I am aware of both of those things, I prefer to use sweeper Scolipede. I also never mentioned another pokemon it affects aside form those two. The main point of my post was to say that Scolipede and Espeon can be replaced with albeit worse alternatives. Why did you only rebut my last sentence?
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XY OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - BATON PASS [READ POST #590]
- Thread starter haunter
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Dread Arceus
total cockhead
WebBowser. Don't make me break out Aegislash again. You know as well as I do that any strong Special attacker stops a defense-boosting quick-passer cold.
I understand this is a OU focused Tier but as a player who play tiers besides OU (ie UU, RU & NU). This ban will affect tiers below OU so it's technically relevant to other tiers so I'll throw in my two cents.
If option 2 and 3 are the only options available I'd prefer Option 3, Although I do agree speed boost passing isn't broken. I don't think Baton pass chains in the lower tiers are broken, especially if you remove speed boost and have to depend on agility/rock polish/automatize/shift gear/quiver dance etc... Magic Bounce is the biggest barrier to stop a Baton pass chain and once that is out of the equation, taunt, roar, whirlwind encore and other support moves stop it dead more or less (Yes I understand there's soundproof Mr Mime [immune to roar] & oblivious Illumise [immune to taunt] but they can be overcome unlike magic bounce). Unless the community is willing to do a experiment to check if Baton pass chains are broken without magic bounce but still include speed boost.
Too bad we can't do a more complex ban like no speed boost and/or Magic bounce users on team with more then 3 baton pass users. (combine the best of option 2 and 3 lol)
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252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 217-256 (66.9 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 259-306 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Does it hurt? Heck yeah it does, but if he really needed to, Scoli can frequently take a hit from aegi (namely non-spell tag aegi) for an iron defense and pass to something like clefable or togekiss, which non flash cannon aegis can do very little to. Also, Aegi can do absolutely nothing to stop him from speed passing other then spam shadow ball and pray that he hits the swap in very hard, as shadow sneak does very little.
0 Atk Spell Tag Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 58-69 (17.9 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO
252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 63-75 (19.4 - 23.1%) -- possible 5HKO
As I have admitted in my analysis, special attackers do hinder scolipede in that he usually cannot use iron defense for free, but unless you can guarantee that you will have a special attacker out each time scolipede comes in, then all it really takes is for one to use something like Bisharp or Mamoswine to revenge kill one of your mons for scolipede to get the opportunity he needs.
Oh, and if the Scoli user really hated aegi, there is no reason in the world why he cannot run earthquake.
8 Atk Scolipede Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 252-298 (77.7 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
with just a small amount of prior damage, scoli can protect on the obvious shadow ball and then EQ for a free kill. Scoli can run rock slide to do this to the zards and weakened genies. Scolipede actually has ways to work around his counters if they are sufficiently weakened. Obviously, he only has four moveslots, which limits the shenanigans he can pull off, but this should still be scary to you.
Syberia The reason espeon is a problem on BP is that it is nearly impossible to kill once it has a couple of defensive boosts. If you couldn't pass it some super easy defense boosts with Scoli or Vaporeon, Espeon would be murdered by every self respecting phys attacker in the tier. Espeon is a perfect example of why a mon (Scolipede in this case) who has the ability to essentially nullify an entire side of the attacking spectrum and then pass that nullification to his allies is simply unhealthy for the metagame.
Also, for what it's worth, Espeon is actually a pretty sweet stallbreaker with CM, stored power, dazzling gleam/HP fighting and morning sun, try it out sometime, no Scolipede or BP needed.
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Electricstorm252
Option 3 actually nerfs BP quite hard. Against Stall, BP will basically have to lead smeargle and pray that he can get an ingrain off and live (and hopefully disable the enemy lead in the process). I'm sure stall has a smeargle anti-lead that it can field if needed (sableye immediately comes to mind, I'm sure there are others, it's smeargle for crying out loud). If BP leads anyone else, then stall is free to setup hazards and spam roar/whirlwind until the team is dead, and BP can do very little back.
Against offense, which is already BPs hardest match-up, they just lost their ability to setup on every physical attacker in the tier, Scolipede (no, vap cannot do the same thing, gets outsped too much). The fact that BP can no longer do that puts them at a severe disadvantage against offense.
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+2 Defense boosting moves, by nature, cancel out any weakness to a physical move the defending pokemon in question has, so what you're basically saying is that you think Staraptor and Terrakion should be able to OHKO almost anything with a neutral hit. That would be stupid and would make them overpowered (and CB Raptor can actually OHKO Scoli even after the +2 with max HP and Defense, which isn't an optimal spread for Scoli either so the real figure is much higher). After the +2 in defense, Scoli is now just another neutral target as far as both those attackers are concerned so it makes perfect sense that it should survive.
I am most certainly NOT saying starapter or terrakion should be able to OHKO almost any neutral hit, I AM saying that having physical bulk comparable to phys defensive deo-d while at the same time coming just shy of timid base 130 speed mons after a single turn is pretty stupid. The fact that Scolipede's stats are actually quite mediocre means that if those same boosts are passed to something like zard-x, gyarados, or any number of threatening sweepers that actually have decent bulk, they become nearly impossible to stop.
And no, I am not throwing around deo-d lightly, look
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Deoxys-D: 93-109 (30.5 - 35.8%) -- 40.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Scolipede: 70-84 (21.6 - 25.9%) -- 1.8% chance to 4HKO
I just couldn't quite make recs before you stopped the Suspect Test, but I have a screenshot of me peaking 74 on the Suspect Ladder. Is there ever any wiggle room to cast a vote even though you didn't quite make recs (though obviously could have if i had time for another 15-20 battles)?
I don't agree at all.
Myth 1) The fact that they take much less skill than most other playstyles (no, Deosharp HO does not count) is absolutely correct. It gets free wins against many standard teams, and the team I laddered with, peaking at #11 on the suspect ladder - mentioned only so you know I actually built a solid team, had two supposedly "solid" answers to BP, yet the BP player could still beat me quite easily if they didn't choke - the fact that in about 60 - 70% of cases they did should show you how players are getting rankings that they don't deserve using it. It is worth noting at this point that most teams can only pack in one answer to BP, because most of the stuff that does well against it, although it isn't non-standard, isn't just easily splashed on any team. This means that the match is immediately in the BP player's favour because their opponent has two choices
a) Lead off with their BP "counter".
b) Lose instantly.
This makes it much easier for the BP user to play around the BP "counter" - as they are relatively easy to identify, and very few pokemon are actually hard stops to BP.
Myth 2) No, but most are niche. Nasty Plot + Taunt Thundurus is strong against BP, but it is not very useful against most other playstyles, as it loses its main strength of prankster t-wave. Taunt Mega Gya loses out on crucial coverage in its fourth moveslot, as does Mega Gardevoir. Whilst it is true that many ways to stop BP are viable in OU, they are still made noticeably worse by being forced to run moves that they would not normally.
Myth 3) Teams that don't run specific BP counters do. In fact, in most cases, crits don't matter because the BP player just sets up subs.
Myth 4) Who says this is garbage? We could exist in a meta with Mega Kangaskhan again if we wanted to, the reason why we don't is because seeing it, Sableye, and something that beats Sableye, such as Sylveon, on every team just isn't enjoyable. The fact is that Baton Pass is centralising in the meta because it requires pokemon that aren't useful in most other situations, or have suboptimal movesets, in order to beat it. In the same way that Mega Kangaskhan, Mega Lucario, and Mega Blaziken had a short list of checks/counters, so does BP.
Myth 5) Just a rephrasing of myth 4 honestly, but endless copypasting of the same team over and over again isn't really what I wanted to see when I discovered Showdown, and I think most people share my opinion.
If a BP player makes a mistake, it is possible to restart the chain, even if it is difficult - dEniSsSs has done so many times in his matches at the top of the ladder. However, if the other player makes just one mistake, it is game over. That is not fair, as the BP player gets the advantage right from the get-go.
Just to be 100% clear, I am absolutely part of the "BP is cancer" squad, and I will be so until it is banned - stop shaming people for thinking that copypasting a team that practically runs on autopilot once you get enough experience with it and then getting high rankings against better players is stupid, it is absolutely logical.
Say the majority of qualified voters want to nerf Baton Pass Chains in some way, but, are divided between options 2 and 3 would option 1 win? For example if 10 people vote for option 1, 9 vote for option 2, and 9 vote for option 3 what would happen? Would option 1 win even though most people want to nerf Baton Pass Chains one way or another?
Uh Garde doesn't run an attack in its fourth slot. Wisp, Taunt, and Calm Mind are what it usually uses. I mean Shadow Ball is okay but you're literally only hitting Aegislash with it, when is really hates Wisp anyway. Psyshock, Focus Blast and Fae Scream of Death are really good coverage. So no Taunt is not something it would not normally run. It needs either that or Calm Mind to break through Chansey.
This was covered earlier in the thread. If 2+3 outnumber 1, there will be a second vote or something cause that means majority of people wanted to nerf BP.
Fine, my mistake. However, the team might otherwise benefit more from CM Garde, but can't use it. Alternatively, Gardevoir doesn't mix in with just any team, so Gardevoir may not even be the optimal choice in the first place, but the player has to use it anyway, when they may benefit in all other scenarios from a different fairy, such as Mawile for priority sucker punch, or Sylveon for cleric support.
Whilst this was a good catch, I still believe that my point of teams having to make themselves weaker in all other scenarios other than against Baton Pass to have a chance of beating it still stands.
You should never base your decisions about OU tiering with lower tiers in mind. You should only be voting for the option you thing is best for the OU metagame, and OU metagame only. Of course i can't enforce you to not vote with lower tiers in mind, just posting to let you know which is the right mindset.
It really doesn't matter since all of the good Baton Passers are OU right now anyway. Option 2 would actually make Baton Pass better in UU since Espeon, Vaporeon, and maybe Scolipede, Sylveon, Smeargle, and Zapdos would drop to UU. But like you said, we shouldn't give a shit about what happens to UU. They can clean up the mess we dump on them if they need to.
Dread Arceus
total cockhead
The point is that Scolipede can't really get it off without taking damage itself, and the switch-in isn't going to take the hit easily either. Aegislash is just a single example; Specs Keldeo, Landorus, Thundurus, and any other number of special attackers in the tier can cause it, or its switch-in to be within range of revenge killing, if not outright killing the switchin.
Speed Boost and Magic Bounce are the cornerstones of Baton Pass and it would fall apart without them. Speed Boost gives them switch initiative while Magic Bounce shuts down 90% of the things that would otherwise stop the chain easily. Option 2 doesn't address these issues and lets mini BP chains run around with 3 final recipients/supplementary support Mons and is not guaranteed to solve the issue either.
Free stat boost with no downside and no risk, and if used at least somewhat correctly, it's basically a free stat boost every other turn. Honestly, I'm surprised the ability in itself isn't banned, it's pretty much a less risky Moody.
I'm just gonna say the voting system is unfair, if option 2 was going solo against option 3 it would always win because people who don't want baton pass to be nerfed would probably prefer the option that at least leaves some small chain pass, the way the voting system is now this abomination that is option 3 can win despite not being what the people really want.
Seevea Revenge kill range? What would there be to revenge kill the sweeper? If your aegi loses to whoever I pass defense and speed to, there is no "revenge killer", as the boosted defense means I take a pittance from all but the strongest super effective priority, and the speed boost allows me to outspeed anything that isn't priority. Unless you have a full hp sashmon, or a super bulky, healthy phazer in reserve, you will get swept.
The fact that aegi and lando happen to work well as an anti-lead against scoli has more to do with the fact that they have very few offensive swap ins as opposed to any sort of weakness of scolipede's.
bwburke94 I have been trying at length to prove that Iron Defense Scolipede is simply too strong and needs to be dealt with. Is there anything about my recent arguments that you find unconvincing? I fully agree that if Iron Defense Scolipede is in fact not broken, then option 3 is a bad idea, but from my personal experiences and arguments I have seen posted, I remain unconvinced that Scolipede is not a problem.
The fact that aegi and lando happen to work well as an anti-lead against scoli has more to do with the fact that they have very few offensive swap ins as opposed to any sort of weakness of scolipede's.
bwburke94 I have been trying at length to prove that Iron Defense Scolipede is simply too strong and needs to be dealt with. Is there anything about my recent arguments that you find unconvincing? I fully agree that if Iron Defense Scolipede is in fact not broken, then option 3 is a bad idea, but from my personal experiences and arguments I have seen posted, I remain unconvinced that Scolipede is not a problem.
Yeah I played a variant of stall throughout the suspect test period so I know how annoying it was. We're not disagreeing; it's the synergy of Espeon and [Baton Pass mon], namely Scolipede I suppose, that's the problem. Oh well, option 3 takes care of them both, lol.
The replays are a few posts up by now. It's not passing Speed Boost by itself that's the problem, it's using that speed to get free defense boosts AND speed initiative to pass before you're hit again. Scolipede + Togekiss was pulling off sweeps by itself way easier than it should have been, with Espeon on backup in case the opponent could actually do something to break the chain. In fact, this type of team might be even more deadly than a full chain, especially in an environment where everyone is playing to counter BP, as you can lead with a "normal" Pokemon and play semi-normally until the opponent's BP counter has been dealt with, and then it's off to the races.
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You've just opened a massive can of worms there.
Now if you excuse me, I need to go find someone I legitimately hate and use this on them.
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Every balanced team should have some form of offensive power, thats what differentiates them from stall in the first place. And even if we say it doesnt, it would need some kind of wallbreaker like sub whisp Gengar instead, otherwise BP isnt going to be its only problem, stall will be just as bad.
And yes stall has to use stuff like Haze if it wants to have a chance but i realy dont think that gimmick is the right word here. If a set or move allows you to deal with a common threat then thats not a gimmick, especially not if its the best option to beat that threat. Stall teams have to adapt all the time to the threats that are used, if a certain threat becomes popular, stall has to adapt to deal with it. So if BP is a popular threat to stall then its only fitting if stall has to adapt to that by using Haze or what ever else works for them. That whole post of yours shows perfectly how incredibly biased most people here are when it comes to BP. If a poke becomes popular on stall because it deals with a common threat like Charizard thats totaly fine, even if that poke is basicly a must on stall because of that, but dedicating a single move slot to deal with BP thats overcentralizing the meta and totaly gimmicky. Imo there are 2 different measures applied here.
To me there is no difference between BP and any other Pokemon/set or whatever threat that becomes popular on the ladder and therefor must be prepared for. When building a team i simply have to think of a way to deal with BP in addition to all the other threats.
Things Quagsire beats: DD Xard, DD LumNite, Bisharp, Garchomp (lacking Outrage), Tyranitar, Mamoswine, pretty much any physical attacker lacking a SE coverage move.
Things Haze beats: Baton Pass... That's it.
Yeah no. Quagsire being used to defeat Xard doesn't make Xard overcentralizing because he beats other things aside from Xard. Haze does nothing except beat Baron Pass.
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