Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[Ninja Charizard]

Can we drop the Mega-Man discussion for now and let whoever ranks this thing decide. Both sides have presented their arguments at least five times each and you're just talking in circles at this point.

Or even better, can anyone post some actual replays. Every time someone mentions things like calcs or megaman switching in attacks I feel like crying. Seriously, it's hard to believe half the people here have never played against a good Manectric team, but since that seems to be the case, someone bring replays please.

(Sorry for insisting on this discussion, but it baffles me that no replay has been posted yet).

 

[Karxrida]

Or even better, can anyone post some actual replays. Every time someone mentions things like calcs or megaman switching in attacks I feel like crying. Seriously, it's hard to believe half the people here have never played against a good Manectric team, but since that seems to be the case, someone bring replays please.

(Sorry for insisting on this discussion, but it baffles me that no replay has been posted yet).

I have some with Mega Man in them, I just need to go through them. I'm on my phone and it's 5:30 in the morning here so be patient.

 

[Karxrida]

Subject 18 Edit: Removed quote post that is now irrelevant.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95469789
Replay at the +1500 mark. Not only does the Lando-Mega Man core have little to switch into on the Special Spectrum, they both give Bisharp Defiant boners to fuck you (not in this replay, mind you, but that's something to consider). I'm still going through my other replays to find stuff that I can post.

 

[skies]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95469789
Replay at the +1500 mark. Not only does the Lando-Mega Man core have little to switch into on the Special Spectrum, they both give Bisharp Defiant boners to fuck you (not in this replay, mind you, but that's something to consider). I'm still going through my other replays to find stuff that I can post.

So if I'm understanding the definition of "offensive pivot" it's this:

offensive pivot: (n) - a useless, made up role because it cannot switch in on things defensively so it must wait until something else has died in order to come in and do anything. Can be performed by essentially anything with U-turn.

This is NOT what Mega Manectric should be doing (or anything for that matter since you have to kill something off to do it lol .-.), instead, Mega Manectric is a revenge killer, cleaner, and Thundurus/Flying check for offensive teams. Does it do that well? Yes I believe it does that job excellently. But please don't make up roles for Mega Manectric just because it's not a great pivot. Admit that it can't do that and move on to focus on what it CAN do, because it's actually a good Pokemon. It can come in the late-game and clean up, it can revenge kill certain Pokemon, or it can check Thundurus. There is no such thing as an offensive pivot (the only thing I can think of is Genesect, but Mega Manectric is nothing like Genesect so please don't make that comparison). You're either a pivot or not. You can either switch into things or you can't.

EDIT: I talked to Gary2346 about this before and we both agreed B+ is perfect for Mega Manectric. It just doesn't fit with the Pokemon of A- or B.

Yeah, it's decided it is at B+, this argument is moot. Anyways, I agree Sharpedo is more fit for C- / D Rank :/

Anyways, a Pokemon I'd like to see ranked is Cobalion. Cobalion might not be the first thing that pops to your mind when teambuilding, and it often doesn't. Cobalion perfectly counters Bisharp, one of the largest threats in the Metagame, even at +2, and gets a free +1 from Bisharp's Dark-type attacks. Cobalion can run a few sets, such sets include Swords Dance, Utility Pivot, and Calm Mind. Swords Dance is a really cool set, as Close Combat is really strong. It may appear to be outclassed by Terrakion, but Cobalion is much more bulky and has many more resistances, while lacking the sheer coverage of Terrakion. Bulky Pivot is another very interesting set. Cobalion has access to Stealth Rock, Taunt, Volt Switch, and Thunder Wave to make for a very cool Pokemon. It can also be a bit more offensive, by running Volt Switch / Stealth Rock / Close Combat / Hidden Power [Ice] or Taunt to get nice coverage and support the team. Then you've got Calm Mind. Calm Mind bolsters Cobalion's Special Attack and mediocre Special bulk, it also gets well ummm... Focus Blast, Flash Cannon, and Hidden Power. The main draw of Calm Mind is to make Cobalion very bulky on either side. Let's also not forget it's as fast as Keldeo and Terrakion, and has a higher Defense than Skarmory when uninvested:
0 Atk Mew Fire Fang vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Skarmory: 70-84 (25.8 - 30.9%) -- 7.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Mew Fire Fang vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 76-90 (23.4 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Cobalion is truly an unsung sword and it deserves C / C- Rank in my opinion. The problem with it is that it is outclassed by a lot of things such as Terrakion, Keldeo, and M-Zard X (as a setup sweeper). It itself does have a niche of these pivot moves and Taunt, but it just isn't amazing with its super common weaknesses. Also, fun fact: it's the only musketeer with 100% chance to survive a CB Talonflame's Brave Bird, that's pretty cool I guess. Of course it dies next turn thanks to Flare Blitz anyways ;].

 

[acestriker19]

Oh I'll bring this up Entei for B rank. Entei is a fantastic wallbreaker with sacred fires power with a choice band and the crippling burn is able to deter most any defensive or offensive switch-ins. With rotom-w falling in usage it's most common counter is less common.

Entei is notable for being able to switch in easily on many of the walls it wants to break such as Sylveon, Clefable, Venusaur, Ferrothorn and Chestnaught thanks to its great bulk and decent mono fire typing.

Entei also makes a good revenge killer with banded Extremespeed. Entei nice base 100 speed is a very good speed tier for adamant wallbreakers as it outspeeds most notable defensive threats. Even solid answers like Slowbro and Quagsire don't want to be worn down with burn. Overall Entei is IMO a very underrated wallbreaker that is very hard to switch into and is easy to switch into most walls it wants to break which makes worthy of B rank

I'm gonna bring this back.

Btw Entei is C+ on the VR rankings which is crap entei has only gotten better. Good stall teams are dropping Heatran which is fantastic for Entei. Bulky Zard X can be a problem but Entei can smash it on a switch with a stone edge. Extremespeed allows Entei to hold its weight against HO teams and is only 5 BP below D-nites banded Extremespeed. Overall the meta has shifted so that Entei is better against stall better against balance and Extremespeed makes it useful even against HO and a good revenge killer.

Edit: oh I also support Chesnaught nomination of cobalion I've used it and a pivot that's able to take on bisharp and draw in grounds to smash with HP ice is good enough for C/C-

 

[the-bumper-car]

You don't have to be an asshole about it. Also, until a mod says otherwise, we can talk about whatever Mon we want, so stop mini-modding.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-95469789
Replay at the +1500 mark. Not only does the Lando-Mega Man core have little to switch into on the Special Spectrum, they both give Bisharp Defiant boners to fuck you (not in this replay, mind you, but that's something to consider). I'm still going through my other replays to find stuff that I can post.

Your replay has actually managed to make me change my mind. I'm amending my previous statement - there is one good offensive pivot left in OU.

It's Lando-I.

Man, I forgot Lando-I can do U-turn shenanigans as well. It's been so associated with Calm Mind in my head I didn't realize it fits the exact role all the MegaMan supporters WISH it could do. Switch in with resistances/immunities? Check. Diverse movepool? Check. Multiple viable sets, which can leave opponents guessing and punish them when they make that mistake? Check. The only drawback to running Lando-I is... you can't run the far shittier Lando-T! That is not a drawback, IMHO.

(Also what is up with people using terrible pokemon as pivots.)

Also is Volcarona really just a B- pokemon? I mean the joke in Gen V was its main counter is Stealth Rock, and its far easier to get rid of hazards now. What's keeping the Fire Bug down?

 

[Karxrida]

Yeah, it's decided it is at B+, this argument is moot. Anyways, I agree Sharpedo is more fit for C- / D Rank :/

Until alexwolf or gary say otherwise, we can talk about whatever mon we want, so stop minimodding.

Your replay has actually managed to make me change my mind. I'm amending my previous statement - there is one good offensive pivot left in OU.

It's Lando-I.

Man, I forgot Lando-I can do U-turn shenanigans as well. It's been so associated with Calm Mind in my head I didn't realize it fits the exact role all the MegaMan supporters WISH it could do. Switch in with resistances/immunities? Check. Diverse movepool? Check. Multiple viable sets, which can leave opponents guessing and punish them when they make that mistake? Check. The only drawback to running Lando-I is... you can't run the far shittier Lando-T! That is not a drawback, IMHO.

(Also what is up with people using terrible pokemon as pivots.)

Also is Volcarona really just a B- pokemon? I mean the joke in Gen V was its main counter is Stealth Rock, and its far easier to get rid of hazards now. What's keeping the Fire Bug down?

FlySpam screws over Volcarona really hard, especially since Flame Body can't burn Talonflame.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-104790761

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-112604442

Two more replays for you of Mega Man in action. The second one's at 1650ish.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Your replay has actually managed to make me change my mind. I'm amending my previous statement - there is one good offensive pivot left in OU.

It's Lando-I.

Man, I forgot Lando-I can do U-turn shenanigans as well. It's been so associated with Calm Mind in my head I didn't realize it fits the exact role all the MegaMan supporters WISH it could do. Switch in with resistances/immunities? Check. Diverse movepool? Check. Multiple viable sets, which can leave opponents guessing and punish them when they make that mistake? Check. The only drawback to running Lando-I is... you can't run the far shittier Lando-T! That is not a drawback, IMHO.

(Also what is up with people using terrible pokemon as pivots.)

Also is Volcarona really just a B- pokemon? I mean the joke in Gen V was its main counter is Stealth Rock, and its far easier to get rid of hazards now. What's keeping the Fire Bug down?

The rise in viability of Azumarill, as well as powerful Flying-type such as Talonflame make it hard for Volcarona to sweep. The Sun nerf also hurt it a ton - no more Sun boosted Fire Blasts to throw around sucks :(

 

[Subject 18]

Okay. That went on for far too long. Discussion on Mega Manectric ends now. Because of the lack off good points from either side it will probably stay in B+. It just doesn't really fit in with the Pokemon in A- and it's much better than the ones in B. Mega Manectric is a not a pivot switch it's a revenge killer/cleaner. Like Halcyon. mentioned people don't have a grasp as to what a Pivot actually is and from the discussions people are saying it comes in after something dies and grabs momentum. That is not a pivot. This role of "offensive pivot" does not exist. Why was this a made up and used as a relevant point of arguement? Rotom-W and Landorus-T are pivots, you can send them out to sponge a hit and VoltTurn out. Mega Manectric can't really do that it can come on something to revenge kill THEN grab momentum but switch directly into an attack. How can you be a pivot if you can't fulfill a necessary component of the definition which is be able to on an attack?

Move on from Mega Manectric its been discussed for far too long.

 

[the-bumper-car]

The rise in viability of Azumarill, as well as powerful Flying-type such as Talonflame make it hard for Volcarona to sweep. The Sun nerf also hurt it a ton - no more Sun boosted Fire Blasts to throw around sucks :(

Hmm, I never realized how dependent Volc was on weather until now, but then I remembered its sets were either Sun-abusers or Hurricane-based (or both) so yeah, that plus this being the Flying generation seems pretty justified. Unless we suddenly need Volc to save us from the new Legendaries (which I personally doubt - all of them have a Super-Effective typing against Volc), I think it'll stay at its current ranking for a while.

 

[s_aman]

Since the MegaMadnesstric has ended, i am quoting what i posted a few pages back regarding Alakazam.

I am nominating Alakazam for C rank.
Its job is revengekilling. But, due to the bulky nature of the metagame, it faces difficulty in revenging set up sweepers like Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard-X at 1. Its speed stat is not what it used to be with Greninja, MegaMan, Talonflame (although, this one doesn't matter), Deo-S running rampant and priorioty Thunder Wave as well as priority attacks everywhere. Also, as a revenge killer it is almost completely eclipsed by LO Deo-S due to its better coverage, stronger attacks and the ability to use physical attacks.

Also, why is Scizor in A- rank when it is completely outclassed by Mega Scizor, except for choice band?

 

[Rhaegar]

Also, why is Scizor in A- rank when it is completely outclassed by Mega Scizor, except for choice band?

Because CB Scizor is played in a completely different way from M-Scizor. Where M-Scizor uses SD-Roost spam to set up or plays a Defog-KnockOff utility role, CB Scizor is better at revenge kills and threatening pokemon such as Latios which can't switch out without the switch-in getting hit by the most powerful U-Turn in the game. I think it's fine at A-.

 

[Ninja Charizard]

Your replay has actually managed to make me change my mind. I'm amending my previous statement - there is one good offensive pivot left in OU.

It's Lando-I.

Man, I forgot Lando-I can do U-turn shenanigans as well. It's been so associated with Calm Mind in my head I didn't realize it fits the exact role all the MegaMan supporters WISH it could do. Switch in with resistances/immunities? Check. Diverse movepool? Check. Multiple viable sets, which can leave opponents guessing and punish them when they make that mistake? Check. The only drawback to running Lando-I is... you can't run the far shittier Lando-T! That is not a drawback, IMHO.

(Also what is up with people using terrible pokemon as pivots.)

Also is Volcarona really just a B- pokemon? I mean the joke in Gen V was its main counter is Stealth Rock, and its far easier to get rid of hazards now. What's keeping the Fire Bug down?

You know I try to respect your posts, but then you come and say stuff like Lando-T being shitty. Just... no.

 

[Ender Wiggin]

For me, Mega manectric is more a revenge killer and a special attacker ore than a pivot. It can do the role of pivot but I don't think it's the man purpose while using this pokemon.

About other suggestions,

Amoonguss up from B-: No because it doesn't fit well in a variety of teams.

About other pokemon:
Suggesting hawlucha to D:
The only reason of why Hawlucha is ranked is because it's banned in UU and haven't been test yet. And Hawlucha was only banned because this set:
Hawlucha @ Red Card
EV: 4 HP/252 SpA/252 Spe
Nature: Adamant Ability: Unburden
-Substitute
-Swords Dance
-Hi Jump Kick
-Acrobatics.

This set was broken in UU because Hawlucha can come in a lot of physical attackers, hide behind a Sub, take the attack and forced it out to a random pokemon. However, this was a glitch of PS because in the actual game Red Card doesn't activate if you are hiding in a Substitute.

Pretty sure the best way to activate unburden is sky attack and a power herb basically switch substitute with sky attack. Not sure if that would keep it out of D but it's a whole lot more viable.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Making a few more nominations.

B- -> C+ Alakazam, how you've fallen from grace... I'd just repeat myself, as everything's already been said, but it has so much trouble revenge killing stuff in this Generation with faster Pokémon like Greninja and priority users like Mega Pinsir, (Mega) Scizor and Talonflame all over the place. All in all, Mega's more worth it, but that is explained below. Alakazam should drop to C+.

B- -> B The problem with Mega Alakazam...is that it's a Mega Pokémon. It has a sizable opportunity cost, but is far better than regular Alakazam. With 175 Special Attack and 150 Speed, Mega Alakazam is an absolutely devastating offensive force. Gary2346 has already explained why this thing is good, so I can't really add much else, but the fact that, with the movepool and immense Special Attack and Speed that allow it to run a Modest nature without a care (it outspeeds +1 Jolly Mega Tyranitar to give an example), but being held back by being a Mega Pokémon, I still think Mega Alakazam deserves a solid B Rank. I'm fine with B-, but still prefer to see it a bit higher, just because it can be really effective once it gets going.

C -> C+ Salamence may be horribly outperformed in the current OU metagame, but honestly, it's more outclassed than outright bad. Dragonite has more bulk with Multiscale and Mega Charizard X has two awesome STABs to use, but Salamence can still perform mixed DD sets quite well. It's just often discredited due to being outclassed, like Thundurus-T, who is B-. Therefore, I support Salamence for C+ Rank.

A- -> B+ As has been brought up before, Latias just has a hard time keeping up with this offensively inclined metagame and its sibling Latios has a large advantage with its much higher Special Attack. Don't get me wrong, Latias is still good, but not as effective as it used to be/could be because of the metagame. Latias for B+.

 

[Rotosect]

Normal Alakazam shouldn't under any circumstances be ranked lower than Mega Alakazam. The former has an important niche as an almost flawless one-time revenge killer (and it's still a fast and powerful special attacker after revenge-killing something), the latter has to compete for a teamslot with not only other special attackers, but also other mega evolutions.

 

[acestriker19]

Making a few more nominations.

B- -> C+ Alakazam, how you've fallen from grace... I'd just repeat myself, as everything's already been said, but it has so much trouble revenge killing stuff in this Generation with faster Pokémon like Greninja and priority users like Mega Pinsir, (Mega) Scizor and Talonflame all over the place. All in all, Mega's more worth it, but that is explained below. Alakazam should drop to C+.

B- -> B The problem with Mega Alakazam...is that it's a Mega Pokémon. It has a sizable opportunity cost, but is far better than regular Alakazam. With 175 Special Attack and 150 Speed, Mega Alakazam is an absolutely devastating offensive force. Gary2346 has already explained why this thing is good, so I can't really add much else, but the fact that, with the movepool and immense Special Attack and Speed that allow it to run a Modest nature without a care (it outspeeds +1 Jolly Mega Tyranitar to give an example), but being held back by being a Mega Pokémon, I still think Mega Alakazam deserves a solid B Rank. I'm fine with B-, but still prefer to see it a bit higher, just because it can be really effective once it gets going.

C -> C+ Salamence may be horribly outperformed in the current OU metagame, but honestly, it's more outclassed than outright bad. Dragonite has more bulk with Multiscale and Mega Charizard X has two awesome STABs to use, but Salamence can still perform mixed DD sets quite well. It's just often discredited due to being outclassed, like Thundurus-T, who is B-. Therefore, I support Salamence for C+ Rank.

A- -> B+ As has been brought up before, Latias just has a hard time keeping up with this offensively inclined metagame and its sibling Latios has a large advantage with its much higher Special Attack. Don't get me wrong, Latias is still good, but not as effective as it used to be/could be because of the metagame. Latias for B+.

I agree with the zam stuff and don't really have any experience with mence, but I believe Latias should not go below A- rank for the fantastic advantage it has over latios in healing wish. Healing wish is fantastic for Latias as many high level tournament teams opt for Latias > Latios just for healing wish. With all the suicidal mons like Talonflame around healing wish is a fantastic move in the meta and Latias is the best user of it giving it a very important niche that puts it a A-. Oh and it's a better check to things like specs Keldeo.

 

[Kyuzeth]

Normal Alakazam shouldn't under any circumstances be ranked lower than Mega Alakazam. The former has an important niche as an almost flawless one-time revenge killer (and it's still a fast and powerful special attacker after revenge-killing something), the latter has to compete for a teamslot with not only other special attackers, but also other mega evolutions.

Mega Alakazam indeed needs to compete for a Mega Slot and is still frail, but being a faster AND harder hitter than regular Alakazam makes it far more lethal. On the other hand, while regular Alakazam is more of a revenge killer, Mega Alakazam is an optimized sweeper. Trace has a lot of benefits as well, being able to copy Intimidate, Multiscale or even Adaptability among many other useful things. Magic Guard on regular Zam makes it a great revenge killer, but overall it's outclassed by its Mega Evolution, which suffers from Mega Slot competition.

 

[Vdizzle]

Being able to use normal alakazam to revenge kill many pokemon while still being able to have a mega pokemon of your choice is hard to go against. I think Mega Alakazam is better than normal Alakazam, but it's hard to waste a mega slot on something that already does a great job revenge killing all kinds of threats. I think both pokemon are fine where they are at, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Rhaegar]

Yes, Alakazam is outclassed as a revenge killer, but just pointing out that Alakazam with Life Orb hits harder than a Timid Mega Alakazam. Megazam's higher speed makes the difference against only one common threat of Greninja and the less common Mega Manectric (only if Megazam's Timid). That being said, Trace is a far superior ability considering LOzam doesn't carry sash. The cost for Trace would be a mega slot. I wouldn't put them tiers apart. Maybe Megazam can be one up on regular Zam at best.

 

[Rechi]

Yes, Alakazam is outclassed as a revenge killer, but just pointing out that Alakazam with Life Orb hits harder than a Timid Mega Alakazam. Megazam's higher speed makes the difference against only one common threat of Greninja and the less common Mega Manectric (only if Megazam's Timid). That being said, Trace is a far superior ability considering LOzam doesn't carry sash. The cost for Trace would be a mega slot. I wouldn't put them tiers apart. Maybe Megazam can be one up on regular Zam at best.

Mega Alakazam commonly runs Modest so it's actually stronger than Life Orb Alakazam and still fast enough to outspeed Greninja and +1 Mega Gyara and Mega TTar.

 

[jbtc10]

Normal Alakazam is still pretty mediocre though. If he has LO, he doesn't have a Sash, which puts him at risk of in fact not being able to revenge kill things (like set-up sweepers). With a Sash and Timid, he doesn't hit very hard since he has no real powerful moves outside of his main STAB and his choices are pretty limited. I can't even recall encountering a single regular Alakazam in the upper half of the ladder this gen to be honest so there are clearly valid reasons why he's a sub-optimal choice for most teams and as such I can only support a drop, because he's even less used and less useful than many things ranked lower than him.

 

[Rhaegar]

I mentioned both those things. Mega Alakazam > LO Alakazam on account of the increased speed and Trace. Just saying that since it takes up the mega slot, it would belong on level with or a single step above Alakazam where tiering is concerned. Also note that a Modest Mega Alakazam gets outsped by the 105s on the transformation turn which handicaps it against the current flood of Keldeo, Latios and Thundurus. It would also have to be pre-transformed to revenge kill +1 TTar and Gyarados

 

[Gary]

Next ranking update has been implemented. Here are the changes:

http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...thread-re-ranking.3502268/page-6#post-5440385

EDIT: Made one last change since I posted this.

 

[MQJinx]

Gastrodon and Seismitoad could use some discussion, they still deserve to be ranked.

Seismitoad's main use is a rain sweeper that shrugs off Thundurus Thunder Waves and scares off Raikou with Ground typing. It even has the coverage to hit Ferrothorn and Azumarill (Focus Blast/Sludge Wave). It also has decent bulk for an offensive mon. (105/75/75). Rain-boosted Hydro Pump has decent power for an average Special Attack. C Rank imo.

Gastrodon can check VolTurn and any Thundurus lacking Grass Knot, as its Ground typing is the only reason to use it over Rotom-W. It can also check some rain threats due to Storm Drain. Its physical bulk and Recover grant it uses as a tank. However, weakness to Toxic and iffy offenses can really hurt. C Rank imo.