It still pases 321 HP wishes, which is very large still, and it's better as 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD for all-around bulkiness. But, let's not discuss this EV spread, it brought up two long pages of bad discussion.
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Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (V2) (Last update on post #5189)
- Thread starter alexwolf
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It still pases 321 HP wishes, which is very large still, and it's better as 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpD for all-around bulkiness. But, let's not discuss this EV spread, it brought up two long pages of bad discussion.
Blissey's standard EV spread is 252HP/252Def, Chansy's one is 252Def/252Sdef.Anyway Chansey is better than Blissey just like Sylveon is better than Florges who got blacklisted.
They're both 4 HP / 252 Def / 252 Def but who gives a fuck, what I'm saying is using different spreads will obviously give one the advantage over the other. Blissey should be blacklisted, it just gets really bad negative discussion
I agree on the latter,the main point behind my first post on this regard was that Chansey should be moved from A- to A/A+ tier
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I believe the reason Chansey isn't A/A+ is because it's best playstyle, stall, is easily taken advantage of when using Pokemon expected to be on stall, ie Chansey. In over words, Chansey is predictable and exploitable, thanks to Knock Off Landorus/Thundurus, Trick Mons, Taunt Mons, and Bisharp. On order to be truly affective, stall has to be Pokemon that, while effective, are not prepared for as well and easily as Chansey is.
Yes, you already said this and it is incorrect, can we drop it? The Blissey analysis has my spread on all the sets, could you please explain your reasoning for insisting on 252 HP / 252 Def? And Chansey, as Halycon has said, is really only viable on Stall, which can easily be taken advantage of and played out to negatively impact it. Calcs don't really make an argument imo, and I don't think Gary's willing to move Chansey or Blissey up without great arguments, which there hasn't been very much of :/.
As to this, I see Moltres in C ...is there anyone who has successfully used Moltres/found a niche? I understand she is great in the lower tiers, basically as a replacement Zard Y or Rain Team Hurricane spammer, but in OU we have Zard Y, Tflame w/priority BB...is C rank good for her?
I'm fine with most of those but no way should Escavalier drop. Assault Vest Escavalier is quite underrated at the moment while it faces competition from vest Scizor, Escavalier has some benefits such as being way more bulky on both sides. Escavalier can 2HKO thundurus with a resisted Megahorn and can pursuit trap both lati twins while taking minimal damage. Overcoat allows it to be a solid answer to Breloom as well. Escavalier definately has a niche in OU and I've used on a couple of teams pretty well. The best part is how minimal support Escavalier requires basically get a pokemon that can take fire attack and WoW and you're good. Escavalier does not find usage only on Trick Room teams give him an honest try as an AV user and he works well, well enough for C+ IMO but I'm fine with C but it should not move down.
man wtf is thundy t doing in b-. higher special attack and volt absorb is nice and all but the opportunity cost of not being able to use thundy i is way too big, especially considering the benefits of thundurus t (not many)
Thats the thing, all these mons have some kind of niche, but non of them is realy worth using because there are better things out there that will almost always be chosen instead. I cant remember ever having seen an Escavalier on the ladder, same for many other things in those ranks. C ranks are for things that CAN work/have a niche thats their whole purpose so actually there should be things added instead of removed. If you dont want to "mislead" players into using stuff that isnt ideal for top level play -> remove those ranks all together. Everything else is just inconsequent shit as so often here.
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ok, i will try him... the reason my tone is like it is on the previous posts is because many of these C and below I haven't used bc..lol. A lot of them u can eyeball and know that they're not good, but a couple might be worth something and I don't want to kill one off that might be useful.
Crowleone reached like number 3 or something on the ladder with a tailwind murcrow..not saying it should be ranked or anything...part of the problem may be is that there is just so many pokemon that can be used on a team of like, five S and A+ threats/behemoths + 1 slightly shit mon, and in that environment they can work if someone wants to use them...I agree that a lot of the C and below is just like, a catch all for everything, and that if we limited the rankings to only things that work on DeoD HO, or whatever then it wouldn't really be reflecting the huge pool of useable pokemon. Personally I don't want to have to go thru C rank and below and try to make teams with them that would work bc it just seems like an incredibly taxing and futile endeavor, although if convincing arguments are brought up for any of them moving up or dropping i would be very OK with that, (see above acestriker's support of escavalier, who seems like he could actually perform a good role on a team)
Florges syndrome. In other words, very outclassed by Thundurus-I. Thundurus-I has two very powerful abilities compared to Thundurus-T Defiant for HO, and Prankster for basically every playstyle.
Same with Blissey and Chansey. Chansey outclasses it in the most role. And when I talked about Knock Off I already separate MAbsol Knock Off (150 Base Attack+ STAB + 252 EVs) to Gliscor (95 Base Attack + very few EVs).
And about Donphan.... No. About the pokemon it outclasses it (except Rapid Spin), Hippowdon. It's in A, evden though it's actually UU (lokoloko keeps it in the tier with no problem).
True that he has realiable recovery, and is a great wall. By I see various flaws:
4MSS in a way, or he can be walled by Flying and Levitate pokemon. For some, it doesn't mean it auto-loses but for others there's a problem.
Not enough resistances, specially on the special side. Inmunity to Electric is nice, but neutrality to Fire, Psychic, Ghost and three weakness that are commonly special (Water, Grass and Ice) are not fun.
An ability that is incompatible with some of his teammates: Hippowdon is a great partner to MVenusaur... but his ability is bad on MVenusaur. Hippowdon can use Sand Force, which is useless.
Low attack for OU without investivement. 112 Base Attack is not enough without investment. And giving offensive EVs reduces its bulk, which in OU it's unacceptable.
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Yeah C-rank is still very messed up as there isn't really an exact consensus of what C rank should be like: it seems like a mixture of pokemon that are effective in one playstyle (see Seismitoad, Reuniclus or Vaporeon) but terrible in anything else or Pokemon that are almost completely escliped by others (see Blissey, Zygarde or Kyurem) or pokemon that used to be way more effective in the metagame than they are right now (see Celebi, Toxicroak, Dugtrio) I feel like the mixture makes it so hard to tell what has a small niche in OU (Escavalier for instance) and what is outclassed or only good in one playstyle. I think we need something to distunguish these three seperate things because otherwise C-rank will continue to be very confusing.
I know that. I was saying it should drop. just not d rank, it does have advantages over incarnate form, just somewhere is the c's
He is talking about Thundurus-T not about Blissey... If you want reasons for Flamethrower/Fire Blast, it hits Aegi allowing Blissey to actually beat it, it keeps things like Ferro and Scizor away, deters Bisharp from coming in to Pursuit trap and can damage Gengar just to name a few.
....I'm confused, are you saying Hippowdon is not nearly as good as we say he is or what cause I got lost after the Donphan comparison.
A few pages ago some meaningful points were put forth about Blissey, and now it comes across as though you're trying to pretend like nothing was. It boils down to being able to 2HKO Ferro with Fire Blast and therefore prevent it from being able to switch in and set up on you, 1HKO'ing Scizor, 1HKO'ing Bisharp in the sun (against Char-Y teams), and escaping Goth with Shed Shell.
But anyway, if things like Blissey are being pushed to not be ranked, then in order for that to make sense the whole list would probably need to be re-calibrated. The "it's outclassed" argument is one thing, but that can indirectly apply to pretty much most things from C+ and below since to use any of those decidedly mediocre things means that you aren't instead using something which is higher ranked, hence there's basically an automatic opportunity cost for most of them.
Okay, so the last couple pages have been very... interesting. We brought back the Chansey vs. Blissey argument (guys, I honestly had déjà vu), thought about dropping Pokemon solely based on their BST, and talked about the validity of the C and D ranks. I'll try to respond, to the best of my ability, as well as highlight some Pokemon that should move.
The C rank is meant to be for Pokemon that can be used well, but require support far greater than Pokemon in above ranks. It doesn't mean it's a shitmon, or one that is only ever used by noobs. A Pokemon's SPL usage is helpful in determining how viable a Pokemon, but it isn't the end of the story. Infernape, for example, may have 0% usage in SPL, but it doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a ranking, an analysis, or a teamslot. Of course, the problems with using Infernape should always be noted, but, Infernape can be used well on a good team by a good player. The D rank represents Pokemon with either even less of a niche or that require even more support, but are still not deadweight. These Pokemon (Cs and Ds) can and will be used in a competitive setting. They generally perform worse than those in above ranks, but still deserve to have a ranking.
Okay, on to my thoughts on each rank/sub rank.
• The other change I'd make is dropping Thundurus-T to C+. It's powerful and fast, but it comes with such a huge loss of opportunity. Thundurus-I has much more utility for a team; it's unpredictable, it can end sweeps with priority Twave, kill Stall with Taunt, all while hitting hard with both of its offenses. Thundurus-T hits harder and has a good DoubleDance set. However, the opportunity lost is apparent, and certainly should be considered.
• Mega Aggron deserves to go back to B- rank. It has little opportunity cost when used; it always pulls its weight. It hits incredibly hard and will not die to any physical attack. It's very useful for stopping basically every physical attacker in its tracks, all while crippling switch ins with Twave or damage. The lack of recovery sucks, but that's why it isn't A rank.
• Mega Ampharos deserves B- rank. This one I'm really adamant about. It has insane bulk and insane power, which both let it perform as a tank. It can be a pseudo cleric with Heal Bell, as well as a hard hitting bulky pivot with Volt Switch. Additionally, it can use agility, often on rain teams, to first outspeed Tornadus-T, and then sweep with its destructive, Modest STABs. Its typing gives it useful resistances as well as great STABs, and its only true flaw is the lack of recovery. However, it can use RestTalk superbly.
• Mega Blastoise deserves C rank. Yes, it defeats spinblockers. But, who actually uses them anymore? The two best spinblockers, Aegislash and Gengar, are both absolutely destroyed by the much superior spinner, Excadrill. Yes, the difference in typing is useful. However, taking your mega slot for a spinner usually isn't worth it, especially when some of the best Pokemon in the game that need hazard support, Pinsir and Charizard, cannot be used effectively with it.
• Celebi for C- rank. This is a case of a Pokemon that can't do what it wants to do effectively, but still is decent in and of itself. It passes Nasty Plots. Cool, right? Well, why wouldn't you use Venomoth, Gorebyss, or Smeargle to pass Shell Smashes or Quiver Dances? The extra speed is much more useful. Also, Celebi's typing is just so bad. Basically every Pokemon it wants to be able to wall, like Landorus, carries a utility move that hits it extremely hard: either Knock Off or Uturn. There honestly aren't many Pokemon that can't OHKO Celebi. Rain isn't prominent, and even if it were, it still would have a hard time. It isn't the level of D rank, but C rank is 100% overselling it.
• Goodra for C- rank. What exactly does it do? Okay, I won't be as critical of it as others have been, but still. It takes special hits well, falls to basically every physical hit, can't recover, and can only do a fair amount of damage. Sure, it isn't ever useless, but when does it ever do something notable?
• Hydreigon for C rank. It's nowhere near as bad as Goodra. It can accomplish things in battle. However, it's walled by every fairy in the game, is now considered fairly weak, is still very slow, and only has decent defenses. Is there a point to using it? Of course. However, it often finds itself in a position where something else would be preferable, and C+ is a rank where things are between the definitions of C and B, not completely at C.
• Krookodile back to B-. Its typing is extremely useful defensively. It hits hard for a defensive Pokemon, has utility in Taunt, Stealth Rock, Toxic, and Knock Off, and is an Intimidate user that can beat Bisharp. Its offensive sets are also very good, with Moxie being able to clean up late game. It's often compared to Landorus-T, but the better typing for an Intimidate user, as well as the absence of lost opportunity make up for it. The difference between A and B- is obviously still large - C+ is underselling Krook.
• Kyurem down to C rank. Can it do things? Yes. SubRoost is an annoying strategy that stalls out Pokemon quickly. It hits hard and has astounding bulk. However, the poor defensive typing and the mediocre speed, as well as the large opportunity lost makes it often not worth it, and thus deserving of C.
• Zygarde down to C rank. I'm not going to be one of those people who says it's outclassed by Garchomp - it isn't. Its main problem is the absence of an important niche. SubCoil is cool, however, it lacks immediate power and is easy to stop with its low speed and common weaknesses. It is outclassed by nothing, and isn't without a niche, but is still fairly mediocre.
• Crobat to Unranked. It frankly doesn't do anything notable. It lacks power and defenses; all it has is speed. There are good defoggers in the metagame, and the bat unfortunately isn't one of them.
• Gardevoir to C+ rank. Call me crazy, but I've been using Scarf Gardevoir a lot lately, and it is very good. Its flaws are noticeable - it is fairly weak and has no physical defenses. However, it is THE ONLY fast fairy type, and thus is a great choice if your team needs a Pokemon to be able to revenge the musketeers. Trace is also a fantastic ability.
• Gourgeist-XL to D rank. It is a phenomenal counter to Diggersby and Excadrill, but other than that it doesn't do much. Its small forme is generally superior, as it has the speed necessary to be an effective Will-o-Wisp and Leech Seed user.
• I forget who mentioned it earlier, but I agree. Porygon2 deserves C+ rank. Its bulk is outstanding, it has a fair amount of power, and great utility in Twave and Foul Play. It can recover, which is amazing for a wall, has the always great ability Trace, and can set up Trick Room. It is hindered by Knock Off, but just look at Chansey! Porygon2 absolutely needs to move up.
• Snorlax for D rank. What exactly does it do? Okay, it has Blissey level special bulk, with a real offensive presence. It's less conventional than other special walls and tanks, and for a good reason; it has no recovery. There frankly is little reason to use Snorlax, and I find D rank to be much more appropriate.
• Tangrowth absolutely needs to go back to C+ rank, even B-. Its physical bulk is outstanding, and with an assault vest, its special bulk is so too. It has reliable recovery in the form of Regenerator, hits exceptionally hard with Leaf Storm, and has great coverage with its remaining moves. It is also able to cripple many Pokemon with Knock Off. It has a worse typing than Amoonguss, but has much more bulk and hits much harder. It is an exceptional offensive pivot, and C rank is not where it belongs.
• Toxicroak to unranked. It's far to passive to actual fit on rain teams, its supposed niche. Unlike other pokemon that belong in D rank, Toxicroak actually a) doesn't have to be ranked, and b) doesn't have a niche, at all.
• Zoroark for unranked. It has a tiny tiny tiny niche, but its flaws are too much to warrant a ranking.
Also, Froslass for whatever reason was removed from the list. It was always C- rank, and I think it fits in there perfectly. It still has an analysis, and I have no idea why it was removed. If it really needs discussion, fine, but I think the best decision would be to just put it back where it was.
The C rank is meant to be for Pokemon that can be used well, but require support far greater than Pokemon in above ranks. It doesn't mean it's a shitmon, or one that is only ever used by noobs. A Pokemon's SPL usage is helpful in determining how viable a Pokemon, but it isn't the end of the story. Infernape, for example, may have 0% usage in SPL, but it doesn't mean it doesn't warrant a ranking, an analysis, or a teamslot. Of course, the problems with using Infernape should always be noted, but, Infernape can be used well on a good team by a good player. The D rank represents Pokemon with either even less of a niche or that require even more support, but are still not deadweight. These Pokemon (Cs and Ds) can and will be used in a competitive setting. They generally perform worse than those in above ranks, but still deserve to have a ranking.
Okay, on to my thoughts on each rank/sub rank.
• Everything is perfect here. Not much to say.S Rank:
Aegislash
Charizard (Mega-X)
Deoxys-D
Deoxys-S
Landorus
Thundurus
• Again, absolutely nothing I would change.A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time
A+ Rank
Azumarill
Bisharp
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Clefable
Excadrill
Garchomp
Greninja
Gyarados (Mega)
Keldeo
Mawile (Mega)
Pinsir (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Talonflame
Tyranitar (Mega)
• There's honestly nothing worth bringing up here.A Rank
Dragonite
Ferrothorn
Gengar
Heatran
Hippowdon
Kyurem-B
Landorus-T
Latios
Terrakion
Tyranitar
Venusaur (Mega)
• Breloom is good, and it has recently surged in popularity. However, I think A- is overselling it. It needs hazard control to work properly and is reliant on a weak STAB and an inconsistent STAB. Yes, BirdSpam has gone down a bit. But, Birds still slaughter Breloom, it still can't get past Mandibuzz and Venusaur, and it hates how Fiery the metagame has become. It's a super useful Mon, but it is reliant on its team to function more than other ranked Pokemon, and I feel like it fits in with the B+ ranked Pokemon better.A- Rank
Breloom
Chansey
Latias
Mamoswine
Manaphy
Mandibuzz
Rotom-W
Skarmory
Zapdos
• I believe Scolipede deserves A- rank. Its flaws are apparent, however, its Life Orb late game cleaner set is extremely good now. It beats Deoxys-S, who often ends sweeps prematurely. Its coverage allows it to beat many common threats in the metagame, and its poor special bulk is mitigated by its excellent speed and power. I won't even bring up Baton Pass.B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.
B+ Rank
Conkeldurr
Diggersby
Garchomp (Mega)
Gardevoir (Mega)
Gliscor
Gyarados
Kabutops
Manectric (Mega)
Medicham (Mega)
Politoed
Quagsire
Raikou
Scizor
Scolipede
Slowbro
• Everything here is ranked perfectly.B Rank
Amoonguss
Chesnaught
Gothitelle
Heracross (Mega)
Kingdra
Lucario
Mew
Suicune
Sylveon
Tornadus-T
• Okay, two main things here. One: Staraptor is much more of a B ranked threat to me. Its band set is absurdly powerful, and is able to break walls so that Talonflame and/or Pinsir can clean. Its scarf set is still powerful, but instead allows it to revenge kill threats.B- Rank
Absol (Mega)
Aerodactyl (Mega)
Alakazam (Mega)
Crawdaunt
Rhyperior
Staraptor
Thundurus-T
Victini
Volcarona
• The other change I'd make is dropping Thundurus-T to C+. It's powerful and fast, but it comes with such a huge loss of opportunity. Thundurus-I has much more utility for a team; it's unpredictable, it can end sweeps with priority Twave, kill Stall with Taunt, all while hitting hard with both of its offenses. Thundurus-T hits harder and has a good DoubleDance set. However, the opportunity lost is apparent, and certainly should be considered.
Here's where things get really weird. The C ranks are divided very weirdly, and I'll try to make sense of it.C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can be effective given the right support, but either have crippling flaws that prevent them from consistently executing their strategy or are completely eclipsed by a Pokemon in the above ranks.
C+ Rank
Aggron (Mega)
Alakazam
Ampharos (Mega)
Blastoise (Mega)
Celebi
Ditto
Entei
Espeon
Goodra
Haxorus
Hydreigon
Klefki
Krookodile
Kyurem
Rotom-H
Sableye
Sharpedo
Shuckle
Smeargle
Starmie
Togekiss
Weavile
Zygarde
• Mega Aggron deserves to go back to B- rank. It has little opportunity cost when used; it always pulls its weight. It hits incredibly hard and will not die to any physical attack. It's very useful for stopping basically every physical attacker in its tracks, all while crippling switch ins with Twave or damage. The lack of recovery sucks, but that's why it isn't A rank.
• Mega Ampharos deserves B- rank. This one I'm really adamant about. It has insane bulk and insane power, which both let it perform as a tank. It can be a pseudo cleric with Heal Bell, as well as a hard hitting bulky pivot with Volt Switch. Additionally, it can use agility, often on rain teams, to first outspeed Tornadus-T, and then sweep with its destructive, Modest STABs. Its typing gives it useful resistances as well as great STABs, and its only true flaw is the lack of recovery. However, it can use RestTalk superbly.
• Mega Blastoise deserves C rank. Yes, it defeats spinblockers. But, who actually uses them anymore? The two best spinblockers, Aegislash and Gengar, are both absolutely destroyed by the much superior spinner, Excadrill. Yes, the difference in typing is useful. However, taking your mega slot for a spinner usually isn't worth it, especially when some of the best Pokemon in the game that need hazard support, Pinsir and Charizard, cannot be used effectively with it.
• Celebi for C- rank. This is a case of a Pokemon that can't do what it wants to do effectively, but still is decent in and of itself. It passes Nasty Plots. Cool, right? Well, why wouldn't you use Venomoth, Gorebyss, or Smeargle to pass Shell Smashes or Quiver Dances? The extra speed is much more useful. Also, Celebi's typing is just so bad. Basically every Pokemon it wants to be able to wall, like Landorus, carries a utility move that hits it extremely hard: either Knock Off or Uturn. There honestly aren't many Pokemon that can't OHKO Celebi. Rain isn't prominent, and even if it were, it still would have a hard time. It isn't the level of D rank, but C rank is 100% overselling it.
• Goodra for C- rank. What exactly does it do? Okay, I won't be as critical of it as others have been, but still. It takes special hits well, falls to basically every physical hit, can't recover, and can only do a fair amount of damage. Sure, it isn't ever useless, but when does it ever do something notable?
• Hydreigon for C rank. It's nowhere near as bad as Goodra. It can accomplish things in battle. However, it's walled by every fairy in the game, is now considered fairly weak, is still very slow, and only has decent defenses. Is there a point to using it? Of course. However, it often finds itself in a position where something else would be preferable, and C+ is a rank where things are between the definitions of C and B, not completely at C.
• Krookodile back to B-. Its typing is extremely useful defensively. It hits hard for a defensive Pokemon, has utility in Taunt, Stealth Rock, Toxic, and Knock Off, and is an Intimidate user that can beat Bisharp. Its offensive sets are also very good, with Moxie being able to clean up late game. It's often compared to Landorus-T, but the better typing for an Intimidate user, as well as the absence of lost opportunity make up for it. The difference between A and B- is obviously still large - C+ is underselling Krook.
• Kyurem down to C rank. Can it do things? Yes. SubRoost is an annoying strategy that stalls out Pokemon quickly. It hits hard and has astounding bulk. However, the poor defensive typing and the mediocre speed, as well as the large opportunity lost makes it often not worth it, and thus deserving of C.
• Zygarde down to C rank. I'm not going to be one of those people who says it's outclassed by Garchomp - it isn't. Its main problem is the absence of an important niche. SubCoil is cool, however, it lacks immediate power and is easy to stop with its low speed and common weaknesses. It is outclassed by nothing, and isn't without a niche, but is still fairly mediocre.
• Chandelure to D rank. What are some reasons to use it? Anyone? Exactly. Its scarf set is very easily countered and checked, its specs set is incredibly slow, and its defensive set is honestly terrible. It isn't terrible, but its niche is so tiny that I can honestly never justify it on a team.C Rank
Abomasnow (Mega)
Banette (Mega)
Blissey
Chandelure
Crobat
Dugtrio
Escavalier
Gardevoir
Gastrodon
Gourgeist-Small
Gourgeist-XL
Houndoom (Mega)
Infernape
Magnezone
Moltres
Omastar
Porygon2
Reuniclus
Roserade
Salamence
Seismitoad
Snorlax
Tangrowth
Tornadus
Toxicroak
Umbreon
Vaporeon
Venomoth
Wobbuffet
• Crobat to Unranked. It frankly doesn't do anything notable. It lacks power and defenses; all it has is speed. There are good defoggers in the metagame, and the bat unfortunately isn't one of them.
• Gardevoir to C+ rank. Call me crazy, but I've been using Scarf Gardevoir a lot lately, and it is very good. Its flaws are noticeable - it is fairly weak and has no physical defenses. However, it is THE ONLY fast fairy type, and thus is a great choice if your team needs a Pokemon to be able to revenge the musketeers. Trace is also a fantastic ability.
• Gourgeist-XL to D rank. It is a phenomenal counter to Diggersby and Excadrill, but other than that it doesn't do much. Its small forme is generally superior, as it has the speed necessary to be an effective Will-o-Wisp and Leech Seed user.
• I forget who mentioned it earlier, but I agree. Porygon2 deserves C+ rank. Its bulk is outstanding, it has a fair amount of power, and great utility in Twave and Foul Play. It can recover, which is amazing for a wall, has the always great ability Trace, and can set up Trick Room. It is hindered by Knock Off, but just look at Chansey! Porygon2 absolutely needs to move up.
• Snorlax for D rank. What exactly does it do? Okay, it has Blissey level special bulk, with a real offensive presence. It's less conventional than other special walls and tanks, and for a good reason; it has no recovery. There frankly is little reason to use Snorlax, and I find D rank to be much more appropriate.
• Tangrowth absolutely needs to go back to C+ rank, even B-. Its physical bulk is outstanding, and with an assault vest, its special bulk is so too. It has reliable recovery in the form of Regenerator, hits exceptionally hard with Leaf Storm, and has great coverage with its remaining moves. It is also able to cripple many Pokemon with Knock Off. It has a worse typing than Amoonguss, but has much more bulk and hits much harder. It is an exceptional offensive pivot, and C rank is not where it belongs.
• Toxicroak to unranked. It's far to passive to actual fit on rain teams, its supposed niche. Unlike other pokemon that belong in D rank, Toxicroak actually a) doesn't have to be ranked, and b) doesn't have a niche, at all.
• Hawlucha is frail, not powerful, and thus is walled by almost everything and OHKO'd by almost everything. I don't honestly see what's keeping it from D rank.C- Rank
Cresselia
Gorebyss
Hawlucha
Jirachi
Ludicolo
Slowking
Zoroark
• Zoroark for unranked. It has a tiny tiny tiny niche, but its flaws are too much to warrant a ranking.
This is fine, except for the grammar :PD Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who have a very small niche in the current OU metagame, and have very noticeable flaws that make them more trouble then their worth the majority of the time.
Cloyster
Cofagrigus
Empoleon
Exploud
Meloetta
Mr. Mime
Also, Froslass for whatever reason was removed from the list. It was always C- rank, and I think it fits in there perfectly. It still has an analysis, and I have no idea why it was removed. If it really needs discussion, fine, but I think the best decision would be to just put it back where it was.
Its also frail as fuck, weak and has an awful typing. Bisharp is just so much better in every way, having better typing, more power, stronger priority etc. It might be slower but weaviles speed isnt that good as it can hardly ohko even offensive mons.
Blissey does have some notable advantages. While chansey is the superior option in most cases...
1.) Trick weakness. Sure, both Chansey and Blissey are just as screwed if a Rotom-W tricks a scarf onto them. However, in the ongoing match vs. a trickscarf Rotom-W, after it has tricked (let's say for leftovers), Blissey makes a perfect counter, whereas Chansey worries about losing its eviolite, leaving it as a weaker version of Bliss.
2.) Like people have mentioned, Flamethrower allows Blissey to beat some pokemon that would either set up on/trap chansey: Aegislash, Ferro, and Scizor, among others. Additionally, it allows chansey to play around other Pokemon that chansey can't touch (Gengar) for instance, by flamethrowering away its Substitutes and then switching out on a predicted disable
3.) Blissey "doesn't" take residual damage from sandstorm/hail, giving it a slight niche there (mostly gone as of this gen though). The passive recovery can also be decently useful.
4.) While it's not really seen nor used anymore, Blissey can still run a somewhat effective set with Calm Mind/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Softboiled to reliably beat other calm mind sweepers like CM Lando-I, Volca, and sub/cm lati@s; however, this set really hasn't been viable since third gen, so that's kind of a niche reason.
5.) Can beat shedinja. That's totally a legit reason. /sarcasm
Blissey has some niche value, although it is, for the most part, outclassed by Chansey.
Oh, it's also better against things that carry Knock Off as a support move (mainly thinking Tentacruel here, who's less seen than ever, but eh).
Hawlucha should drop to C- rank. As a sweeper, Hawlucha struggles in OU since priority is everywhere, especially Flying priority. It finds trouble setting up at times and is walled by the most common Pokemon in the tier, Aegislash. It also only has one chance to sweep with Unburden, making it's use situational.
That leaves wallbreaking and utlity for it. It can be a decent wallbreaker with Choice Band or Mold Breaker/Limber Swords Dance, but this is done better by Lucario and Staraptor. Hawlucha, however, does have a great speed advantage and can take on Thundurus-T with Limber. It can also scout with U-turn like Staraptor.
Hawlucha makes a surprisingly good utilitymon with Encore, Baton Pass, Roost, Taunt and U-turn among others. It may be compared to Scolipede as a Baton Passer, but Hawlucha distinguishes itself with Encore, Taunt, and Hone Claws. It also makes a very good lead thanks to Taunt and U-turn.
Hawlucha has enough of a niche to remain above D, but the metagame is just too harsh for it at the moment to find greater success.
EDIT: I apparently have trouble seeing dashes.
That leaves wallbreaking and utlity for it. It can be a decent wallbreaker with Choice Band or Mold Breaker/Limber Swords Dance, but this is done better by Lucario and Staraptor. Hawlucha, however, does have a great speed advantage and can take on Thundurus-T with Limber. It can also scout with U-turn like Staraptor.
Hawlucha makes a surprisingly good utilitymon with Encore, Baton Pass, Roost, Taunt and U-turn among others. It may be compared to Scolipede as a Baton Passer, but Hawlucha distinguishes itself with Encore, Taunt, and Hone Claws. It also makes a very good lead thanks to Taunt and U-turn.
Hawlucha has enough of a niche to remain above D, but the metagame is just too harsh for it at the moment to find greater success.
EDIT: I apparently have trouble seeing dashes.
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First:
How do you mean Hydregion can't beat any fairies? It can make a very effective Sylveon/Florges Lure (Florges because that's what I used it for when playing UU) with Draco Meteor/Flamethrower/U-Turn/Iron Tail. While not the most reliable move, I chose Iron Tail over Iron head for the ability to OHKO Florges 100% of the time with only 100 attack evs (again, in UU); you could probably opt for Iron Head > Iron Tail and then run 252 SAtk / 252 Spe and get the reliable 2HKO as well. No idea about calcs on Sylveon.
Second:
Completely agree about Zoroark. Zoro should be unranked. Sure, he can be useful, but honestly he's replaced Charizard as the pokemon that signifies an eight year old's team.
Okay guys stop with the Blissey and Chansey arguments please .-. It's already been discussed enough and brought back countless of times for no reason, and it always ends up accomplishing nothing but derailing the thread. Blissey has very minute niches over Chansey which keeps it from being completely eclipsed, but these niches are so small that I really don't think it should move up any higher than it is, because 90% of the time these few attributes such as the ability to have a slight offensive presence a lot of times isn't worth giving up for Chansey's amazing mixed bulk. So yeah neither of them are moving up or down.
Look out for an update coming soon today or tomorrow. I'll try to clean out some of the lower ranks a bit more because they're still really fucked up.
It's already C- man.
Look out for an update coming soon today or tomorrow. I'll try to clean out some of the lower ranks a bit more because they're still really fucked up.
It's already C- man.
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what the fuck lol.
weavile's 120 is only slightly lower than bisharp's 125. I would not call weavile weak.
weavile actually has better special bulk than bisharp (70/85 vs 65/70). bisharp's physical bulk isn't even that great
while sucker punch is stronger than ice shard, weavile has the benefit of having more reliable priority and having priority that is se against more than two types
"weaviles speed isnt that good". Okay that is just flat out wrong lol
Its not just about the attack stat you know? Knock off aside Weavile has to use low BP moves such as Ice Shard, Low Kick and to an lesser extent Ice Punch while Bisharps attacks all have 80 BP. Bisharp has more physical bulk, Weavile more special bulk, but Weavile is SR weak and has tons of weaknesses because of its typing. Bisharp can usually take a hit or 2, Weavile cant.
Didnt say that, if you have to quote my posts, then do it right and at least quote the full sentence and not just half of it. I am just saying that beeing fast isnt that useful if you fail to ohko and cant even take the slightest hits.
@ Gary nobodys talking about moving Blissey up, its about whether or not it should be ranked at all.
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