I don`t really think they are counters as they both cannot switch in on BB and need to be at a good amount of health when they come to Revenge Kill as a +1 Sucker Punch does over 60% to both. Keeping both fighters as high is problematic due to their reliance onto Life Orb, meaning a player needs to keep it`s Ape/Luke at full if they want a tool to stop Honchkrow's sweep. (Also, Adamant Luke's Espeed does 65% tops to Krow.)
-
Check out the relaunch of our general collection, with classic designs and new ones by our very own Pissog!
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
XY UU Viability Ranking Thread
- Thread starter Limitless
- Start date
- Status
the prevalence of subtox rachi means honch now actually has a common user of fast sub to deal with. lucario and infernape also provide alternatives in terms of strong priority AND check it pretty well.
this wasn't the case before, which is why it was so good. honch is A- at best now. I'd even say B+.
this wasn't the case before, which is why it was so good. honch is A- at best now. I'd even say B+.
With Zam, Blissey, Nape in the tier, things got really bad for dear Roserade. Roserade hates all (bar maybe Luke) of the drops in some way. Zam revenge kills it, Blissey walls it badly and it ain't affected much by Sleep Powder. Nape checks it while Goodra walls it while absorbing Sleep Powder (given Sap Sipper). Although Roserade is still pretty good as an offensive Spiker as well as a bulky water killer. I say drop it to A-/B+
the spikes set is one of the best switchins to blissey in the entire game js
but yeah ape and luke are big threats to rose. shaymin is still about the same given it checks luke and beats blissey with leech seed. but it wasn't exactly super good before the drops either, just good.
either way limitless should have picked other pokemon to discuss because tornadus makes them both huge liabilities :o
but yeah ape and luke are big threats to rose. shaymin is still about the same given it checks luke and beats blissey with leech seed. but it wasn't exactly super good before the drops either, just good.
either way limitless should have picked other pokemon to discuss because tornadus makes them both huge liabilities :o
we don't take into account the suspects, since they're likely broken nub.
I think what koko was trying to say was that the presence of Tornadus-T might skew people's experiences of said mons in the metagame (moreso considering previous experiences accounted for Staraptor and Volcarona/Mega Zam metas o.O).
Actually nvm, koko would never use a word such as skew. But you get what I mean.
Actually nvm, koko would never use a word such as skew. But you get what I mean.
yeah t-t makes both of them shit but ignoring that they're pretty much the same as before
i'm not even sure i'd put roserade one sublevel below just because spikes are actually very good atm still and roserade has plenty of opportunities to set them up, especially v blissey. I don't think it's necessarily complete set-up bait for ape/luc because they still do have to be scared of sludge bomb / hp fire
i'm not even sure i'd put roserade one sublevel below just because spikes are actually very good atm still and roserade has plenty of opportunities to set them up, especially v blissey. I don't think it's necessarily complete set-up bait for ape/luc because they still do have to be scared of sludge bomb / hp fire
Apologies for a one-liner: Also Sleep Powder, because none of you have mentioned it yet.
EDIT: Fuck it. Sleep Powder keeps Roserade (slightly) more relevant because none of the Pokemon that dropped like to take it. It forces them to be more careful about how they switch in, until some jackass starts running Lum Berry Tornadus-T.
EDIT: Fuck it. Sleep Powder keeps Roserade (slightly) more relevant because none of the Pokemon that dropped like to take it. It forces them to be more careful about how they switch in, until some jackass starts running Lum Berry Tornadus-T.
View attachment 16031Shaymin to drop to A- Shaymin didn't really like the drops. With new faster offensive Pokemon that can revenge kill it, such as Alakazam and nape , and a new switch in to blissey, which hurt it. But, Shaymin is still extraordinary powerful, with no safe switch ins, if it gets the sp.defence drop on blissey, bye bye, if it predicts the psychic against crobat, bye bye. Its main problem is against offence, where things like scarf darm, mega aero and victini hang around, which can all easily revenge kill shaymin. Shaymins only drawback is its slightly sub par speed, apart from that it is an amazing mon. Also its sub seed set can go head to head with blissey, a common switch in.
View attachment 16032Roserade to stay in A, but most likely Drop to A- The only reason this thing should have a chance at staying at A, while shaymin can't is that it takes advantage over blissey. The sleep powder toxic spikes/spikes takes advantage of blissey's ability, by putting it to sleep, staking spikes and when they switch out, not that blissey wakes up due to natural cure reoserade can just put something to sleep and stack more hazards. It still has speed problems, as well as bulk issues, and now that florges is used less, roserade is less needed to take it on. Still, roserade is a great offencive spiker and could still have a shot at A, though A- is a lot more likely.
Also nominating pilloswine for C+, because it is very anti-meta, legit.
View attachment 16032Roserade to stay in A, but most likely Drop to A- The only reason this thing should have a chance at staying at A, while shaymin can't is that it takes advantage over blissey. The sleep powder toxic spikes/spikes takes advantage of blissey's ability, by putting it to sleep, staking spikes and when they switch out, not that blissey wakes up due to natural cure reoserade can just put something to sleep and stack more hazards. It still has speed problems, as well as bulk issues, and now that florges is used less, roserade is less needed to take it on. Still, roserade is a great offencive spiker and could still have a shot at A, though A- is a lot more likely.
Also nominating pilloswine for C+, because it is very anti-meta, legit.
Last edited:
Shamin is honestly borderline A+/S with volcarona gone imo, min can be somewhat niche but its niche is frankly absurdly powerful. I've been known to just slap specs on it, toss it on heavy offense where it wallbreaks literally everything and allows your endgame win condition to wear down its own checks and counters. For example SD Lucario is normally hard stopped by sableye, however with min as a reliable swapin and HW support later on luke can simply SD to + whatever and beat its way through sableye, and then pick up a HW off shamin on the obvious special wall for a clean sweep later on with contemptuous ease. Additionally min is calable os simply blastign through those special walls for the big man hydra himself, luring crobat and torn T for NP nape, and forcing out and eventually wearing down bulky waters and grounds for MAero. Scarf darm and band tini also love the little hogmin as shamin is a wonderful safey net for them in terms of mingame synergy and a lategame heal. Basicly min just provides all the support the biggest threats in UU need with 1 mon slot while still existing as a threat in its own right. Oh it also provides a nifty nuke for balanced teams with LO 3 attacks rest and a wonderful companion to hazards with its notorious subseed set.
Finally Shamin requires virtually no prediction. Quad resist? click HP ice or psychic, otherwise its just click flare until your win con has beat up its counters to the point min can simply click HW for the win. Alternalyely LO min simply clicks the apropriate SE move with minimal prediction and rests off damage, while subseed luke kills crobat and then simply goes click sub, click seed or kill to rack up all the hazard damage.
Shamin is not a mon you can jsut slap on any team, it does have defined niches, however within those niches the level of both offensive and defensive pressure it can generate is enough to create "unloseable" matchups against wide swaths of the metagame.
Also ya, I haven't even seen a rade in....god knows how long. She's a cool lass and can do really dirty thigns with hazard support, status, and raw POWAH but Rade generally just gives up free turns without having enough of an impact to really justify her outside of B+ due to a heavy need for prediction and a crushing 4mss.
Finally Shamin requires virtually no prediction. Quad resist? click HP ice or psychic, otherwise its just click flare until your win con has beat up its counters to the point min can simply click HW for the win. Alternalyely LO min simply clicks the apropriate SE move with minimal prediction and rests off damage, while subseed luke kills crobat and then simply goes click sub, click seed or kill to rack up all the hazard damage.
Shamin is not a mon you can jsut slap on any team, it does have defined niches, however within those niches the level of both offensive and defensive pressure it can generate is enough to create "unloseable" matchups against wide swaths of the metagame.
Also ya, I haven't even seen a rade in....god knows how long. She's a cool lass and can do really dirty thigns with hazard support, status, and raw POWAH but Rade generally just gives up free turns without having enough of an impact to really justify her outside of B+ due to a heavy need for prediction and a crushing 4mss.
Last edited:
Roserade imo deserve B+/A- rank coming from a roserade fan, the new june threats are all scary to roserade which nearly all of them checks roserade and even past threats like victini, mega aerodactyl, etc can check roserade well however roserade still not been replaced due to she is possibly the best offensive spiker and the main reason roserade is relevant still is thank to sleep powder which can there is hardly any grass types in the tier and can take on defensive water types, fairy pokemon and its move sludge bomb or leaf storm both deliver a 2HKO to alot of pokemon in the uu tier without life orb or modest if a stealth rock is up but with lo its packs even more punch and can 2hko certain pokemon better.
Note: This is my first time deciding what pokemon that should be ranked in a certain rank, which I hopefully explained well.
Note: This is my first time deciding what pokemon that should be ranked in a certain rank, which I hopefully explained well.
Ok, lets start this by saying that Shaymin is not an S rank pokemon by any means, its not a world beater and it doesn't define the metagame in any way, shape, or form. If anything I'd say that its life has gotten harder since the drops with Nape running around in the S rank, and Blissey+Goodra providing good switch ins to Shaymin, never mind that there are still the old checks like Crobat, M-Aero, specially defensive walls, and every fire type in the tier. Most teams are carrying at least a check to Shaymin without really planning on it because the answers to Shaymin are pretty widely used and there's several for every notable playstyle.
With all of these solid answers to Shaymin I'd hardly call her a pokemon that creates "'unloseable' matchups against wide swaths of the metagame" right now, it was A rank before with good reason, and now that life's gotten harder for the little flowery hedgehog I'd hardly say that she deserves a jump in the rankings.
Also your logic about Luc breaking through Sableye is seriously flawed if I'm understanding it right. If Luc SD's in Sableye's face then you're just asking to get burnt and have your SD get canceled, and while Shaymin is a decent switch in to eat the burn it needs to be said that for Luc to sweep Sableye needs to be outright gone, not just weakened because even if you try and boost your way through the burn LO recoil+burn damage means a quickly dead Luc, it just can't "beat its way through Sableye" and not get seriously crippled.
My vote is to move Shaymin to A-, its still a good pokemon and a great answer to bulky water types, its just that the metagame has simply gotten a little bit meaner to her with the drops.
Healing wish, you do know what the fuck this does right?
And yes, shamin has no "good" swapins sans AV torn-T who is still worn down and removed even with regenerator. and fucking uselessdra the great setup fodder.
I mean really: (I chose specs because LO changes up its moves so there's no need to show off seed flare kills)
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 122-144 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 133-157 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 161-190 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 378-445 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 127-150 (42 - 49.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Note that sans blissy there are all okho's with the appropriate coverage move.
In terms of the whopping 3 quad resists that sit around UU...
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 294-346 (94.5 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 212-252 (61.6 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Shamin gets more or less free swapins on the bulky waters, grounds, and electrics that litter the tier in addition to it hefty 100/100/100 bulk and then nothing actually wants to swap in.
Its a wallbreaker that lets shit like luke break through their own hard counters that also happens to pack mew bulk and gets a fuckload of free turns.
TL:DR: Shamins a world beater, Luke can be at 1 fuckign HP after beating sableye and still sweep if you click 1 button.
And yes, shamin has no "good" swapins sans AV torn-T who is still worn down and removed even with regenerator. and fucking uselessdra the great setup fodder.
I mean really: (I chose specs because LO changes up its moves so there's no need to show off seed flare kills)
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Darmanitan: 216-254 (61.5 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Victini: 122-144 (35.7 - 42.2%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 133-157 (40.9 - 48.3%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tornadus: 147-174 (49.1 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Infernape: 161-190 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 378-445 (52.9 - 62.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Seed Flare vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heracross: 127-150 (42 - 49.6%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Note that sans blissy there are all okho's with the appropriate coverage move.
In terms of the whopping 3 quad resists that sit around UU...
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Crobat: 294-346 (94.5 - 111.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Roserade: 236-278 (90.4 - 106.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Shaymin Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Escavalier: 212-252 (61.6 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Shamin gets more or less free swapins on the bulky waters, grounds, and electrics that litter the tier in addition to it hefty 100/100/100 bulk and then nothing actually wants to swap in.
Its a wallbreaker that lets shit like luke break through their own hard counters that also happens to pack mew bulk and gets a fuckload of free turns.
TL:DR: Shamins a world beater, Luke can be at 1 fuckign HP after beating sableye and still sweep if you click 1 button.
First off chill out, its pokemon man, no need to curse and get wild over this. We get it, you like Shaymin, but it doesn't change the fact that its not an A+ or S class worldbeater.
Yes I know what healing wish does, but you still don't want to get your Lucario burnt in the first place if you know what you're doing when there's far better ways to get past Sableye, its just stupid to throw Lucario at Sableye in the first place. Even suggesting that takes a lot from your credibility which is already suspect because you're calling Shaymin a worldbeater.
Shaymin is outclassed as the wallbreaker you're making it out to be btw, what with LO Hydreigon and MixedNape becoming more prominent with the drops since they can actually beat Blissey on their own. Imo you shouldn't use specs Shaymin in the first place because there's better pokemon that outclass it at its job you're trying to present as a "worldbeater".
Lurk more man, get caught up on the metagame, because you've got an easily revenged killed pokemon that requires support to work, and that alone is exactly why Shaymin is not an A+ or S rank pokemon.
A few flaws in your logic
A: Getting a lucario burned if you can HW it off later in order to beat through your opponents luke counter is 100% good play, at the worst you have a +4 burned luke and they're looking to feed sableye or half their team to it in order to "nullify" the threat. Yes it breaks conventional logic but it does so to win the game quickly and efficiently. There's really no faster way to remove an offensive mons best check or soft counter than to simply sacrifice the offensive mon to break the check or soft counter. You want to stay in, they want to stay in because hell, its their counter to x threat and they don't need it for anything else.
B: Shamin muscles through bliss on its own, though yes it does so at the cost of a good chunk of seed flare PP, still, at the worst bliss runs off and you kill/maim another mon, it has like 3 reliable counters in the tier. Things like hydra and ape require prediction (though yes these mons are amazing). Min requires click flare. Click coverage for quad resist. Furthermore ape has absurdly low sustain and is laughable weak unboosted while also beign frail as all hell. Hydra has bulk, sustain in roost...and is setup fodder to some very nasty mons the second it clicks draco. Both Nape and hydra are also prone to giving up free turns despite their raw power. Hydra has 4mss with LO, nape gives chandy and victini all the free turns ever, both are also revenged by anything that revenges shamin.
C: 100/100/100 bulk on a grass type in a tier where bulky grounds waters and some electrics are common even on offensive teams gives min an abundance of swapin opportunities. Yes its easily RKed though admittedly that's applicable to every single non scarfed attacker in the tier not named tornadus-T or alakazam, however anything not a dedicated hard counter or special wall gets shredded swapping in and special walls are often forced out by that 37% DIE chance.
D: Saying an offensive support set requires support is um, wut? I'm arguing shamin for A+/borderline S based on its functionality as a stand alone offensive hose that can assist other mons in "forcing" a sweep overload HO style while still maintaining a varied offensive presence and even freeing up spots for defensive pivots on HO. HWMin requires you at the most to run the huge sacrifice of fire and flying resists, last I checked things like rotom-H and MAmpheros see use on heavy offense thanks to their ability to soak those types and maintain momentum. Hell min even comes in on their weaknesses and proceeds to click abuse button.
TL:DR: Running an effective 2 copies of your strongest sweeper along with an under prepared for sustainable wallbreaker that offers excellent synergy with the best offensive threats in the tier on any offensive team is pretty close to, though possibly not quite S tier if you can fit it all into 1 mon slot. If your doubtful give it a try.
A: Getting a lucario burned if you can HW it off later in order to beat through your opponents luke counter is 100% good play, at the worst you have a +4 burned luke and they're looking to feed sableye or half their team to it in order to "nullify" the threat. Yes it breaks conventional logic but it does so to win the game quickly and efficiently. There's really no faster way to remove an offensive mons best check or soft counter than to simply sacrifice the offensive mon to break the check or soft counter. You want to stay in, they want to stay in because hell, its their counter to x threat and they don't need it for anything else.
B: Shamin muscles through bliss on its own, though yes it does so at the cost of a good chunk of seed flare PP, still, at the worst bliss runs off and you kill/maim another mon, it has like 3 reliable counters in the tier. Things like hydra and ape require prediction (though yes these mons are amazing). Min requires click flare. Click coverage for quad resist. Furthermore ape has absurdly low sustain and is laughable weak unboosted while also beign frail as all hell. Hydra has bulk, sustain in roost...and is setup fodder to some very nasty mons the second it clicks draco. Both Nape and hydra are also prone to giving up free turns despite their raw power. Hydra has 4mss with LO, nape gives chandy and victini all the free turns ever, both are also revenged by anything that revenges shamin.
C: 100/100/100 bulk on a grass type in a tier where bulky grounds waters and some electrics are common even on offensive teams gives min an abundance of swapin opportunities. Yes its easily RKed though admittedly that's applicable to every single non scarfed attacker in the tier not named tornadus-T or alakazam, however anything not a dedicated hard counter or special wall gets shredded swapping in and special walls are often forced out by that 37% DIE chance.
D: Saying an offensive support set requires support is um, wut? I'm arguing shamin for A+/borderline S based on its functionality as a stand alone offensive hose that can assist other mons in "forcing" a sweep overload HO style while still maintaining a varied offensive presence and even freeing up spots for defensive pivots on HO. HWMin requires you at the most to run the huge sacrifice of fire and flying resists, last I checked things like rotom-H and MAmpheros see use on heavy offense thanks to their ability to soak those types and maintain momentum. Hell min even comes in on their weaknesses and proceeds to click abuse button.
TL:DR: Running an effective 2 copies of your strongest sweeper along with an under prepared for sustainable wallbreaker that offers excellent synergy with the best offensive threats in the tier on any offensive team is pretty close to, though possibly not quite S tier if you can fit it all into 1 mon slot. If your doubtful give it a try.
I literally can't even understand you man, I just can't. No, getting your Luc burnt is not a good idea when there are better ways to get through Sableye. Its just ridiculously stupid to have this as your Sableye plan since there are other pokemon that can take care of Sableye for Luc.
As for your specs Shaymin calcs you brought up before, you've given a seriously skewed situation that plays perfectly into specs Shaymin's hands. You're coming in on something you force out and hitting your opponent's switch in with rocks up and perfect prediction, and on the Blissey calc you even threw on the -2 drop which is a 34% chance when factoring in the possibility to miss Seed Flare. The fact is lot of these pokes can come in without rocks up if they have to and then KO, or come in and revenge kill easily.
Hey, here's another possibility, what if you mispredict? Mispredictions can hurt like absolute hell on choice locked pokes, what if you try and Psychic a Crobat switch in and your opponent decides to let their Suicune faint so they can revenge it afterwards? Have fun running away for a bit because you just got forced out by exactly what you want to KO. By the way you just lost all of that momentum that your set supposedly gives you by being forced out, have fun losing all the momentum that HO needs.
I'm not going to restate my arguments again, Shaymin is good for taking out bulky water types, and is a decent grass pokemon overall. Its LO and subseed sets are good at what they do, but suggesting that Shaymin should be S-ranked because of a subpar set is wrong. You're point is ridiculous in the first place and the evidence you've given to support it is literally the perfect situation for the set you've suggested, further taking away from your piss-poor credibility. Saying a Shaymin set works well in perfect conditions just doesn't justify it being put on the same level as top pokemon like Infernape, Blissey, Alakazam, and Slowbro, and if you can't understand that then you're not prepared to suggest viability rankings.
Just saying, the Lucario example makes perfect sense and perhaps it reflects on your ability to understand him and not his ability to explain that you don't get it. If you're using Lucario and your opponent has a Sableye, then it can potentially break through, and be crippled afterwards, but Shaymin takes that aspect away, and sure, you could run something to specifically take Sableye out, but there's value in being able to lure it with a Pokemon that they think they're safe from afterwards and not having to spend an extra team slot on a Sableye counter, because while Sableye would switch out of Infernape, it would stay in on Lucario.
I don't qualify click flare or click coverage for painfuly obvious quad resist to be "perfect" prediction really. In the case of mispredicts shamins bulk gives a lot of room for error. As for the whole "omg perfect situation" its stupidly easy to create that situation. As for the set being "sub par"...give it a try.
@ Link, good man that swamp
@ Link, good man that swamp
Well Roserade must absolutely hate the month June right now. because there's a few things that keep it at a B Rank in my opinion. Firstly revenge killing Roserade has become even easier with Zam/Nape running lose in the tier. The monkey and the spoon wielding monster have blazing fast speed compared to Roserade so she hasn't even got the option of outspeeding then putting a slower check or counter to sleep. she just gets Obliterated, yes the plant has a nice toy to switch into called Blissey as it can sleep it and then sleep powder on the switch because of natural cure, but rade really really got hurt by the drops and with Florges being less used it's hard finding a reason to use her at all in my opinion. Now I've never been someone to praise rose as something godly but she won't be reaching A-Rank anytime soon.
P.S: Btw i'm still not really sure why you'd used Lucario to take on sableye especially when there are other options. i'd suggest another option but I've not played UU in a bit due to personal stuff so i can't remember what's used commonly to combat sableye.
Hope my contribution was worthy to the Viability Ranking :D it's good to be back on Smogon
P.S: Btw i'm still not really sure why you'd used Lucario to take on sableye especially when there are other options. i'd suggest another option but I've not played UU in a bit due to personal stuff so i can't remember what's used commonly to combat sableye.
Hope my contribution was worthy to the Viability Ranking :D it's good to be back on Smogon
what keeps shaymin from being a+ or s is not its lack of damage or coverage. it obviously has those, that's why it's used.
the problem with shaymin is mostly in the unreliability that stems from having a low PP main move that can miss and has a decent chance to double damage. Against defensive teams, shaymin can't shine as a stallbreaker as it's supposed to because its pp is slowly whittled down, and a shaymin without seed flare prevents no reasonable threat. There are just far too many specially bulky things with protect/substitute in the metagame. having no method to break through or set up on blissey other than leech seed also hurts shaymin compared to other special wallbreakers - hydreigon can u-turn out, the nidos can set up hazards, roserade can set up hazards. shaymin's only hope of breaking through specially dedicated walls lies in an unreliable 34% hit+drop chance move with tragically low pp.
also min has far more switch-ins than you're making out. even if you are running specs and you severely chunk the victini that's coming in, it's still a victini - you still can't outspeed and 2hko it, and it can easily kill you. by contrast, the switch-ins to hydra can't always immediately offensively threaten him back due to dual coverage rather than reliance on one move. the safest switchins to hydra are dedicated special walls (who risk being u-turned and superpowered) and bulky steel types like empoleon who can set up on it if it mispredicts but can't hurt it all too much. comparatively, shaymin is exceedingly one-dimensional and susceptible to far more offensive mons due to its shitty typing.
the problem with shaymin is mostly in the unreliability that stems from having a low PP main move that can miss and has a decent chance to double damage. Against defensive teams, shaymin can't shine as a stallbreaker as it's supposed to because its pp is slowly whittled down, and a shaymin without seed flare prevents no reasonable threat. There are just far too many specially bulky things with protect/substitute in the metagame. having no method to break through or set up on blissey other than leech seed also hurts shaymin compared to other special wallbreakers - hydreigon can u-turn out, the nidos can set up hazards, roserade can set up hazards. shaymin's only hope of breaking through specially dedicated walls lies in an unreliable 34% hit+drop chance move with tragically low pp.
also min has far more switch-ins than you're making out. even if you are running specs and you severely chunk the victini that's coming in, it's still a victini - you still can't outspeed and 2hko it, and it can easily kill you. by contrast, the switch-ins to hydra can't always immediately offensively threaten him back due to dual coverage rather than reliance on one move. the safest switchins to hydra are dedicated special walls (who risk being u-turned and superpowered) and bulky steel types like empoleon who can set up on it if it mispredicts but can't hurt it all too much. comparatively, shaymin is exceedingly one-dimensional and susceptible to far more offensive mons due to its shitty typing.
The main issue with umbreon now is that its typing doesn't really compliment the standard special wall of the tier, blissey. Besides that, it's still as good as it has always been, with the best defensive move for a wall ever in STAB Foul Play, and great mixed bulk.
It also has the very underrated combo of wish+baton pass, which allows for scouting, gaining momentum and letting you heal pokemon that you wouldnt otherwise be able to get in safely. Also handy with the Gothorita spam going on rn, who even needs shed shell.
It also has the very underrated combo of wish+baton pass, which allows for scouting, gaining momentum and letting you heal pokemon that you wouldnt otherwise be able to get in safely. Also handy with the Gothorita spam going on rn, who even needs shed shell.
As an avid user of Suicune, I honestly think it should stay where it is. It's as potent of a win condition as ever once it's counters are beaten, and most of the drops don't really affect it's ability to do this in the tier for better or for worse. The only drop that gives it trouble is Blissey, since it looses to Blissey 1 on 1, but considering how many great fighting types are in UU you don't have to go out of your to way to counter her.
Suicune beats blissey 1vs1, not the other way around. In fact suicune heavily benefited from the drops since infernape and blissey makes grass and electric types less viable, not to mention the recent ban of magnezone, manectric and vaporeon going ou and hydreigon returning (setup fodder) while toxicroak usage has dramatically lowered. I'd say suicune should go up to A+.
- Status