I consider the goal of the team first. Most of the time this means finding 1-2 bulky sweepers, and then finding sweepers with large movepools to see if an odd choice for a move slot would cover any threats to the team. ... and most of that time I come up empty and end up with a conventional moveset. I also make sure to consider defensive typing to reduce the amount of opposing sweepers that pose a threat.
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When team building for standard 5th gen OU, what do you personally take into account?
- Thread starter Master Morty
- Start date
I tend to play with more offensively inclined teams, so I generally like to base my team around one poke's sweep. The team should be flexible, and able to support that core Pokemon well. However I always try to include a back up plan, incase I play stupidly and my core sweeper dies. Often in my teams, I consider hazards(both setting/handling switching into them) and weathers. In such a weather dominated metagame, you need to have plans and/or strategies for facing opposing weathers and their numerous threats.
WHen building a team I just pick as base pokemon and build around it with support and offensive teammates. Another thing I look into, while it may seem silly is how I deal with Terrakion. Terrakion is simply the biggest threat in the Meta and I always like to make sure I have something to take its hits as well as revenge it. Its kind of sad actually as I usually run either Scizor, Gliscor, or Slowbro on my team just for that beast.
I just wanted to let you guys know the metagame is weak to choice scarf again. I currently have 3 choice scarfers on my team that peaked at 150 rank. If enough people find out about this we will have another one of those choice item fads that we had a few months ago (does anyone besides me remember it?). I was debating not telling you guys this but I was getting tired of winning all the time without having to change my team much.
I strongly dislike the whole team building thoughts and strategies due to the fact that not one team is strong. There are different variations of teams that cater to a specific style if which the user would want to "effectively use them."
Let's take standard sand, TTAR, Scizor, rotom-w and (pick 3). The fact is the game is now more about "forcing your opponents hand."
How I build my teams:
1. Look at the top usage pokes and what sets are commonly being used.
2. Find out what style do I want this team to be. (i.e. Stall, H/O, semi-stall)
3. Find a base poke, and counter the counter with offensive synergy in mind.
Hope you enjoyed my reply.
Let's take standard sand, TTAR, Scizor, rotom-w and (pick 3). The fact is the game is now more about "forcing your opponents hand."
How I build my teams:
1. Look at the top usage pokes and what sets are commonly being used.
2. Find out what style do I want this team to be. (i.e. Stall, H/O, semi-stall)
3. Find a base poke, and counter the counter with offensive synergy in mind.
Hope you enjoyed my reply.
When I make a team, generally I would have a Pokemon that I want to build the team around, and then add team members that provide support for said team member. Recently I made a team around Kingdra, what are Kingdra's main weaknesses? In an OU environment, it's relatively slow in comparison with other Dragons, so I added Amoonguss for status support, allowing Kingdra to set up easier. Another thing I found with Kingdra after testing is that it does not have the immediate power of other Dragons. To help with this, I added Heatran to the team who provides Stealth Rock and a check to faster dragons such as Latias and Latios. Whenever you make a team, you should always have a certain idea of what the team is trying to achieve, and then base your team around that. If your team is based around the sweep of one Pokemon, then things such as status, hazards, wish, cleric or even rapid spin support are all helpful. That's not to say that when making a team, your team should only ever be based around the sweeping of one Pokemon, which is why offensive partners are very helpful. For example, the main switch in to Kingdra is Ferrothorn, so it would be wise to include Magnezone as a partner.
For more defensively inclined teams, I find that choosing a certain defensive core is the first step. Something such as a stall team is not aiming to pull off a sweep, so there is no need to support one Pokemon. On more defensive teams, I find that the point of the team is to wall as much of the metagame as possible, so each team member is just as important as eachother. As a result, I like to make sure that the stall team is as solid as possible, that offensive threats will have a lot of trouble powering through the defensive core I've made. When part of your core is down, you will be exposed to something different that maybe a threat. This is why stall teams have to be so solid, every moveslot of every Pokemon is important.
For more defensively inclined teams, I find that choosing a certain defensive core is the first step. Something such as a stall team is not aiming to pull off a sweep, so there is no need to support one Pokemon. On more defensive teams, I find that the point of the team is to wall as much of the metagame as possible, so each team member is just as important as eachother. As a result, I like to make sure that the stall team is as solid as possible, that offensive threats will have a lot of trouble powering through the defensive core I've made. When part of your core is down, you will be exposed to something different that maybe a threat. This is why stall teams have to be so solid, every moveslot of every Pokemon is important.
Team building has gotten much more difficult now that so many pokemon are available for play, and extremely powerful ones at that. It's basically about which person can create a team capable of dealing with the top cores and team strategies. Of course every team will have trouble with a few pokemon just because of the sheer number of them, but making sure that your team isn't weak to something as common as powerful water attacks since rain is all over the place, or a common pokemon like Scizor is a vital part of team building. Teams need to be able to handle the top threats, but they do not need to counter them. Like on HO teams, you do not need a pokemon to be able to stop a powerful dragon attack like was said earlier on this thread, but you need to make sure that if you sack a pokemon then you are able to make up for it with a new set-up sweeper.
It's all about your team goal. That has to be at the forefront of your brain during team building. Pick an IDEA to base the team around, and go from there. In gen 4 it was easy to pick one pokemon and base the team around it, but now it's not that easy. Sweeps just don't happen nearly as often, so many pokemon are needed to stop all of the counters. Nowadays, I tend to pick an overarching strategy for my teams, and just go from there. I tend to like sandstorm teams, so I know right away Tyranitar or Hippowdon must be on my team (almost always Tyranitar), and I add a water and a grass type to the team right away to make sure I can handle the powerful water attacks from rain teams that will be a challenge as it is a big deal to win the weather war. I make sure I have something that can set up stealth rock, and I choose a revenge killer, typically scarfed Landorus since he does so well in sand. My main core is then complete, and the other two spots would be fillers that allow me to fill roles that I deem necessary: these are often rapid spinners or a designated counter to a specific weakness that I may have such as a priority user to stop set-up sweepers, or something that can make sure rocks stay on the field (I typically use gengar for that).
In my opinion, there needs to be a core of probably 3 pokemon on the team that is able to accomplish the goal you are looking for, and then the others help these pokemon achieve the goal in some way and deal with their potential counters.
It's all about your team goal. That has to be at the forefront of your brain during team building. Pick an IDEA to base the team around, and go from there. In gen 4 it was easy to pick one pokemon and base the team around it, but now it's not that easy. Sweeps just don't happen nearly as often, so many pokemon are needed to stop all of the counters. Nowadays, I tend to pick an overarching strategy for my teams, and just go from there. I tend to like sandstorm teams, so I know right away Tyranitar or Hippowdon must be on my team (almost always Tyranitar), and I add a water and a grass type to the team right away to make sure I can handle the powerful water attacks from rain teams that will be a challenge as it is a big deal to win the weather war. I make sure I have something that can set up stealth rock, and I choose a revenge killer, typically scarfed Landorus since he does so well in sand. My main core is then complete, and the other two spots would be fillers that allow me to fill roles that I deem necessary: these are often rapid spinners or a designated counter to a specific weakness that I may have such as a priority user to stop set-up sweepers, or something that can make sure rocks stay on the field (I typically use gengar for that).
In my opinion, there needs to be a core of probably 3 pokemon on the team that is able to accomplish the goal you are looking for, and then the others help these pokemon achieve the goal in some way and deal with their potential counters.
My thought process is usually the same for Gen 3-5 team building. (gen 1 and 2 are a bit different)
1) Pick a win condition (stall or a certain pokemon I want to sweep with)
2) Add pokemon that support that win condition
3) If multiple pokemon can perform the same role, go with the one with the better overall team synergy
4) Test the team
5) See if any particular pokemon or strategy causes me problems
6) Patch up the weaknesses as best as I can
repeat 4-6 forever until I think my team is good enough (or until I get frustrated and scap the entire thing)
1) Pick a win condition (stall or a certain pokemon I want to sweep with)
2) Add pokemon that support that win condition
3) If multiple pokemon can perform the same role, go with the one with the better overall team synergy
4) Test the team
5) See if any particular pokemon or strategy causes me problems
6) Patch up the weaknesses as best as I can
repeat 4-6 forever until I think my team is good enough (or until I get frustrated and scap the entire thing)
well it's been a while since i posted on smogon. idk how to start but hey let's just get along shall we?
first off, i answer this question: should i make a team around a certain pokemon or should i focus on one goal(e.g. stall, HO, balanced, etc)?
ok so i have two different situations here. let's start on situation 1: building a team around a certain pokemon.
step 1: find all of its checks and counters then find the best offensive and defensive partner to take out/on the check or counter that comes out.
step 2: build a core that will support your chosen pokemon. pro tip: it is best to make a core including either the offensive partner or the defensive partner.
step 3: get a decent lead that works for your team. if your chosen pokemon is weak to stealth rock, then i prefer a lead that can spin. if not, then choose a lead like landorus-t.
step 4: check the synergy of your team. if the whole team is weak to a certain type, replace one of the core members with a different pokemon that can perform the same job, although the replacement could be weaker/outclassed. i prefer having a maximum of 2 pokemon sharing the same weakness.
step 5: go ahead and test the team. there's no better way of finding a teams weakness other than testing it in an actual battle. go for 5 matches or more and observe closely. testing is probably the most important part of team building.
ok now for situation 2: focus on a certain goal
step 1: go for a goal. (duh) anyway, this is the easiest part so we can just leave it now.
step 2: make a core for your goal. things like fire-grass-water etc etc. the thing to remember is that your core is best if they have a good type synergy. if not, you'll have a hard time to switch them in.
step 3: choose a spinner. first of all, your core would be switching in and out A LOT so you need to keep entry hazards away so the core doesn't break. the thing with choosing a spinner is that it is bloody hard that you'll have to depend on testing to find the best for your team.
step 4: the glue. this is your team's bread and butter. without this poke, the core is pretty much gone. for sweeping teams, i recommend a wish passer since life orb recoil will take your pokes out easily. for stall teams, the best glue is obviously a stall breaker. if you don't want one, then the next best option is go for a powerful mixed attacker/wall breaker so that opposing stall teams will crumble before you.
step 5: obviously, a lead. if you are weather dependent, then your lead could be your weather starter. if not, then a stealth rock user would be good so that your pokes could get an advantage in taking out things.
step 6: well here it is, testing. i explained what testing does in the previous situation so just refer there.
well i hope this one helps you guys. i'm not much of a good ladder guy but hey, my teams are at least successful. my best team so far is the one on my signature (Anti-Rain OU). gluck to you all.
first off, i answer this question: should i make a team around a certain pokemon or should i focus on one goal(e.g. stall, HO, balanced, etc)?
ok so i have two different situations here. let's start on situation 1: building a team around a certain pokemon.
step 1: find all of its checks and counters then find the best offensive and defensive partner to take out/on the check or counter that comes out.
step 2: build a core that will support your chosen pokemon. pro tip: it is best to make a core including either the offensive partner or the defensive partner.
step 3: get a decent lead that works for your team. if your chosen pokemon is weak to stealth rock, then i prefer a lead that can spin. if not, then choose a lead like landorus-t.
step 4: check the synergy of your team. if the whole team is weak to a certain type, replace one of the core members with a different pokemon that can perform the same job, although the replacement could be weaker/outclassed. i prefer having a maximum of 2 pokemon sharing the same weakness.
step 5: go ahead and test the team. there's no better way of finding a teams weakness other than testing it in an actual battle. go for 5 matches or more and observe closely. testing is probably the most important part of team building.
ok now for situation 2: focus on a certain goal
step 1: go for a goal. (duh) anyway, this is the easiest part so we can just leave it now.
step 2: make a core for your goal. things like fire-grass-water etc etc. the thing to remember is that your core is best if they have a good type synergy. if not, you'll have a hard time to switch them in.
step 3: choose a spinner. first of all, your core would be switching in and out A LOT so you need to keep entry hazards away so the core doesn't break. the thing with choosing a spinner is that it is bloody hard that you'll have to depend on testing to find the best for your team.
step 4: the glue. this is your team's bread and butter. without this poke, the core is pretty much gone. for sweeping teams, i recommend a wish passer since life orb recoil will take your pokes out easily. for stall teams, the best glue is obviously a stall breaker. if you don't want one, then the next best option is go for a powerful mixed attacker/wall breaker so that opposing stall teams will crumble before you.
step 5: obviously, a lead. if you are weather dependent, then your lead could be your weather starter. if not, then a stealth rock user would be good so that your pokes could get an advantage in taking out things.
step 6: well here it is, testing. i explained what testing does in the previous situation so just refer there.
well i hope this one helps you guys. i'm not much of a good ladder guy but hey, my teams are at least successful. my best team so far is the one on my signature (Anti-Rain OU). gluck to you all.
I usually choose an offensive move- such as Quicer Dance or Waterfall- find a pokemon to abuse that move, and then support that pokemon. Then I test out the team, see what works and doesn't. Then I scrap as many pokemon I can, bar the original and pokemon that work really well with it- a total of usually three pokemon- and then replace them again. I keep testing and sacking until I get a full team of six that have amazing synergy.
I have also recently tried something that is somewhat more of a fun approach. Some people give me challenges, such as "no pokemon with base speed faster than 100" or "make a team full of choiced pokemon." Of course these challenges are sometimes very hard to master but it certainly opens up new possibilities and sets on pokemon that are not very common yet still effective.
I have also recently tried something that is somewhat more of a fun approach. Some people give me challenges, such as "no pokemon with base speed faster than 100" or "make a team full of choiced pokemon." Of course these challenges are sometimes very hard to master but it certainly opens up new possibilities and sets on pokemon that are not very common yet still effective.
I start with one pokemon (it can be a wall or a sweeper it depends on what u want) that you personally enjoy using. I then ask my self what pokemon can stop it and then i put 2 pokemon that counter it. I then cover up my weaknesses and add either another sweeper or a wall. Then i choose each pokemon's set. Which depends on what the pokemon will try to achieve. Lastly i check everything that i may have missed. (make sure u have entry hazards).
Remember you can always go back and revise your team if it doesnt work out for u. Sometimes trial and error is the best way to go.
Remember you can always go back and revise your team if it doesnt work out for u. Sometimes trial and error is the best way to go.
Typically, I'll start with a Pokemon that I want to use and (possibly) sweep with at the end of games. From there, I try to build a defensive core (usually of 2-3 Pokemon) that can cover the majority of things that check/counter the Pokemon. If possible, at least one part of the defensive core will be able to draw out attacks that the star Pokemon can come in on with ease. After the defensive core is finished, I typically just fill in holes. Usually a secondary sweeper, revenge killer (if necessary) and a wallbreaker (if necessary) The needs of a spinner, weather starter, and/or hazard setter are also taken into consideration should I find that I'm needing one or more of those things.
For my current Rain team, I chose a sweeper (CB Azurmarill) and built from there. Generally for rain sides I prepare some ways to counter Ferrathorn, as it;s a real bitch to handle when Fire is nerf'd to x2.
I build a solid team to put dents in an opponents team to allow my late-game sweeper to come and clean house.
My current late game sweeper of choice is DD-MoxieMence which I run on a Sun Team.
On this team I also wanted to explore Magic Bounce Espeon and try and use her to the fullest, foregoing a spinner.
My current late game sweeper of choice is DD-MoxieMence which I run on a Sun Team.
On this team I also wanted to explore Magic Bounce Espeon and try and use her to the fullest, foregoing a spinner.
Usually I pick a Pokemon I like on a whim, regardless of the tier it's actually in (unless it's an Uber). I then go to OU and pick partners that help said Pokemon astonishingly well (e.g. if I'm using Shedinja, I pick a Rapid Spinner and then other Pokes who synergize with Shedinja really well, such as Heatran). I test the team out, then continue teambuilding from my results. Sometimes Pokes get replaced with other Pokes, sometimes the team just does really well and then runs into one roadblock that I fix the Pokes' movepools to prepare better for. I don't care about weather unless the Poke I like relies on a weather ability to function (Leavanny, for instance, requires I use Ninetales for Drought, and other Pokes that handle opposing weathers well). If it's a BL Pokemon that I like, then I am obligated to prepare for the OU metagame anyway (mostly Kyurem at this point).
In general I treat OU as an average tier to prepare for whenever I use Pokes that I like. I make sure other Pokes synergize well with the ones I like if I can't put together a team of 6 mons that are all ones I thoroughly enjoy using.
In general I treat OU as an average tier to prepare for whenever I use Pokes that I like. I make sure other Pokes synergize well with the ones I like if I can't put together a team of 6 mons that are all ones I thoroughly enjoy using.
I take into account what type of team I trying to make, whether it be offensive, defensive, rain, etc. Then what I usually do is take two Pokemon (usually one physical and one special) to build the team around. Then I take into account their strengths and weaknesses and add extra Pokemon for either support of coverage.
In very general terms, when I build offensive teams I tend to pick an offensive core of 2-4 Pokemon that work well together. They can usually weaken or eliminate each other's counters. The remaining slots usually go to Pokemon that can cover weaknesses and threats (but still fit with the team's synergy).
For example, my last team's offensive core was Mamoswine, Kingdra, Latios, and Magnezone. Magnezone works well with this core because they all like having Steel types eliminated. To cover the team's weaknesses, I added in Scizor and Scarf Landorus as revenge killers. Scizor and Landorus work well with the rest of the team because they fit the team's offensive pace and have good synergy with the offensive core.
For example, my last team's offensive core was Mamoswine, Kingdra, Latios, and Magnezone. Magnezone works well with this core because they all like having Steel types eliminated. To cover the team's weaknesses, I added in Scizor and Scarf Landorus as revenge killers. Scizor and Landorus work well with the rest of the team because they fit the team's offensive pace and have good synergy with the offensive core.
My teams all start off with a specific core I want to try and work around it.
Generally the first thing I keep in check is type synergy, and make sure I have something to switch into each type of attack, which leads to a majority of my teams being balanced/stall. If I can't account for a specific attack, a member gets switched. Some threats I'll account for specifically when I notice its ability to truck my team, whether just by looking or by battling (which to me is a huge factor in teambuilding and vice versa).
Generally the first thing I keep in check is type synergy, and make sure I have something to switch into each type of attack, which leads to a majority of my teams being balanced/stall. If I can't account for a specific attack, a member gets switched. Some threats I'll account for specifically when I notice its ability to truck my team, whether just by looking or by battling (which to me is a huge factor in teambuilding and vice versa).
I select a Pokemon that I want to use, then look at the support that would make that Pokemon do it's job much better. After adding various team members, I look at how it deals with the various style of teams it would commonly face, as well as any weaknesses that need patching up. Finally, I do some real testing using servers, fixing up any undiscovered weaknesses, then rinse and repeat the process until I'm satisfied.
Dr Ciel
Banned deucer.
When I'm building a team, I think to myself, "how does this team beat the top threats in the tier?" I then start to choose a Pokemon or 2 to counter these threats. If the Pokemon can't counter the threats effectively, I choose a couple more Pokes. I then playtest over and over until I can get a team that can effectively counter the top threats.
Magma
Guest
Nice thread. It's pretty cool seeing everyone's ideas on team building, here's my prespective:
I hate the simplicity of hyper offense teams (be the first to set up Rocks/Screens, then sweep before getting swept) so I usually stick to building semi-stall/balanced teams. Although semi-stall teams tend to be defensively oriented, ironically, the first thing I focus on is offense. Bubbly touched on the reasoning for this in an early post:
Mixed Salamence is a great example of a bulky wall-breaker because it puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams while also checking threats like Lucario, Gliscor, and Conkeldurr thanks to its movepool, speed, special attack, and Intimidate. On my sun team, for example, I paired Mixed Mence with another bulky wall-breaker in a Magma Storm + Taunt Heatran to tear down walls that give Salamence trouble such as Chansey, Jellicent, and Gastrodon (and as a bonus, the Salamence + Heatran combo synergizes pretty well defensively.)
Some other quick examples of bulky wall-breakers that I like to build a team around are Bulky Volcarona (counters Scizor, Lucario, and Toxicroak), Sub Jirachi (counters Special Dragons, Tyranitar, and even certain Rain teams), Taunt Gliscor (counters Breloom and Terrakion), Stall Breaker Mew (counters Reuniclus and Conkeldurr), and any Pokemon that learns Toxic Spikes. Once I decide on one of those, I try to find the things that wall it, then pair it with another bulky wall-breaker that can tear down those walls. Glass cannon, Life Orb sweepers such as Lucario, Infernape, and Latios rarely find a place on my teams (unless they are the team's revenge killer), because they usually get worn down by residual damage from LO, hazards, and/or weather before they flat out sweep opposing teams.
Once I have my two bulky offensive pokemon in place, I can start to focus on the defensive end. Any defensive core with Blissey/Chansey or a Steel+Water(+Grass/Dragon) combo (I wish people would stop calling this a FWG core because the Fire Pokemon is ALWAYS Heatran) usually holds up pretty well for me against common OU threats. The Pink Blob is self-explanatory and the Steel+Water combo is the core of many successful teams: Skarmory+Gastrodon (Tabloo), Scizor+Rotom (Volt-Turn), and Ferrothorn+Tentacruel (Rain Stall).
Lastly, when picking out the defensive core, I always make sure certain roles are filled (if they arent already filled by my wall breakers):
That's about it. Didn't mean to post a damn novel. Got a little carried away...
I hate the simplicity of hyper offense teams (be the first to set up Rocks/Screens, then sweep before getting swept) so I usually stick to building semi-stall/balanced teams. Although semi-stall teams tend to be defensively oriented, ironically, the first thing I focus on is offense. Bubbly touched on the reasoning for this in an early post:
To sum up that quote: It's kind of pointless to make a team that counters everything but has no goals of it's own and just runs around in circles until it's completely worn down. So with that in mind, my first order of business is always finding two BULKY wall-breakers that synergize almost perfectly OFFENSIVELY (by tearing down each other's walls) while also supporting the team defensively (by countering opposing threats.)bubbly said:
Mixed Salamence is a great example of a bulky wall-breaker because it puts a lot of pressure on opposing teams while also checking threats like Lucario, Gliscor, and Conkeldurr thanks to its movepool, speed, special attack, and Intimidate. On my sun team, for example, I paired Mixed Mence with another bulky wall-breaker in a Magma Storm + Taunt Heatran to tear down walls that give Salamence trouble such as Chansey, Jellicent, and Gastrodon (and as a bonus, the Salamence + Heatran combo synergizes pretty well defensively.)
Some other quick examples of bulky wall-breakers that I like to build a team around are Bulky Volcarona (counters Scizor, Lucario, and Toxicroak), Sub Jirachi (counters Special Dragons, Tyranitar, and even certain Rain teams), Taunt Gliscor (counters Breloom and Terrakion), Stall Breaker Mew (counters Reuniclus and Conkeldurr), and any Pokemon that learns Toxic Spikes. Once I decide on one of those, I try to find the things that wall it, then pair it with another bulky wall-breaker that can tear down those walls. Glass cannon, Life Orb sweepers such as Lucario, Infernape, and Latios rarely find a place on my teams (unless they are the team's revenge killer), because they usually get worn down by residual damage from LO, hazards, and/or weather before they flat out sweep opposing teams.
Once I have my two bulky offensive pokemon in place, I can start to focus on the defensive end. Any defensive core with Blissey/Chansey or a Steel+Water(+Grass/Dragon) combo (I wish people would stop calling this a FWG core because the Fire Pokemon is ALWAYS Heatran) usually holds up pretty well for me against common OU threats. The Pink Blob is self-explanatory and the Steel+Water combo is the core of many successful teams: Skarmory+Gastrodon (Tabloo), Scizor+Rotom (Volt-Turn), and Ferrothorn+Tentacruel (Rain Stall).
Lastly, when picking out the defensive core, I always make sure certain roles are filled (if they arent already filled by my wall breakers):
- Spinner (if I can't squeeze a spinner on the roster then I make my 2 bulky wall-breakers are immune to hazards. Tabloo is a good example of this since it relies on Reuniclus and Gengar+ToxicSpikes for wall breaking.)
- Speed/Scarf/Priority (very important, because it's impossible to hard counter every threat this generation, so sometimes I have to revenge kill a threat to keep it from sweeping my team.)
- Steel type (the stats and attacks of Dragons are just too powerful, so something has to tank hits from these overpowered threats.)
That's about it. Didn't mean to post a damn novel. Got a little carried away...
I try to focus on what I want to accomplish and then base a team around that. Then I look for weaknesses to make sure there is not 1 type that will sweep my entire team. After that, its just test test test