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What is uber?
- Thread starter obi
- Start date
Manaphy has in fact several viable counters in the metagame; the question is if enough of these are usable for other things and don't cause an overcentralization. Here you go, Manaphy counters:
CMBliss
Tentacruel (w/ Mirror Coat)
CMKou
Abomasnow
Mantine (w/ Mirror Coat)
Ludicolo
These would be solid counters considering that Manaphy is running Surf, Ice Beam and Energy Ball. This leaves only one move slot open, presumably for Tail Glow. Meaning it can't heal itself at all.
I used to run a Tail Glow/Surf/Ice Beam/Grass Rope Manaphy. 252 HP/252 SAttk/4 Spd, Modest @ Leftovers.
It was broken.
Abomasnow is a shaky counter at best, CMKou/Bliss are good, Mantine is shit, Tenta doesn't usually run Mirror Coat and I'm not sure if it can survive +6 Energy Ball/Grass Knot or stop Manaphy form setting up, Ludicolo might work.
It was broken.
Abomasnow is a shaky counter at best, CMKou/Bliss are good, Mantine is shit, Tenta doesn't usually run Mirror Coat and I'm not sure if it can survive +6 Energy Ball/Grass Knot or stop Manaphy form setting up, Ludicolo might work.
See, I think the game is great the way it is. Better is such a subjective term... I think it is better to dip French Fries in Teriaki Sauce as opposed to Ketchup, but that doesn't mean everyone shares that same opinion (seriously, try it. fucking delicious if the sauce is good). If it comes to a point where Tyranitar or Salamence or the like of is just destroying the Metagame, then by all means we can see if it is less fun without them in it. A lot of times in these discussions, it seems like people lose track of what the main purpose of the game is: to have fun. Even though fun is a subjective term and I am slightly contradicting myself, if you look at a lot of the Uber discussions people get so warped into what COULD work and what MIGHT stop it that you lose sight of the point of a game.
But eh, if people decide to play it one way then so be it. I just don't think moving any of the ubers down will cause anything but more shit to worry about. I don't think it will make the game more fun.
What can that Tail Glow set switch in on? The more damage it takes the less of a chance it's going to sweep. I think Manaphy needs to be tested, so we'll know once and for all if it's uber or not. Manaphy has more counters than some other pokemon that are allowed in OU right now.
Please don't bring up the previous Manaphy testing because the metagame is alot more stable now than it was before when it was first tested.
Who outright disagrees with a test of Manaphy?
Please don't bring up the previous Manaphy testing because the metagame is alot more stable now than it was before when it was first tested.
Who outright disagrees with a test of Manaphy?
I feel that the last 3 or so pokemon in the Pokedex of a new gen are automatically marked as unusable, and are only good to look at or admire.
A little testing into this may well reveal that these pokemon are happily fitting into OU. I mean, you have the Base-600 'faries' in each gen:
If you think because they have 100 across the board makes them uber, look at pseudo-legends like the base-600 Dragons and Regigigas/Slaking. This shows huge Base Stats can be hindered by ability, if not for that, they would be uber.
I think Shaymin needs looking over. The big monstrosities like Groudon, Diaglia are shoved in uber because of where they come in the Pokedex, and perhaps more research is needed.
Some pokemon are obvious, like Mewtwo, Deoxys-A and Arecus.
But some need another look.
A little testing into this may well reveal that these pokemon are happily fitting into OU. I mean, you have the Base-600 'faries' in each gen:
- Mew
- Celebi
- Jirachi
- Manaphy
- Shaymin
If you think because they have 100 across the board makes them uber, look at pseudo-legends like the base-600 Dragons and Regigigas/Slaking. This shows huge Base Stats can be hindered by ability, if not for that, they would be uber.
I think Shaymin needs looking over. The big monstrosities like Groudon, Diaglia are shoved in uber because of where they come in the Pokedex, and perhaps more research is needed.
Some pokemon are obvious, like Mewtwo, Deoxys-A and Arecus.
But some need another look.
Despite the fact that the entire thread is premised on the idea that you don't look at each Pokemon in isolation, and that you have to justify banning and not unbanning, people keep posting as though this were a "which of these single Pokemon should be unbanned?". If you don't get the thread, don't post in it.
You don't just look at Kyogre and say "OK it can kill Blissey in 2 hits under the right conditions and weakens Fire moves" and then look at Ho-oh and say "Well, it has a powerful Fire move" and then look at all this new offense and complain about not having any walls, and in the same breath claim that Deoxys-D and Lugia wall too much stuff.
The point is yes, I had some reservations about Palkia and Kyogre. But they weren't certainties, and so I put them up for possible testing. Saying something ought to be tested is not the equivalent of saying it's not uber, but rather, that there's a chance it isn't.
To those of you who say "Kyogre is uber because you need a Water resist to take it on!", consider Garchomp. It's the second most used Pokemon in OU, and to take it on, you need a Ground AND a Dragon resist, and if it catches your Skarmory or Bronzong with a Fire move you could be in big trouble. I think having Lapras and Dugtrio for Kyogre isn't nearly as big of a deal as having Body Slam Jirachi, HP Ice Celebi, and Ice Fang Gyarados for Garchomp (and still getting screwed by a CH / Sand Veil miss).
I was originally in the camp that Deoxys-D is pretty solidly uber, but someone said something that realy made me think. Several of the Pokemon people use to take on Cresselia would still take on Deoxys-D. There would be fewer old OU Pokemon, but with all these new Pokemon, it isn't as good.
"Ho-oh is too good because of Sacred Fire!". Again, consider Garchomp. Sacred Fire has 8 PP, 95% accuracy, 100 power, and 50% burn. If Kyogre is allowed, this is suddenly the equivalent of 50 power. If we just remove Kyogre, there's still potentially Manaphy, Palkia, Lugia (4 PP Sacred Fire with Pressure? yes please), Milotic (who just LOVES that Burn), Heatran for Choice versions, and the ever present Stealth Rock dropping it down by 50% each turn. Garchomp's moves have high enough PP to mostly be irrelevant, double useful STAB, and the only Pokemon that resist Dragon are hit SE by its STAB EQ, other than Bronzong and Skarmory. Skarmory is 2HKOed by Fire Blast, Bronzong is 3HKOed and has trouble doing anything back. Of course, if we did allow Kyogre, the Rain would finally put a check on Garchomp, as it would allow Steel and Grass types to take on Garchomp a bit better. This means less of your team is devoted to countering threats like that, so you have more room to take on Kyogre-like threats. Fortunately for you, most of the Pokemon boosted by Kyogre have offense identical to or worse than Kyogre's, so countering it and its allies is a fairly redundant method.
I firmly believe that if Garchomp could only be caught once, it would be seen as uber. "What!? STAB on a 100 power move and a 120 power move, and there are only two Pokemon that resist the 120 power move that aren't weak to the 100 power move? Over 100 base Speed? Swords Dance? It learns a 120 power move to hit those 2 resisting Pokemon SE!? High stats all around? Of course it's uber!"
Try judging all the Pokemon by the same standards.
As to whoever said this is a joke, no, it isn't. I've been advocating this since before DP was released. Instead, people foolishly created tier lists for the Pokemon before several of us (and them) had even played (this was before English DP was released) based on their perception of how things ought to be based on how ADV was. I said back then that what will end up happening is that people will resist change and be too locked in their ways of what is and isn't uber to consider that maybe some of their old perceptions are wrong, but I was ignored. People then said "First you wait until the metagame settles, then you work on adding new Pokemon!". I explained then in the same ways that I explained now why that is a nonsensical approach, but the tier lists went through anyway. Now some of those same people are saying "No, if you want to make changes like that, you should have done it earlier. Now the metagame has settled, so there is no point in trying to mix things up!".
As to the complaints that doing this would remove OU as it is now, well, yes, that's possible (in fact, nearly certain). How I see it actually panning out is that OU shifts to include more possible Pokemon. Some of the lower OUs now get bumped down to UU. UU then includes more Pokemon. Then, when people start playing UU, we find the discrepancies among UU teams in terms of usage, and we bump some of the Pokemon down to NU. This means that, instead of NU being the garbage heap of Luvdisc, Whiscash, Wailord, and other uninspiring Pokemon, we might actually have some interesting Pokemon there so NU is actually worth playing (I played it in ADV, and it was pretty dumb, because most of the Pokemon there were just knock offs of higher tiered Pokemon, because all the Pokemon with anything good to do were at least UU).
I feel the need to specifically mention the Darkrai arguments, too. You don't need two counters to it any more than you need two counters to Crobat or Breloom or Gengar. Having a Pokemon to absorb sleep is already a good thing, and adding another Pokemon that can use a sleep move isn't going to change this one bit. Almost every game I've fought the past couple of days has begun with them using Sleep Powder or Hypnosis as I switch to one of my two main sleep absorbers, depending on who I feel will be less useful with that particular Pokemon out (or I just leave out my Jirachi, because you only get 1-4 "fast asleep" messages, anyway, so I have the potential to wake up as they switch to whatever). You let one Pokemon take the sleep, then you go to whatever you have to stop Darkrai. It is bulkier than Gengar in terms of stats, but I think Gengar more than makes up for this in terms of resistances and immunities. Darkrai gets Calm Mind to set it apart, but it's not like Darkrai is some obviously uber out of control beast and Gengar is tame.
I didn't mention Arceus for two reasons: 1) It's an illegal Pokemon (duh), and 2) Because of 1, I have no experience fighting it, so I'm not going to comment on it.
If you think the Pokemon I suggested adding are too offensive, then perhaps Giratina should be allowed. If we let in Latias and / or Latios without Soul Dew (I actually find Latias to be better than Latios, but whatever), then I'd definitely move Giratina to the "test this one too" list.
Whoever said Wobbuffet is seen as cheap / overpowered / immoral / whatever even in ubers, you are dead wrong. Wobbuffet is incredibly weak in ubers because it can't switch in on any real attacker. The "it has no counters" argument also applies to Dugtrio and Magnezone.
You don't just look at Kyogre and say "OK it can kill Blissey in 2 hits under the right conditions and weakens Fire moves" and then look at Ho-oh and say "Well, it has a powerful Fire move" and then look at all this new offense and complain about not having any walls, and in the same breath claim that Deoxys-D and Lugia wall too much stuff.
The point is yes, I had some reservations about Palkia and Kyogre. But they weren't certainties, and so I put them up for possible testing. Saying something ought to be tested is not the equivalent of saying it's not uber, but rather, that there's a chance it isn't.
To those of you who say "Kyogre is uber because you need a Water resist to take it on!", consider Garchomp. It's the second most used Pokemon in OU, and to take it on, you need a Ground AND a Dragon resist, and if it catches your Skarmory or Bronzong with a Fire move you could be in big trouble. I think having Lapras and Dugtrio for Kyogre isn't nearly as big of a deal as having Body Slam Jirachi, HP Ice Celebi, and Ice Fang Gyarados for Garchomp (and still getting screwed by a CH / Sand Veil miss).
I was originally in the camp that Deoxys-D is pretty solidly uber, but someone said something that realy made me think. Several of the Pokemon people use to take on Cresselia would still take on Deoxys-D. There would be fewer old OU Pokemon, but with all these new Pokemon, it isn't as good.
"Ho-oh is too good because of Sacred Fire!". Again, consider Garchomp. Sacred Fire has 8 PP, 95% accuracy, 100 power, and 50% burn. If Kyogre is allowed, this is suddenly the equivalent of 50 power. If we just remove Kyogre, there's still potentially Manaphy, Palkia, Lugia (4 PP Sacred Fire with Pressure? yes please), Milotic (who just LOVES that Burn), Heatran for Choice versions, and the ever present Stealth Rock dropping it down by 50% each turn. Garchomp's moves have high enough PP to mostly be irrelevant, double useful STAB, and the only Pokemon that resist Dragon are hit SE by its STAB EQ, other than Bronzong and Skarmory. Skarmory is 2HKOed by Fire Blast, Bronzong is 3HKOed and has trouble doing anything back. Of course, if we did allow Kyogre, the Rain would finally put a check on Garchomp, as it would allow Steel and Grass types to take on Garchomp a bit better. This means less of your team is devoted to countering threats like that, so you have more room to take on Kyogre-like threats. Fortunately for you, most of the Pokemon boosted by Kyogre have offense identical to or worse than Kyogre's, so countering it and its allies is a fairly redundant method.
I firmly believe that if Garchomp could only be caught once, it would be seen as uber. "What!? STAB on a 100 power move and a 120 power move, and there are only two Pokemon that resist the 120 power move that aren't weak to the 100 power move? Over 100 base Speed? Swords Dance? It learns a 120 power move to hit those 2 resisting Pokemon SE!? High stats all around? Of course it's uber!"
Try judging all the Pokemon by the same standards.
As to whoever said this is a joke, no, it isn't. I've been advocating this since before DP was released. Instead, people foolishly created tier lists for the Pokemon before several of us (and them) had even played (this was before English DP was released) based on their perception of how things ought to be based on how ADV was. I said back then that what will end up happening is that people will resist change and be too locked in their ways of what is and isn't uber to consider that maybe some of their old perceptions are wrong, but I was ignored. People then said "First you wait until the metagame settles, then you work on adding new Pokemon!". I explained then in the same ways that I explained now why that is a nonsensical approach, but the tier lists went through anyway. Now some of those same people are saying "No, if you want to make changes like that, you should have done it earlier. Now the metagame has settled, so there is no point in trying to mix things up!".
As to the complaints that doing this would remove OU as it is now, well, yes, that's possible (in fact, nearly certain). How I see it actually panning out is that OU shifts to include more possible Pokemon. Some of the lower OUs now get bumped down to UU. UU then includes more Pokemon. Then, when people start playing UU, we find the discrepancies among UU teams in terms of usage, and we bump some of the Pokemon down to NU. This means that, instead of NU being the garbage heap of Luvdisc, Whiscash, Wailord, and other uninspiring Pokemon, we might actually have some interesting Pokemon there so NU is actually worth playing (I played it in ADV, and it was pretty dumb, because most of the Pokemon there were just knock offs of higher tiered Pokemon, because all the Pokemon with anything good to do were at least UU).
I feel the need to specifically mention the Darkrai arguments, too. You don't need two counters to it any more than you need two counters to Crobat or Breloom or Gengar. Having a Pokemon to absorb sleep is already a good thing, and adding another Pokemon that can use a sleep move isn't going to change this one bit. Almost every game I've fought the past couple of days has begun with them using Sleep Powder or Hypnosis as I switch to one of my two main sleep absorbers, depending on who I feel will be less useful with that particular Pokemon out (or I just leave out my Jirachi, because you only get 1-4 "fast asleep" messages, anyway, so I have the potential to wake up as they switch to whatever). You let one Pokemon take the sleep, then you go to whatever you have to stop Darkrai. It is bulkier than Gengar in terms of stats, but I think Gengar more than makes up for this in terms of resistances and immunities. Darkrai gets Calm Mind to set it apart, but it's not like Darkrai is some obviously uber out of control beast and Gengar is tame.
I didn't mention Arceus for two reasons: 1) It's an illegal Pokemon (duh), and 2) Because of 1, I have no experience fighting it, so I'm not going to comment on it.
If you think the Pokemon I suggested adding are too offensive, then perhaps Giratina should be allowed. If we let in Latias and / or Latios without Soul Dew (I actually find Latias to be better than Latios, but whatever), then I'd definitely move Giratina to the "test this one too" list.
Whoever said Wobbuffet is seen as cheap / overpowered / immoral / whatever even in ubers, you are dead wrong. Wobbuffet is incredibly weak in ubers because it can't switch in on any real attacker. The "it has no counters" argument also applies to Dugtrio and Magnezone.
I'm aware better is subjective (<.< as a side note to your comment I find Ketchup and Teriaki sauce both to be disgusting). Like you said people lose track of what the main purpose of the game is: to have fun. Would getting rid of Tyranitar and the likes make the game more fun perhaps?
My main point is that, if a pokemon does not over centralize/break the OU meta why should it be banned to ubers? Why not get rid of all the theorycraft with a test so people will know once and for all.And perhaps if the metagame goes through an extreme change and a pokemon once considered uber isn't so uber anymore then another test could be in order.
K read the first 17 posts, skipped the rest, including all above this post.
Opinion:
Kyogre should be banned not only because ScarfKyogre seems to be 'too powerful' but the fact that it could also beat Blissey (SubCM or Roar or just outstall with Rest/Sleep Talk), but also sets the tone for a whole team of Swift Swimmers etc.
I feel like Ho-oh should be uber, but it seems quite easy to take out due to...Stealth Rock. But I'm not too sure if that's an actual argument to make.
Acrceus is a definite no-no. I mean wasn't the only way to stop the normal one in Ubers already is Giratina?
And if we allow all those other Ubers under consideration, we've effectively hit the metagame known as "GSC Ubers." Seriously, Lugia, Deoxys-L/D, Latias, and you have some hard ass stalling going on. Slap your support Dugtrio for the Tyranitars and Blissey for ghosts and yeah it's just a boring stallmate.
Opinion:
Kyogre should be banned not only because ScarfKyogre seems to be 'too powerful' but the fact that it could also beat Blissey (SubCM or Roar or just outstall with Rest/Sleep Talk), but also sets the tone for a whole team of Swift Swimmers etc.
I feel like Ho-oh should be uber, but it seems quite easy to take out due to...Stealth Rock. But I'm not too sure if that's an actual argument to make.
Acrceus is a definite no-no. I mean wasn't the only way to stop the normal one in Ubers already is Giratina?
And if we allow all those other Ubers under consideration, we've effectively hit the metagame known as "GSC Ubers." Seriously, Lugia, Deoxys-L/D, Latias, and you have some hard ass stalling going on. Slap your support Dugtrio for the Tyranitars and Blissey for ghosts and yeah it's just a boring stallmate.
Well neither of us are going to change our opinions, so I guess we'll leave it at a disagreement.
Just curious, why would you ban Ho-oh but not Lugia? I'm curious. xD
Since it seems we're trying to have all these Pokemon tested under "ideal conditions" (i.e. giving them the support they like, such as Manaphy getting Kyogre support), we need to have Groudon for testing to give Ho-oh the Sunny support he so loves. See how this could expand to the point where we just test every uber?
Of all of these, I'm having the most reservations concerning Palkia. It has an awesome typing (Dragon attacks are beyond predictable, they're blatantly obvious), unbelievable stats, and a good movepool to go with it. If it's determined that Kyogre should be unbanned (which I really really doubt), then Palkia's ban should absolutely be cemented, since it's basically Kyogre with more speed and attack and less defense.
Manaphy should be tested with and without Kyogre. I think if Kyogre remains banned (which, again, it likely will), Manaphy could possibly be just balanced enough to be OU, though it's obviously a very threatening little pixie (much more so than Celebi or Jirachi).
I think Mew's unpredictability is a bit over the top. In addition to the ability to be an awesome mixed sweeper or a single sweeper, options like Transform just make it ridiculous. It turns Mew into a counter for most things, since very few Pokemon do particularly well against themselves. I don't see how any other Pokemon that would be moved down from Ubers would "balance out" something like that.
Of all of these, I'm having the most reservations concerning Palkia. It has an awesome typing (Dragon attacks are beyond predictable, they're blatantly obvious), unbelievable stats, and a good movepool to go with it. If it's determined that Kyogre should be unbanned (which I really really doubt), then Palkia's ban should absolutely be cemented, since it's basically Kyogre with more speed and attack and less defense.
Manaphy should be tested with and without Kyogre. I think if Kyogre remains banned (which, again, it likely will), Manaphy could possibly be just balanced enough to be OU, though it's obviously a very threatening little pixie (much more so than Celebi or Jirachi).
I think Mew's unpredictability is a bit over the top. In addition to the ability to be an awesome mixed sweeper or a single sweeper, options like Transform just make it ridiculous. It turns Mew into a counter for most things, since very few Pokemon do particularly well against themselves. I don't see how any other Pokemon that would be moved down from Ubers would "balance out" something like that.
Because Ho-Oh takes 50% on a switch as opposed to Lugia's 25% with Stealth Rock, and anytime you die on 2 switch ins on probably the second most common attack in Pokemon (Stealth Rock), it's not too attractive.
Not to mention Lugia just tanks a shit load better and just keeps stalling and stalling and stalling. Can a CBTar even handle Lugia one on one considering Lugia could just Reflect+Roost/Recover Pressure stall it out of Crunch/Stone Edge? Actually, we're quite lucky Recovery moves are down to 16 PP as opposed to formerly 32...
Not to mention Lugia just tanks a shit load better and just keeps stalling and stalling and stalling. Can a CBTar even handle Lugia one on one considering Lugia could just Reflect+Roost/Recover Pressure stall it out of Crunch/Stone Edge? Actually, we're quite lucky Recovery moves are down to 16 PP as opposed to formerly 32...
Shaymin deserves OU at most, nothing more. It has decent stats, but a very bad movepool.
Onto the bolded part, do you even know what you just said? You're saying that anyone who is low on the pokedex is uber. I guess that makes Cresselia, Heatran, the Regis, Metagross, etc. uber.
What defines an uber is if it is too strong for OU. This is a point that many people (I myself have missed this a lot) usually don't realize. A pokemon that is too strong for OU usually has very high stats, a large movepool, and is very good to use.
Groudon is a very powerful physical sweeper with nice defense and HP to support it. Also, its ability stops water pokemon from OHKOing it. The only real counter to it is a physical wall Cressy.
As for Dialga, its typing is very nice because it only has two weaknesses, and it has extremely high special attack. Also, it can stall, sweep, or support with its huge movepool.
Oh jeez, I completely read that wrong. I thought you were saying Lugia was Non-Uber whilst Ho-oh was Uber... >.< My mistake.
Taken from smogon's strategy pokedex:
"Darkrai does not have a true counter, due to most counters' fear of Dark Void and the possibility of being Taunted, as well as the unpleasant Bad Dreams"
"Fighting or Bug Arceus is your closest thing to a "true counter". It shrugs off Darkrai's hits pretty well and OHKOs it with Judgment".
The problem with this, I think, is that you're not playing under OU. Once you add all these, it's not OU we're playing any more, and we can't see how they'd really adapt to the OU metagame. By gradually introducing new ubers to OU, it's easier to tell how they'd fare in OU.
Also Obi, what you described was an uber battle. Keeping everything in a single tier doesn't prove anything, as everything in the game has a counter. Arceus isn't uber because it is countered by Blissey/Giratina, Kyogre isn't uber because of Latias, Rayquaza isn't uber because Groudon, Groudon isn't uber because of Lugia, Palkia isn't uber because of Latias, Latias isn't uber Darkrai isn't uber because of Arceus, Deoxys-A isn't uber because of Arceus, etc.
By doing that, you are suggesting that uber is the default tier. Theorymon has to hold some weight in deciding which Pokemon is and isn't uber initially, before testing.
A minor correction: with odd HP, you die on three switch-ins, not two. (Assuming you aren't attacked and never get the chance to recover)
Also Obi, what you described was an uber battle. Keeping everything in a single tier doesn't prove anything, as everything in the game has a counter. Arceus isn't uber because it is countered by Blissey/Giratina, Kyogre isn't uber because of Latias, Rayquaza isn't uber because Groudon, Groudon isn't uber because of Lugia, Palkia isn't uber because of Latias, Latias isn't uber Darkrai isn't uber because of Arceus, Deoxys-A isn't uber because of Arceus, etc.
By doing that, you are suggesting that uber is the default tier. Theorymon has to hold some weight in deciding which Pokemon is and isn't uber initially, before testing.
A minor correction: with odd HP, you die on three switch-ins, not two. (Assuming you aren't attacked and never get the chance to recover)
First of all, its Grass Knot, not Grass Rope.
Secondly, and more importantly, Tentacruel can run Mirror Coat and it can never get OHKO'd by Manaphy. Mantine isn't "shit", but can also never get OHKO'd and laughs back with Mirror Coat for an OHKO of its own. Ludicolo with Energy Ball works perfectly fine.
Jibaku, why did you bring up CB Kyogre? The whole point is to beat up stuff that would normally counter it, not actually hurt stuff like a normal Choice Bander, because it's not like it isn't walled by Cresselia or other physical walls that aren't ground-types. Also, Milotic/Suicune/Vaporeon doesn't take all that much from Thunder, and Gyarados/Slowbro walls everything that isn't Thunder.
I'd say a Calm Minder would be more dangerous.
I'd say a Calm Minder would be more dangerous.
Because CBOgre is ridiculously powerful (okay CB Waterfall is almost as powerful as Hera's CB Close Combat). Cresselia can't do anything to CBOgre (it gets 3HKOed by Waterfall, doesn't have the Moonlight recovery thanks to the rain) and Kyogre's 336 SAtk will seriously hurt these waters with Thunder as it's only about 1.12x less powerful than a Zapdos' Thunderbolt or something
Quoted for truth.
At Jibaku, I love your Palkia moveset. Surf, spacial rend, substitute, and spatial rend sure does work doesn't it?