Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)

[The Lonely Alula]

Fair enough about the fairies and Latias, although Charizard Y definitely doesn't beat either one of them 100% of the time (although Bisharp does (at least the grand majority of the time), but this is about Charizard Y, not Bisharp, you can pair Landorus with Bisharp too), while Landorus at least has the option to deal more damage.

Also here's CBB Dragonite:
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Multiscale Dragonite in Sun: 63-74 (16.7 - 19.6%) -- possible 7HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 216 HP / 228 SpD Dragonite in Sun: 126-149 (33.4 - 39.5%) -- 20.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
64+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 159-187 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
64+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 106-125 (35.5 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

And Dragonite can Roost. Also, Landorus can outspeed and 2HKO it with HP Ice, although I'd say that Landorus does have 4MSS and probably will be walled by Dragonite as well. Bisharp and Charizard can also both be beaten by EdgeQuake, which is a fairly common combination. A lot of the Pokemon that can check Landorus can also check Charizard Y, but Landorus has an option to beat those Pokemon 100% of the time whereas Charizard has to rely on prediction and has no move that will allow it to beat that Pokemon if it switches in while you use a move that it resists (and still be able to break very many walls at all, as it really needs Fire Blast, SolarBeam, and Focus Blast, and without roost it's way too easily beaten by toxic, being worn down, and stealth rock).

 

[Jukain]

I think you're misinterpreting, Char Y just needs Defog and Pursuit which is not that much to ask lol. Defog is run on virtually every non-Deoxys team without Exca anyways, so it's not really a big consideration. Pursuit is extra but we can expect this for Keldeo and Landorus so why not for Char Y?

Blissey actually has two advantages: dealing with Knock Off Lando and tanking weak special hits better. Chansey is usually, but not 100%, better.

EDIT: oh and Flamethrower for Aegi

 

[Ninja Charizard]

I think you're misinterpreting, Char Y just needs Defog and Pursuit which is not that much to ask lol. Defog is run on virtually every non-Deoxys team without Exca anyways, so it's not really a big consideration. Pursuit is extra but we can expect this for Keldeo and Landorus so why not for Char Y?

Blissey actually has two advantages: dealing with Knock Off Lando and tanking weak special hits better. Chansey is usually, but not 100%, better.

Blissey can also use a non-fighting attacking move such as Flamethrower, allowing her to beat Gengar (something Chansey can't even dream of doing).

 

[Karxrida]

Nothing in S-rank can switch into Breloom thanks to Spore and most fail even to check unless Breloom's Sash has already been broken. Even if a Pokemon has already been sacrificed to sleep, Zard-X and Thundurus require Breloom's Sash to be broken to check, and only Aegislash can safely switch in. If Breloom is running a Toxic heal set, Aegislash can't even manage that. Spore is far from the only thing Breloom is able to do - it also has tremendously powerful STAB, powerful STAB priority, and a pretty strong coverage with a useful secondary effect in Rock Tomb, on top of the ability to wall a lot of threats who get off on the wrong foot with its Toxic Heal set.

That's why I said check. Also, Breloom tends to lose its Sash when Sporing or checking something (Base 70 Speed is kinda meh), making dealing with it stupidly easy afterward. It has a decent niche, but I believe it requires too much support and is too much of a one-shot mon to deserve A-.

 

[theV8man]

I think you're misinterpreting, Char Y just needs Defog and Pursuit which is not that much to ask lol. Defog is run on virtually every non-Deoxys team without Exca anyways, so it's not really a big consideration. Pursuit is extra but we can expect this for Keldeo and Landorus so why not for Char Y?

Blissey actually has two advantages: dealing with Knock Off Lando and tanking weak special hits better. Chansey is usually, but not 100%, better.

EDIT: oh and Flamethrower for Aegi

Lando-I also has that extra speed point and doesn't take up a mega slot AND requires less support. The choice for a reliable wallbreaker is clear.

 

[Jukain]

Lando-I also has that extra speed point and doesn't take up a mega slot AND requires less support. The choice for a reliable wallbreaker is clear.

it doesn't need defog support so that makes it obviously superior. sure.

 

[doughboy]

it doesn't need defog support so that makes it obviously superior. sure.

It actually is important. Using Defog, or trying to get a Defog user in, takes away momentum from you just like Rapid Spin last generation. And for an offensive team that Charizard Y / Landorus-I would find themselves on, that is pretty important. Not to mention how much of a bitch it is to deal something like +2 AV Bisharp / Defiant Thundurus-I is for offense and it is annoying to have to risk that to pull off Defog. And as you said, Defog isn't found on Deoxys HO, and it kinda sucks (isn't a huge deal) that you have to use another team slot for Excadrill if you want to pair up Charizard Y with Deo (the greatest thing to happen to HO).

But do you really think sacrificing momentum with Defog just to get Zard Y in the field is so negligible?

Not to mention you didn't address his other valid points. Not taking up a Mega-slot is a big deal. Keeping access to 5 A+ rank pokemon (not counting Charizard Y itself) and one S-rank threat which are some of the best sweepers in the metagame leaves you a lot more options for teambuilding. Of course you keep access to some lesser utilized megas too, like Agility Mega-Amp. While having the one extra point in speed isn't a huge deal because the pool of base 100 pokemon who run max speed is small, it still is nice to know you don't have to risk tying something threatening like Manaphy or opposing Charizards with Lando-I.
____________________________

There hasn't been some other stuff said that makes Landorus-I a better Pokemon compared to Charizard Y in my opinion.

First Charizard Y is a much, much more one dimensional pokemon than Landorus-I. This is important in regards to scouting. From team preview you can usually have a good idea of whether an opponent has Charizard X vs Charizard Y, although it still can be a pain if you guess wrong. Anyway, once you find out the opponent is using Charizard Y, which will happen after the first turn it is out, the only variation you have to assume is Roost vs Dragon Pulse. Landorus-I is a much different story. Even after a turn or multiple turns it has been out, it can still leave you completely clueless as to what its fourth option is. Knock Off and Calm Mind can leave your Chansey or Sp. Def Dragonite in the dust, and those options might not be revealed until late game. If it runs one of those, does it have Psychic or Sludge Wave? Of course the all-out attacker is completely legitimate too, and it can hit almost as many targets hard as Charizard Y can. Let's also not forget that Lando-I can also contribute a supporting role to a team by being a sick Stealth Rock setter. Since it can force so many Pokemon out with its power, it has many opportunities to set up free Stealth Rocks. Overall, Lando-I has way more options compared to Charizard Y.

Second, Charizard Y is on a timer for its wallbreaking power. The 5 turn timer can not be reset by Charizard Y itself, it can only be reset by another weather user paired with Charizard Y (particularly Scarf TTar and Hippowdon). While uncommon, this can lead to annoying scenarios where if Charizard Y comes in while Drought is active (Charizard Y ---> poke x --> poke x move ---> Charizard Y) you will not have the power to wallbreak because Drought disappeared / you don't have enough Drought turns to sweep an opponent. This also can force Charizard Y to switch out, which is bad especially because you are 4x weak to SR and you lose momentum. Landorus-I doesn't encounter this sort of issue.

 

[The Lonely Alula]

I think you're misinterpreting, Char Y just needs Defog and Pursuit which is not that much to ask lol. Defog is run on virtually every non-Deoxys team without Exca anyways, so it's not really a big consideration. Pursuit is extra but we can expect this for Keldeo and Landorus so why not for Char Y?

I think that Keldeo and Charizard Y deserve their A+ ranks despite their need for Pursuit support, not because of it. That's the main reason why all Pokemon aren't S ranks; because they need at least some sort of support to do their job at all. The higher ranks are reserved for only the Pokemon that need the least support, are the most efficient in their roles, and are the most unpredictable. Also, Landorus can run Knock Off or Calm Mind, making it not have as much of a need for pursuit support.

Also, Charizard Y is usually accompanied by weather support because of its wallbreaking "timer," and should (IMO) usually have more than just one Defog supporter because if that supporter is killed then it would be a lot easier to KO Charizard because you could just set up rocks and force it to switch three times, which is why I listed both defog and rapid spin support.

 

[Baharoth]

If that weather timer is so important, why not use CB Ttar instead of Bisharp? Resets weather, traps the Latis and can help wear down Chansey with Pursuit.

Having many different move options is certainly an advantage for Lando, but since it needs more of them than it can fit into one set its also a disadvantage as it can never deal with everything it wants to.

 

[Hoping4megasceptile]

Chansey is literally 100% better. Knock Off isn't an issue because you shouldn't keep your Chansey in on Knock Off (and its bulk isn't even bad without Eviolite, just worse than it was). The larger wishes don't matter when both still have <700 HP. The higher Special Defense doesn't matter at all because of Eviolite. Leftovers is not a good enough justification to use Blissey over Chansey. I don't know what you're getting at with the "100 damage" point because Chansey can use Seismic Toss too.

I meant that Blissey isn't completely eclipsed by chansey with small niches such as leftovers and better if caught by a knock off. Also, in the latter part, I was comparing it to sylveon. It has a similar role to sylveon because the both support the team with status curing and wishes. With the trade offs of more hp, more reliable damage (if running seismic toss because it has guaranteed 100 damage, no resistances or high defenses) better wishes and slightly better SpD. Sylveon has more offensive presence, higher def, slightly better speed, and (realizing it now) a better typing, making Blissey slightly worse and making me now believe Blissey deserves a B- ranking.

 

[QuickBH]

I meant that Blissey isn't completely eclipsed by chansey with small niches such as leftovers and better if caught by a knock off. Also, in the latter part, I was comparing it to sylveon. It has a similar role to sylveon because the both support the team with status curing and wishes. With the trade offs of more hp, more reliable damage (if running seismic toss because it has guaranteed 100 damage, no resistances or high defenses) better wishes and slightly better SpD. Sylveon has more offensive presence, higher def, slightly better speed, and (realizing it now) a better typing, making Blissey slightly worse and making me now believe Blissey deserves a B- ranking.

Well, despite how good a Pokemon is in a meta, if the Pokemon is COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED by other Pokemon it should inherently be low because it has no reason to be used instead of the Pokemon that is 100% better than it.

 

[jbtc10]

We

Well, despite how good a Pokemon is in a meta, if the Pokemon is COMPLETELY OUTCLASSED by other Pokemon it should inherently be low because it has no reason to be used instead of the Pokemon that is 100% better than it.

It isn't 100% better, since Blissey does have 1 slight but non-negligible niche over Chansey; being able to hold a Shed Shell to escape the deathly clutches of Gothitelle. GothZard is a pretty problematic core for standard full stall teams that rely on Chansey to wall Zard-Y (which most do).

 

[skies]

It isn't 100% better, since Blissey does have 1 slight but non-negligible niche over Chansey; being able to hold a Shed Shell to escape the deathly clutches of Gothitelle. GothZard is a pretty problematic core for standard full stall teams that rely on Chansey to wall Zard-Y (which most do).

But not every team runs that core, not every team runs Gothitelle for many reasons. It can be better in that regard, but what is it going to do when it switches? You shouldn't let Chansey kill something when Gothitelle is on the opponent's team, and Chansey can Toxic stall Gothitelle, and if it Tricks, Gothitelle loses the power of Specs, while in return Chansey is hit as hard by no Specs Gothitelle w/o Life Orb. Basically, my point is, that super duper small little niche isn't enough to warrant how shitty Blissey is.

 

[the-bumper-car]

Blissey is just so outclassed by all the other defensive mons in OU right now it's not even funny. Even more punishing for it, all the other defensive mons have some form of synergy with each other, but adding Blissey to your stall team ruins your synergy because you're either dropping Chansey, who can wall more things, or you're running both Blissey and Chansey together, in which case you just gave your opponent a 2-for-one because everything they're running to break Chansey will also take care of Blissey with little additional effort.

 

[jbtc10]

But not every team runs that core, not every team runs Gothitelle for many reasons.

Of course not, but against ones that do, Chansey is generally screwed, unfortunately. Goth is also becoming more common too.

It can be better in that regard, but what is it going to do when it switches?

Switch into something that doesn't care about anything Goth can do and can beat it, and in the process, save it's own life and be able to continue to wall the shit your team needs it to.

You shouldn't let Chansey kill something when Gothitelle is on the opponent's team

How does that change what Goth does? What happens is that when they send in something which you would use Chansey to wall, they either double switch into Goth to trap it there and then, or they just switch into Goth after Chansey has taken a hit. If you switch out predicting that, that's generally fine by them, they can keep rinsing and repeating that until Chansey is forced to Softboiled or be 2HKO'd next time by, for example, Charizard Y.

Chansey can Toxic stall Gothitelle, and if it Tricks, Gothitelle loses the power of Specs, while in return Chansey is hit as hard by no Specs Gothitelle w/o Life Orb.

Goth can't be Toxic stalled if it carries Rest (which they often do, and should, to beat Chansey). All Goth needs to beat Chansey, regardless of Toxic, is Rest + 301 HP (80 EV's). It can Trick Chansey the Specs or Scarf, which if it locks Chansey into anything except Seismic Toss, it's screwed on the spot and will be forced to Struggle in 16 turns. If it locks it into Seismic Toss, it gets PP stalled by Rest and forces a Struggle in 32 turns. Then, on the last turn before Chansey dies to Struggle recoil, Goth can Trick back the Choice item and continue on its merry way trolling the rest of your stall team.

Basically, my point is, that super duper small little niche isn't enough to warrant how shitty Blissey is.

Blissey is quite shit, yes, because it's a lot less bulky than Chansey, I was merely saying it does have 1 relatively usable perk over Chansey (some say "zomg leftovers" and "zomg flamethrower" but the only actual legitimate advantage which actually matters is being able to escape trappers).

 

[ShadesOfSolomon]

That's why I said check. Also, Breloom tends to lose its Sash when Sporing or checking something (Base 70 Speed is kinda meh), making dealing with it stupidly easy afterward. It has a decent niche, but I believe it requires too much support and is too much of a one-shot mon to deserve A-.

Thing with Sashloom is that is really doesn't need to do anything more than to Spore or check something - that is its niche. It's preferred over the Toxic Heal and the LO/ Scarf/ Band sets because it's so reliable in its ability to cripple or take out a critical member of the opponent's team. Keep hazards off the field, and if your opponent doesn't run Mega Venusaur, you're virtually guaranteed to cripple one Pokemon and be well on your way to messing up another. Switch it in on a resisted hit on a slower Pokemon, or against a wall that can't really hurt it, and you're guaranteed of the same. Sashloom runs its Sash because additional survivability, power or speed that would come from using a different item, ability or spread, generally has less utility than the guaranteed sleep. That's also why Breloom has shot up in usage - it's actually extremely easy to slot into a team. It requires a lot of support if you want it to stick around - it doesn't take much to put something to sleep.

And that's just Sashloom. Other variants, whilst not as popular, are still perfectly viable and present a nasty surprise if mispredicted.

 

[Red Cat]

Shed Shell Blissey can only get away from Gothitelle once, and Shed Shell doesn't help at all against Pursuit trappers. The lack of Leftovers will give away that you are using some gimmick on Blissey (could be a Focus Sash too, but your opponent will know that Shed Shell is a possibility). Blissey does have some small niches over Chansey, but that is why it is C rank instead of being unranked entirely. Blissey isn't bad in its own right, and it may deserve a bump up to C+, but it does not belong in the B range as long as Chansey is more useful in the vast majority of situations.

 

[Rotosect]

Shed Shell is not one-time use.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

Blissey is as useful as a B+ pokemon, however being outclassed by Chansey partially (everything except special lure attacks, Knock Off and Leftovers, the last one is the one that most matters). Which means that it has to be in a lower rank than any B one.

Shed Shell is not one fo the reason why could be viable. For starters, Gothitelle is not inmune to Seismic Toss nor Toxic. Second, not all Gothitelle can trap Blissey (the ones with Psychic (and it's used more than you may thinkare wall by Blissey/Chansey. Third, Gothitelle is a threat in UU range (BL) and hs viability is B, meaning is not a top threat.

Chansey was deemed unviable in Ubers because MGengar is inmune to Seismic Toss and Toxic meaning that Chansey can do anything against it. And MGengar is S rank in Ubers, not B.

 

[skies]

Shed Shell is not one-time use.

Yes, but then the opponent knows Gothitelle cannot trap Blissey and the surprise factor is gone once it switches out of Gothitelle.

 

[Eievui-Nymphia]

OU legal Pokemon in Ubers:

Hide

A+: Landorus-T (expected to go down)
A: Deoxys-Speed
A-: Mega Scizor
B+: Sylveon, Thundurus, Wobbuffet.
B: Aegislash, Bronzong, Deoxys-D, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Gliscor, Heatran, Tyranitar, Whismicott.
B-: Blissey, Clefable, Cloyster, Hippowdon, Quagsire, Sableye, Scolipede.
C+: Charizard (in particular, MCharizard-X), Gothitelle, (Mega) Gyarados, Jirachi, Shuckle, Skarmory, Smeargle, Terrakion.
C: Ammonguss, Cresselia, Ditto.
C- Mega Abomasnow, Gastrodon.

E: Chansey.

Why Chansey is unviable in ubers even though it can wall top threats? Exclusively for Mega Gengar, who is S alongside (mega) Mewtwo, Xerneas and Arceus-N.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

The fact that Blissey is not screwed over by Knock Off, can damage Ghost-types (especially those with Substitute) by running a special move, can escape trappers by using Shed Shell and CAN EVEN RUN A CALM MIND SET IF SHE NEEDS TO (I know CM Blissey is bad with that 75 base special attack, but still.) is enough imo to differentiate herself from Chansey.

Blissey is not outclassed at all, damn it.

 

[skies]

Well, this is not Ubers, and the tiers do not impact these rankings. For instance, Venomoth shot from NU to BL. Hippowdown sat in UU, while Donphan was OU, even though Hippowdown will always be better, those shouldn't be your arguments "eh, _______- is in UU, so it can't be ranked that high" is not a good argument as well. And this isn't Ubers again, Chansey sucks because its plowed down, is total setup bait, and is completely beaten by Mega Gengar, whereas Blissey runs Shed Shell to get away from it, however, both are utter shit in Ubers anyways.

EDIT:
Seriously, stop fucking saying Blissey isn't crippled by Knock Off, it can't beat any Knock Off user and is just a little less crippled by Knock Off than Chansey, and what Pokemon enjoys Knock Off? Not very many, so please stop using this argument. And
0 SpA Blissey Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 65-77 (24.8 - 29.3%) -- possible 5HKO after Black Sludge recovery
???? So, just switch. The fact that you even mentioned CM Blissey is just.... wow. It's a completely shitty gimmick only used below 1200 rankings. Chansey is far superior than Blissey.

 

[jbtc10]

Yes, but then the opponent knows Gothitelle cannot trap Blissey and the surprise factor is gone once it switches out of Gothitelle.

It's not meant to be a surprise, it's meant to stop you from being trapped and killed. It changes nothing that they know it has a Shed Shell, it just means they now know that their special attacker wont be getting past it any time soon.

Furthermore, it can viably run Fire Blast over Seismic Toss to prevent Bisharp from coming in and Pursuit trapping it on Yard-Y teams, which further prevents it from being trap bait, while also also stopping other steels like Scizor and Ferrothorn from being able to completely set up on it like they would to Chansey;

12 SpA Blissey Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Bisharp in Sun: 256-302 (94.4 - 111.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

These are mostly minor details, but they actually are fairly valid. It's a well known fact that Chansey is pretty much the generic face of stall at the moment, so she is a pretty vulnerable target for tactics such as the ones discussed above and being able to circumvent those is enough of a plus to prevent it from dropping, and possibly enough to get a slight raise to C+ since at the end of the day, despite being outclassed most of the time, it's still a good special wall with some relevant ways to distinguish itself.

 

[Salemance]

OU legal Pokemon in Ubers:

Hide

A+: Landorus-T (expected to go down)
A: Deoxys-Speed
A-: Mega Scizor
B+: Sylveon, Thundurus, Wobbuffet.
B: Aegislash, Bronzong, Deoxys-D, Excadrill, Ferrothorn, Forretress, Gliscor, Heatran, Tyranitar, Whismicott.
B-: Blissey, Clefable, Cloyster, Hippowdon, Quagsire, Sableye, Scolipede.
C+: Charizard (in particular, MCharizard-X), Gothitelle, (Mega) Gyarados, Jirachi, Shuckle, Skarmory, Smeargle, Terrakion.
C: Ammonguss, Cresselia, Ditto.
C- Mega Abomasnow, Gastrodon.

E: Chansey.

Why Chansey is unviable in ubers even though it can wall top threats? Exclusively for Mega Gengar, who is S alongside (mega) Mewtwo, Xerneas and Arceus-N.

This is a question best left to simple questions and answers in uber forum, but since Chansey is unable to carry Shed Shell (or escape item) it is left to be trapped by Mega Gengar, meaning it is effectively useless/dead weight for your team.