to worry at all, we just need to come up with a new name for it.

Basically: I'm up for unbanning most of them in a new metagame called Super-OU or something. But if all of these powerful pokemon come in at once, we don't have OU anymore, really, we don't.

If you look at the top of the page I did. ABAMASNOW COUNTERS IT. Resists Surf/Grass Knot and only takes neutral from Ice Beam, which doesn't 2HKO.

Add STAB SE Wood Hammer to that and the ability to screw up rain, and I'd think that actually defines the word counter.

Edit: Oh, and 252HP Ttar only takes 47-55% from a 252Modest Manaphy Surf in sand. Not great, but also not a KO.

Manaphy before didn't have to worry about Abomasnow. Now hail has proven itself to be at least better than a UU strategy, so I can see Abomasnow trying to counter Manaphy.

However, like I said in the other thread, all Manaphy has to do to stop Abomasnow is run Blizzard. Blizzard 2-hit KOs Abomasnow, OHKOs after LO Tail Glow. Hell, I'd use Manaphy on a HAIL team considering its typing and move-pool.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Deoxys-D has too low HP and Taunt screws it over. It does nothing that Cress cannot.

Cresselia doesn't learn Spikes or Recover. I would call that "something". Deoxys-D does have low HP, but stats are multiplied in pokemon, not added. (see also at: Shuckle)

 

[Rumpelstiltskin]

@ Dragontamer: What stats are you using? Even with Life Orb, I'm only getting 35-41% from a 252Modest Blizzard on the standard mix attacker lead. (160SpD EVs, Sassy Nature). Maybe I'm forgetting something.

 

[Bogmire]

Only unban Manaphy and Deoxys-(S/D) I say.

Manaphy is not more uncounterable then, say, Mence or Ape, and stands no chance against Tyranitar, Abomasnow, Hippowdon, Blissey, Shedinja, the opposing Manaphy, Vaporeon or even Ludicolo.

Deoxys-S is unbanned on Shoddy and there is this thing called prediction. Spiritomb, Cresselia, Metagross, Jirachi are decent counters. Furthermore Deoxys-D stops it cold.

Deoxys-D has too low HP and Taunt screws it over. It does nothing that Cress cannot. It stops Deoxys-S, Infernape and the opposing Deoxys-D in its tracks. And lol 4-moveslot syndrome.

what the hell? deoxys-d does so much more than cress can. and although it has lower hp it also has higher base defences. It can set up spikes, stealth rock, recover, taunt, cosmic power, knock off, agility, and thunderbolt gyarados to hell. All things cress can't do.

 

[evolutia]

If the end goal is to increase diversity in OU (or whatever the new metagame would be), we should consider what would happen to the lesser OU pokemon. If we are aiming to create a new metagame, there is no reason to worry at all, we just need to come up with a new name for it.

Diversity in the current OU metagame is already stifling. Would banning any of the pokemon that cause this stifling effect change the metagame for the better?

My goal with my Manaphy arguments is that it be tested again, and if it does create a stifling effect then it should be banned, and perhaps others should follow as well.

 

[Dragontamer]

Lets do this a bit more objectively?

Defense Tiers:
Deoxys-D 119.19 119.19 123.33 123.33
Cresselia 121.32 122.06 125.08 125.69

SkarmCents:
Deoxys-D 62 78 73 92 101
Cresselia 76 88 93 108 119

BlissCents:
Deoxys-D 39 50 46 58 64
Cresselia 52 60 63 73 80

252 HP Cresselia beats 252 HP Deoxys-D by 10 BlissCents, and by 10 SkarmCents. Max/Max Cresselia beats Deoxys by ~2 Defense Tiers on both sides.

Cresselia is statistically a stronger wall. Moonlight however has low PP and doesn't work in hail, rain or sandstorm very well. Deoxys has access to Recover himself.

@ Dragontamer: What stats are you using? Even with Life Orb, I'm only getting 35-41% from a 252Modest Blizzard on the standard mix attacker lead. (160SpD EVs, Sassy Nature). Maybe I'm forgetting something.

Well... Abomasnow is a crappy lead in my opinion. But -Speed on a lead? +Speed to outrun adamant Breloom so he doesn't shut down your team (and to outrun and OHKO with Blizzard). Anyway, I was using 160 Sp. Def EVs, but no +Nature in Sp. Def. Manaphy does 93.15% - 109.66% with this. Never thought you'd run Sassy on top of that.

Regardless, the mixed set listed on Smogon Analysis fails to OHKO Manaphy, even with Hail (dealing a max of 92% damage). This leaves Manaphy another turn to Blizzard / Surf. Manaphy still wins against that set (or ties, as it kills itself with LO) Not really a counter. There is a small chance you kill with Wood Hammer (78.89% - 92.67%, Manaphy loses 10% to LO and 6% to hail), but typically speaking, we're looking at a tie.

 

[Xênaz]

Hm... I understand the point of testing multiple Pokémon at once, but in doing so we're admitting that it is necessary to use this Pokémon to counter that Pokémon, correct? All the current Pokémon that are being used would be scarce considering they would either be A) to weak or B) unable to take a hit from the other likes of Pokémon.

To find if a Pokémon is deserving of non-Uber status, IMO it would require testing it alone in OU and then with its Uber counter. Then you could examine if they over-centralize the metagame too much and make a final decision. But to do this with all these Pokémon would take just so long. That is why (puts up flame-shield) I feel we should just leave the tiers and the metagame the way it is.

 

[evolutia]

Hm... I understand the point of testing multiple Pokémon at once, but in doing so we're admitting that it is necessary to use this Pokémon to counter that Pokémon, correct? All the current Pokémon that are being used would be scarce considering they would either be A) to weak or B) unable to take a hit from the other likes of Pokémon.

To find if a Pokémon is deserving of non-Uber status, IMO it would require testing it alone in OU and then with its Uber counter. Then you could examine if they over-centralize the metagame too much and make a final decision. But to do this with all these Pokémon would take just so long. That is why (puts up flame-shield) I feel we should just leave the tiers and the metagame the way it is.

The metagame is always changing; so by your own logic if something is found to be broken in the OU tier it should just stay there and continue to stifle the metagame? There are several pokemon that are already been proven to have a stifling effect on the metagame.

I feel that changes may have to occur within the OU metagame for a better game overall. Why wouldn't you want to have a better game?