XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]

[Derpinator]

The only solution to this would be to simply extend the suspect test so it lasts a month and then analyze the usage stats. That would be quite interesting and end this part of the debate that's pure speculation. (I obviously disagree but to my point neither of us can win this part)

I never made that conclusion. And I've been watching the ladder as much as possible since day one. Taunt mega gyarados is a pretty amazing stall breaker and probably has a pretty cool role. Beating BP is of course another bonus. You cannot keep trying to slap down pokemon adding a move or altogether doing something different because "the current meta" the meta adapted to rain, HO, stall with different sets and different pokemon emerged to counter them. Running taunt on mega gyarados is totally not unviable and while not as powerful as dragon dance is far from a bad meta change.

I'll go edit my response I had wrote something but my computer is derping (pun non-intended) around. Also it was the pooj pokemon thread.

Thundurus 16% Pinsir 8% Landorus 7% Mawile 9% Erm uncommon how exactly? Heart Swap is lethal in the mirror which is pretty common on the suspect ladder... And yeah its fucking cool.

I honestly am having difficulty understanding how you repeatedly miss the point being made. Your suggestions for how to counter BP teams involve sacrificing many bonuses in general match-ups just to be able to deal with Baton Pass. Yes, Taunt Mega Gyarados is not totally unviable, but that doesn't mean people should be running it just to counter Baton Pass at the cost of using it efficiently in the majority of other situations. Yes, if the meta adapts and is swarming with Baton Pass teams, your suggestions are perfect. However, your adaptation scenario, as I said before, is quite blatantly unfavorable.

You have, once again, not actually refuted anything being said. Instead, you just presented a new, weaker point as to why one of the suggestions you made is not absolutely horrible while repeating how Heart Swap is good in match-ups on the Suspect Ladder.

Also really what is the point of the suspect, if it is inaccurate and people are going to ignore its results?

Honestly, have you not read anything past the fact that it is unrepresentative? You do not seem to understand what it is being said when people note that point and it has been elaborated on already. So this point is so entirely meaningless at the moment unless someone can counter the response which, as of now, has not been done.

 

[UltiMario]

I'll put my opinions out there now that I've made reqs.

I feel that Baton Pass is not a strategy that's broken, nor is it a strategy that is uncompetitive, nor is it something that detracts skill from the game. If you've been on the ladder, you'll find that Baton Pass teams have been completely irrelevant- few people actually have gotten to higher ratings playing Baton Pass, and out of those, and out of the general upper suspect ladder, the metagame is normal. There are certainly some better players that are using Baton Pass and still losing, so it's not a problem of better players being unwilling to use Baton Pass.

The thing about Baton Pass is that it's been relying on its bad rep as a way to win games. "We don't have to prepare for Baton Pass, it'll be nerfed or banned eventually so we don't have to worry about adapting to it." is a mentality that's probably plaguing the standard OU ladder and causing this mess to begin with. If you treat full Baton Pass chain teams like they were a normal team, and prepare for those threats accordingly, Baton Pass becomes competitively irrelevant. Sometimes you build those teams that struggle to kill Gastrodon without massive casualties, or you see Mega Absol in team preview and figure out that you really don't have the best answers to that, it happens, but otherwise those Pokemon simply aren't the best competitively despite their occasional ability to shred minimally prepared teams. Baton Pass is a lot like that- it's actually EXACTLY like that.

The reason why on the suspect ladder Baton Pass has been doing very poorly, and on the main ladder Denis stays at the top, is that on this ladder, people have been PREPARING for Baton Pass. They've been actually going out of their way to make sets that give BP issues, and basically 1 mon that really harasses BP is going to put enough pressure on the chain to make it crack, and win from that. Taunt has been a lot more common on this ladder among other things like M Garde (whos not so good) and M Zam (whos actually an incredible but massively underrated mega) as well as some other more niche stuff in order to stop Baton Pass from accomplishing anything vs them. I've even gone up against BP players multiple times with the same team and then still won despite them knowing all anti-BP stuff on my team because BP is really bad and can't compensate for its weaknesses.

BP has been more overhyped than BW1 Reuniclus. Baton Pass both as a move and as a whole is not broken in the slightest, and it just comes down to a change in teambuilding mentality that will remove Baton Pass and its relevancy. There is absolutely no valid criteria where Baton Pass should be altered from its current state IMO, it is not overpowered and it does not have a major negative impact on the game.

 

[Aquaslash]

The thing about Baton Pass is that it's been relying on its bad rep as a way to win games. "We don't have to prepare for Baton Pass, it'll be nerfed or banned eventually so we don't have to worry about adapting to it." is a mentality that's probably plaguing the standard OU ladder and causing this mess to begin with.

This here is the core problem with this entire situation. People are flat out refusing to accept BP as a valid and viable playstyle in the same vein as HO, Stall, and even weather builds, and want to be able to string together any random team and beat BP 100% of the time. I'm pretty sure there's a post that literally says this. In fact, here it is:

So, to sum up, by limiting the number of BP Pokemon, you have essentially made it possible for people to counter, with relative ease, the chain without consciously including specific counters in their team. Obviously, this is referring to people with average knowledge, prediction skills and teambuilding skills at the very least.

This is probably the strongest argument against option 2 that I've seen in this thread. You should not be able to mindlessly string a team together and be able to counter any playstyle. Not stall, not HO, not weather and not BP. If you build your team, you at least keep the different styles in mind, and if you find yourself weak to a particular one, then you accommodate for it.

 

[Derpinator]

This here is the core problem with this entire situation. People are flat out refusing to accept BP as a valid and viable playstyle in the same vein as HO, Stall, and even weather builds, and want to be able to string together any random team and beat BP 100% of the time. I'm pretty sure there's a post that literally says this. In fact, here it is:



This is probably the strongest argument against option 2 that I've seen in this thread. You should not be able to mindlessly string a team together and be able to counter any playstyle. Not stall, not HO, not weather and not BP. If you build your team, you at least keep the different styles in mind, and if you find yourself weak to a particular one, then you accommodate for it.

Sorry for the confusion, but mindless most certainly is not what I said. If you actually read what I said as a whole, it makes that clear. I said without consciously including counters for a three-Pokemon BP chain assuming the person has at least average skills as mentioned. So, by saying mindless, you are changing what I said entirely. How many people think about countering Skuntank, for example, when building a team? Very few if any. Does that mean they cannot counter it? I highly doubt it. People can have a check for each individual Pokemon on a standard BP team but they can still struggle because of the synergy and the ease with which momentum can be built up.

tl;dr That isn't what I said, reading it and noting the word choice makes that more than evident.

 

[Mikasa]

My problem with BP is that it makes the game more matchup reliant than it should be, basically some of the last posters said that if we prepare for BP it becomes competitively irrelevant but then I'll be weaker to teams who don't prepare against BP at all, because let's face it non-Taunt MegaDos and non-Taunt Thundurus are almost always the better sets for those mons so if I'm running Taunt on them I'm making myself weaker, it would not be a problem if BP was actually a normal playstyle who could adapt itself and stay relevant, but it is a problem because as more people run BP counters less relevant and less used BP becomes so less people start ruining it's counters and the people who do run start to lose more games because they are ruining subpar sets, so it gets to a point where almost no one prepares to BP and it gets relevant again, repeating the process over and over.

This problem happens because BP is almost an auto-win against teams who don't put counters to it and loses to anyone who does run counters and because of the nature of the counters who are either good mons not using their best set against other playstyles or are overall awful pokémons (for example Haze Murkrow is probably the best BP counter ever but I don't have to explain how bad this thing is against everything else) so the matchup becomes basically a rock-paper-scissor where BP> unprepared team > team prepared against BP > BP and differently from for example Stall where some good anti-stall mons will make you weaker against offense, BP has almost no way to adapt to its counters and if you don't have an anti-BP mon you will basically only win with a lucky crit, while you can still beat Stall even without a dedicated Stall breaker and Stall has room to evolve and not lose to the same stallbreaker over and over by making some changes in the teambuild while still being a Stall team.

With all that said I think option 2 is the best because it doesn't mess with the viability of any Mon (specially Scolipede who is a fair, good and balanced QuickPass mon) and let's face it both options will make Full BP unusable the only difference being that option 2 literally makes it impossible to make a Full BP team while option 3 makes it almost impossible to win with Full BP.

 

[MajesticM]

This is my first post ever. Haha.
There's no need to attack my newness or ladder rank or whatever, I'm not claiming to be some competent OU player or anything.
In fact, my post will not apply to only Pokemon.

Anyway, in my opinion, the thing that makes competitive Pokemon, or competitive anything that requires strategy, fun is that one could use many different strategies and be able to succeed. All strategies have their pros and cons, and strengths and weaknesses, and all them have a chance to succeed.

If one strategy becomes so powerful that it cannot be beaten without severely limiting the amount of strategies and potential team builds in the OU metagame, then it should not be in the metagame. All other strategies can be broken or countered in ways. Stall can be broken, potentially, by Stallbreakers. In response, Stall teams include a counter to notable stallbreakers like KyuB or (Mega) Garchomp. HO teams can be beaten, often by stall. Balance can be beaten by other balanced teams. (I may have said some things that are wrong, but as I said, I'm not a veteran). The point is that, all of these strategies can compete in the meta, and can counter weaknesses by savvy play or even hard counters, without sacrificing its competitive viability vs other teams. One can effectively make any team they want (within reason) and succeed.

Of course, there will be Pokemon that your team match poorly with (My team, for example, struggles with Greninja if my walls are broken). No team is entirely unbeatable, even BP. However, any competitive minded player can simply include a counter or two for their weaknesses, and although they might be disadvantaged, can hope to counter those weaknesses without having to change strategies or include pokemon with less viable sets outside of that team.

With BP, it can (in the hands of a competent player vs other competent players) effectively counter all of those strats listed above. Yes, it has pokemon that can counter it or hope to defeat it (I hear Yanmega, for example). However, one cannot simply throw on an Unaware Quag or Clef and hope to counter. Often, people have to build entire teams around the concept of defeating BP. That would mean that one has to sacrifice viability in most other situations. It is akin to only having winter clothes in an area with 4 seasons. If one strategy is so effective that it alters the metagame into making teams to counter it, that means that the only counter will be unusable in other situations. If the meta does not alter so heavily, it will be completely at the mercy of that strategy, without feasible hope in the long run.

In theory, if BP were to remain allowed, it would have to be dealt with on the higher ladder. As such, the entire upper ladder would be made of either BP teams or anti-BP teams, which severely limits teambuilding potential.

Of course, I know that BP isn't that popular, and pretty much sucks in the hands of incompetent players (I, at a lowly 1350 ish rating, have beaten my fair share). However, allowing it and simply hoping it doesnt catch on isnt an effective defense mechanism.

I'm sure I will be contested but meh.

 

[Ajwf]

This is probably the strongest argument against option 2 that I've seen in this thread. You should not be able to mindlessly string a team together and be able to counter any playstyle. Not stall, not HO, not weather and not BP. If you build your team, you at least keep the different styles in mind, and if you find yourself weak to a particular one, then you accommodate for it.

Whether or not you believe that's how it morally SHOULD be, the reality of it is far different. In the OU room we discuss stall as an entity of five (although now people do occasionally mention some other teams). String together this group of mons, someone else already found the groundwork to it. Hell, I bet you could name the five without me having to mention one of them. DeoSharp, the sand rush exca teams, bird spam HO... all of these cores are basically "place on team, add more components". They have hundreds of different teams with them, but the basic nature is such that you pick that starter core and continue on. Once the basic cores are found, proven and popularized, the teams are put together with ridiculous sameness. And they're successful.

On a different note, as a stall player I could counter baton pass if I didn't have to deal with Espeon. Ofc I don't run much stall during suspect tests (I don't give away points on purpose) but I come across it enough. We do have some counters as is, if we wanted to go so far as Mega Gyara's Mold Breaker taunt/roar. Outside of that, nothing doing. We rely on the opponent to be stupid if we stick around to play. I'm of the opinion that stall doesn't have the variety of options HO does to beat BP and can't be asked to utilize those options (mega slot or haze quagsire? And haze quag doesn't always work) on every team. I'll probably look for 3 simply because of Espeon/Scol being the most issue-ridden. I have beaten BP with stall when they lead with pokes outside of standard Scol and it's because the boost level is very manageable. I can force them to averaging a +1 every turn. And being able to use taunt/roar would be an absolute godsend.

 

[Albacore]

I feel that Baton Pass is not a strategy that's broken, nor is it a strategy that is uncompetitive, nor is it something that detracts skill from the game. If you've been on the ladder, you'll find that Baton Pass teams have been completely irrelevant- few people actually have gotten to higher ratings playing Baton Pass, and out of those, and out of the general upper suspect ladder, the metagame is normal. There are certainly some better players that are using Baton Pass and still losing, so it's not a problem of better players being unwilling to use Baton Pass.

In what way is a metagame where people over-prepare for Baton Pass "normal"? The fact that using BP was actually recommended in the suspect test pushed most people to run dedicated BP counters where there usually wouldn't. Of course BP teams are having a hard time. If you put a broken Pokemon in a metagame full of counters to said broken Pokemon, it's going to struggle, no matter how broken it is.

The thing about Baton Pass is that it's been relying on its bad rep as a way to win games. "We don't have to prepare for Baton Pass, it'll be nerfed or banned eventually so we don't have to worry about adapting to it." is a mentality that's probably plaguing the standard OU ladder and causing this mess to begin with. If you treat full Baton Pass chain teams like they were a normal team, and prepare for those threats accordingly, Baton Pass becomes competitively irrelevant. Sometimes you build those teams that struggle to kill Gastrodon without massive casualties, or you see Mega Absol in team preview and figure out that you really don't have the best answers to that, it happens, but otherwise those Pokemon simply aren't the best competitively despite their occasional ability to shred minimally prepared teams. Baton Pass is a lot like that- it's actually EXACTLY like that.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Gastrodon and BP teams are not, in fact, equivalent. Part of the reason BP is being suspected in the first place is that it's able to win solely on matchup. Some teams (aka, pretty much any team that doesn't run a dedicated BP check) just have absolutely no chance vs BP, no matter how much more skill they have compared to the BP user. An incompetent BP player can completely steamroll a good player with a BP-weak team. This isn't true of Gastrodon, who can easily be played around even without taking it in account during teambuilding (because why would you, I mean, it's Gastrodon). If you somehow manage to make a team weak to Gastrodon, you still have a chance to beat it. But for some teams, the optimal way to deal with BP is just forfeit turn 1, since you have no chance unless the opponent does something colossally stupid like hard-switch after accumulating many boosts (which I have seen a BP team do and still win).

The reason why on the suspect ladder Baton Pass has been doing very poorly, and on the main ladder Denis stays at the top, is that on this ladder, people have been PREPARING for Baton Pass. They've been actually going out of their way to make sets that give BP issues, and basically 1 mon that really harasses BP is going to put enough pressure on the chain to make it crack, and win from that. Taunt has been a lot more common on this ladder among other things like M Garde (whos not so good) and M Zam (whos actually an incredible but massively underrated mega) as well as some other more niche stuff in order to stop Baton Pass from accomplishing anything vs them. I've even gone up against BP players multiple times with the same team and then still won despite them knowing all anti-BP stuff on my team because BP is really bad and can't compensate for its weaknesses.

Erm, you do know that people prepare for BP on the main ladder, right? Haven't you seen how many anti-BP measures people have resorted to to stand a chance vs BP? The fact that Denissss managed to stay #1 shows how unbalanced BP is. While it is impossible for a lot of teams to beat BP, the reverse is't true : BP teams can beat their checks with a bit of skill. Just read Denissss's RMT, where he lists out how he deals with certain Pokemon that threaten his team. BP teams can definitely compensate for its weaknesses. And if you use only one Pokemon that can actually touch BP (which most teams on the suspect ladder do), just one mistake can make you lose momentum, and when you lose momentum against BP, you lose the match. Oh, and there's also the fact that BP has switch priority which makes prediction so much easier. BP teams can basically pass to anything that can take on what you decide to switch into. Good luck outplaying that.

Yes, people can and have prepared for Baton Pass. Just as people can prepare for Mega-Kangaskhan by running Gourgeist and Sableye on all their teams. And people can prepare for Mega-Gengar by running Shed Shell on everything. Just because something can be prepared for doesn't mean it's not broken.

 

[JFrost]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-125383225

Dude I mean, I'm a slightly above average user. The turns got into the 30's before the first pokemon was KO'd, and regardless of my efforts as you can see if you watch the entire match, there was nothing I can do.

The issue is, yes we can prepare for it, but unless you create a team dedicated to stopping Baton Pass, you have a slim chance of beating a good user. It's the reason the top Baton Passers have the best OU records to date. Dennis, Ranked #1 in OU as I type this, has a record of 1013 wins, 368 losses. That means even the best players on this server simply can't deal with baton pass.

We ban things when the common user is unable to deal with it, and is dominated it; and when the best among the server consider it a problem. We banned swagger. We banned Shadow Tag (Mega Gengar). We banned Speed Boost (Blaziken). All of which can be prepared for, might I add. Hell, they're only one pokemon; one move. We can ban Baton Pass as well.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

I commented on the toip rank, now the A rank.
Dragonite. A boosted Outrage destroy all the team except Sylveon, and because they are overly fast , Sylveon won't have a free turn. DD if you see Scolipede.

Ferrothorn: Espeon dopesn't like taking Gyro Ball, specially with boosted Speed. Vaporeon can be dealt with Powetr Whip although it feares Scald. Zapdos can counter it, even though it can usually don't do anything to it.

Gengar: If you have Substitute, Set up Substitute on turn 1. Then, use Shadow ball through the teams before they get many boosts. Gengar resists Hyper Voice.

Heatran: It can burn (and doesn0t mind Espeon too much), can spam Lava plume (which Espeon can avoid) and aren't resisted by anything), can Roar all the boosts with prediction and his typing makes it resisted Stored Power and Hyper Voice at once, doing ridiculous damage without many boosts.

Hippowdon: It has a problem with Espeon as sson as Scolipede gives defensive boost. However, BP hates Sandstorm and if they switch into Espeon on turn 1, they don't get any boost. But it's not a good pick.

Kyurem-B: His ability ignores Magic Bounce, which means an occasional Taunt will be affected. The main problem is Sylveon, which is not the main threat of those teams. Also, remember that any non-Fairy doesn't like ataking boosted CB Outrage.

Landorus-T: Even though it's not that common, I think Landorus-T learns Swords Dance, which can be used when Scolipede tries to Protect/Iron Defense. Espeon hates switching into it because his low defense. The only thing it can really stop Vaporeon before it gets a lot of boost is Vaporeon's Scald.

Latios: If BP teams are a problem, the first things to do is change Psyshock to Psychic to reliably KO Scolipede on turn 2. Vaporeon can be dealt with Thunderbolt, Smeargle with everything. Also, having Shadow Ball is recommend to defeat Espeon directly. And one more thing: Don't use Choice Items.

Terrakion: No mebers of an usual BP teams resist Stone Edge and many of them are actually weak to it. A Rock Polish version is actually great because it can actually outspeed Scolipede at +1. Espeon doesn't like to reflect SR from it because he hates Stone Edge and the rare X-Scissor.

Mega Venusaur: Wall Mvenusaur does terrible. Tank Venusaur is a bit better. It can 1) sleep one member of the chain and 2) Leech Seed one of the members which disrupt the chain. Moves that Venusaur is already inmune which means Espeon can't reliable reflect that. However, if you let Espeon getting 2 CM, bye Venusaur.

A- Rank:
Breloom: Technician Bullet Seed destroy any Substitute that they could set. Can Spore one of the members while not risking being sleep. However, is weak to the two most powerful moves of a BP team.

Chansey: A terrible option against Bp teams. Free set up bait.

Latias: Same with latios by Changing Psyshock to Psychic. Not that terrible, but Sylveon can set up on it which is never great.

Mamoswine: One of the poekmon that can SR against a Bp ont urn 1 becauseEspeon hates switching into it at +0. Icicle Spear is great taking those annoying Substitute. Ice Shard from him is a stong priority which none of the members resist. And to another, Earthquake is a STAB that only Zapdos can take it (who is weak to Ice and can do nothing in return).

Mandibuzz: A terrible choice against BP team because currently BP doesn'0t boost Attack (boosted Foul Play) and Taunt is hard stopped by Espeon (one of the pokes it should beat) and Sylveon and Zapdos destroy it with his STAB.

Manaphy: Tail Glow boost Special Attack by 3 levels boosting faster than Espeon can Calm Mind. Have fun getting +3 SpA while Scolipede Protects. After that, only Vaporeon can stop (by risk a boosted Energy Ball).

Rotom-W: Trick Rotom-W works wonders. Stop the chain very hard but making one pokemon unusable causing to switch out. The main con ius that you can't easily use Will-o-wisp with Espeon alive.

Skarmory: A bad option versus BP teams. Brave Bird is too weak to be a serious threat to Scoipede at +2 (much less the rest of the team except Smeargle). However, Whirlwind is a good way to force it out if they don't predict correctly.

==================================
I have been investigating how to take a team of BP and I think this can done realtively easy. If you want to defeat Bp teams.

Assume that the first pokemon is Scolipede (specially because it's the most threatening of the chain).

Pick a good choice against him (special Attackers are preferred because they aren't easy to set up boosts).
In the first turn, if you ahve a set up move, use it because it will likely Protect against you.
Then start attacking since turn 2.

If you decide to set up entry hazards, put the setter in the lead position. Also, the setter has to threathen Espeon and if you predict Espeon (like Tyranitar).

Don't use at all pokemon who are set up bait for BP teams, specially Deoxys-D. DeoxysD is an Espeon attracter like nobody.

Try to defeat Scolipede if you do, the chain is easy to break (you aren't guarantee to win, but this happens in almost every OU battle).

Status is great, but use it on pokemon who not fear the status thrown, like Fire types with Will-o.wisp or Poisons with Toxic.

Have an Steel member of your team with offensive presence to take Stored power and Hyper Voice.

Try to reserve pokemon that are heavily resisted by Scolipede + Espeon until those two are being defeated or seriouslyt damaged without boosts.

And most important, you are not guarantedd to win even if you applies those guidelines (and there are more): Hax exist, wrong prediction exists. Even top palyers can be defeated when Stone Edges missed against a Talonflame.

 

[jbtc10]

Chansey: A terrible option against Bp teams. Free set up bait.

Rotom-W: Trick Rotom-W works wonders. Stop the chain very hard but making one pokemon unusable causing to switch out. The main con ius that you can't easily use Will-o-wisp with Espeon alive.

Chansey isn't terrible, it has Seismic Toss to guarantee breaking every Sub except for Vaporeon's and does a consistent amount of damage to all of the members (most of which have a low HP stat too) irrespective of defense boosts. It's actually one of Stalls better tools against BP, especially if the team also has a Ditto. It's not spectacular, but it's far from terrible.

Trick Rotom is actually pretty useless most of the time, since Trick is blocked by Substitute and Scolipede only has to use Protect once, then it can get a free Sub up and start boosting. Usually 3-4 members on the team have Substitute, so you're going to be hard pressed to find a decent opportunity to Trick something for starters, and even then, most of the time they don't mind if something like Mr. Mime gets Tricked.

 

[Lil YoshiXD]

Thoughts on recent posts: If you think baton pass is as broken as MegaKang, MegaLucario, I have to believe you are quite mistaken. Those pokemon had maybe 5 counters if that. Baton Pass easily has 20+ counters, which have already been posted and are useful in a variety of situations, so I won't rehash.

I'm also of the mindset you don't need 6 pokemon to beat baton pass. 1 or 2 counters would suffice. In no way do I feel that is overpreparing. Most of the over-prepared teams are not at the top of the ladder.

I'd also like to add the "Common user" struggles with good stall, HO, teams also, but they are not being suspected.

As me and a few others have said, it just seems like the regular user on the OU ladder just doesn't want to prepare for it and imo that is their fault.

BTW anyone can use suspect ladder. On showdown just change tier to ou suspect. To be able to vote though, you need to play and win a lot of games.

 

[TheEnder]

Now that I've made it to reqs, I'll put my two cents on BP and the current situation :)

The most common argument you hear presented against Baton Pass is "BP needs to be banned or nerfed, since it auto-wins against *instert playstyle not named HO*". In my opinion, this is wrong. Baton Pass isn't necessarily an overpowered playstyle, nor does it auto-win against stall and balanced. As UltiMario said;

The reason why on the suspect ladder Baton Pass has been doing very poorly, and on the main ladder Denis stays at the top, is that on this ladder, people have been PREPARING for Baton Pass. They've been actually going out of their way to make sets that give BP issues, and basically 1 mon that really harasses BP is going to put enough pressure on the chain to make it crack, and win from that.

The issues BP gives to stall, can easily be worked around by adjusting movesets and cores. Pokes like Taunt Talonflame and Taunt Gengar has seen much more usage, especially on (semi)stall and balanced.

Every playstyle has a problem; they cannot cover all variations of all the playstyles. As you all know, HO oftens struggles to break stall teams, and therefore runs a dedicated stallbreaker (like Gengar and Gothitelle). Balanced needs to cover HO, as hazard pressure allows the opposing teams to break the defensive cores of the team. Because of this, pokes like Greninja and Dragonite are used much on blanced teams, becuase they do well against HO teams (speed and/or priority combined with power).

This can also be done for BP teams. Fit Taunt on your Thundurus or Gengar, pack a phazing move, mabye even use a poke designed specially to take down BP. The playstyle is not overpowered, nor uncompetitive, it's just a playstyle teams needs to adapt to. I would not mind a nerf to the playstyle, but I wouldn't be worried if nothing was done (for my sake, please don't vote for option three, please).

But anyways, these are just my thoughts, feel free comment what you think :)

 

[I AM THE JAMAICAN BOBSLED TEAM]

Now that I've made it to reqs, I'll put my two cents on BP and the current situation :)

The most common argument you hear presented against Baton Pass is "BP needs to be banned or nerfed, since it auto-wins against *instert playstyle not named HO*". In my opinion, this is wrong. Baton Pass isn't necessarily an overpowered playstyle, nor does it auto-win against stall and balanced. As UltiMario said;


The issues BP gives to stall, can easily be worked around by adjusting movesets and cores. Pokes like Taunt Talonflame and Taunt Gengar has seen much more usage, especially on (semi)stall and balanced.

Every playstyle has a problem; they cannot cover all variations of all the playstyles. As you all know, HO oftens struggles to break stall teams, and therefore runs a dedicated stallbreaker (like Gengar and Gothitelle). Balanced needs to cover HO, as hazard pressure allows the opposing teams to break the defensive cores of the team. Because of this, pokes like Greninja and Dragonite are used much on blanced teams, becuase they do well against HO teams (speed and/or priority combined with power).

This can also be done for BP teams. Fit Taunt on your Thundurus or Gengar, pack a phazing move, mabye even use a poke designed specially to take down BP. The playstyle is not overpowered, nor uncompetitive, it's just a playstyle teams needs to adapt to. I would not mind a nerf to the playstyle, but I wouldn't be worried if nothing was done (for my sake, please don't vote for option three, please).

But anyways, these are just my thoughts, feel free comment what you think :)

Baton Pass imo needs to be nerfed. Sure, it may be overhyped, but that doesn't mean its not nerfworthy. also, what makes it uncompetitive if that a player literally has nothing for it, they have to be a god not to lose. this is called autonomy, in which the games events are all in control of 1 player, the baton pass user. this happens almost always vs stall, because you can just stall out haze. it happens even to teams with mega pinsir and talonflame, because both of those threats are handled by a +2 vaporeon. any sort of autonomy that can happen in a game NEEDS to be rooted out, because that's just plain uncompetitive. im not bothering to get reqs, because I know its going to be nerfed in some way. but until then, I guess ill have to run taunt on my thundy ;.;

 

[Halcyon.]

I love when people say that setup sweepers like TG Manaphy and NP Thundurus beat Baton Pass, because it's like they've never heard of Encore in their lives. All it takes is one 50/50 with a setup sweeper between going for an attack and watching them setup in front of you or going for another boost and getting Encored the next turn. Then they get at least one free turn AND you have to switch your "counter" out. I've had this happen against me plenty of times.

Second, people always say this in suspect tests: "oh well why don't you just pack a counter to it? I do it and I never have trouble against it!" And I honestly couldn't hate anything more than that. Come the fuck on. Baton Pass is an outlier. It's not a part of the standard metagame. If it's not in 1/20 matches, then it's not considered "OU" and isn't something that should be prepared for. What's more is that it's not even a playstyle LOL it's one fucking team with MAYBE one mon difference. One single team absolutely DOES auto-win against teams without prankster Taunt (which can still be stopped with Mental Herb LOL). It's never seen in tour play (hilarious that people think the top of the ladder represents high-level play), and when it is, you're basically admitting to your opponent that you cannot beat them with a legit team, and must resort to a cheap matchup based team to even have a chance against them. So naturally no one uses it.

Laddering on the suspect ladder is cancer and there's no way I'm going to actually try to get reqs but if by some miracle I try, I'll vote option 2.

 

[Tyrant laharl]

Now that I finally hit reqs, I feel like my idea if BP changed personally. After forgoing twave for taunt on my thundy t i have to say i don't even think BP is as bad as i used to think. Sure it limits teambuilding a bit, but remember what happened early Gen 6 with talonflame? That thing swept entire conventional teams by itself until people realized an electric or rock type Is going to be required, or else you straight up can't counter it.
Most of the options presented to stop Bp aren't even that bad IMO. Taunt NP thundy can crush stall and set up on chansey while taunt megados easily sets up on skarmorys and mandibuzz's lacking foul play.
That being said, I'd have to vote option 2 out of the fact that baton pass is 100 percent based on team matchup, and not really skill based. I just had to say I didn't really think it was to bad to face, and some of its counters weren't as niche as everyones saying

 

[Of Moose & Men]

The issues BP gives to stall, can easily be worked around by adjusting movesets and cores. Pokes like Taunt Talonflame and Taunt Gengar has seen much more usage, especially on (semi)stall and balanced.

I'm just curious, what exactly does Stall have to work around BP?
Don't say Haze Quagsire since Espeon has a field day with him.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I love when people say that setup sweepers like TG Manaphy and NP Thundurus beat Baton Pass, because it's like they've never heard of Encore in their lives. All it takes is one 50/50 with a setup sweeper between going for an attack and watching them setup in front of you or going for another boost and getting Encored the next turn. Then they get at least one free turn AND you have to switch your "counter" out. I've had this happen against me plenty of times.

Second, people always say this in suspect tests: "oh well why don't you just pack a counter to it? I do it and I never have trouble against it!" And I honestly couldn't hate anything more than that. Come the fuck on. Baton Pass is an outlier. It's not a part of the standard metagame. If it's not in 1/20 matches, then it's not considered "OU" and isn't something that should be prepared for. What's more is that it's not even a playstyle LOL it's one fucking team with MAYBE one mon difference. One single team absolutely DOES auto-win against teams without prankster Taunt (which can still be stopped with Mental Herb LOL). It's never seen in tour play (hilarious that people think the top of the ladder represents high-level play), and when it is, you're basically admitting to your opponent that you cannot beat them with a legit team, and must resort to a cheap matchup based team to even have a chance against them. So naturally no one uses it.

Laddering on the suspect ladder is cancer and there's no way I'm going to actually try to get reqs but if by some miracle I try, I'll vote option 2.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the high OU ladder was filled with BP teams.

At least that's what people say when they are arguing for a BP ban.

Actually, Scolipede, Vaporeon and Smeargle did climb to OU in the April stats. If that's not an indication that Baton Pass is OU, I don't know what it is.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the high OU ladder was filled with BP teams.

At least that's what people say when they are arguing for a BP ban.

mLuke wasn't extremely common either. The commonality of it doesn't make it any less broken.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

mLuke wasn't extremely common either. The commonality of it doesn't make it any less broken.

You don't understand. Halycon is saying BP is not part of the metagame because it's not common. I'm saying it is.

 

[rachet67]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the high OU ladder was filled with BP teams.

At least that's what people say when they are arguing for a BP ban.

Besides, Scolipede, Vaporeon and Smeargle did climb to OU in the April stats. If that's not an indication that Baton Pass is OU< I don't know what it is.

It was never a common style on the upper ladder, it's just that it was relatively easy to get on the upper ladder using it, and there were a few notable players (Denisss) that managed to stay on the top of the ladder. Anyways, it's usage on the ladder is completely irrelevant to whether it gets banned or not.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

It was never a common style on the upper ladder, it's just that it was relatively easy to get on the upper ladder using it, and there were a few notable player (Denisss) that managed to stay on the top of the ladder. Anyways, it's usage on the ladder is completely irrelevant to whether it gets banned or not.

Of course the usage in the ladder is not relevant. I wasn't the one who brought this up.

I'm just curious, what exactly does Stall have to work around BP?
Don't say Haze Quagsire since Espeon has a field day with him.

Clear Smog Amooungus is a pain in the ass to face. It works against subs.

And yeah, Espeon beats it, but that's what teamates are for. Actually, the same thing goes for Quagsire. No one who uses Haze Quagsire tries to beat BP teams 6-0 using only it.

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Clear Smog inflicts damage and resets all stat levels of the target to 0; unlike Haze, this move only hits one target rather than afflicting every Pokémon on the field. This effect does not work if the foe is unaffected by the attack or if the foe is behind a Substitute. Clear Smog does not miss unless the target has just used Fly, Dig, Dive, Bounce, Phantom Force, or Shadow Force.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Of course the usage in the ladder is not relevant. I wasn't the one who brought this up.



Clear Smog Amooungus is a pain in the ass to face. It works against subs.

And yeah, Espeon beats it, but that's what teamates are for. Actually, the same thing goes for Quagsire. No one who uses Haze Quagsire tries to beat BP teams 6-0 using only it.

Agent Gibbs beat me to it.
You're right they don't go in planning on beating a BP chain 6-0, anyone that thinks that is absurd. Regardless that doesn't answer my question of, what does Stall have to "easily work around" BP chains?

 

[Anty]

I commented on the toip rank, now the A rank.
Dragonite. A boosted Outrage destroy all the team except Sylveon, and because they are overly fast , Sylveon won't have a free turn. DD if you see Scolipede.

Ferrothorn: Espeon dopesn't like taking Gyro Ball, specially with boosted Speed. Vaporeon can be dealt with Powetr Whip although it feares Scald. Zapdos can counter it, even though it can usually don't do anything to it.

Gengar: If you have Substitute, Set up Substitute on turn 1. Then, use Shadow ball through the teams before they get many boosts. Gengar resists Hyper Voice.

Heatran: It can burn (and doesn0t mind Espeon too much), can spam Lava plume (which Espeon can avoid) and aren't resisted by anything), can Roar all the boosts with prediction and his typing makes it resisted Stored Power and Hyper Voice at once, doing ridiculous damage without many boosts.

Hippowdon: It has a problem with Espeon as sson as Scolipede gives defensive boost. However, BP hates Sandstorm and if they switch into Espeon on turn 1, they don't get any boost. But it's not a good pick.

Kyurem-B: His ability ignores Magic Bounce, which means an occasional Taunt will be affected. The main problem is Sylveon, which is not the main threat of those teams. Also, remember that any non-Fairy doesn't like ataking boosted CB Outrage.

Landorus-T: Even though it's not that common, I think Landorus-T learns Swords Dance, which can be used when Scolipede tries to Protect/Iron Defense. Espeon hates switching into it because his low defense. The only thing it can really stop Vaporeon before it gets a lot of boost is Vaporeon's Scald.

Latios: If BP teams are a problem, the first things to do is change Psyshock to Psychic to reliably KO Scolipede on turn 2. Vaporeon can be dealt with Thunderbolt, Smeargle with everything. Also, having Shadow Ball is recommend to defeat Espeon directly. And one more thing: Don't use Choice Items.

Terrakion: No mebers of an usual BP teams resist Stone Edge and many of them are actually weak to it. A Rock Polish version is actually great because it can actually outspeed Scolipede at +1. Espeon doesn't like to reflect SR from it because he hates Stone Edge and the rare X-Scissor.

Mega Venusaur: Wall Mvenusaur does terrible. Tank Venusaur is a bit better. It can 1) sleep one member of the chain and 2) Leech Seed one of the members which disrupt the chain. Moves that Venusaur is already inmune which means Espeon can't reliable reflect that. However, if you let Espeon getting 2 CM, bye Venusaur.

A- Rank:
Breloom: Technician Bullet Seed destroy any Substitute that they could set. Can Spore one of the members while not risking being sleep. However, is weak to the two most powerful moves of a BP team.

Chansey: A terrible option against Bp teams. Free set up bait.

Latias: Same with latios by Changing Psyshock to Psychic. Not that terrible, but Sylveon can set up on it which is never great.

Mamoswine: One of the poekmon that can SR against a Bp ont urn 1 becauseEspeon hates switching into it at +0. Icicle Spear is great taking those annoying Substitute. Ice Shard from him is a stong priority which none of the members resist. And to another, Earthquake is a STAB that only Zapdos can take it (who is weak to Ice and can do nothing in return).

Mandibuzz: A terrible choice against BP team because currently BP doesn'0t boost Attack (boosted Foul Play) and Taunt is hard stopped by Espeon (one of the pokes it should beat) and Sylveon and Zapdos destroy it with his STAB.

Manaphy: Tail Glow boost Special Attack by 3 levels boosting faster than Espeon can Calm Mind. Have fun getting +3 SpA while Scolipede Protects. After that, only Vaporeon can stop (by risk a boosted Energy Ball).

Rotom-W: Trick Rotom-W works wonders. Stop the chain very hard but making one pokemon unusable causing to switch out. The main con ius that you can't easily use Will-o-wisp with Espeon alive.

Skarmory: A bad option versus BP teams. Brave Bird is too weak to be a serious threat to Scoipede at +2 (much less the rest of the team except Smeargle). However, Whirlwind is a good way to force it out if they don't predict correctly.

Dragonite will not find it easy to set up, scoli can set up an iron defence then go into sylveon who wrecks it with hypervoice
Ferro- after iron defences/acid armours it is set up fodder
Gengar- does threaten the stored power users with stabs but cannot do anything after cm boosts
Heatran- set up fodder for espy
kub- sylveon + vaporeon can beat it
lando-t- dont even mention sd
Latios- scoli can protect turn one and switch turn 2, the opponent should be aware of psychic STAB
Terrak- shut down by vaporeon
Megasaur- walled by espy, set up fodder
Breloom- espy can bounce back sleep, scoli can tank any hit
mamo- vaporeon deals with it
manaphy- it isnt easy to get a tg up, bp will know what you are doing and can play around
Skarm- whirlwind is obvious

I have been investigating how to take a team of BP and I think this can done realtively easy. If you want to defeat Bp teams.

Assume that the first pokemon is Scolipede (specially because it's the most threatening of the chain).

Pick a good choice against him (special Attackers are preferred because they aren't easy to set up boosts).
In the first turn, if you ahve a set up move, use it because it will likely Protect against you.
Then start attacking since turn 2.

If you decide to set up entry hazards, put the setter in the lead position. Also, the setter has to threathen Espeon and if you predict Espeon (like Tyranitar).

Don't use at all pokemon who are set up bait for BP teams, specially Deoxys-D. DeoxysD is an Espeon attracter like nobody.

Try to defeat Scolipede if you do, the chain is easy to break (you aren't guarantee to win, but this happens in almost every OU battle).

Status is great, but use it on pokemon who not fear the status thrown, like Fire types with Will-o.wisp or Poisons with Toxic.

Have an Steel member of your team with offensive presence to take Stored power and Hyper Voice.

Try to reserve pokemon that are heavily resisted by Scolipede + Espeon until those two are being defeated or seriouslyt damaged without boosts.

And most important, you are not guarantedd to win even if you applies those guidelines (and there are more): Hax exist, wrong prediction exists. Even top palyers can be defeated when Stone Edges missed against a Talonflame.

You can never assume scoli is the lead, good players can realise you have a talonflame/will predict that
No point in setting hazards, gives them a chance to set up
'Try to defeat Scolipede' - try to break the chain, who cares what mon. Scizor/zapdos is also sometimes used for speed

'Even top palyers can be defeated when Stone Edges missed against a Talonflame.'
Wtf how is that at all relevant to bp