Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Rotosect]

Can we talk a bit about Mega Gyarados again? I see we've brought it up, and I've been using it on a stall team for a few reasons. Nevertheless, Mega Gyarados probably ranks in the top five of most devastating megas to face right now, for a majority of reason.

First off, Gyarados isn't a giveaway of a mega. Sure, the same goes for Tyranitar and to a lesser extent, Garchomp [but really, gar mega isn't even used outside of sand teams], but gyarados can abuse this fact. Secondly, of the megas in OU, Gyarados is one of three to have a type change upon mega evolving and pinsir can't really abuse this outside of avoiding like a conkedurr ice punch on a predicted swords dance.

Both of these lead to Mega Gyarados' most major key: His mega evolution turn. On this turn, Mega Gyarados changes what counters and checks him with ease. Fighting types, previously unable to come in, are now struggling to find a way back in. Rotom, previously the best check, is now getting destroyed by mold breaker earthquake. Landorus-i and Charizard-Y both need to get in, but couldn't reliably stick around due to the flying/water typing taking neutral damage at best. Aegislash and Bisharp no longer can do anything to Gyarados. Multiscale and Thick fat Dragonite/Venusaur (respectively) get destroyed where previously both could try and set up on Gyara.

But this alone, switching all the checks, wouldn't be enough. The addition of Dragon dance makes it so in that turn, all those checks that are supposed to take him in mega, bar Keldeo and maybe Zard-Y (if no rocks) are not getting the chance to check him. In fact, the best option is to force Mega Gyarados to kill your Pokemon so it can't get +1 speed right away. The literal worst case scenerio is your opponent loses a pokemon on your mega evolution. Your opponent CAN'T expect the mega evolution because the flying to dark type changes so many counters, there aren't many pokemon (any that I can think of) that can stay in and beat both.

Then add the bulk. While not as nasty as Ttar (Whose bulk is roughly comparable to registeel, and more so in sand), Mega-Gyarados has ferrothorn levels of bulk. He doesn't suffer from a 4x weakness to keldeo, either. This of course was what I wanted when I used him for stall. What's there to say about the bulk? He survives every form of priority, including Breloom's Tech LO Mach Punch. At +1, he also OHKOs loom... Coupled with that typing switch, it could be said that Gyarados gets dragon dances off easier than any other pokemon in the game. And it would be true.

So what does Gyarados do with these boosts? Well, Ice fang+Earthquake coupled with mold breaker is perfect coverage on the entire game. This isn't TYPE, this is EVERY POKEMON. Outside of Surskit. Water/Bug is the only type to have any resist to both when coupled with mold breaker. Waterfall simply adds a devastating stab for power whenever needed. 30 of 47 pokemon in OU are hit for SE damage. Of the remaining, 3 are fairies, 2 are chansey/blissey (who get murdered by DD anyways) and three are frail psychics who shouldn't hit back well anyways.

Seriously, this guy just isn't getting the light of day from people even though it might be the single most destructive pokemon in the metagame.

You're greatly overestimating Gyarados's offensive options. We're talking about non-STAB Earthquake and Ice Fang, a 65 BP move, which is only marginally better than a neutral STAB Waterfall against something 2x weak to Ice.
You also keep bringing up the "Gyarados's counters shift change when it mega evolves" argument, even though it's still walled by the likes of Skarmory and Ferrothorn (and actually, Ferrothorn has an easier time against M-Gyarados since it's now weak to Grass instead of neutral).
Mold Breaker Ice Fang dealing SE damage to M-Venusaur is cool, until you realize t has more than enough bulk to comfortable take them and M-Gyarados is now weak to grass.

Mega Gyarados is simply getting more attention now but even if it gets upgraded to S-rank it will eventually go back to A+ or even lower, just like Mega Venusaur, Pinsir and Charizard Y did before it.

In fact, I'd like to suggest to stop bringing up and dropping pokemon from the S-rank so often.
Only pokemon that can realistically hold the S-rank position in the long run, such as Aegislash, should be under that rank.

 

[jbtc10]

In fact, I'd like to suggest to stop bringing up and dropping pokemon from the S-rank so often.
Only pokemon that can realistically hold the S-rank position in the long run, such as Aegislash, should be under that rank.

The S-Ranking is indeed starting to lose a bit of its meaning lately. What's funny though is that while Megados should probably remain in A+, it's a lot more threatening than many of the things in S-rank currently. Honestly, even Aegislash isn't that big of a deal compared to Megados, since Megados actually has speed and doesn't turn into paper after it uses an attack. So I dunno if Aegislash is the best example to use there, since the meta has matured to the point where he's not exactly a dominant scary force, unlike certain set-up sweepers like Zard-X and Megados.

 

[Rhaegar]

You're greatly overestimating Gyarados's offensive options. We're talking about non-STAB Earthquake and Ice Fang, a 65 BP move, which is only marginally better than a neutral STAB Waterfall against something 2x weak to Ice.
You also keep bringing up the "Gyarados's counters shift change when it mega evolves" argument, even though it's still walled by the likes of Skarmory and Ferrothorn (and actually, Ferrothorn has an easier time against M-Gyarados since it's now weak to Grass instead of neutral).
Mold Breaker Ice Fang dealing SE damage to M-Venusaur is cool, until you realize t has more than enough bulk to comfortable take them and M-Gyarados is now weak to grass.

Mega Gyarados is simply getting more attention now but even if it gets upgraded to S-rank it will eventually go back to A+ or even lower, just like Mega Venusaur, Pinsir and Charizard Y did before it.

In fact, I'd like to suggest to stop bringing up and dropping pokemon from the S-rank so often.
Only pokemon that can realistically hold the S-rank position in the long run, such as Aegislash, should be under that rank.

Seconded. Gyarados is not as threatening as other DDers at +1. Surely not S rank material.

Alright, decided I'd throw in my two cents (or three in this case).

B+ -> A-/A I honestly can't believe Mega Manectric is in the same rank as Raikou. Sure, it takes up the Mega slot and doesn't have as much special bulk, but Mega Manectric is a fantastic offensive pivot, scout, hole puncher and late-game cleaner. The combination of Intimidate and Volt Switch make it really good at softening up physical attackers, allowing teammates to come in more safely. On top of that, Mega Manectric is really easy to fit on offensive teams and makes for a great Pokémon in VoltTurn cores; I'm bringing special attention to Landorus-T as a VoltTurn buddy due to dual-Intimidate forcing an immense amount of switches and Landorus-T being able to take Ground-type moves aimed at Mega Manectric. Fire-type coverage is what really makes Mega Manectric shine above Raikou, as this allows Mega Manectric to obliterate Steel-types that try to take its Thunderbolts. Furthermore, Mega Manectric is capable of checking a large slew of Pokémon in the higher ranks: Mega Pinsir and Talonflame immediately come to mind and aside from the obvious, Mega Gyarados, for example is OHKOed by Thunderbolt with 2 layers of Spikes. Regular Manectric can even come in on Electric-type moves from the likes of Zapdos and Thundurus, get a Lightning Rod boost, then Mega Evolve to be even more dangerous. Despite all these good things, however, Mega Manectric sometimes finds itself lacking in power and special bulk, but do keep in mind: it's stronger and faster than AV Raikou. All in all, with the massive utility Mega Manectric provides by itself on one teamslot, I definitely feel like it should be in a higher rank than Raikou. Mega Manectric for A-/A Rank.

Been thinking this ever since I saw the ranking but never got about to mentioning it. Insane coverage and has a bigger checklist than any other Pokemon when you look at the S and A ranks.

My post in the HO thread:

Something I feel is overlooked on HO which I've found to be very effective.
Hyper Offense needs a strong check to opposing offensive pokemon that could potentially sweep the lot of fragile pokemon. I find Mega Manectric to check the greatest number of offensive threats to HO aside from being a super fast coverage attacker cum scouter.

Manectric @ Manectite
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Volt Switch
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Flamethrower

Why it is good on HO particularly as a replacement to Thundurus (especially on DeoSharp teams which use Bisharp as the defog punisher):

• Outspeeds every member of the S and A tiers (-Deo-S) along with Intimidate which cripples priority.
• Better counter to the Bird Spammers. Takes less damage from Brave Bird/Quick Attack on account of Intimidate, outspeeds Talonflame's Flare Blitz. Not to mention Volt Switch not only OHKOes but scouts in the event of a switch.
• Better counter to Mega Scizor. Takes less from Bullet Punch and OHKOes rather than Thundurus' 2HKO.
• Outspeeds and OHKOes Greninja.
• Can switch in to DDing Mega Gyarados, Intimidate it, and outspeed it at +1 (assuming Gyarados is Adamant, which it generally is).
• Can be paired with Greninja/Talonflame to provide super speedy hard-hitting VoltTurn. The pairing with Greninja gives insane special coverage that can OHKO almost any offensive Pokemon.
• Unlinke Thundurus, does not carry Life Orb. Life Orb Thundurus tends to dish out a lot of predicted hits, and though this wears down the opponent (apart from those wasted HP Ices), it wears Thundurus down as well. Just a few attacks and it can be KOed by Talonflame's Brave Bird. The Leftovers set doesn't hit hard enough for HO without Nasty Plot, which gets revenge killed by Greninja and Talonflame.

Of course Thundurus deserves it's S tier with unpredictable sets, prankster, and ability to run Superpower and Knock Off, but I personally find Megaman to be a better candidate on HO with it's superior check list.

Mega Manectric for A Rank.

 

[Knight of Cydonia]

In fact, I'd like to suggest to stop bringing up and dropping pokemon from the S-rank so often.

As the metagame adapts and develops pokemons' viabilities are obviously going to change. You can't just rank them, call it a day and expect the metagame to remain stable.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

I personally feel that S Rank would lose meaning with any more additions. If a pokemon is in S-rank, its presence within the OU tier is gigantic factor as to why the meta is in it's current state. For example, Deoxys-D and Landorus-I are staples on Hyper Offense, Best Hazard Setter and Best Stallbreaker respectively. If you're balanced/stall and you have nothing to counter these two then you're gonna get wrecked. Can't take care of Aegislash? Your team is absolute shit. (Sorry for being blunt but it's true). Charizard-X is the premiere physical sweeper (and DDer) of the tier because he's bulky, has great typing, versatile, and gives no fucks about Will-O-Wisp or Scald. Deoxys-S is the best revenge killer bar-none.

And then there is Thundurus, our Lord and Savior. The panic button of all panic buttons.

I believe that the current S-Rank is fine right now. Maybe, Mega Gyarados could join the squad. But A+ Rank is the tier of 2nd bests which I believe is where he belongs (2nd best DDer, tied with T-Tar)...for now at least.

 

[Delibird is Amazing]

I personally feel that S Rank is becoming too crowded. If a pokemon is in S-rank, its presence within the OU tier is gigantic factor as to why the meta is in it's current state. For example, Deoxys-D and Landorus-I are staples on Hyper Offense, Best Hazard Setter and Best Stallbreaker respectively. If you're balanced/stall and you have nothing to counter these two then you're gonna get wrecked. Can't take care of Aegislash? Your team is absolute shit. (Sorry for being blunt but it's true). Charizard-X is the premiere physical sweeper (and DDer) of the tier because he's bulky, has great typing, versatile, and gives no fucks about Will-O-Wisp or Scald. Deoxys-S is the best revenge killer bar-none.

And then there is Thundurus, our Lord and Savior. The panic button of all panic buttons.

I believe that the current S-Rank is fine right now. Maybe, Mega Gyarados could join the squad. But A+ Rank is the tier of 2nd bests which I believe is where he belongs (2nd best DDer, tied with T-Tar)...for now at least.

What's the point you are trying to make here? S rank is too crowded but everything in s rank deserves their rank?

 

[Aragorn the King]

What's the point you are trying to make here? S rank is too crowded but everything in s rank deserves their rank?

I think he's saying it would become too crowded if more of the Pokemon some people nominated for S actually join, like Gyarados-M, Keldeo, Bisharp, and Charizard-Y.

 

[Sucker Lunch]

What's the point you are trying to make here? S rank is too crowded but everything in s rank deserves their rank?

Sorry, typed that up while I was working. What I'm saying is that S-Rank is fine as it is now and we should be wary of trying to add more mons to s-rank.

 

[Rhaegar]

I feel that Deoxys-S doesn't belong in S. It's outclassed by Deoxys-D as a hazard setter and Espeon as a dual screener. Though the revenge kill set is great, it's not very effective outside revenge killing since it's easily switched in to and can be OHKOed or 2PriorityHKO by anything that can take a hit. Put a scarf on Terrakion, Lando-T, Excadril, Infernape, Keldeo, Cube or even any of the little 100 stat legends and they can revenge kill effectively as well. Aegislash, the current most used Pokemon on the upper ladder, is an easy switch-in-OHKO to Deo-S even considering the occasional Knock Off which at non-stab non-invested hardly hurts. M-Scizor doesn't have a problem coming in and setting up on it either. Mega-Mawile can switch in after Deo-S kills it's teammate and proceed to set up. Not to mention a variety of sweepers such as Charizard-X can come in and setup after a Psycho Boost is extinguished on a teammate.
I have personally found Deoxys-S much less of a problem to face than most of the Pokemon in the A+ tier and actually less of a problem than Mega Manectric which is sadly B+. I do not believe that a Pokemon whose main efficacy lies solely in revenge killing and which becomes setup fodder after using it's strongest move should be placed in S.

Deoxys-S for A+/A


Edit: Revenge killing the threats from S and A+ tiers, not going to copy paste in certain places for brevity's sake. The results assume Life Orb with Max SpA when using a special attack and 100 Attack when using a physical attack.

Mega Tyranitar: OHKO Superpower. Check.

Charizard X: Modest Psycho Boost OHKO, 50% chance to OHKO with a Timid Psycho Boost. Check.

Mega-Gyarados: 100 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 221-263 (66.5 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 268-316 (111.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Not a reliable revenge kill.

Azumarill: +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 348-409 (114.4 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Not a possible revenge kill.

Bisharp: Sucker Punch. Not a possible revenge kill.

Mega Pinsir: +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 211-250 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 237-279 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
100% OHKO with Stealth Rock damage. Unlikely.

Mega Mawile: Same as Bisharp.

Mega Scizor: +2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 262-309 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. To those who waste a slot on HP Fire.

 

[Vert]

I feel that Deoxys-S doesn't belong in S. It's outclassed by Deoxys-D as a hazard setter and Espeon as a dual screener. Though the revenge kill set is great, it's not very effective outside revenge killing since it's easily switched in to and can be OHKOed or Priority-2HKO by anything that can take a hit. Put a scarf on Terrakion, Lando-T, Excadril, Infernape, Keldeo, Cube or even any of the little 100 stat legends and they can revenge kill effectively as well. Aegislash, the current most used Pokemon on the upper ladder, is an easy switch-in-OHKO to Deo-S even considering the occasional Knock Off which at non-stab non-invested hardly hurts. M-Scizor doesn't have a problem coming in and setting up on it either. Mega-Mawile can switch in after Deo-S kills it's teammate and proceed to set up. Not to mention a variety of sweepers such as Charizard-X can come in and setup after a Psycho Boost is extinguished on a teammate.
I have personally found Deoxys-S much less of a problem to face than most of the Pokemon in the A+ tier and actually less of a problem than Mega Manectric which is sadly B+. I do not believe that a Pokemon whose main efficacy lies solely in revenge killing and which becomes setup fodder after using it's strongest move should be placed in S.

Deoxys-S for A+/A


Edit: Revenge killing the threats from S and A+ tiers, not going to copy paste in certain places for brevity's sake. The results assume Life Orb with Max SpA when using a special attack and 100 Attack when using a physical attack.

Mega Tyranitar: OHKO Superpower. Check.

Charizard X: Modest Psycho Boost OHKO, 50% chance to OHKO with a Timid Psycho Boost. Check.

Mega-Gyarados: 100 Atk Life Orb Deoxys-S Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Gyarados: 221-263 (66.5 - 79.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Mold Breaker Mega Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 268-316 (111.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Not a reliable revenge kill.

Azumarill: +6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 348-409 (114.4 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO.
Not a possible revenge kill.

Bisharp: Sucker Punch. Not a possible revenge kill.

Mega Pinsir: +2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 211-250 (87.5 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Deoxys-S: 237-279 (98.3 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
100% OHKO with Stealth Rock damage. Unlikely.

Mega Mawile: Same as Bisharp.

Mega Scizor: +2 252+ Atk Technician Mega Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Deoxys-S: 262-309 (108.7 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO. To those who waste a slot on HP Fire.

I disagree with this completely.

Deoxys-S is one of the most threatening 'mons in OU. Anyone who wants it to drop to A Rank (that's ridiculous) has no clue what they are talking about. The threats you listed on your post have nothing to do with its revenge-killing capabilities. All the things you listed can beat it, but you are only listing the things that beat it which bugs me. Mega Charizard X is one of the most threatening sweepers and very few things can revenge kill it. That's huge and Mega Tyranitar is very threatening atm as well and Deoxys-S beats it. Most HO teams have somethings to tank a +2 Sucker Punch and Bullet Punch and retaliate back, so I don't know how Deoxys-S not being able to revenge kill them is a problem, since Deoxys-S is mainly used on HO along with Deoxys-D, so that's not an argument.

Deoxys-S also removes fast powerhouses that most teams struggle to check like Keldeo, Garchomp, and Greninja. It defeats the VenuTran core easily on stall teams providing great wallbreaking utility. It's a revenge killer that can switch moves, so it won't be set up bait. Also, no one uses Choice Scarf Keldeo (lol Infernape pls don't use that as an argument). Terrakion's, Excadrill's, and Landorus-T's STABs are all set-up bait and they really don't have the utility Deoxys-S. Deoxys-S can also revenge kill and set up Stealth Rock / Spikes making team building easier.

The Dual Screens set is not bad. It is great on Offensive teams. Dual Screens Deoxys-S + 5 set-up sweepers is actually a playstyle that you see on the ladder and its really effective. Deoxys-S is versatile. The Rain Dance set is amazing. It sets up Stealth Rock, uses Rain Dance, then dies. If it is still alive, you can use it later for more rain. If it dies, then Kabutops can set up and destroy the opponent's team or do massive damage for Kingdra / Tornadus-T to clean. It's a very powerful playstyle and Deoxys-S makes it so strong. The hazards set is gaining more popularity because people are running offensive variants of it. It sets as many hazards then lures in things like Mega Charizard X thinking it just wants to die, so the foe uses it as set up bait. Then bam, a 2HKO with Psyscho Boost / whatever you want to kill is initiated with Focus Sash. 1% health Deoxys-S has merits to for revenge killing Garchomp and/or Landorus-I later on with Ice Beam.

Deoxys-S is an amazing Pokemon to use in OU. It's unpredictable, provides many roles, and on top of that, brings in needed utility in one package many play styles lack.

 

[Flamebot]

My meta Knowledge isn't that great, I'm only in my 1500's but I believe that Dragonite should be A+ rank. It's weakness Policy set is so dangerous(Tho not impossible to play around) and can destroy teams by its self. Not to mention if you forgo Extreme speed for roost you can bring multistage back up and that would allow you to get another Dragon dance.
I don't know the difference between A and A+ but I think it's just as good as Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar as a Dragon dancer.

Please do not bash this post, I'm just stating my opion I'm not trying to start anything.

 

[skies]

My meta Knowledge isn't that great, I'm only in my 1500's but I believe that Dragonite should be A+ rank. It's weakness Policy set is so dangerous(Tho not impossible to play around) and can destroy teams by its self. Not to mention if you forgo Extreme speed for roost you can bring multistage back up and that would allow you to get another Dragon dance.
I don't know the difference between A and A+ but I think it's just as good as Mega Gyarados and Mega Tyranitar as a Dragon dancer.

Please do not bash this post, I'm just stating my opion I'm not trying to start anything.

Except that Dragonite is just far worse as you get up the ladder, Air Ballon Aegislash, Mega Charizard X, Deoxys-S, Thundurus (Thunder Wave), Azumarill, Garchomp, Greninja, amongst so many other things can beat it, and if you let it set up then you're not playing correctly. Weakness Policy Dragonite is so overrated, honestly Lum Berry + DD is far superior in pretty much every way. Dragonite is good, but I don't see it being very effective past 1600 where players are much more used to it and easier to beat, A Rank is fine in my opinions.

 

[V_Cliff]

I feel that Deoxys-S doesn't belong in S

I disagree with Deoxys-S for a anything lower than S.Correct,it faces strong competition as harzard setter and dual screener in form of Deo-D and Espeon who are generally better in these Roles.However as you already mentioned,the revenge killer set is really great at the moment and for me personally the most effective set right now.With its godly speed Tier and Hyper Offense getting more common,Deo-S shines at revenging some of the most dangerous offensive Threats in the Tier
(Landorus-I,ThundurusI,Greninja,CharX to name a few).And after it has done its work the opponent will certainly take advantage of the free switch in.But this applies virtually to any revenge killer.Choice Band Talonflame gives TTar or Heatran a free turn of setup/free stealth Rock after it killed something.Same for scarf Excadrill ,Landorus-T and Garchomp.And Deoxys-S has an advantage here:It doesnt need a Choice Item to revenge kill stuff.Due its very high speed stat it can run Life Orb without worries, can act as revenge killer and late game cleaner thanks to its ability to switch moves and to access to nearly every single respectable attcking move in the Game.Deoxys-S can adapt to you needs:Chansey annoys you way to much? Knock off if it dares to switch in.Need a solid way to revenge Kill Char Y and Volcarona?Use Rock slide.Manual Rain dance Setter?No Problem.You can do literally anything with this mon, there are so many viable options for multiple existing sets ,even if you identify Deoxys role in the opposing team,you can only guess what moves it may run.
The Point is Deoxys can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost,can easily perform multiple roles effectively,and is extremly versailte and unpredicable thanks to its huge movepool,thus warrants the S-Rank for me.

(I am a bit disappointed by you one dimensional Calculations,you havent metioned a bunch of regular S and A mons who are easily picked off by Deo-S.Like:Greninja,Landorus,Thundurus,Garchomp,Excadrill,Keledo,Mega Veusaur.Thats pretty good considering that this are are only A+ and S mons)

Dragonite is fine at a.WP sets are dangerous,but they relies on an intact Multiscale.Without a boosting item Dnite is pretty weak and struggles to get past some common defensive threats.CB is the best set for me personally,but it requires really good predictions.

 

[Flamebot]

Except that Dragonite is just far worse as you get up the ladder, Air Ballon Aegislash, Mega Charizard X, Deoxys-S, Thundurus (Thunder Wave), Azumarill, Garchomp, Greninja, amongst so many other things can beat it, and if you let it set up then you're not playing correctly. Weakness Policy Dragonite is so overrated, honestly Lum Berry + DD is far superior in pretty much every way. Dragonite is good, but I don't see it being very effective past 1600 where players are much more used to it and easier to beat, A Rank is fine in my opinions.

I appreciate your post I just hqve a question, how does Mega Charizard X beat it?
And you could say that if you let it set up that your not playing very good about any Set up sweeper.

 

[skies]

I appreciate your post I just hqve a question, how dies Mega Charizard X beat it?

Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X boosts alongside it and if it has already boosted:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 297-351 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Then the bulkier ones as well can just Will-o-Wisp it, therefore crippling it. It's a pretty even matchup, but it all depends on the situation.

 

[Flamebot]

Dragon Dance Mega Charizard X boosts alongside it and if it has already boosted:
+1 252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 297-351 (91.6 - 108.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Then the bulkier ones as well can just Will-o-Wisp it, therefore crippling it. It's a pretty even matchup, but it all depends on the situation.

I disagree with your earlier post, you said if.you let it set up you were not playing good, so you could say he same thing about charizard X. Plus Dragonite can set up just as well as something like Mega Tyranitar, so idk. Hut that's all I disagree with.

 

[skies]

I disagree with your earlier post, you said if.you let it set up you were not playing good, so you could say he same thing about charizard X. Plus Dragonite can set up just as well as something like Mega Tyranitar, so idk. Hut that's all I disagree with.

No, I mistyped, I meant activating Weakness Policy on the same turn it Dragon Dances, only an idiot would do that. Another factor of Mega Charizard X is that you could send in Chansey to take on M-Zard Y but it's M-Zard X, so there's that. And Mega Tyranitar is nowhere near as comparable to Dragonite simply because a.) It doesn't have to be mega and b.) It can play a multitude of roles. It may Dragon Dance as well as them, but Dragonite is very easy to predict.

 

[blaargathon]

If your opponent keeps switching out after a leech seed either use seed again or predict what they're switching into and hammer it. That's not a flaw in Chesnaught it's a flaw in gameplay.

Ah, here we are. The oldest defensive argument in the book. "You don't like a certain Pokemon so you obviously aren't using it right!" Your argument literally makes no sense. This happens ALL THE TIME and not just to me, and if you need proof, watch WiFi battles. I've been using Chesnaught quite a lot lately and it does do work but it isn't nearly as impressive as people say it is. In fact, it isn't even a perfect counter to Aegislash. Flash Cannon exists, people, and yes it is used.

No Stealth Rocks or Thunder Wave make it less annoying than Ferrothorn, and Skarmory's amazing typing + base 140 Defense, as well as Stealth Rock and Spikes should speak for itself. Even Foretress can be used over it as it has Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and only one weakness. Defend him all you want, but Chesnaught is being hilariously overestimated, partially due to the fact that it's a starter Pokemon. The thing is NOT threatening in the slightest and doesn't belong in a tier where everyone and their mother are using Talonflame and Charizard. Period.

Also, Mega Charizard Y in A+ Rank? I think not. There isn't a better wall-breaker in OU. It is literally only weak against Rock and Electric (Water shouldn't even be counted as Charizard Y's impressive special bulk + sun basically makes Water-type attacks about as strong as a neutral hit). Stealth Rock is always a pain but with Wish support or even Roost it can get its health back. Plus, Defog's buff makes it easier to remove hazards, as nothing can block it, so rocks aren't even a big deal if you pair it with Latios.

Subject 18 Edit: Please multi-quote and avoid double posting. Thanks

 

[theV8man]

Also, Mega Charizard Y in A+ Rank? I think not. There isn't a better wall-breaker in OU. It is literally only weak against Rock and Electric (Water shouldn't even be counted as Charizard Y's impressive special bulk + sun basically makes Water-type attacks about as strong as a neutral hit). Stealth Rock is always a pain but with Wish support or even Roost it can get its health back. Plus, Defog's buff makes it easier to remove hazards, as nothing can block it, so rocks aren't even a big deal if you pair it with Latios.

It's a great Pokemon, but it does have its share of flaws. First of all, its type weaknesses are pretty irrelevant considering that pretty much any strong-ish physical hit will bring it down. Second, it has trouble breaking past Chansey, which is the most used special wall in the game. Third there are several pokemon out there, including lati@s, dragonite, goodra, that can switch in to practically any move and threaten back. Finally, because it can't really afford to run substitute or has priority, it gets revenge killed SUPER easily.

Overall, I don't see Charizard Y as a meta-game defining pokemon. In my experience, as I've climbed the ladder I've seen it less and less and practically any team I've made can deal with it easily, unlike other pokemon in S rank such as Thundurus. If anyone wants to argue otherwise, please don't say its "unpredictability as a mega" gives it a free pass to S rank.

 

[epicdrill]

Also, Mega Charizard Y in A+ Rank? I think not. There isn't a better wall-breaker in OU. It is literally only weak against Rock and Electric (Water shouldn't even be counted as Charizard Y's impressive special bulk + sun basically makes Water-type attacks about as strong as a neutral hit). Stealth Rock is always a pain but with Wish support or even Roost it can get its health back. Plus, Defog's buff makes it easier to remove hazards, as nothing can block it, so rocks aren't even a big deal if you pair it with Latios.

Let's quote the updade:

S ---------> Down to A+ Rank: I'm preparing myself for a lot of complaints after this drop. However, I am definitely not alone in this decision. A huge portion of both the VR AND regular ranking thread community made solid arguments for dropping Zard-Y to A+. Here are two of the best posts I saw for dropping it, but again there were many others too so don't think I'm leaving you out. In my opinion, these posts hit the nail on the head. Zard-Y in general is no longer as threatening as it used to be a few months ago because of how many Pokemon can check it so easily. Yes it's still very difficult to switch into, but a huge portion of Pokemon found on offense can deal with it rather easily, as well as stall because Chansey is fat as fuck. The physical Zard-Y with Flare Blitz is not very good despite how many arguments I saw vouching for its effectiveness. It needs a significant amount of Attack investment to 2HKO standard Chansey with Flare Blitz, and Zard-Y basically suicides itself if it somehow manages to beat Chansey anyway. Anyways, onto the biggest issue with dropping Zard-Y, which is unpredictability. Again, this post explains explains exactly why this argument isn't a very good one as long as Megas are ranked seperately (which isn't changing anytime soon because most of the people running the ranking thread with me dislike the idea of ranking them together). Anyways, most "good" Zard-Y teams are very similar to each other, as they almost always have some kind of Pursuit trapper, something to check Thundurus, a defogger, and then Keldeo or Manaphy because Zard-Y breaks many of their counters. Besides, Zard-Y isn't the Pokemon you have to worry about the most out of the two if you predict wrong. If you predict wrong with Zard-Y, the worst that can happen is that something is going to potentially die or have to eat up a Fire Blast. If you predict wrong with Zard-X however, it can set up a Dragon Dance and potentially wreck your ENTIRE team.

All in all, Zard-Y is still a huge threat no doubt, but it's no where near as threatening as Zard-X, and because of that it shouldn't be ranked in the same place. Megas are ranked separately, thus they must be treated as a single entity, not two things. Charizard itself is unpredictable, not Zard-Y. To best honest, Zard-X on its OWN is unpredictable, because between bulky DD, offensive DD with EQ, Outrage, or specially defensive Zard with Wisp, it's very unreliable to check and counter. So yeah, unpredictability is not a good argument in keeping Zard-Y S-rank, because on its own, it's not even comparable to how good Zard-X is.

Also, I have never built a team with a Zard Y weakness, despite both being a terrible teambuilder and not considering it during the building process.

 

[procrastinat]

Deoxys-S Shouldn't move down from S rank because it can perform multiple roles that, although they each have competition, no pokemon outclasses any one of those roles completely. Hazard stacker is arguably done better by Deo-D, but defense form doesn't have the offensive presence. As far as i know on it's lead sets, SR/Taunt/Magic Coat are all mandatory and the last spot is best used with spikes, but can be replaced with an offensive move like superpower to surprise unwary threats. But Deoxys-S can easily run SR and 3 attacks, allowing it to not just force you to start the match 5-6, but can take something with it instead. It also has a faster taunt than Deo-D, which while mostly moot because most Deo-D use magic coat against faster taunts, it allows it to beat some Faster, more uncommon leads.

I saw a dual screener mentioned,, and while espeon is very good, espeon doesn't have access to taunt (to prevent set-up) or the mile wide movepool of Deoxys-S.
Espeon again doesn't put nearly as much offensive pressure on the opponent, and if you really want to go suicide lead, Deo-S has access to hazards.

Finally the revenge killer set. This set also faces stiff competition in the form of talonflame. Tal Has access to priority brave bird, allowing it to pick off a threat no matter how many speed boosts it has. However Talonflame has it's fair share of flaws, the four biggest are it's reliance on the flying type, reliance on recoil moves, it's low attack stat which forces it run a choice band, and it's weakness to stealth rock. Talonflame relies way to much on it's flying stab, leaving it unable to revenge everything, the largest one i can think of being MegaTar, which simply gives 0 shits about the angry bird. Talonflame's recoil moves allow it to only get in a few hits before it dies, and this further compounded by it's huge weakness to stealth rock, and it's reliance on choice band to make it strong enough to to KO also makes it easier to play around and forces it to switch more often, REQUIRING reliable defog support.

On the other hand, Deo-S requires very little support, has a much larger movepool, and is able to switch moves. It doesn't require defog support, and can revenge kill threats that Talonflame can't with it's flying stab. While it's not saying much, Deoxys is bulkier than talonflame, and can use many different types of attacks, including superpower which allows it to revenge or at least heavily damage MegaTar.

To sum up, while Deoxys-S has competition in every single one of it's roles, none of those roles are outclassed and each of them add to the versatility and unpredictability of Deoxys-S.

Deoxys-S should remain in S rank.

 

[chive]

I second Clefable going to A+ rank. Depending on how you look at it, it's either a setup sweeper with ridicolous bulk or a wall with tremendous offensive presence. It has great defensive typing, an incredible movepool and access to not one, but two really good abilities. I find myself using it increasingly often, because while it is of course not as powerful as other setup sweepers ((M)TTar, (M)Gyara or MZardX), it can cause a TON of problems if it gets just one CM boost in. It's just so versatile and requires little to no support. You can fit it on most teams and get a status absorber/emergency stop to many setup sweepers (depending on the ability chosen) that can take a lot of attacks while also being able to actually serve as a backup win condition. IMO, it's one of the best "allrounders" in the tier.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Digging up two Pokémon someone's previously mentioned and backing these up.

B- -> B This honestly doesn't need too much explanation, but Il'l be explaining anyway. Staraptor may suffer from being really frail and is worn down heavily by recoil and SR, but it's easily the best physical Flying-type wallbreaker in the entire tier. STAB Reckless Brave Bird does insane damage against even some resisting Pokémon and if there's any Electric-types in the way, those are usually smothered by an equally brutal Double-Edge. On top of that, Staraptor has Close Combat to deal with baddies like Tyranitar, Mega Tyranitar, Heatran...generally most things resisting its immense STABs. It can even be used on VoltTurn cores with U-turn to keep up momentum. Its 100 Speed can sometimes let it down, but Staraptor's wallbreaking potential is only augmented when it goes Birdspamming with its pal Talonflame, who cleans up any faster sweepers to allow Staraptor to seriously wreck some shit.
This thing is the very epitome of physical wallbreaking. Staraptor for B.

B- -> B Again, not a terrible lot of explanation needed, but I want to emphasize. The Sand nerf and the rise in some special powerful attackers (Greninja being a major culprit to its problem) in tie with its terrible Special Defense and Speed cause this big lug some problems, but Rhyperior absolutely has some use in OU. It's able to check some major sweepers in the tier - Talonflame, Mega Pinsir and Mega Tyranitar coming to mind - while being able to set up Rocks using its base 115 HP and 130 Defense to keep physical threats of all sorts in check. It can even go the Assault Vest route, which, when combined with Sand, gives it great bulk on both sides. While it still has its obvious downfalls, Rhyperior is definitely usable in OU and is therefore deserving of a better ranking. Rhyperior for B.

 

[Halcyon.]

I think it's about time we lowered Rotom-W.

It's funny how the Pokemon people were calling the best mon in the tier when XY first started has fallen so far in the last few months. Rotom-W still has some utility as a pivot that can handle Pinsir and Talonflame, but on the whole it's really not even close to as good as it used to be. The entire meta is way too strong for it right now. Between Greninja, Talonflame, Mega Pinsir, Azumarill, Garchomp, and a bunch of other Pokemon it's supposed to check, Rotom-W gets overwhelmed quickly and usually dies without accomplishing much. Add on to that the fact that checks to it like Ferrothorn, Bulky Zard X, and Breloom are on the rise and I just don't see any reason for it to be in A rank anymore. It has unreliable recovery, it's a defensive water without Scald, it gets overwhelmed too easily, and it believe it belongs in B+ or A- at the absolute highest.

 

[Rosen]

Move down rotom move up amph