Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Emerld Shuckle]

ive been seeig some people attempting to tell me diggersby does some things better than mega pinsir. While this is true for SR weakness, for anything else, it is not.

Regarding SD diggersby

Diggersby like really struggles to ever get an SD up. most things hit it too hard for it to SD, or wall it too hard. SDing is very risky and normally should only be used upon predicting a switch, even then its riskiy.

SD Pinsir on the other hand takes psyical hits way better, and scares way more out, so SDing isnt as hard.

Diggersby, regardless for quick attack, is too slow. Anything living its QA is probs gonna own it, and anything fatser with priority (Mega Lucario :)) is going to end diggersbys life. While Mega Pinsir is weak to brave bird, keep in mind fighting priority can be found on multiplr pokemon.

Mega Pinsir is way faster. This is good, meaning it can outspeed and killl way more than diggersby can. It also actully has a very powerfull QA and Return thanks to Aerialate, and is likley to me killing alot.

I also hate how diggersby is easily worn down. Remember the LO argument? well, if Diggersby needs LO to wear down threats, and Mega Pinsir doesnt need LO to have boosted power on its return, it means the LO is wearing down diggersby so OHKOing it is easier, while mega pinsir never has this issue. Diggersby faces the problem where its CB set is done almost entirely better (argue against this, you havent yet) by azumarril, and its SD set is done almost entirley better by mega pinisr. Its has a unique agility set, but thats quite bad.

C rank for Diggersby.

I'm trying to not to bring personal anecdotes into this, but I have never had much trouble getting a SD up. It's all about prediction. Yes, normally you would SD on the switch. The problem is: who is the opponent going to bring out against Diggersby that isn't Annihilated by a Quick Attack the next turn, or destroyed by a incoming Return and Earthquake. What can actually switch safely into Diggersby?

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 281-331 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 1050-1237 (272 - 320.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Diggersby is also naturally faster than Heatran even uninvested, so even if it mispredicts, it can KO)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 507-595 (170.1 - 199.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hell,
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 257-304 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO After Stealth Rock it's done.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 344-407 (115.4 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 270-320 (90.6 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 250-294 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO then KOd by Quick Attack
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 374-442 (124.6 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery If you put I think 79 speed evs in, you outspeed it and 2HKO next turn
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 242-285 (88.9 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 308-363 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Now let's go to the S rank for more fun.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 234-277 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
MEGA VENUSAUR CANNOT SWITCH INTO DIGGERSBY. Even with an SD, with the speed EVs, you will be able to OHKO back the next turn.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 320-378 (113 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hell
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 162-191 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's still a huge chunk.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 611-720 (217.4 - 256.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or even
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 156-183 (55.5 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 308-363 (101.3 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And finally
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In conclusion: There is not a single S rank or A+ rank pokemon that can switch into Diggersby
I'll gladly do the calcs for the A rank but I think you'll see that they'll mostly prove the same point.

EDIT: Not trying to come off as angry, I'm just emphasizing how cool it is that a little bunny can pack that much punch. How damn, whoever thought this guy would be useful when they first saw it? Go on, I'll wait.

EDIT 2:
One more note: On what it means to be a B rank
>Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous
This is why I think Diggersby is B. Because while it is partially (or mostly) out preformed by M-Pinsir, it is not completely out performed.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Is Crawdaunt really only C+? I honestly think of it as a much more powerful, threatening, and USEFUL Pokemon than many in the B range. I think it should be at least B if not B+.

Staraptor probably needs a higher rank as well...

 

[Jaroda]

This is not agreed upon at all.

Nominal support. Sure. Who cares about number of resistances when you're weak to SR. It goes from being an okay Greninja check to murdered by it, and can't take a Stone Edge for its life (common coverage). Those are nice resistances, and Rotom-H has merit in handling Genesect nicely, but it's even less complicated to wear down than Rotom-W, and falters against many other OU threats. For these reasons, I can't see Rotom-H above B-.

Stone Miss is no Earthquake for reliable coverage. Scarf sets can actually handle many things that would threaten with Rock moves with either Overheat (Excadrill) or Will-O-Wisp (Tyranitar). Scarf can OHKO Greninja with a Volt Switch with certain spreads, or Overheat if it used Ice Beam. There aren't many fast Water types anymore, and things like Manaphy, Gyarados and Slowbro take super effective Volt Change while Rotom-H makes a toasty escape. And yes, I would say nominal support because having Defog/Rapid Spin is not so difficult to throw onto your team in some fashion. Defensive Mega Scizor for example loves the Fire resistance and status absorption from H and Defogs fairly easily, or Latias who can resist Water. He's a support mon that has an easier time getting some KOs than W thanks to Overheat. B at least, B+ at most.

 

[Punchshroom]

Is Crawdaunt really only C+? I honestly think of it as a much more powerful, threatening, and USEFUL Pokemon than many in the B range. I think it should be at least B if not B+.

Staraptor probably needs a higher rank as well...

Yeah C+ is imo a little too low for Crawdaunt. It ultimately draws comparisons with Azumarill: both have wonderful dual STABs, a powerful Aqua Jet, but are pretty damn slow. Crawdaunt not only wins out slightly in the power department (in terms of STAB), but if it gets the chance to boost it doesn't have to deplete 50% of its HP to do so. The problem with Crawdaunt is that unlike Azumarill, its has really shitty bulk to go with its speed, and offers very little defensive synergy in return (so what if it resists Ghost, lol); Azumarill can at least fall back on its better bulk and fantastic resists to retaliate back instead of being forced to Aqua Jet anything faster, making it a far better team player. Adamant Crawdaunt just barely outruns 0 Spe Rotom-W, though I can imagine 0 Spe Rotom-W falling out of favor anyway since 8 Spe EVs is something Rotom-W can easily spare. While Crawdaunt's Aqua Jets are certainly powerful, it is extremely difficult to find the right opportunity to boost when just about everything can hurt / cripple you: even Mandibuzz can smack you with Foul Play. Crawdaunt's horrible Speed means Dragon Dance won't carry it very far so that's a good boosting move wasted on Crawdaunt, just do SD. Finally, if you're only interested in Knock Off's effect rather than Dark STAB, Azumarill knows Knock Off as well so Crawdaunt is usually used only by players who go out of their way to use Crawdaunt. B- is probably the most realistic rank Crawdaunt could be placed.

As for Staraptor, it definitely sees better usage now, but it isn't really that great on its own since its most prominent role is to provide offensive support Talonflame / Mega Pinsir / similiar Flying-types. Of course there is always the issue of dying quickly what with all the recoil. Reckless Brave Birds hurt, but if going solo then I think I'd rather use even Braviary over it, which boasts Staraptor's Flying-resist lure / wallbreaking capability and has Defiant + Shadow Claw to combat Aegislash. B- is fine for Raptor imo.

....Speaking of Braviary, could it possibly be a substitute for Staraptor?

 

[Rotosect]

I agree with those who said Deoxys-S should be lowered to A+ (maybe even A) rank because it isn't S-rank good.
From the suspect test topic:

Deoxys-S isn't that good.
For starters it's predictable. Yes you read that right, I said predictable.
If it's used as a lead then you know it's the standard entry hazard setter that Deoxys-D does a million times better in this metagame. Deo-S will usually lay down SR and a layer of Spikes, only to get KO'd and have them removed by Defog later in the match. Deoxys-D will be able to come in and lay down hazards multiple times durng the match, thanks to its superior bulk and the ability to make use of Recover.
If it's not leading then Deo-S is most likely running the LO set, often lauded as one of the best revenge killers in the tier, but that's where its major flaw is: it's strictly a revenge killer.
It's not like Scarf Garchomp or Talonflame that can double as wallbreakers or sweepers if you need them to do so, Deo-S's attacks are just too weak to do anything other than revenge killing weakened targets.
Against teams carrying bulky offensive powerhouses such as Aegislash, Kyurem-B and Mega Mawile it's pretty much dead weight. It doesn't help that its most powerful moves, Psycho Boost and Superpower, have those nasty Atk/Sp.Atk drops which turns it into set up bait.

 

[aVocado]

....Speaking of Braviary, could it possibly be a substitute for Staraptor?

It's got a little bit more bulk than Staraptor, but I'd take 100 speed over 80 any day of the week, even if it means giving up 20 base HP.

 

[Salt]

It's got a little bit more bulk than Staraptor, but I'd take 100 speed over 80 any day of the week, even if it means giving up 20 base HP.

Braviary has Defiant, so it can switch into Defog a-la Bisharp and do some serious damage. Too bad Sticky Web doesn't affect it.

 

[aVocado]

Braviary has Defiant, so it can switch into Defog a-la Bisharp and do some serious damage. Too bad Sticky Web doesn't affect it.

Oh, I didn't notice that. I guess that can give it the advantage of being able to run Scarf; but that would depend a little bit too much on Defog, and would lack in power without the Defiant boost.

 

[Colonial]

Banning speculation aside, I can see M-Venu moving down to A+ if Genesect is banned, in a manner similar to the ice cube analogy made in regards to centralization. Psychic-types are far too big of a liability in OU these days when they're forced out by a +1 U-turn regardless of their speed tier (unlike CB Scizor). Looking at the 1850 stats, only Lati@s, Deo-D/S, Alakazam, and Espeon made the cut. And since Psychic-type is never seen as a coverage move, M-Venusaur pretty much only has one weakness in this metagame.

Wait... so you say venusaur will move down if Genesect is banned? Even though Venusaur isn't really used as a genesect counter and it's S for completely different reasons? And then you make a statement about how useful it is? Is there a misunderstanding here, Venusaur wasn't in S because of Genesect.

Oh and I believe that Venusaur discussion is, not banned per se, but heavily discouraged. It's been beaten to death, no good arguments have been made for it's moving, and it's staying S.

 

[Salemance]

Hmm, well I guess this is as good a time as any to see what halls thoughts are on Crobat since Braviary seems to be getting mentioned too.

With a great set consisting of moves that often allow him to add great pressure to his opponents via Taunt and U-Turn and having access to the newly huffed infiltrator make him a great counter to a lot of old favorite sets to new ones (the sub punch to the sub seeding) allow him to punish lots of opponentts.

Yet he can even act as a utility mon with Decoy access and fairly great defensively typing with stats that can generally make it work (often lives a lot more than I give him credit for) and has access to the great 130 speed teir, allowing him to out speed many a new threat.

Sadly Crobat is not without his faults. Often he is in the position of having rather lack luster coverage (Steel and Rock types easily walling both of his STABs) with low base power moves outside of Brave Bird. His attack stats are also not the best around, which further compacts his ability to deal damage on somekey threats.

Then his new ability, while a great one, has the nasty side effect of not breaking the sub. Meaning if the bat can not deal with it, he will not be able to break said sub for the guy coming in next (may not be a problem with taunt but worth saying).

So what do you think? Is Crobat worth a possible ranking alongside these other birds or no?

 

[Mcdoodles]

I personally feel like Malamar should get a little more love! its not the most powerful pokemon, thats understandable but it is very good! and it can be a set up nightmare. Bringing in a malamar on an Aegislash physical aegislash trying to set up can really mess everything up with a nice topsy turvy!


+4 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Malamar: 108-127 (67 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(108, 109, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 118, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127)

As you can see right there a +4 252 Atk shadow sneak can't OhKo a Malamar with full Defense investment. Even AFTER stealth rock. While a sacred sword could. Most wouldn't risk it unless they had a very nice predict into Malamar. And with both pokes having no speed investment (which if i recall correctly they usually do) a clean switch into a Malamar on a sweeping Aegislash can put it down with topsy-turvy, then take it out with a night slash or just go straight for the night slash, still i don't think Malamar is getting quite enough credit for its bulk!

 

[Jin White]

I'm trying to not to bring personal anecdotes into this, but I have never had much trouble getting a SD up. It's all about prediction. Yes, normally you would SD on the switch. The problem is: who is the opponent going to bring out against Diggersby that isn't Annihilated by a Quick Attack the next turn, or destroyed by a incoming Return and Earthquake. What can actually switch safely into Diggersby?

252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 281-331 (82.4 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 1050-1237 (272 - 320.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO (Diggersby is also naturally faster than Heatran even uninvested, so even if it mispredicts, it can KO)
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 507-595 (170.1 - 199.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hell,
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 257-304 (86.2 - 102%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO After Stealth Rock it's done.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 344-407 (115.4 - 136.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 270-320 (90.6 - 107.3%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Garchomp: 250-294 (70 - 82.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO then KOd by Quick Attack
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Thundurus: 374-442 (124.6 - 147.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 192-227 (63.1 - 74.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery If you put I think 79 speed evs in, you outspeed it and 2HKO next turn
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 242-285 (88.9 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 308-363 (96.2 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

Now let's go to the S rank for more fun.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 234-277 (64.2 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
MEGA VENUSAUR CANNOT SWITCH INTO DIGGERSBY. Even with an SD, with the speed EVs, you will be able to OHKO back the next turn.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 320-378 (113 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hell
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Genesect: 162-191 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
That's still a huge chunk.
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 611-720 (217.4 - 256.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or even
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Lucario: 156-183 (55.5 - 65.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 308-363 (101.3 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
And finally
252+ Atk Life Orb Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 390-460 (120.3 - 141.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In conclusion: There is not a single S rank or A+ rank pokemon that can switch into Diggersby
I'll gladly do the calcs for the A rank but I think you'll see that they'll mostly prove the same point.

EDIT: Not trying to come off as angry, I'm just emphasizing how cool it is that a little bunny can pack that much punch. How damn, whoever thought this guy would be useful when they first saw it? Go on, I'll wait.

EDIT 2:
One more note: On what it means to be a B rank
>Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous
This is why I think Diggersby is B. Because while it is partially (or mostly) out preformed by M-Pinsir, it is not completely out performed.

These calcs are cool af, but your logic is flawed. None of these pokémon are switching in to Diggersby, ever, with the exception (maybe) of M-Venusaur. Who switches in Heatran or Aegislash or Lucario to a Ground type? Impressive, but irrelevant damage calcs.

You want to show relevant damage calcs versus realistic switch-ins, like Skarmory and Gliscor or Lando-T. 1v1 Diggersby loses to just about all the pokes you listed, which is why they can't be used to determine Diggersby's actual viability.

 

[Numera]

I personally feel like Malamar should get a little more love! its not the most powerful pokemon, thats understandable but it is very good! and it can be a set up nightmare. Bringing in a malamar on an Aegislash physical aegislash trying to set up can really mess everything up with a nice topsy turvy!


+4 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Malamar: 108-127 (67 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(108, 109, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 118, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127)

As you can see right there a +4 252 Atk shadow sneak can't OhKo a Malamar with full Defense investment. Even AFTER stealth rock. While a sacred sword could. Most wouldn't risk it unless they had a very nice predict into Malamar. And with both pokes having no speed investment (which if i recall correctly they usually do) a clean switch into a Malamar on a sweeping Aegislash can put it down with topsy-turvy, then take it out with a night slash or just go straight for the night slash, still i don't think Malamar is getting quite enough credit for its bulk!

question is, is Bulky Malamr even viable? Ive only ever used Malamr once, as a superpower scarfer, and it was shit. Sorry for my launguage, its just my opinion on it.

Topsy Turvy is a bearly viable niche, as is its Superpower contrary, which is easily stopped by any faster special attacker, or even ghost type. Having a niche that has almost no place in OU gives it D rank if you ask me, seems to fit the description perfectly.

If Sacred Sword can OHKO, of corse they would risk it. Topsy Turvy is one of the most unviable things ever and a player wouldnt even consider using it. the problem with Topsy Turvy is that its redundant, the stat drops are removed via swithcing, unlike a status like burn.

 

[azureleaf17]

Wait... so you say venusaur will move down if Genesect is banned? Even though Venusaur isn't really used as a genesect counter and it's S for completely different reasons? And then you make a statement about how useful it is? Is there a misunderstanding here, Venusaur wasn't in S because of Genesect.

Oh and I believe that Venusaur discussion is, not banned per se, but heavily discouraged. It's been beaten to death, no good arguments have been made for it's moving, and it's staying S.

Read his comment. It's not that Venusaur counters Genesect or vice versa, but because Genesect can OHKO nearly every Psychic-type in the tier with a (potentially boosted) STAB U-Turn, making Psychic typing a major liability. If Genesect leaves, Psychic-type usage will probably rise and Venusaur will have to face a lot more threats. Maybe not enough to drop it out of S-Rank (which I support — I started the Venusaur thread 'cause I'm a fanboy ^^), but the metagame shift will definitely hurt it. Same thing happened in Generation V — when Genesect was running wild in OU, it centralized the metagame so much things that could counter it jumped in usage and things that couldn't (Psychic-types in particular) didn't do so well.

 

[Colonial]

I personally feel like Malamar should get a little more love! its not the most powerful pokemon, thats understandable but it is very good! and it can be a set up nightmare. Bringing in a malamar on an Aegislash physical aegislash trying to set up can really mess everything up with a nice topsy turvy!


+4 252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Malamar: 108-127 (67 - 78.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(108, 109, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 117, 118, 118, 120, 121, 123, 124, 126, 127)

As you can see right there a +4 252 Atk shadow sneak can't OhKo a Malamar with full Defense investment. Even AFTER stealth rock. While a sacred sword could. Most wouldn't risk it unless they had a very nice predict into Malamar. And with both pokes having no speed investment (which if i recall correctly they usually do) a clean switch into a Malamar on a sweeping Aegislash can put it down with topsy-turvy, then take it out with a night slash or just go straight for the night slash, still i don't think Malamar is getting quite enough credit for its bulk!

The problem is, you're talking about SD Aegislash, which is a terrible set and can be handled by most things anyway. Aegislash isn't best used as a sweeper, it's far more effective as a nuke with max Special Attack and Shadow Ball- and that's how most people use it. Also, Aegis most definitely would go for the Sacred Sword, seeing as it's a OHKO and Malamar can only hit back with the very weak Night Slash.

Malamar is also outclassed in terms of defenses: It has 2 weaknesses, one of which is a 4x weakness, and NO resistances except for an immunity to Psychic. It's really illogical to have max defense on malamar, and being somewhat able to check Aegislash's worst set isn't any reason to move it. Mandibuzz completely outclasses it as a bulky Dark-type and Aegislash counter.

Finally, one move on a pokemon that's OHKO'd by most sweepers anyway isn't that great. Whirlwind, Haze, and Unaware are all better options. or just not letting the opponent set up.

Malamar has it's place in the OU Metagame with Contrary Superpower, but it just doesn't have what it takes to diversify from that niche.

Read his comment. It's not that Venusaur counters Genesect or vice versa, but because Genesect can OHKO nearly every Psychic-type in the tier with a (potentially boosted) STAB U-Turn, making Psychic typing a major liability. If Genesect leaves, Psychic-type usage will probably rise and Venusaur will have to face a lot more threats. Maybe not enough to drop it out of S-Rank (which I support — I started the Venusaur thread 'cause I'm a fanboy ^^), but the metagame shift will definitely hurt it. Same thing happened in Generation V — when Genesect was running wild in OU, it centralized the metagame so much things that could counter it jumped in usage and things that couldn't (Psychic-types in particular) didn't do so well.

I suspected I was being an idiot and not understanding his argument. That's definitely true, Genesect is making life hell for the Psychics of OU and without the Terminator they'll be able to breathe again. However, there aren't many OU Psychics anyway, and even with Genesect (potentially) gone there's still Aegislash to oppress them.

I'm not sure more Psychics is going to make Venu's life significantly harder. They won't help of course, but 2 weaknesses is still a small amount, especially when those 2 types are rarely seen outside of STAB. But I think we're dancing on the edge of a situation where we'll both be arguing about the same thing, Venu is S, so I'll shut up about him and wait for the next subject.

 

[Gary]

Pardon me if there's something I missed here, but why are we still refusing to add an A- Rank? I understand why we only had two A Ranks last generation, because there wasn't nearly as much Pokemon in A- Rank to consider having 3 ranks, but now A is a huge clusterfuck with Pokemon that are easily teetering between A and B+ rank, but aren't necessarily B+ rank. I personally think we should add this rank so A is a lot more well organized and we can have a more clear separation between the almighty A rank and the decent B+ rank. Personally, here's how I think A- Rank should start off looking like, but we can definitely discuss it more if it were to be added. I'll analyze both the A and B+ ranks to see if anything could fit in the A- rank. Remember, please don't try to argue against my rankings, because if we don't have an A- Rank yet, then there's no point in arguing where they should be placed until then. I'm not trying to derail the thread.

A-

Mega Medicham

Gliscor

Skarmory

Volcarona

Hippowdon

B+

Chansey

Clefable

Togekiss

Crawdaunt

Thundurus-T

Alright, so this is what I think the rankings would look like if there was an A- rank. Now I know there's still not nearly as much Pokemon in A- rank then there are A, but there were quite a few Pokemon that were in A rank that definitely weren't as good as the others, but at the same time they were not B+ material either. I know people were discussing dropping Mega Medicham to B+ rank, and I can't really say much about it because it's somewhat hard to consider over Mega Lucario ATM, but once that bitch is banned, I can see it becoming a lot more viable, and it will probably be a solid A- rank Pokemon. It still suffers from below average Speed, sub-par bulk, and 4th moveslot syndrome, but it's incredibly powerful, has great coverage, and can even use priority Bullet Punch to pick off faster Pokemon and Mega Evolve quickly. Aegislash can't reliably switch into because it's easily 2HKOed by Fire Punch, and without Max Attack it can't really check it well with Shadow Sneak. It's also lethal behind a Substitute, being able to take out a minimum of 1-2 Pokemon if played right. It's still pretty subjective, and Mega Lucario just overshadows it so much at the moment, but it seems very solid to me.

Gliscor does not deserve to be in the same ranking as Landorus-T, regardless of its amazing Toxic stall abilities and potential to run Defog. It's a great stall Pokemon and has incredible physical bulk with reliable healing allowing it to function as a more reliable physical wall than Landorus-T, but it's just not nearly as easy to fit onto teams, nor is it as good as a pivot. It's still very solid though, and should definitely stay in the upper ranks. Despite its low usage, Hippo is incredible at the moment, especially with Thundurus and powerful offensive juggernauts running around. It's definitely a great defensive Pokemon, and deserves to be high on the list because of its ability to wall a huge portion of the meta, while having great utility. The fact that it's already not on the list irks me, because it's pretty significant. Skarmory is also arguably even better than it was last generation, especially with the ability to run a Defog set, and the absence of powerful rain boosted attacks. It fails to wall a good portion of the metagame, but it's still obscenely bulky and has the ability to use Spikes, Stealth Rock, or Defog to support a team. Definitely high A- rank, and could potentially be A rank IMO.

Last but not least, Volcarona was not on this list, and it's making me sad. The buff to Defog makes Volcarona that much easier to fit onto teams, and its offensive and defensive sweeping sets are still deadly sweepers. The biggest issue is that Mega Pinsir and Talonflame are everywhere, and the omnipresent Heatran forces it to run HP Ground again to get around it, but it's still insane. It could potentially even be A rank material, but I don't see it being as successful as most of the other A rank sweepers due to the massive prevalence of its common checks and counters. A- rank seems fine to me. I also just went ahead and put Crawdaunt in B+, because it's not anywhere near as good as Azumarill, but even with its fragility and lack of useful Dragon-type immunity, it's one of the most powerful Pokemon in the OU metagame, and a CB Aqua Jet is even more powerful than Azumarill's. Knock Off is also incredibly powerful, and every time it gets a free switch-in something is pretty much guaranteed to die. I could see it maybe being B material, but I've found a ton of success with it, and I've been destroyed by it many of times. Seems to me like it's good enough for B+. Also Thundurus-T is still a very good Pokemon despite being completely outclassed. Unlike Thundurus is can also run a better Agility or Double Dance set, which gives it a niche of its own. However, being outclassed horribly keeps it from going any higher than B+.

Well anyways there's my thoughts. This is probably all for naught because I'm pretty sure the OU Mods are still very against having an A- rank for some reason, but it'd be very nice if they took this into consideration, because I think it would make ranking Pokemon a lot more flexible and organized. Remember, don't discuss my A- rankings unless an A- rank is added lol.

 

[Jaroda]

Braviary - Looking at him makes you want to weep, he is outclassed so hard by the other birds. While he has the best bulk of them by far (100/75/75) and even edges out Staraptor barely in raw attack power (123 vs 120) his speed lets him down and his abilities simply don't compare. While Sheer Force is a brilliant ability, Braviary just does not have the movepool to take advantage it. Outside of Rock Slide and STAB Rock Climb/Crush Claw, he gets no good physical moves to abuse the boost. Sure he gets Brave Bird and Super Power for wall breaking, but Staraptor has Reckless to boost his Brave Bird and Close Combat too, which is can be better spammed than Superpower. This relegates it to Defiant, which is nice with Defog and Intimidate users, but Bisharp does it better with better defensive typing and STAB Sucker Punch. Braviary is put in the best position if he comes in on Defog, scares the Defogger out and then gets the turn to set up Tailwind before spamming Brave Bird/Superpower/Rockslide/Return but what Defog users is he forcing out? His one niche is that he can learn Shadow Claw so he isn't a sitting duck against Aegeslash like Staraptor but based purely on theorey, D+/C- for him.

 

[Ramplestilskin]

Can somebody reminds me why Tentacruel is better than Starmie plz, as the first is B-Rank while the second is only B- -Rank ?

 

[Redwings1340]

Nominating Heliolisk for a C rank. Honestly I think he might be better than that, but I'll settle for a mention and debate for now since nobody else seems overly in love with this guy.

I've been using dry skin, choice specs: volt switch, surf, dark pulse, focus blast, with a modest nature and +speed/sp attack evs.

The first three moves I think are necessary, but grass knot or a hidden power might be better as option 4, although focus miss does have its uses. I'm also unsure between choice specs and life orb, for reasons I'll explain later.

I've been using this guy a lot, and I think he is dramatically underrated. His first use is in checking Azumarill, Aegislash, and other bulky water pokemon. He can switch in to any water or ghost type moves, and since he mostly switches in on pokemon who rely on a priority move he is immune to, or on slower pokemon, he outspeeds the pokemon he needs to to function effectively.

This guy is absolutely not a sweeper unless a sufficiently late game situation calls for it. What he is, though, is a momentum boosting denter. He is not meant to take any hits, so volt switch is his move of choice most of the time unless you can kill something. He kills some things if he can actually land a super effective attack, but his volt switch will usually cause a fair amount of damage even to pokemon that resist or are neutral to it, and more importantly, can set you up with a nice advantage next turn.

While the OU thread from a while back has been talking about his weakness to priority users, the biggest weakness I've noticed with him is that ground type pokemon really can ruin the strategy I'm going for with him. He doesn't need to defeat pokemon, just make them weaker so the rest of my team can deal with them a little easier, and volt switch in to a pokemon that can take a hit. If a ground type pokemon switches in on a specs volt switch, my opponent gains momentum and gets a good type matchup for the next round, so you need to make sure to design the rest of your team to cover this flaw. Heliolisk isn't supposed to take hits, so life orb isn't too damaging to it, but the lack of power compared to choice specs might make this a bad choice.

Edit: Here's a video showing off what Heliolisk can do. In an OU match he nets me 3 KOs, and turns the tide of the battle in my favor with a switch in on Rotom-W and his subsequent volt switch on t-13. He singlehandedly saved my team from being swept once, and from being in a bad position another few times. This isn't a standard sweep pokemon, but it will dish out damage and put you in a better position for the entire battle.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-82293185

 

[Xcreated]

Can some one post the comment arguing kabutops' ranking? I just want to know why he's there. I haven't seen a single person use him ever.

 

[Josh Morales]

Can some one post the comment arguing kabutops' ranking? I just want to know why he's there. I haven't seen a single person use him ever.

Swift Swim+Drizzle is legal, period.

 

[Schpoonman]

Can somebody reminds me why Tentacruel is better than Starmie plz, as the first is B-Rank while the second is only B- -Rank ?

Starmie is mostly outclassed as a spinner by Excadrill, who beats every spinblocker. Starmie cannot get through SpDef Jellicent with the nerf to Thunderbolt and Thunder. Starmie is completely outclassed as a Life Orb attacker by Greninja, who is faster, significantly more powerful, and has U-turn. Starmie can do both roles in one, but it's not as effective as it once was.

 

[Mood4food77]

excadrill cannot beat trevenant nor gourgeist and risks getting burned

mega blastoise on the other hand, does beat every spinblocker

 

[TrippingRocks]

Starmie is mostly outclassed as a spinner by Excadrill, who beats every spinblocker. Starmie cannot get through SpDef Jellicent with the nerf to Thunderbolt and Thunder. Starmie is completely outclassed as a Life Orb attacker by Greninja, who is faster, significantly more powerful, and has U-turn. Starmie can do both roles in one, but it's not as effective as it once was.

Starmie faces heavy competition from Excadrill, but he's hardly outclassed by him. Starmie can deal with Trevenant and Gourgeist better than Excadrill thanks to Ice beam. Blastoise is the best rapid spinner since he beats out every spinblocker, but he uses up the mega-evolution. Of the three rapid spinners, Starmie is not only the fastest, but it also has reliable recovery, allowing for a bulkier Starmie build.

 

[nkhlshnd99]

excadrill cannot beat trevenant nor gourgeist and risks getting burned

mega blastoise on the other hand, does beat every spinblocker

After a +2 excadrill can ohko Trevenant with iron head.